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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #100 on: October 22, 2018, 08:37:26 pm »
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About Local Art, what does "when you first gain this on each of your turns" mean? Did you mean "when this is the first gain on your turn" similar to Messenger?
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #101 on: October 22, 2018, 10:12:08 pm »
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Regeneration seems really weak compared to the other Prospects, and Imports just screams, "don't ever play with me," unless you're a total masochist who likes slogs and slow-ass games.
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #102 on: October 23, 2018, 07:27:22 am »
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I like the idea of Advancing Village but like Sauna/Avanto it does too much. If you use some Woodcutter variant as payload it is not hard to imagine a Kingdom in which you literally have to buy no other card but Advancing Village.
Mail Coach is pretty similar to Princess.
Taskmasker is extreme: extremely good when you can Throne out of hand, extremely bad when your discard is empty.
I like Textile Mill a lot.
Dismiss looks too strong at $2. Got two Smithy variants in your hand? Discard one to find your village. What to do with that lousy Copper? Discard it to dig for that Platinum.
I like Local Art, it is extremely unique. Probably very crazy with gainers and Remodelers.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2018, 06:16:14 pm »
+1

So all of Renaissance is now revealed, and it looks like things have turned out nicely! There's a shared Actions and Treasures sub-theme (specifically Actions as Treasures, with Scepter and Capitalism) that helps this set be an extension even better, and the similarity clashes are light; Hideout is kind of an upgraded Tutor, and Patron being a Reaction getting a Coffers is like Trade Circle. There are some mechanical interactions that could be bad though, like with Exhausted and all of the ways to play Actions in the Buy phase, and Colliery (the double $ Action) here too.

A few things I thought of before the reveal though:
About Local Art, what does "when you first gain this on each of your turns" mean? Did you mean "when this is the first gain on your turn" similar to Messenger?

Good point, I meant the first Local Art you gain on your turn, no matter when. Changed.

Regeneration seems really weak compared to the other Prospects, and Imports just screams, "don't ever play with me," unless you're a total masochist who likes slogs and slow-ass games.
Imports certainly is for a niche audience, and that's probably a bad design. Regeneration seemed too strong in the first tests with it; the Coffers is a big bonus to add to the trashing effect, especially with how you want to trash anyway. This pushes its price up, and in so doing weakens the trash potential. So do the Coffers go and make this pure trashing? Is that an effective Prospect? I'm seeing several changes I can make to the Prospects and will get back with them.

I like the idea of Advancing Village but like Sauna/Avanto it does too much. If you use some Woodcutter variant as payload it is not hard to imagine a Kingdom in which you literally have to buy no other card but Advancing Village.
Mail Coach is pretty similar to Princess.
Taskmasker is extreme: extremely good when you can Throne out of hand, extremely bad when your discard is empty.
I like Textile Mill a lot.
Dismiss looks too strong at $2. Got two Smithy variants in your hand? Discard one to find your village. What to do with that lousy Copper? Discard it to dig for that Platinum.
I like Local Art, it is extremely unique. Probably very crazy with gainers and Remodelers.
The point on AV is true, a card that's too independent is not good design. The trash on Industrial Town could go.
The different-cards-only rule helps put Mail Coach in balance, such that it seems OK as a kingdom card. I hope it plays differently enough from Princess in these ways.
Taskmaster is risky, and I'm not entirely sure how to test it for balance.
Dismiss could indeed be $3 by my testing notes. It's probably wishful thinking that it's a $2. You'd need to work for the best situations, yet overall this has more purposeful function than something like Vagrant or indeed Border Guard.
Local Art has some crazy interactions, particularly in this set and Renaissance. Hopefully they're not broken.

Grateful for all your feedback. Next, a change proposal for Furnace:

Quote
When you buy this or play it: trash a card from your hand. If it...
costs $4 or more, +2 Coffers;
is a Treasure, +1 Villager;
isn't a Treasure, you may trash another card from your hand.
This gives the distinguishing I was looking for.

And a new idea that literally extends the Renaissance theme:

Quote
Playwright - Action, $4 cost.
+1 Action
+ $1

Look at the top and bottom cards of your deck. You may trash one of them.
This turn, when you play an Action of which there's a copy in the trash, take the Pen.
Quote
Pen - Artifact
At Clean-up, you may set aside an Action when you discard it from play. If you do, at the start of your next turn, play it.
If a player plays a Playwright then a copy of an Action in the trash, they get to Prince something for next turn. The premise was the Action in trash unlocking an Artifact, not using the word 'play' as often as possible...

