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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2017, 10:23:27 am »
+1

Implementing -1 action as a State
There are several things to keep in mind when you want a card to have -1 action, and I think having a State (6 copies, 1 per player) makes things work almost perfectly:

Quote
Exhaustion - State
When you next have actions left, return this and -1 action.

You need to explain that you must have actions left for it to work, and you don't want to take up lots of card space on it. But even better, the absence of Villages isn't an issue, because you just lose the action whenever you can.

So the changes to my cards would be:

Quote
Colliery - Action, $2+ cost
+ $2
Discard a card.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do this again.
-
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Take an action token per $1 overpaid.
After resolving this, you can use an action token (same manner as CotR) to remove Exhaustion.

Quote
Dairy - action, $5 cost
+2 cards
+1 buy
+ $2

Take Exhaustion.
This is a bit beastly when Throned.

Quote
Innovator - Action, $4 cost
+ $2
Play up to 3 Treasures from your hand. You may buy a card immediately; if you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to gain the bought card to your hand.
Perhaps the 'bigger' Innovator could work like this. You can acquire immediate power, but it's only useable if you have 2 actions left afterward.

Quote
Refinery - Action, $5 cost
Choose one: trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card; or look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
Quote
Glassworks - Action, $5 cost
Choose one: draw up to 8 cards in hand, then discard down to 5; or reveal your hand, and if there are…
2 or more Treasures, +1 buy;
2 or more Actions, +2 actions;
2 or more Victories, +$2.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
Quote
Textile Mill - Action, $5 cost
Choose one: +3 cards; or look at the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any number, then put the rest back with any number from your hand in any order.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
The choice element still works nicely on these.

Quote
Revolters - Action attack duration, $4 cost
Each other player gets -1 action at the start of their Buy Phase next turn, but not less than 0. If they have 0 left, they gain a Curse; if there are no Curses left, a Copper.
At the start of your next turn, take an action token.
This one can't change. I don't think it's possible to make a -1 action Attack without making it hit at the Buy Phase (and Exhaustion always hits the Action Phase) because of a certain Enchantress. Such an Attack played with her every turn would lock everyone else out of playing any Actions altogether.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2017, 10:19:41 am »
+1

I've overhauled the OP again with updates, and I've done some mock-ups. Here are the changes explained:

Quote
Exhaustion - State
When you next have unused actions and it's your Action Phase, return this and -1 action.
Finalising what Exhaustion actually does. It only hits at the Action Phase.


Advancing Village doesn't have the option to discard on play, for simplicity and balance. It also can't be instantly played if it enters hand during your Action Phase, as making terminal draw non-terminal is crazy. It also calls for a little bit more play skill.


No changes to Blueprints, a neat enough trasher for the set. There's been a curious Actions and Treasures sub-theme developing, so it does fit.


No mechanical change to Canal, this hasn't been imbalanced yet though I've still to put it with Cornucopia.


Colliery needed to change when it took on Exhaustion. You can choose to carry Exhaustion over to your next turn to wait and see if you draw any Actions to play, and if you do you can spend an action token then to play them. If not, you keep your tokens. With the overpay it had, you could get too big a store of them, and that meant too many early Provinces.

Here's a new idea, making Colliery the top of a split pile. I had the idea of this Treasure, since action tokens could make it work well. Tried it, but it was too much like a cheap early Platinum as a plain kingdom card. The fix I came to was this:

Quote
New Element - $5 cost.
When you play this, it's worth $5 -$1 per card in your hand, down to $0.
-
You may only buy this if you have a Colliery in play. When you buy this, return the Colliery to the Supply.
It seems to gel together with Colliery fine, I just wonder if the bottom part couldn't be better.


Cameo takes on the name Diary, it seemed better thematically. No change otherwise, it works well.


Entrepreneur is great, I see no need to change it.


Quote
Glassworks - Action, $5 cost.
Draw up to 8 cards in hand, then discard down to 5.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to reveal your hand and gain a card costing exactly $1 per type (Action, attack etc.) in your hand.
I did rename Steelworks to Glassworks, and with the Exhaustion change it needed a rebalance. You could do the draw and discard and make it non-terminal if you then revealed 2 Action cards, that as well as the possibility of +coins and buys. Too much power. Now you have to do the sift first, and the second part works with types in a different, hopefully interesting way.


Hawker makes the 0 or 2 cards buying work across the turn, because of Black Market and Innovator below.


Quote
Innovator - Action, $5 cost.
Choose one: + $2, play up to 3 Treasures from your hand, and you may buy a card, gaining it onto your deck; or +2 cards.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
Dairy has gone for now, because I noticed how similar it was to Innovator (and hence I felt better about renaming Cameo to Diary, would be silly to have both names). This gets exactly the same vanilla with Exhaustion, though the buy is a little different. Perhaps now there's too much going on and it's too complex a card?


As Locusts are now a hex, I renamed the card Pigeon. No other change.


I renamed Refinery Potteries. It's prettier and feels a bit more Dominion-y. It's the same, complex like Innovator.


Quote
Revolters - Action Attack Duration, $4 cost.
Until your next turn, if each other player has 1 or fewer unused actions at the start of their Buy Phase, they gain a Curse; or if there are no Curses, a Copper.
At the start of your next turn, take an action token.
A wording change for Revolters, including giving out Coppers when the Curses run out. Diadem isn't attacked by this anymore.


Quote
Steelworks - Action Attack, $5 cost.
Gain a card costing up to $4; or if you have used 3 or more actions this turn it may cost $5.
Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of their deck; if one costs the same as the card you gained (they choose one if there are 2 or more), they may trash it or gain a Curse.
Steelworks's attack looks deeper into the other players' deck, 3 cards that are put back afterwards, and gives the option to gain a Curse instead of trash the card, because Knight attacks aren't popular.


No changes to Textile Mill. It gives a lot of control over your cards, but Exhaustion is a significant setback.


Tutor's discard and draw now applies just to cards neither Action nor Treasure, not 'Victory or none of these types'. It's shorter, simpler, and saves potential tracking issues like with played then discarded Nobles.


No change to Wastelands yet. In some games it's added a very nice rewarding challenge, trying to keep your deck small enough by the game end. But sometimes someone concentrating on them will 'seal themselves in' and make themselves unable to do any more until the game ends. The other players need only wait until they get more points before ending, a pretty boring wait.


As cards have left, I thought of new ones and given them a little testing.


Quote
Night Shift - Night Duration, $5 cost.
Take Exhaustion; if you do, and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.
Thinking of Exhaustion has really helped me think of simpler cards that use them. How about a really good one that takes it for the start of your next turn? From there, this just followed on. It has such a natural feel to it, right down to its theme.


