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Author Topic: Dominion: Revolution  (Read 7879 times)

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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #100 on: October 22, 2018, 08:37:26 pm »
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About Local Art, what does "when you first gain this on each of your turns" mean? Did you mean "when this is the first gain on your turn" similar to Messenger?
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #101 on: October 22, 2018, 10:12:08 pm »
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Regeneration seems really weak compared to the other Prospects, and Imports just screams, "don't ever play with me," unless you're a total masochist who likes slogs and slow-ass games.
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #102 on: October 23, 2018, 07:27:22 am »
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I like the idea of Advancing Village but like Sauna/Avanto it does too much. If you use some Woodcutter variant as payload it is not hard to imagine a Kingdom in which you literally have to buy no other card but Advancing Village.
Mail Coach is pretty similar to Princess.
Taskmasker is extreme: extremely good when you can Throne out of hand, extremely bad when your discard is empty.
I like Textile Mill a lot.
Dismiss looks too strong at $2. Got two Smithy variants in your hand? Discard one to find your village. What to do with that lousy Copper? Discard it to dig for that Platinum.
I like Local Art, it is extremely unique. Probably very crazy with gainers and Remodelers.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2018, 06:16:14 pm »
+1

So all of Renaissance is now revealed, and it looks like things have turned out nicely! There's a shared Actions and Treasures sub-theme (specifically Actions as Treasures, with Scepter and Capitalism) that helps this set be an extension even better, and the similarity clashes are light; Hideout is kind of an upgraded Tutor, and Patron being a Reaction getting a Coffers is like Trade Circle. There are some mechanical interactions that could be bad though, like with Exhausted and all of the ways to play Actions in the Buy phase, and Colliery (the double $ Action) here too.

A few things I thought of before the reveal though:
About Local Art, what does "when you first gain this on each of your turns" mean? Did you mean "when this is the first gain on your turn" similar to Messenger?

Good point, I meant the first Local Art you gain on your turn, no matter when. Changed.

Regeneration seems really weak compared to the other Prospects, and Imports just screams, "don't ever play with me," unless you're a total masochist who likes slogs and slow-ass games.
Imports certainly is for a niche audience, and that's probably a bad design. Regeneration seemed too strong in the first tests with it; the Coffers is a big bonus to add to the trashing effect, especially with how you want to trash anyway. This pushes its price up, and in so doing weakens the trash potential. So do the Coffers go and make this pure trashing? Is that an effective Prospect? I'm seeing several changes I can make to the Prospects and will get back with them.

I like the idea of Advancing Village but like Sauna/Avanto it does too much. If you use some Woodcutter variant as payload it is not hard to imagine a Kingdom in which you literally have to buy no other card but Advancing Village.
Mail Coach is pretty similar to Princess.
Taskmasker is extreme: extremely good when you can Throne out of hand, extremely bad when your discard is empty.
I like Textile Mill a lot.
Dismiss looks too strong at $2. Got two Smithy variants in your hand? Discard one to find your village. What to do with that lousy Copper? Discard it to dig for that Platinum.
I like Local Art, it is extremely unique. Probably very crazy with gainers and Remodelers.
The point on AV is true, a card that's too independent is not good design. The trash on Industrial Town could go.
The different-cards-only rule helps put Mail Coach in balance, such that it seems OK as a kingdom card. I hope it plays differently enough from Princess in these ways.
Taskmaster is risky, and I'm not entirely sure how to test it for balance.
Dismiss could indeed be $3 by my testing notes. It's probably wishful thinking that it's a $2. You'd need to work for the best situations, yet overall this has more purposeful function than something like Vagrant or indeed Border Guard.
Local Art has some crazy interactions, particularly in this set and Renaissance. Hopefully they're not broken.

Grateful for all your feedback. Next, a change proposal for Furnace:

Quote
When you buy this or play it: trash a card from your hand. If it...
costs $4 or more, +2 Coffers;
is a Treasure, +1 Villager;
isn't a Treasure, you may trash another card from your hand.
This gives the distinguishing I was looking for.

And a new idea that literally extends the Renaissance theme:

Quote
Playwright - Action, $4 cost.
+1 Action
+ $1

Look at the top and bottom cards of your deck. You may trash one of them.
This turn, when you play an Action of which there's a copy in the trash, take the Pen.
Quote
Pen - Artifact
At Clean-up, you may set aside an Action when you discard it from play. If you do, at the start of your next turn, play it.
If a player plays a Playwright then a copy of an Action in the trash, they get to Prince something for next turn. The premise was the Action in trash unlocking an Artifact, not using the word 'play' as often as possible...

Do these work?
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Kudasai

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #104 on: November 07, 2018, 03:14:16 am »
+1

Before I jump into your cards I should preface by saying I've recently caught the Renaissance bug and have fallen in love with simplicity all over again. So a lot of my suggestions will likely be along the lines of "Does it really need this to function?" etc. Also, I'm a bit on the sleepy side as I write this, so hopefully this is coherent.

Playwright - Overall I think this card has a nice, clean package that is easy to follow, but offers a lot of strategic options. I do believe given all it can do that it is a bit too strong. The main issue I see is that it trashes from your deck and gives +$1. The trashing is blind, but it's possible to trash an Estate from your deck and gain a $5 cost if you also have 4 Coppers in hand. This is all in addition to gaining information about your deck and later being able to gain the very powerful Pen Project.

I think if you wanna keep this in the $3-$4 cost range, you should ditch the +$1 and ability to look at the bottom of your deck. The former as a nerf and the latter more to make the card more precise. Simply looking at the top 2 cards of your deck and trashing one of them is a bit weaker and less interesting, but it streamlines the card and may allow players to focus more on how they can use the other Kingdom cards to help get certain Actions into the trash. Removing these two things could probably allow you to drop the price of Playwright down to $3 and the idea of a double Playwright opening sounds quite fun!