Do these work?
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Kudasai

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #104 on: November 07, 2018, 03:14:16 am »
+1

Before I jump into your cards I should preface by saying I've recently caught the Renaissance bug and have fallen in love with simplicity all over again. So a lot of my suggestions will likely be along the lines of "Does it really need this to function?" etc. Also, I'm a bit on the sleepy side as I write this, so hopefully this is coherent.

Playwright - Overall I think this card has a nice, clean package that is easy to follow, but offers a lot of strategic options. I do believe given all it can do that it is a bit too strong. The main issue I see is that it trashes from your deck and gives +$1. The trashing is blind, but it's possible to trash an Estate from your deck and gain a $5 cost if you also have 4 Coppers in hand. This is all in addition to gaining information about your deck and later being able to gain the very powerful Pen Project.

I think if you wanna keep this in the $3-$4 cost range, you should ditch the +$1 and ability to look at the bottom of your deck. The former as a nerf and the latter more to make the card more precise. Simply looking at the top 2 cards of your deck and trashing one of them is a bit weaker and less interesting, but it streamlines the card and may allow players to focus more on how they can use the other Kingdom cards to help get certain Actions into the trash. Removing these two things could probably allow you to drop the price of Playwright down to $3 and the idea of a double Playwright opening sounds quite fun!

Whether you make these changes or not, I think the condition for getting Pen is genius! It really fits well with what Playwright does for you. If Playwright is the only trasher, it completely changes how a player will build their deck. In this scenario you essentially cannot mirror your opponent as you may trash one of your Actions and allow them to get Pen off of it. With other trashers this is less of a risk. Some may say why bother when the risk is quite high to harm yourself and help your opponent? Well, because of how good Pen is! You can't really afford to not contest it.


Also, nice new icon! Very fitting.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 03:17:27 am by Kudasai »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2018, 07:22:28 pm »
0

The simpler a card can be, the better ;). Thanks for your feedback on this.

The top I feel should be weak and this be in the $3-$4 range, so I will take the $1 off. Think it was only there out of wanting to include more virtual $ in the set. Looking at the top 2 cards is simpler, but you'd need to add "put them back in any order" as it would be too easy to 'cheat' by accident. So top and bottom is fewer words, and has the same narrow search range I'm looking for, and the extra knowledge is only circumstantially useful...I think? A little different thing achieved anyhow. But going to $3 might just work better for strategies that really need the Pen - and I hope taking the $1 off will be enough.


But I'd like to look at Prospects next. So I thought about them, and the trail went: as big one-offs, what can they safely accomplish? Early game options that aren't completely warping; mega turns (now there's a potential fun zone!); reward skillful timing; or bonuses that scale. There should be a good pool of new and interesting things to do here, and they don't all need to be about timing.

Conscription fits the scaling and mega turn brackets...only if there are other Villagers in the game. For being too dependent, it's probably out. The former ability of Villagers with every Silver was too narrow, and Renaissance is already doing lots of on-gain Villagers. Would something like discard hand for +Villager per card discarded be interesting, or would it tread too much on Acting Troupe's toes?


Exhibit kind of fits into the timing category with its early, middle and late game boosts. It seems sound in practice, with a welcome strategy element; only with top-decking every first gain (on Emblem) as the early boost seating order becomes too much of an issue. So changing it to gain a $4 means once a player uses it for the early effect, he's happier when the Emblem gets passed on.


Manufacture isn't bad as a card needing timing and strategy, but sometimes its best use is purely as Villa and the extra Action, which feels one function too many. With the second variant idea that's taken away (not a problem with Renaissance's playing Actions in the Buy phase); so has gaining the Action and the Province requirement, so it's all about what available Action effect do you need when. Openings become a factor to consider, but is there anything broken that I've overlooked?


Night Shift is, as identified by Holunder earlier, intended to fit in a timing/mega turn sort of slot, something you can prepare for. The opening opportunities detract from this at $0 cost, so for now has been upped to $2. May be too low still.


Prediction was similar to Night Shift, too useful early on. At least, with Components it was. So off with the Chancellor bit so you have to time it when all the good stuff is in your discard.

Ravage was never going to safely work with 3+ players. And I can't be confident in Regeneration even as just trash hand, as it doesn't fit any of the categories.

Takeover is simple and safe, in the timing category.


With Regeneration gone, Stocks can try to cost $0 and give no Buy, so you really sacrifice the rest of your turn more. It kind of dabbles in all of the categories. The re-theme to Catering is because a new idea I have is obviously stocks...


...which is right here:

Nothing original about overpay for Coffers at all, but I believe it fits a Prospect nicely, in the timing and scaling categories. The question is whether it's different enough from Pageant.