Quote
Parade - Victory, <8> cost.
Worth 8VP - VP equal to the difference in the number of Actions and Treasures in your deck.
-
You may only buy this if you have the same number of Actions and Treasures in play.
This one accentuates the Actions and Treasures thing in this set. There are Action-heavy engine strategies, and there's big money, but this encourages a balance of the two.

And finally, a big group that makes even more of Actions and Treasures, and tries out a bunch of different mechanics:


Quote
Components - Action Traveller, $3 cost
Return this and another Components from your hand to the Supply. If you do return 2 Components, gain a Prototype.
-
When you gain this, gain a Silver onto your deck.
A Traveller that upgrades Treasure Map style. Though you may choose to buy this just for a top-decked Silver at the same cost.

Quote
Prototype - Action Traveller, $5* cost.
Take two action tokens.
Trash a Treasure from your hand. Gain a Treasure costing up to $3 more to your hand.
You may discard this. If you don't, then at Clean-up exchange this for a Patent, Spinning Mule or Steam Engine.
(This is not in the Supply.)
A card that discards itself on play, so it can be played several times in the same turn. This mechanic can run into several issues, but Prototype should be safe from most of them. It has no issues with tracking, and it's impossible to make infinite turns with this as it's a non-Supply card.
It's only a 3 stage Traveller as Components are hard enough to upgrade. But the final step is a choice of three.
Quote
Patent - Action, $6* cost.
Choose one: +1 card, +1 action, +1 buy or + $1, then this becomes the card on your Patent mat.
-
When you first gain this, put an Action card from the Supply that isn't on another player's Patent mat onto your Patent mat.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Yes, Patent has moved. It created too much first-buyer advantage as a Kingdom card. Here, it can afford to go for any card cost as the timing and difficulty to get 1 of them balances it out, and the Patent mat banning can be fair as if there's a good target for it, probably one of the alternative upgrades will be good too, Steam Engine. So a Patent race won't leave the loser hopeless.

Quote
Spinning Mule - Action, $6* cost.
+1 card
+1 action

While this is in play, after you play a Treasure, +1 card.
(This is not in the Supply.)
The Treasures upgrade. It started as a permanent duration but you could get it so soon in some games that it dominated. You get the cards after resolving for no other reason than working better with New Element above.

Quote
Steam Engine - Action, $6* cost.
While this is in play, the next 3 times you gain a card take an action token, and when you spend an action token, instead of +1 action you may play an Action card from your hand twice.
(This is not in the Supply.)
And here's Magnate, moved, renamed and buffed a little. When it was a kingdom card, really you just wanted one of them. I already had Spinning Mule as an idea I was testing, and when I noticed how it upgraded Treasures similarly to this with Actions, this whole group happened.

And that's the lot. Wanderers I'll do later. (Is this still tl;dr?)
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2017, 06:53:53 am »
+2

Aquila, you have very interesting and original ideas. Such shall be graced with my coveted commentaries!

The action tokens and Exhaustion state are cool concepts and I can see them work out in general, even though Exhaustion is a pretty harsh restriction in engines but shouldn't matter too much in the early game where most cards you play are treasures.

I'll comment on your cards individually and also point out some wording issues.

Advancing Village
: This introduces the action token and its benefits perfectly. The card might have some accountability issues with its reaction but you made them rare enough and that's fine for a fan card. I find it hard to assess its power. Doesn't it suck when you draw it during your action phase? It's just a cantrip when you play it, then. And in an engine, where most cards are drawn during your action phase (as opposed to only the 5 cards in your starting hand) and you rarely have any spare actions, this should be hardly better than Village. I see it on the same power level as Ghost Town. What makes this cost $4?

Blueprints: Seems like a decent card. It needs a "(rounded up)" or "(rounded down)" clause.

Canal: This is a great Bridge variant that can't be used to drive piles in a megaturn, cleverly implemented, powerful but limited. I like it.

Colliery/New Element: These two have a cute synergy but I fell like it's not enough to make New Element good. It's even weaker than Poor House with its very harsh penalty for any cards in hand (no just treasures). How many games did you play with it where you found, "wow, this is a power card that needs to cost $5"?
Besides, you can improve the wording of both cards. Colliery should say "you may take it to play this again", otherwise it's unclear what "do" refers to.
New Element could go with a sleek "You can only gain this if you have a Colliery in play, and when you do, return it to the Supply." It also doesn't need "When you play this" in its instructions. For reference, look at Fool's Gold, or any other kingdom treasure for that matter; they don't need that clause to say what they're worth.

Diary: Doesn't seem strong to me but I probably can't accurately asses how much an action token it worth. Design-wise it's very elegant, though.

Entrepreneur: I like how this card becomes like five times more powerful when its pile is empty, but the case where the player who wins the split dominates the game can be mitigated by the other players. Another clever idea.

Glassworks: Why does it care about card types? Since it has nothing to do with your set's theme, this seems like an unnecessary limitation to its gaining power. Its draw is not even stronger than Embassy and taking Exhaustion is a harsh penalty. To compensate for that, Glassworks could care for differently named cards instead.

Hawker: If an opponent only has 1 buy (which is most of the early game, sometimes the whole game) you can lock them out of the game with an egine that plays a Hawker every turn. That would be very bad. Also there's an edge case with Villa: Your opponent has Hawker in play. You buy a Villa, return to your action phase but then don't play the Villa and end your turn so you can't buy another card. What happens? Do you have to return the Villa? That would make no sense. The problem with this kind of card that wants to restrict players to certain actions is that in Dominion there's usually another option that's somehow ambiguous and allows them to exploit a loop-hole.

Innovator: A very potent and flexible engine enabler and component! I find it difficult to fully wrap my head around it so I'll need to play with it to find out how to best use it.

Night Shift: I like this card a lot! Zero actions is an adequate drawback for an extra turn. You were bold to put this card out here so shortly prior to Nocturne's release. I can imagine there being a similar card in it. There might even be a State that does the exact same thing as Exhaustion.

Parade: This rewards a "good stuff deck" probably more than any other card. My intuition says 8 VP per card (whose cost you can spread over two turns) is enough to forego building a treasure-less deck. But you need a lot of buying power to keep up with the engine that reliably gains 1-2 Provinces each turn, if there's one available.

Pigeon: Eh, doesn't thrill me particularly. From an thematic perspective, I would rather have the card named "Pigeons" and show a swarm of those gray-black city dwellers, than the charming bird in the current artwork.

Potteries: Seems decent but is it really that strong? I would have said it's one of the weaker $5-cards.

Revolters: I have several problems with this. First, its wording is ambiguous. "If each player has..." sounds like a condition referring to all other players counted together. Instead it should simply say "if another player has". Second, it's a curser for mere $4, and a Village on your next turn. On top of that, it gives Coppers once the Curses are out. There's only one official card that does that, and probably for good reason; it's the strongest attack in Dominion and it costs $5. Revolters seems broken to me. I advise you reword it as follows:
Until your next turn, if another player has used up their actions at the start of their Buy Phase, they gain a Curse. At the start of your next turn, take an action token.
This is simpler, unambiguous, and more balanced.