Whether you make these changes or not, I think the condition for getting Pen is genius! It really fits well with what Playwright does for you. If Playwright is the only trasher, it completely changes how a player will build their deck. In this scenario you essentially cannot mirror your opponent as you may trash one of your Actions and allow them to get Pen off of it. With other trashers this is less of a risk. Some may say why bother when the risk is quite high to harm yourself and help your opponent? Well, because of how good Pen is! You can't really afford to not contest it.


Also, nice new icon! Very fitting.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 03:17:27 am by Kudasai »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2018, 07:22:28 pm »
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The simpler a card can be, the better ;). Thanks for your feedback on this.

The top I feel should be weak and this be in the $3-$4 range, so I will take the $1 off. Think it was only there out of wanting to include more virtual $ in the set. Looking at the top 2 cards is simpler, but you'd need to add "put them back in any order" as it would be too easy to 'cheat' by accident. So top and bottom is fewer words, and has the same narrow search range I'm looking for, and the extra knowledge is only circumstantially useful...I think? A little different thing achieved anyhow. But going to $3 might just work better for strategies that really need the Pen - and I hope taking the $1 off will be enough.


But I'd like to look at Prospects next. So I thought about them, and the trail went: as big one-offs, what can they safely accomplish? Early game options that aren't completely warping; mega turns (now there's a potential fun zone!); reward skillful timing; or bonuses that scale. There should be a good pool of new and interesting things to do here, and they don't all need to be about timing.

Conscription fits the scaling and mega turn brackets...only if there are other Villagers in the game. For being too dependent, it's probably out. The former ability of Villagers with every Silver was too narrow, and Renaissance is already doing lots of on-gain Villagers. Would something like discard hand for +Villager per card discarded be interesting, or would it tread too much on Acting Troupe's toes?


Exhibit kind of fits into the timing category with its early, middle and late game boosts. It seems sound in practice, with a welcome strategy element; only with top-decking every first gain (on Emblem) as the early boost seating order becomes too much of an issue. So changing it to gain a $4 means once a player uses it for the early effect, he's happier when the Emblem gets passed on.


Manufacture isn't bad as a card needing timing and strategy, but sometimes its best use is purely as Villa and the extra Action, which feels one function too many. With the second variant idea that's taken away (not a problem with Renaissance's playing Actions in the Buy phase); so has gaining the Action and the Province requirement, so it's all about what available Action effect do you need when. Openings become a factor to consider, but is there anything broken that I've overlooked?


Night Shift is, as identified by Holunder earlier, intended to fit in a timing/mega turn sort of slot, something you can prepare for. The opening opportunities detract from this at $0 cost, so for now has been upped to $2. May be too low still.


Prediction was similar to Night Shift, too useful early on. At least, with Components it was. So off with the Chancellor bit so you have to time it when all the good stuff is in your discard.

Ravage was never going to safely work with 3+ players. And I can't be confident in Regeneration even as just trash hand, as it doesn't fit any of the categories.

Takeover is simple and safe, in the timing category.


With Regeneration gone, Stocks can try to cost $0 and give no Buy, so you really sacrifice the rest of your turn more. It kind of dabbles in all of the categories. The re-theme to Catering is because a new idea I have is obviously stocks...


...which is right here:

Nothing original about overpay for Coffers at all, but I believe it fits a Prospect nicely, in the timing and scaling categories. The question is whether it's different enough from Pageant.

And finally this wacky idea:

Imports is out if this replacement works. It fit the timing category, but brought the whole game down to do so. This Shady Deal makes Delayed an option, tries to make it stick around with Curses on it, and its payout is Golds. You get some choice over how big your deal will be. Probably in the early option category, I just hope 3 Golds and Curses isn't too much for an opening $4.

Am I on a good thinking pattern here?
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Kudasai

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #106 on: November 10, 2018, 03:26:49 pm »
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Exhibit/Emblem - Big fan of this one! I think you've got some nice effects for the three stages of the game. I think the early stage effect could use a little attention though.

Early Game - Using it during one of your first 2 turns will likely turn your opening split into a $5/$4 or a $4/$4. This is nothing game breaking as we can already get these effects for free from Baker's setup and the Alms Event. So as is it's probably fine, but I wonder if you could get away with gaining two $4 cost cards?

Mid Game - You get a nice little boost here if your deck relies on a lot of $5+ cards. Seems like it would often be worth the wait.

Late Game - Now if you've been patient the whole game you get a nice little VP bump opportunity. You can essentially get 7VP for $7 (Duchy, Emblem and an Estate gained from Exhibit). This seems nice and balanced, but again if Exhibit gave 2 $4 cost cards you could make it 8VP for $7, which seems like a much more justified reward for being patient. This would work even more nicely with alt-VP costing $4 or less.

I could be completely off on the gaining 2 $4 cost card front, but $4 cost cards generally are tame enough that I don't think it would be an issue. I can see some issues with artificially low cost cards like Tournament though. In a 6 player game they could run out before the 6th player has a chance to gain any. Who designs for 6 player games anyways though!

Really cool concept though!I'll have to take a closer look at the other Prospects another time. Looking forward to it though!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 03:31:51 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2018, 04:42:59 pm »
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Overpay for Coffers has been tried by DXV for Guilds and did not work. I think some ideas about it have flown around here with some penalty like Copper gaining. But as a one-off you cannot easily abuse it and thus don't have to worry so much about balanced so thumbs up for Stocks.
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