And finally this wacky idea:

Imports is out if this replacement works. It fit the timing category, but brought the whole game down to do so. This Shady Deal makes Delayed an option, tries to make it stick around with Curses on it, and its payout is Golds. You get some choice over how big your deal will be. Probably in the early option category, I just hope 3 Golds and Curses isn't too much for an opening $4.

Am I on a good thinking pattern here?
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Kudasai

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #106 on: November 10, 2018, 03:26:49 pm »
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Exhibit/Emblem - Big fan of this one! I think you've got some nice effects for the three stages of the game. I think the early stage effect could use a little attention though.

Early Game - Using it during one of your first 2 turns will likely turn your opening split into a $5/$4 or a $4/$4. This is nothing game breaking as we can already get these effects for free from Baker's setup and the Alms Event. So as is it's probably fine, but I wonder if you could get away with gaining two $4 cost cards?

Mid Game - You get a nice little boost here if your deck relies on a lot of $5+ cards. Seems like it would often be worth the wait.

Late Game - Now if you've been patient the whole game you get a nice little VP bump opportunity. You can essentially get 7VP for $7 (Duchy, Emblem and an Estate gained from Exhibit). This seems nice and balanced, but again if Exhibit gave 2 $4 cost cards you could make it 8VP for $7, which seems like a much more justified reward for being patient. This would work even more nicely with alt-VP costing $4 or less.

I could be completely off on the gaining 2 $4 cost card front, but $4 cost cards generally are tame enough that I don't think it would be an issue. I can see some issues with artificially low cost cards like Tournament though. In a 6 player game they could run out before the 6th player has a chance to gain any. Who designs for 6 player games anyways though!

Really cool concept though!I'll have to take a closer look at the other Prospects another time. Looking forward to it though!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 03:31:51 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2018, 04:42:59 pm »
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Overpay for Coffers has been tried by DXV for Guilds and did not work. I think some ideas about it have flown around here with some penalty like Copper gaining. But as a one-off you cannot easily abuse it and thus don't have to worry so much about balanced so thumbs up for Stocks.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #108 on: January 02, 2019, 06:31:43 pm »
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And back to this set again. Keeps me fresh switching between the two. More Prospects:


Infinite Buys, is that safe for one turn? Use for essential early building or build to a massive $ mega turn.


Conscription can probably work like this, +$ per Villager you have for one turn (or discard hand for Villagers for when there are no Villager cards). It is a bit similar to Steelworks (gain card costing exactly your Villagers in $), but with how Renaissance makes Villagers very collectible I don't think Steelworks is a safe or interesting card to do anymore. A shame because it was promising; if I make it more expensive to balance it with Acting Troupe or Recruiter it becomes only situationally viable for when those cards are present.


Thought about mega turn draw and arrived at "why not the whole deck?" It can take a bit of timing and prep with the Action trash to trigger and not drawing the discard pile, but maybe $1 is a bit cheap?


And a slightly weird one. Making an early Duchy buy a valid option was one idea, and a Prototype Prospect was another so you'd only have one Machine for the game. This is a fusion of the two, hoping the power level of Prototype is right for this.

Some definite other fixes to be made, which I'll get back with.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2019, 10:06:41 am »
+1

Wouldn't you just buy and use Consumerism every single turn? Why does it cost ?

*Edit* I think I misunderstood the basic rules for Prospects. I was thinking of it like an Event-Reserve, that you would put your cube on, and then spend the cube to get the effect whenever you wanted. But I now think that it's just an event that happens when you buy it; but the cube is a reminder that you've already done it; so can't do it again? If so, they aren't different than Inheritance; a regular event that happens to have a once per game restriction.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 10:13:43 am by GendoIkari »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #110 on: January 26, 2019, 06:26:43 am »
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I've been compelled into another full update all at once. OP has already been changed. A general improvement to the looks of each card, and some changes to what they do:


Being forced to remember exchanging Advancing Village to Industrial Town was bad. And if it were optional, it wouldn't work. So it's this new idea, trying to bring back the +3 Actions from the old Purist with the added snag of coming with a top-decked Silver, taken off of Components. So that the village can advance, there's a when trash ability that gains a different $3-$6 back from the trash.
So it's an efficient Village hard to connect to Actions, that can be tfb if you just wanted the Silver.


Colliery could be mad with Capitalism, so it's toned down to Bank for Actions without the non-terminal option. Might need a cap on it.


Diary I hope could go down to $4, if Patron can?


Dismiss up to $3, as formerly suggested.


Diversion's vanilla is now +$3, distinguishes it from Villain and having a +$3 in the set is good. The Attack is a bit friendlier in its place, opponents can choose to delay junk but at a recurring cost to their good buys. A bit more thought involved for them.