Steelworks: A gainer that gets very powerful in engines and has a brutal attack as well. This is vastly overpowered and my initial suggestion is to drop the cursing part. I would also give your opponents less options to make the card less wordy:
Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of their deck, trashes one costing the same as the card you gained and puts the rest back in any order.

Textile Mill: It's a fine Smithy variant regarding its power level. But I'm afraid there will be way too much looking and sorting going on (I hated that in my first games with Secret Chamber) so it will become obnoxious.

Tutor: This is probably your most balanced card. A premium engine enabler for $3 whose slowness should balance it somewhat.

Wastelands: This card's theme is very cleverly implemented. I like how it takes late greening to another level. Still, 15 cards total might be a bit harsh. OTOH, 5VP for $5 is a lot and it takes some skill to estimate if going for Wastelands is gonna work out in a game, as well as to make sure you can take the weight of a high green card densitiy in your deck towards the end. If you're going for Wastelands, watch out for Mountebank, Greed, Embassy, Messenger, Governor etc.

Now I feel quite exhausted myself. Gonna look at the Travellers another day.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2017, 01:26:54 pm »
0

Colliery seems a lot like like the card Donald has described Diadem had started out as.

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2017, 05:26:12 pm »
+1

Wow, what great feedback. Thank you!

Advancing Village: This introduces the action token and its benefits perfectly. The card might have some accountability issues with its reaction but you made them rare enough and that's fine for a fan card. I find it hard to assess its power. Doesn't it suck when you draw it during your action phase? It's just a cantrip when you play it, then. And in an engine, where most cards are drawn during your action phase (as opposed to only the 5 cards in your starting hand) and you rarely have any spare actions, this should be hardly better than Village. I see it on the same power level as Ghost Town. What makes this cost $4?
It started out being able to react all the time, and it just looked very scary with terminal draw, especially seeing how other Villages are drawn dead. I suppose that is its forte over the others, so I may carry on with it, but I just fear it's too automatic. Like with all of these cards, concentrated playtesting will tell.

Blueprints: Seems like a decent card. It needs a "(rounded up)" or "(rounded down)" clause.
Just adding (round down) to what I have is in-keeping with the 2E Bishop, I'll go with that.

Colliery/New Element: These two have a cute synergy but I fell like it's not enough to make New Element good. It's even weaker than Poor House with its very harsh penalty for any cards in hand (no just treasures). How many games did you play with it where you found, "wow, this is a power card that needs to cost $5"?
Besides, you can improve the wording of both cards. Colliery should say "you may take it to play this again", otherwise it's unclear what "do" refers to.
New Element could go with a sleek "You can only gain this if you have a Colliery in play, and when you do, return it to the Supply." It also doesn't need "When you play this" in its instructions. For reference, look at Fool's Gold, or any other kingdom treasure for that matter; they don't need that clause to say what they're worth.
Being a Treasure, New Element can be played after all the other Treasures have been (except Fortune and sometimes Bank). It's nearly always yielded at least $3; I've hardly ever trashed with a deck going for this pile, and the Coppers really help. But maybe this is a disadvantage in itself, and it merits a cheaper cost. Perhaps you should be able to keep your Colliery.
I like the wording changes, except for 'playing' Colliery again. You could end up playing one of them several times over, especially with Champion. So it needs one of these:
'Discard a card for +$2. If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to play this again'
+$2. Discard a card. If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to discard a card and + $2.
Basically, the latter lets you get the coins even if your hand is empty, and the first doesn't.
Though Asper's comment is interesting. I've always seen this as changing a card in your hand into a Silver, and if it would be too similar to Diadem I would choose the second of my suggestions so it can only work twice in one play.

Glassworks: Why does it care about card types? Since it has nothing to do with your set's theme, this seems like an unnecessary limitation to its gaining power. Its draw is not even stronger than Embassy and taking Exhaustion is a harsh penalty. To compensate for that, Glassworks could care for differently named cards instead.
Truth be told it's yet to be properly tested in this form, but it certainly needed a change. Indeed looking for types isn't in-keeping with this set. I chose it because it holds potential to gain expensive cards when put in the right kingdom, which looked appealing. But yes, how often would you want to go Exhausted to gain a ~$5 when you only have a 5-card hand? Maybe it isn't the best second part.
Edit: Or could it start non-terminal then become terminal if you gain something?

Hawker: If an opponent only has 1 buy (which is most of the early game, sometimes the whole game) you can lock them out of the game with an egine that plays a Hawker every turn. That would be very bad. Also there's an edge case with Villa: Your opponent has Hawker in play. You buy a Villa, return to your action phase but then don't play the Villa and end your turn so you can't buy another card. What happens? Do you have to return the Villa? That would make no sense. The problem with this kind of card that wants to restrict players to certain actions is that in Dominion there's usually another option that's somehow ambiguous and allows them to exploit a loop-hole.
Yes, all good points. Perhaps the best fix could be something like this?
Until your next turn, when another player buys their first card during their turn, they gain a card costing up to $2.

Pigeon: Eh, doesn't thrill me particularly. From an thematic perspective, I would rather have the card named "Pigeons" and show a swarm of those gray-black city dwellers, than the charming bird in the current artwork.
Cantrip trashers don't feel that thrilling, I agree. The Supply trashing was the fun bit, some interesting interactions with some piles. It's emptying out other cards as this pile empties itself, and if you don't like the speed of that just make yours hit Silvers. It just needed a benefit to the buyer and well the trash just seemed to fit best. Yeah, I guess a monarch could buy a flock of pigeons for himself, rather than one carrier pigeon.

Potteries: Seems decent but is it really that strong? I would have said it's one of the weaker $5-cards.
I noted that Donald tried a card that got anything from the discard, and found it too strong to do. I think it might have been on a card doing Militia as well? When it worked well, like getting a Gold, I kinda felt what Donald meant, but on a terminal $5 the effect should be balanced.

Revolters: I have several problems with this. First, its wording is ambiguous. "If each player has..." sounds like a condition referring to all other players counted together. Instead it should simply say "if another player has". Second, it's a curser for mere $4, and a Village on your next turn. On top of that, it gives Coppers once the Curses are out. There's only one official card that does that, and probably for good reason; it's the strongest attack in Dominion and it costs $5. Revolters seems broken to me. I advise you reword it as follows:
Until your next turn, if another player has used up their actions at the start of their Buy Phase, they gain a Curse. At the start of your next turn, take an action token.
This is simpler, unambiguous, and more balanced.
All sound words here, great wording, though I'd like it to hit with 1 action left if someone just plays pure money (a newer player may be scared into it). But would that bump it up to 5 or make it too plain strong? This is almost an Attack Village after all.

Steelworks: A gainer that gets very powerful in engines and has a brutal attack as well. This is vastly overpowered and my initial suggestion is to drop the cursing part. I would also give your opponents less options to make the card less wordy:
Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of their deck, trashes one costing the same as the card you gained and puts the rest back in any order.
Yes, your outside perspective has helped me see sanity here. The cursing option was really shooting myself in the foot.

Textile Mill: It's a fine Smithy variant regarding its power level. But I'm afraid there will be way too much looking and sorting going on (I hated that in my first games with Secret Chamber) so it will become obnoxious.
True. Card control isn't for everyone. I suppose by and large this isn't an easy set to play.

Food for thought here.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 05:43:45 pm by Aquila »
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2017, 12:52:26 pm »
0

Nice cards, would play, 10/10.

A few comments:

Quote
Canal - Action, $5 cost.
+1 buy
This turn, cards you haven't yet gained a copy of cost $2 less, but not less than $0.
This can be Throned for great cost reduction, but the once-per-name clause limits the abuse. You may want to consider "<separating horizontal line> While this is in play, cards [...]", in the style of Highway. You did mention Bridge, so probably you're already aware of the abuse potential.

Quote
New Element - $5 cost.
When you play this, it's worth $5 -$1 per card in your hand, down to $0.
-
You may only buy this if you have a Colliery in play. When you buy this, return the Colliery to the Supply.
If I play two Collieries, what do I return to the Supply? Suggestions "When you buy this, return a Colliery from play to the Supply." Alternatively, "When you buy this, return all Collieries from play to the Supply." — then you can only buy one per turn (edge case Villa). Maybe it should say "all your Collieries"—though the only card you can play outside of your own turn is Caravan Guard, IINM.

Quote
Glassworks - Action, $5 cost.
Draw up to 8 cards in hand, then discard down to 5.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to reveal your hand and gain a card costing exactly $1 per type (Action, attack etc.) in your hand.
If I have Village and Militia, does 'Action' count once or twice? That is, do I gain a $2- or $3-cost card? There's probably not room on the card for any clarifying text.

The same wording is unambiguous on Courtier because no single card has the same type twice.

Quote
Night Shift - Night Duration, $5 cost.
Take Exhaustion; if you do, and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.
If you already have Exhaustion, do you take an extra turn? I think not.

Quote
Prototype - Action Traveller, $5* cost.
Take two action tokens.
Trash a Treasure from your hand. Gain a Treasure costing up to $3 more to your hand.
You may discard this. If you don't, then at Clean-up exchange this for a Patent, Spinning Mule or Steam Engine.
(This is not in the Supply.)
If you draw your deck, including two of these and a treasure, and you have your +1 card token on this, you can trash the Copper, Silver and Gold piles. That seems a bit explosive; but on the other hand, this scenario isn't something you achieve on shuffles one through four, I guess. I would encourage playtesting with this scenario in mind to evaluate how broken it is.

(I didn't read the wall-of-text cards.)
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2017, 04:50:29 am »
0

Thanks jonas.

Quote
Canal - Action, $5 cost.
+1 buy
This turn, cards you haven't yet gained a copy of cost $2 less, but not less than $0.
This can be Throned for great cost reduction, but the once-per-name clause limits the abuse. You may want to consider "<separating horizontal line> While this is in play, cards [...]", in the style of Highway. You did mention Bridge, so probably you're already aware of the abuse potential.
Throning it is fine. The worst abuse you could do is with different alt VP cards.
... Which at first seems safe, until I remember the Castles. I'm thinking it would take sufficiently long setup to save this from being broken, and instead a good combo?

Quote
New Element - $5 cost.
When you play this, it's worth $5 -$1 per card in your hand, down to $0.
-
You may only buy this if you have a Colliery in play. When you buy this, return the Colliery to the Supply.
If I play two Collieries, what do I return to the Supply? Suggestions "When you buy this, return a Colliery from play to the Supply." Alternatively, "When you buy this, return all Collieries from play to the Supply." — then you can only buy one per turn (edge case Villa). Maybe it should say "all your Collieries"—though the only card you can play outside of your own turn is Caravan Guard, IINM.
Oh yeah, that's true. I may end up changing the bottom bit anyway.

Quote
Glassworks - Action, $5 cost.
Draw up to 8 cards in hand, then discard down to 5.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to reveal your hand and gain a card costing exactly $1 per type (Action, attack etc.) in your hand.
If I have Village and Militia, does 'Action' count once or twice? That is, do I gain a $2- or $3-cost card? There's probably not room on the card for any clarifying text.

The same wording is unambiguous on Courtier because no single card has the same type twice.
I meant to say 'different type', but it never happened. Oops.

Quote
Night Shift - Night Duration, $5 cost.
Take Exhaustion; if you do, and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.
If you already have Exhaustion, do you take an extra turn? I think not.
The intention is not, 'if you do' I hope makes that clear. Every card should check you take Exhaustion before giving bonuses, so they're never free.

Quote
Prototype - Action Traveller, $5* cost.
Take two action tokens.
Trash a Treasure from your hand. Gain a Treasure costing up to $3 more to your hand.
You may discard this. If you don't, then at Clean-up exchange this for a Patent, Spinning Mule or Steam Engine.
(This is not in the Supply.)
If you draw your deck, including two of these and a treasure, and you have your +1 card token on this, you can trash the Copper, Silver and Gold piles. That seems a bit explosive; but on the other hand, this scenario isn't something you achieve on shuffles one through four, I guess. I would encourage playtesting with this scenario in mind to evaluate how broken it is.
Prototype isn't a Supply card, so it should never see any token on it.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2017, 02:36:04 pm »
0

Thanks jonas.
You're more than welcome :)

Throning [Canal] is fine [but what about Castles?]
Even if you KC a Canal you only have 4 buys, so it's not bonkers broken, merely very, very good—but if you can KC it once you can probably do it thrice. But that's a 3-card combo (Canal, Castles, TR/KC/RC/&C) which is merely very, very good, so nothing to worry about I'd say.

I might be taking a minority position, but I don't think strategic gravity wells* are a bad things per se. I think what makes many strategic gravity wells unappealing is that they make games formulaic. I don't think this would happen with Canal.

(*) cards or combos which you basically have to build your deck around when they show up, and such that you evaluate all other cards only in relation to the key card/combo—Rebuild, Page, Cultist, Hermit/Market Square and (sometimes) Tournament are examples.

My conclusion: I successfully brought to your attention something you were already aware of ;)

I meant to say 'different type' [on Glassworks], but it never happened. Oops.
'Glad I could help :) and I think 'different type' is an elegant solution.