Foreign Art up to $6, it's that strong.


Local Art up to $5, it was mad with Sculptor so that interaction calls for a bit more now with a Bridge needed.


Playwright down to $3 with no +$, as Kudasai suggested.


Complete change for Taskmaster. I do feel there's something good about Throne from discard, so I've got a variant for Dynasties. With Mountain Village it seemed weird to have it here.
So this goes back to applying Exhausted to everything, in a much cleaner way. Doesn't quite make sense to use it on Villages as you're burning a surplus of Actions with this.


Textile Mill has had its overpay moved and it's back to 2 cards on exhaust. It should be all it needs.


Trade Circle was rather strong as you trashed right down and accumulated a big pile of Coffers doing so. Now it's trying a new reaction out, when you put a card onto your deck (through these word-for-word instructions or putting them back after a reveal, but not during shuffling) you can discard this to draw it and get a Coffers. The on-play might be dubious, just something I thought might fit.


Wastelands VP trigger down to 6 or fewer non-Victories, to be even more emphatic about the intended strategy.

Components is just the Treasure Map bit, that's plenty.


Prototype takes the Treasure line down a new path, using Coffers. It's an Action Treasure now so if Spinning Mule draws it you can still play it. There are still a good number of times you'd want to play this as an Action.


Steam Engine can't Scheme itself now, rightly or wrongly, and is worded to fit the new Prototype better.


Spinning Mule adds draw to Coffers, so you draw Treasures this way and can still play them. It can't simply explode into Action with your starting Coppers anymore, like Steam Engine you need to build up a bit first.


New wording attempt for Patent. Like this nobody can take the same Action as another player, not the combo; narrower for a stronger advantage, but it could be a bad thing. The Patent mat now has a +2 Buys side on it. Instructions are copied, but not the name and types; it can take Reaction effects and attack without being an Attack. Probably bad, it just needs to still be called Patent and to be Machine type.

Prospects:
...I now think that it's just an event that happens when you buy it; but the cube is a reminder that you've already done it; so can't do it again? If so, they aren't different than Inheritance; a regular event that happens to have a once per game restriction.
This is correct. I said it before but I feel the new type reflects Donald's thinking. If he redid Inheritance it would probably be a Project for simplicity, and Lost in the Woods an Artifact. As Prospects aren't identical in function either to (all the other) Events or Projects a new type is simplest.


Night Shift is a one-off, does it need to check the previous turn wasn't yours?


Fixed Shady Deal at 2 Golds and Curses.


New ones:

Quote
Antique - Treasure, $2* cost.
+1 Buy
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less, but not less than $0. At Clean-up, return this to the Supply.
-
This can't cost less than $2. When you buy this, +1 Buy.
A one-turn Treasure Bridge you can borrow for $2. The more you collect and play at once, the better potential payout, though a spare $2 could go on the odd one. As yet untested, but it looks promising. If it works out, then I plan to move Mail Coach to Dynasties.


Quote
Glassworks - Action, $2+ cost.
+ $2
You may take Exhausted. If you do, +1 Coffers.
-
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. +1 Villager per $1 you overpaid.
Moving overpay for Villagers onto something cheap. You can play it early to use surplus Actions (or indeed Villagers) on a store of Coffers, or simply get $3. Too much for a $2? The trouble is being different from Lackeys yet being worthwhile...


Quote
Jailer - Action Attack Duration, $5 cost.
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals their hand and sets aside a card that you choose. After they draw their next hand, they put it into their hand.
At the start of your next turn, +3 Cards.
And this guy from the weekly contest I think fits very well in here.

Removed cards:
- Mail Coach, in a vote of confidence that Antique works. It did fit ok as an off theme card, but there's a tendency to buy lots of different stuff with it, and that's not what this set is about. Your buys are more careful here.
- Parade is just...awkward, not worth the chance element it adds. The on-gain it had could be salvaged onto something else; it feels like it could work well with Coffers and Villagers, you can use them to help keep Actions and Treasures in play in balance.
- Potteries was like Mail Coach, getting general stuff, so it was rather niche. Could put the Exhausted variant back in sometime, if there isn't already enough with Exhausted.
- Replica isn't necessary, just move its buy onto Patent. I did think of a variant that would Scheme a Machine every turn, but that seemed too automatic.