[The intention is that Night Shift doesn't give you an extra turn if you already have Exhaustion. I hope 'if you do' makes that clear.]
I think all other cards that take Exhaustion say "if you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it and <do conditional effect>". I think consistency is good—deviation raises the question "why?", and the only answer I can come up with that I like is "all the consistent phrasings are awful", which I think is not true. I think the following is fine: "If you don't have Exhaustion, take it; if you did and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one."

The thing that pushes the wording in a clunky direction is that's it's tricky to elegantly convey the parenthesis structure of "if condition 1 then ((do thing 1) and (if condition 2 then do thing 2))".

Alternatively, you could say "if (condition 1 and condition 2) then (do thing 1 and do thing 2)"—i.e. "if the previous turn wasn't yours and you don't have Exhaustion, take Exhaustion and take an extra turn after this one".

Note that this way, if you want to play Night Shift just to take Exhaustion but for no "other" benefit, you can only do so if the last turn wasn't yours—that is, condition 2 also has to be true for you to do thing 1. That seems about as strategically relevant as the addition of "you may" to Throne Room, probably even less.

It could matter if you could be possessed in such a way that the turn prior to your possessed turn was yours, but I think that's impossible.

Prototype isn't a Supply card, so it should never see any token on it.
Derp.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2017, 11:42:12 am »
0

The Wanderers, revamped and mocked up.

The randomiser card:

Quote
Shuffle the Wanderers pile. Keep them face down except for the top one. During the Action Phase a player may use an action to play the top Wanderer, moving it to their play area then returning it to the bottom at the end of their turn.
They join events and landmarks, and IRL you could shuffle this randomiser into their deck to decide when they're used, or include them freely by choice. (This card is portrait mainly so the instructions are easier to read).
To explain the concept: the Wanderers are a set of cards that cycle as they're used, each one giving something extra you can do in your action phase. I thought mechanically this could open up a lot of new possibilities, those that you couldn't do on a kingdom Action card because playing them every turn or more than once in a turn wouldn't work. Also, each card affects every player to reduce swinginess.

I came up with several different ideas that could work, but saw that a set of them should follow a mechanical theme. This makes them a bit easier to understand, softens swinginess further and helps form synergies between each card. This set is about card movement.

The result: a pile that has very varied impact on each game depending on the timing and order of each card, and adds the challenge of players considering everybody when deciding to go for one, whether or not they will get a better deal than anyone else.

The cards, 10 of them:

Quote
Each player sets any number of cards aside from their hand, draws that many, then puts the set aside cards onto their deck in any order.
Swap cards in your hand with the top of your deck. It would get a bit redundant done more than once in a turn, but it's fine on a Wanderer. Opens up a few tricks.


Quote
Each player discards down to 3 cards in hand, and gains a copy of a non-Victory card they discarded.
Everyone must decide whether to get a better turn now and take some junk, or make this turn weaker and gain something good.


Quote
Each player looks at the top card of their deck and may discard it, then draws a card from the player to their right's deck.
A new one not yet tested. Card movement affecting everyone pointed me towards a Masquerade variant.


Quote
Each player draws up to 6 cards in hand, and looks through their discard pile and puts a card from it into their hand.
Potentially a great boost. But who will get the most benefit?


Quote
Each player trashes up to 2 cards from their hand.
Timing and what each other player has are both crucial factors to this one.


Quote
+1 action. Each player puts their deck into their discard pile.
Looks a bit boring, but there are times when this is golden, especially with some interactions in this set.


Quote
Put 2 cards from your hand onto your deck. Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand does the same.
Almost a pure attack, but sometimes this will be helpful to you.


Quote
While this is in play, after cards are discarded or trashed from a player's hand, they are returned to their hand. (Keep until next turn).
Very likely a Wanderer will adopt a duration effect, hence their orange colour (though as it turns out, there's only one here). This mostly prevents your hand getting smaller, good if you're discarding, bad if you're trashing junk. 'After' cards are discarded or trashed for Militia effects, so you aren't endlessly discarding and putting back. The user gets it for two turns; the times this could be an unfair advantage I hope are rare enough...?


Quote
Move this onto any Supply pile. Cards that enter or leave the pile are immediately trashed. A player may play this even if it leaves the Wanderers pile. (This is never returned.)

When this card is used, it leaves the Wanderers pile, so its timing will be the only thing that varies (as well as making each other Wanderer more frequent). Having groped with the idea of blocking Supply piles for ages I've come to this, making players use actions rather than buys to get around the effect. Moving things to the trash hopefully saves any confusion and is clean with existing mechanics, and well it's card movement.


Quote
+1 action. Each player takes an action token. Reveal the Wanderer second from top.
Turn the next card down over and keep it visible. Perhaps those next two Wanderers make a neat combo you want to use. If that's so, you've got an action token to make it happen.

(For those who read the Wanderers before, some cards left because they didn't fit the card movement theme. Another, which discarded cards that entered your hand, left because it was a pure attack, and more often than not it was a stop card.)

And there they are. I'll get to the amendments suggested above later.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2017, 06:17:17 pm »
+1

Revolution is a pretty well-made set in my opinion. I'll just single out a few cards that I felt I could say something relevant about:

I like Diary. Comparing it to Festival, which has a +buy but can be drawn dead and doesn't have its action staying around, it seems more than decent. I feel that often the topdecking will be useful instead of a downside. A very elegant design.

Advancing Village seems weird. Often the only way to play it as a Village will be when drawing it during cleanup, which is usually equal to it being in your hand at the start of your turn. After that it's a cantrip basically. I think you could have had a similar functionality much more easily, like:
"+1 Card
Take an Action token. If you have no Action cards other than Advancing Village in play, you may play an Action card from your hand."

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2018, 08:54:12 am »
+2

Big update
I went off doing this, then came back to it with a fresh look. A look at how the cards combine together as a set, as well as individual improvements. I saw fit to make a lot of changes. The OP has had another overhaul with them and improvements to presentation.

If you're interested, a list of the changes:


Exhaustion - changed to Exhausted to fit the tense of the other States. You 'immediately' return it to make its priority to your next action clearer.


Advancing Village - down to $3 cost. This distinguishes it more as a Village you can open with.
Quote
Advancing Village seems weird. Often the only way to play it as a Village will be when drawing it during cleanup, which is usually equal to it being in your hand at the start of your turn. After that it's a cantrip basically. I think you could have had a similar functionality much more easily, like:
"+1 Card
Take an Action token. If you have no Action cards other than Advancing Village in play, you may play an Action card from your hand."
This is certainly easier to get your head around at first. I kept it the same as it can do what this does and more, in particular with interactions in this set.


Blueprints - changed the $ you get to a flat $2, and I've tried to make it more exciting by letting you play it straight away when you buy it by taking Exhausted. Yes you're playing an Action in the Buy phase, but I don't think there's anything broken in that with this card. If nothing else it justifies the +buy on it.


Colliery - removed New Element. Split piles are not what this set is about, and Colliery isn't so bad as a pile of its own. It also repeats the instructions when you take Exhausted; it looks clumsy, but the interaction with Champion and other things that count 'playing' actions is foolproof.


Components - has +1 action so it's easier to return them if they fail to connect in good time.
   Prototype - So that the text can be bigger, I give the type 'Machine' to all of its upgrades. I can also make another Machine if it needs to be there.
   Spinning Mule - is now a Treasure itself.
   Steam Engine - gets action tokens on discarding cards, up to 3, and has a wording change that ensures Exhausted takes priority if you spend a token with 0 actions left.

Glassworks is an outtake, as neither types nor differently named cards are a theme the set wants to focus on.

Hawker is an outtake, it just doesn't work as an Action card.

Innovator is an outtake for now, it's too hard to get your head around.


Night Shift - up to $6 cost, because you're happy to pay $6 for it and it feels strong enough.


Parade - no longer costs debt as nothing else in the set does, and changed the bottom to get around gaining it; you trash it if you don't meet the criteria.

Pigeon is an outtake for similar reasons to New Element, to lessen the Supply interaction going on in the set. It's still there, but it's subtle.


Potteries - is no longer get a choice or Exhaust for both. You trash a card, then Exhaust to make it a big Remodel. If the new card is cheap enough, it goes to hand.


Revolters - as suggested, it no longer gives out Coppers after Curses, and it only hits with 0 actions left, not 1 as well.


Steelworks - costs $4, and is no longer an Attack; instead, you can trash it at your Night phase to take an action token for every card you gained in the turn. You can do this whether you play it as an Action or a Night card.


Textile Mill - it made the mistake of draw and sort together, a combo that takes forever to play. Its now a Smithy you can double play by taking Exhausted. Because this is short text and because it fits, it also has the overpay for action tokens that Colliery used to have.


Tutor - corrected a typo.


Wastelands - instead of triggering 5 VP with few cards in the deck, it triggers with few non-Victories in the deck.

Onto some Wanderers changes:

Circus Troupe draws first, then puts cards back. Much easier.

Royal Visit is an outtake; it was the only Duration effect in the set and didn't belong.
In its place, a new one:

Quote
Botanist - discard up to 3 cards, then draw that many. Each other player discards then draws the same number of cards.
A Cellar where the user chooses how many cards everyone changes.

And the other new ones:

Quote
Barometer - Action Duration - $4 cost.
Now and at the start of your next turn: name a type (Action, Attack, etc). Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Put the cards with the named type back in any order and discard the rest.
A now and next turn sifter that lines up cards of the same type for your next draw. What you choose when will depend on your current situation, something that changes often in this set.


Quote
Diversion - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+ $3
You may put your deck into your discard pile.
When you gain this or play it, each other player takes Diverted.
Quote
Diverted - State
Non-Victory cards you buy are gained onto this. After you shuffle your deck, if there are any cards on this, discard them and return this.
As one Attack, Steelworks, left, another needs to take its place. This one uses a State and delays the opponents' buys from entering their deck until a shuffle later.
Looking at the forum now, I admit this is rather similar to principles other fan cards follow, especially Gazbag's freezing mechanic.


Quote
Local Art - Treasure, $5 cost.
$2
When you play this, if you have any unused actions, you may play the top Wanderer.
-
Setup: include the Wanderers.
A Treasure that can play Wanderers, provided you saved an action from your Action phase. This makes it different each play, and can make each Wanderer be better or worse. It's certainly risky and needs a fair bit of testing.


Quote
Purist - Action Treasure, $4 cost.
If it's your Action phase, +4 actions.
If it's your Buy phase, this is worth $1, and if you haven't played any non-Treasures this turn, +1 card.
It makes big either the Action phase or a pure Buy phase.


Quote
Taskmaster - Action, $4 cost.
+1 card
+1 action

When you play an Action from your hand, you may first turn an unturned Taskmaster you have in play sideways and take Exhausted. If you do both, play the Action twice.
Basically a Royal Carriage that looks 'forward' to Actions played later rather than 'back' to one just played, delaying the action it uses for then. Nothing else does this turning thing, but I didn't know how else to implement one use per card.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2018, 02:58:44 pm »
0

Aquila, you wrote that Advanced Village as is was harder to wrap your head around but could do tricks which my suggested version can't. At the risk of sounding like I tried to push my wordings on you (which I'm probably doing, so feel free to ignore me), I think that if you change my suuggestion to check for cards played instead of those in play, multi-card combinations like Farmlands-Rats, Summon on non-drawing cards, Inherited Advanced Villages and your 2 card-drawing Treasures become the only cases where it makes any difference. Or am I wrong here? Main purpose of the change is to eliminate the interaction with Durations and self-trashers like Mining Village, btw.

So my tweaked suggestion would be:

Advanced Village, 2$, Action
+1 Card
Take an Action Token. If you played no cards other than copies of Advanced Village before, +1 Action.

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2018, 01:33:27 pm »
0

I find that you read Advancing Village at first and it puzzles you, but when you get it, it's fairly intuitive. Your version doesn't have that initial puzzle so much Asper. As well as what you include for triggers, my thoughts were that 'outside of your Action phase' also means outside of your turn, so Minion, Council Room, Lost City, Margrave, and within this set the Wanderers.

But I do get why you're suggesting your change now; your pushing has helped so thank you! Ultimately, if this is better played outside of the Action phase, why is it an Action? That Ghost Town is a good comparison, you draw it any time and it can do similar.
I still think this reaction fits well in the set, so I'm thinking the card could be improved by moving the taking an action token to just the reaction and having a different top. Maybe:
Quote
Advancing Village - Action Reaction, $3 cost.
+3 cards
Discard a card.
-
When this enters your hand outside of your Action phase, you may discard it to draw a card and take an action token.

The set could do with some more draw too. But anyway, between this and Asper's suggestion, which is the nicer card?
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2018, 03:18:58 pm »
0

Yo, I like these cards! Here's a few thoughts...

Barometer: This seems pretty weak to me, a terminal stop card that gives no immediate bonus has to be really powerful to be worth getting and I'm not sure this gets there. I think this really wants +1 action or +$1 or something.

Diversion: If I changed how Ice tokens worked to trigger off shuffles I'd probably use a state like this instead of tokens, so that's great. I'm not sure this should be a Chancellor itself though, I get that the idea is that it lets you get past diversions faster but I think it's pretty easy to do that anyway and it kind of just trivialises the attack, maybe?

Local Art: Wanderers come from miles around to see the local art! A lot of the Wanderers seem like they wouldn't be as helpful during the buy phase as they are for your opponents so I'm not sure about that, maybe the Wanderers don't affect other players when played with this? That could be neat. There are few problems I have with certain Wanderers too, maybe I'll get to that later.

Purist: A treasure-action being a purist is strange to me, but I guess he wants a pure deck of either all actions or all treasures or maybe it's a bronze dude or something? +4 actions is a lot of actions, whoo boy! It's probably balanced at $4 - Port basically gives +3 actions and +1 card, but it does add a ton of +actions to the game so it lets you build really big. The treasure part seems much weaker, it's basically a bad Peddler. I guess it means you can open this with Silver and it'll be good on the first shuffle before transitioning into a big Necropolis, I think the top of this is good enough on it's own though.

Taskmaster: Exhausted means this basically does nothing if there's no village right? And it's basically a throne room with +1 card when it works? I don't know, I think it needs a way to always do something. Am I understanding it right?


Err what was up with the wanderers? Oh yeah the courier seems like a bad thing to have in the game, I don't think a single spy effect is enough to make this not miserable for someone often enough. I think it needs either a much bigger search space or to be from hand or be something else. I don't think any current wanderers gain cards, that could be an okay replacement? Fits the messenger like theme too so could keep the same name. I also feel like Warband should be 5 or more cards, randomly taking people down to a 2 card hand occasionally doesn't seem like much fun to me, I can't really see the benefit of it. That's just a small tweak though.
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Chappy7

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2018, 03:30:49 pm »
0

Nothing else does this turning thing, but I didn't know how else to implement one use per card.

I'd just do it like Necromancer does
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2018, 03:57:19 pm »
0

I find that you read Advancing Village at first and it puzzles you, but when you get it, it's fairly intuitive. Your version doesn't have that initial puzzle so much Asper. As well as what you include for triggers, my thoughts were that 'outside of your Action phase' also means outside of your turn, so Minion, Council Room, Lost City, Margrave, and within this set the Wanderers.

Yeah, but all of these will (usually) be identical to the card being in your hand at the start of your turn, except perhaps for Margrave and Minion, so my wording actually does do the same in those cases.

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2018, 07:00:01 pm »
0

More great feedback!

Barometer: This seems pretty weak to me, a terminal stop card that gives no immediate bonus has to be really powerful to be worth getting and I'm not sure this gets there. I think this really wants +1 action or +$1 or something.
Truth be told, this is untested. At first it had +1 action then I thought let's try it non-terminal first. Your first impression may make me change my mind here.

Diversion: If I changed how Ice tokens worked to trigger off shuffles I'd probably use a state like this instead of tokens, so that's great. I'm not sure this should be a Chancellor itself though, I get that the idea is that it lets you get past diversions faster but I think it's pretty easy to do that anyway and it kind of just trivialises the attack, maybe?
I'm with you here. If I can think of another nice way to fast buys that doesn't trivialise this that's what I'll do. Because Diverted makes cards be 'gained onto' it, doing Tracker or Armory wouldn't work as by specifying another gain location you can choose to avoid Diverted...

Local Art: Wanderers come from miles around to see the local art! A lot of the Wanderers seem like they wouldn't be as helpful during the buy phase as they are for your opponents so I'm not sure about that, maybe the Wanderers don't affect other players when played with this? That could be neat. There are few problems I have with certain Wanderers too, maybe I'll get to that later.
You actually commented on the Wanderers. I worried they'd be dismissed as too confusing or random. The main changes that occur are with the handsize ones after you play other Treasures first - Warband and Collector can be played to purely Attack, and Roadshow could be insane. Though to play them just for yourself may be worth exploring.

Purist: A treasure-action being a purist is strange to me, but I guess he wants a pure deck of either all actions or all treasures or maybe it's a bronze dude or something? +4 actions is a lot of actions, whoo boy! It's probably balanced at $4 - Port basically gives +3 actions and +1 card, but it does add a ton of +actions to the game so it lets you build really big. The treasure part seems much weaker, it's basically a bad Peddler. I guess it means you can open this with Silver and it'll be good on the first shuffle before transitioning into a big Necropolis, I think the top of this is good enough on it's own though.
+4 actions is what Exhausted cards like, balanced with no draw. The Treasure part helps reflect the Actions or Treasures sub-theme of the set. Maybe I'm too afraid of the Treasure part drawing a card and could make the setback easier than skipping the whole Action phase.

Taskmaster: Exhausted means this basically does nothing if there's no village right? And it's basically a throne room with +1 card when it works? I don't know, I think it needs a way to always do something. Am I understanding it right?
If you have Exhausted with 0 actions left, it will carry over to next turn and take away the starting action. So it doesn't strictly need a Village, it would make spiky play. A Village will of course help though.
My wording on the update post is probably confusing. It's a cantrip on play, then it waits until a good target is played. It then gets turned to indicate that it gets 'used', and you take Exhausted to Throne the target.
It started as 'while this is in play, when you play an Action you may Exhaust to play it twice', but felt it should be only work once per card.

Nothing else does this turning thing, but I didn't know how else to implement one use per card.

I'd just do it like Necromancer does
This is a funny thing. Face down cards in your play area do not count as 'in play'; you can't trash cards set aside by Haven with Bonfire. So I think this would come to unnecessary complications if not now then easily in the future.

Err what was up with the wanderers? Oh yeah the courier seems like a bad thing to have in the game, I don't think a single spy effect is enough to make this not miserable for someone often enough. I think it needs either a much bigger search space or to be from hand or be something else. I don't think any current wanderers gain cards, that could be an okay replacement? Fits the messenger like theme too so could keep the same name. I also feel like Warband should be 5 or more cards, randomly taking people down to a 2 card hand occasionally doesn't seem like much fun to me, I can't really see the benefit of it. That's just a small tweak though.
Everything here is sensible, Courier I'm thinking should pass from hand, and draw a card first so there's some self bonus and to avoid the 'next such player' thing on Masquerade. Warband probably shouldn't try to go down to 2 cards. Collector can gain cards, as its reason to be played.

[quoting me on Advancing Village]
Yeah, but all of these will (usually) be identical to the card being in your hand at the start of your turn, except perhaps for Margrave and Minion, so my wording actually does do the same in those cases.
Ah yes, this is true. Another difference comes to mind as I read this: played immediately in these situations, the starting action token next turn could let you play an Action after a carried-over Exhausted is returned.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2018, 07:49:10 pm »
+1

Oh right yeah I totally misread Taskmaster, I thought you had to take Exhausted before you played another action but wouldn't be able to unless you had a village but I see now that you take it after you play another action, my bad! Look I do it too Asper!

I also forgot that collector gains a card but I'll forgive myself on that because Wanderers are a little confusing and there could totally be a more standard gaining one too.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2018, 12:16:35 pm »
+4

The more I think about them and play with them, the less I like the Wanderers. They do seem to take away from the game of Dominion, using actions for power from outside the deck. And well as said above, they're weird. So take away the actions they use and make them work automatically, the simplest way being right at the start of the turn, change what they do so that they're simple but effective, then change the theme, and I arrive at this idea: Weather, global effects that change each turn.

Rules
They are a pile of 10 landscape cards which you shuffle before each game, and keep face up. Before each of his turns, the player going first discards the top Weather (just as you discard Boons), and each player gets the effect of the Weather immediately at the start of their next turn (they do not get it for extra turns through Outpost or its variants), before any other 'at the start of your turn' effects. The Weather for next turn is revealed at the same time, so players know what's coming. When the pile is empty, it is reshuffled into a new pile. The last card of the pile is set aside, then discarded when the new deck is made.
Including them in a game would follow the same rules as Shelters, Platinum and Colony; if the first card randomly selected is a Revolution, or the majority of them are Revolutions, include them. (Though of course they're fan cards, and you can use them anyhow.)

So here they are:

Quote
Sunny - +1 card, +1 action
An extra action for a bigger Action phase. +1 card as well as it didn't seem enough of an impact.
Quote
Stormy - take Exhausted
The opposite, -1 action. But if you're already Exhausted from last turn you get nothing.
Quote
Cloudy - +2 cards, put 2 cards from your hand onto your deck
Card movement will always have an effect on your turn. This gets you to plan a bit.
Quote
Windy - discard 2 cards, +2 cards
A Cellar fixed at 2 cards. Could be good, could be bad.
Quote
Rainy - if you have 4 or more cards in your hand, take one and put it anywhere in your deck
1 less card in your hand by Secret-Passaging something.
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Dew - +1 buy, + $1
Buying vanilla.
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Snowy - this turn, cards (everywhere) cost $1 more
And the opposite, sort of.
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Frost - this turn, cards are gained onto your deck
Mostly good, but bad for Victories.
Quote
Fog - +1 card, take Diverted, put a non-Victory card from your hand costing from $3 - $6 onto Diverted (or reveal you can't)
A fairly significant card is removed from your deck for a shuffle, and cards you buy are delayed with it. Could be too swingy, but it's there because it works as a one-off effect.
Quote
Changing - set this and the next two Weathers aside, then discard them. For this turn, each player gets both Weathers in the order they were set aside in
This one basically makes two Weathers appear at once, to make things a bit more different each game. You don't know what's coming, though. There are 10 cards, but with this the pile will run through 8 turns.

My main reason for having landscapes like this is to make the set's play theme about adaptation; action tokens and Exhausted don't just mean engines, they mean flexibility in your Action phase, and adding reasons to adapt your turn makes hopefully interesting use of that flexibility.

Does this work?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 04:09:55 am by Aquila »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2018, 02:37:06 pm »
+1

I really like this.

My first impulse was "blech" because this seemed similar to Boons and Hexes... but this is way better than those, actually.

The fact that the Weather just happens, without having to buy anything, avoids the potential of introducing weak cards the way the Boons did. It's also nice that it happens to everyone, which avoids swinginess. Finally, the fact that you know what's coming introduces strategy instead of just pure randomness. This is what Boons and Hexes should have been.

Nitpicks on the cards themselves:

It's awkward that most of them are adjectives but a few aren't. "Fog" should be "Foggy." I admit that "Dewy" and "Frosty" sound awkward, though.

Frost could maybe be "Dry" instead, since dry weather is something that could be positive or negative, like the effect.

Fog definitely looks obnoxious! Getting deprived of an important card will always be frustrating, and possibly game-deciding.

I like Snowy. It's cool that you found a way to make a cost-increasing effect work without problems with stacking or other things.
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2018, 03:06:19 pm »
0

The fact that the Weather just happens, without having to buy anything, avoids the potential of introducing weak cards the way the Boons did. It's also nice that it happens to everyone, which avoids swinginess. Finally, the fact that you know what's coming introduces strategy instead of just pure randomness. This is what Boons and Hexes should have been.
Totally agree, this is a cool idea that is less random than Boons/Hexes (although the effects of Boons/Hexes are admittedly more elaborate).
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2018, 04:45:32 pm »
+2

These seem pretty sweet! I think they do a much better job of doing the symmetrical effect than Wanderers, because you had to use an action to play Wanderers and could play them in the Action phase you'd only ever use them when you could break the symmetry. I imagine these will have a similar effect on the game to Heirlooms like Goat and Lucky Coin. But whether they speed the game up or slow it down will depend on the order of the weathers.

I'm not sure on a few of these effects though. Cloudy and Windy are pretty similar, I think one of those could be replaced. Stormy is quite swingy early and just kills turns later on so I'm not sure how fun that would be and Foggy seems a bit much, I think it could just give Diverted. Of course because of the nature of these it's not about making them "balanced" like normal cards, it's more about whether the weather is fun.

Also Dew isn't a weather, that's the biggest problem. You could have something like clear or mild or maybe like hail or sleet.
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Chappy7

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2018, 05:50:46 pm »
+1

These are really cool! Well done!

I agree that Fog and Stormy could be too swingy/unfun.  Maybe fog could let you divert a card from your hand or discard pile? That way it's less likely to nab your only Upgrade/Wharf/other important card.

I admit, I came late to this party and haven't thoroughly read through this whole thread, but if I'm understanding right, when stormy comes up neither player can use any actions this turn, correct? (Barring Villa or other shenanigans) I spose that is balanced, but maybe it would be more fun if it didn't make you lose your turn.  I'm guessing you don't want to use the -card token in your expansion, or else that might work.  It could do what Envious does? Idk, I guess I don't have great suggestions, I just think Stormy might not be very fun.

I love Snowy, Rainy and Frost.  Those look like they'd be really interesting to play with
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2018, 06:53:53 am »
0

Yeah, Fog can easily be Foggy, and dew isn't really weather itself, is it? Come to think of it, nor is frost. These can easily be changed.

Certainly both Stormy and Fog(gy) as they are can make things swingy. It's good to have a distinctly bad Weather, one to watch out for and keep in mind. In Revolution, Stormy is just that, and there are enough ways to adapt to it. But sure, in a random game with no Revolutions it may not be the best. Chappy7's suggestion of the -card token is a great one (and indeed a lot of Adventures things work - you could probably make a Weather set to go with the expansion, and you could have exotic weather too), and I'd probably change Stormy to that to make the Weather something players can freely choose to add. Then again, not every kingdom calls for adaptation.

So, Fog. The only reason I made it divert a card at first is because Diverted was worded to let it happen. But now I see that it also means Diverted will definitely be returned after the next shuffle, which suits the flow of the Weather better. So it could just not have a cost range or type limit at all. There should then just be the interest of working around the delayed buys for a time.

Are these sound answers?
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2018, 07:13:36 am »
+1

As worded, Frost has pretty bad antisynergy with junkers, given that all cards are gained onto your deck.
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