So, hope this is all good. It patches up the shortage of $2s.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #111 on: February 17, 2019, 06:02:59 am »
+3

I'm fairly sure jailer is problematic if I'm reading it right. It's like the Council Room/Pillage "combo" in one. The cards go back to the opponents hand at the end of their turn which means they'll then have a 6 card hand during your turn and so will be effected by 2 Jailer attacks that turn and so on. With this having the same non-attack effect as Haunted Woods we know that it won't be too difficult to chain a few per turn.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #112 on: February 18, 2019, 10:27:31 am »
0

I'm fairly sure jailer is problematic if I'm reading it right. It's like the Council Room/Pillage "combo" in one. The cards go back to the opponents hand at the end of their turn which means they'll then have a 6 card hand during your turn and so will be effected by 2 Jailer attacks that turn and so on. With this having the same non-attack effect as Haunted Woods we know that it won't be too difficult to chain a few per turn.
Thanks for this, it's all true. I see why Woods gets away with it in being an Attack needing only one copy played, hadn't quite twigged that. Yet we want to keep the essence of why Jailer won the contest. The soundest solution I think is to have the attack work with exactly 5 cards in hand. But will that make a deck rotating 2 Jailers too automatic?
Edit: between turns handsize would be 5 every other turn (not 8...), so yes this should work? And defenses against the attack would include the Flag and Expedition. And Borrow.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 04:22:51 pm by Aquila »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #113 on: April 05, 2019, 09:24:59 am »
0

A few more ideas for additions and changes. OP not updated yet, but I'll do more explaining of the cards there (edit: done). Let's do the new ideas first, it's more fun that way:


Quote
Chemist - Action, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action

Choose one: discard a card for +1 Villager; or spend a Villager for +1 Card.
Discard for a Villager one time, Lost City another time. The set was lacking in cantrips, hopefully this fills that up.


Quote
Potteries - Action, $5 cost.
Take Delayed. Gain up to 2 non-Victory cards onto it with a total cost of no more than $8.
Potteries take 3 (or maybe 4). Artisan gains cards and she's a potter, so a Potteries should gain cards. It was gaining just one card of any cost until I put this post up; last minute I thought it could have this to help distinguish it from Foreign Art a bit more. Choose to get 2 cards and you sacrifice more of your Buy phase.


Quote
Steelworks - Action, $4 cost.
Trash a card from your hand. If it was...
an Action, gain a Treasure costing up to $3 more than it;
a Treasure, gain an Action costing up to $3 more than it;
a Victory, gain 2 cheaper cards to your hand.
Just like Potteries, these Steelworks have been a theme idea I could incorporate better. Here's the iron theme from the official cards made into the Remodel variant the set has been missing. A niche card.


Quote
Dividends - Prospect, $0 cost.
+1 Buy
If you have the same number of Actions and Treasures in play, +1 Coffers per 1 of each type.
What I hope is a sensible take on Parade's on-gain effect, a Prospect is neither Action nor Treasure and still checks at the Buy phase. Everyone's getting some free Coffers this game whether they work for it or get some by chance.


Quote
Progress - Prospect, $2 cost.
+1 Buy
Take half the tokens on this (round up) as Coffers, the rest as Villagers.
-
When a card costing $4 or more is gained, add a token to this.
Those who watch the weekly design contest would have seen this coming, this winner dressed up in its intended Prospect form. I still want to keep it accumulating at $4 cards so with 3+ player games there's more chance everyone can get a sensible yield from it.


Quote
Prediction - Prospect, $2 cost.
+1 Buy
Put any number of cards you have in play that would be discarded this turn onto your deck.
Kind of new card, kind of fix, Prediction goes from Harbinger-ing your next draw to Scheming it. It's reliable and a bit more fun.

And the fixes:


Colliery can still be a beast, so it's up to $7. Expensive cards in the set give reason to save up Coffers.
Furnace is also quite the power card, so the Villager function has been removed.
Jailer as described in last post.
Advocation becomes Automation, the needing Duchy bit simply changed to $6 cost. There is the interesting comparison to Takeover (Province at $6 cost), but their purpose and optimal timing are very different. Probably.


25 kingdom piles, 14 Prospects and all the other things. That's a current total of 327 cards including the randomisers. So 6 more Prospects up to 20 is 333, 6 more non-Victory piles is 399, and another Artifact would be 400. That's the ideal!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 04:19:19 am by Aquila »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #114 on: April 05, 2019, 01:11:04 pm »
+1

Wait, so with Chemist you get both the Action and the Card when you spend the Villager? Without your explanation, I would have guessed it works like Butcher in that you lose what the token does.

GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #115 on: April 10, 2019, 05:55:48 pm »
+2

Wait, so with Chemist you get both the Action and the Card when you spend the Villager? Without your explanation, I would have guessed it works like Butcher in that you lose what the token does.

Yeah it also reads to me like you should not get +1 action for spending the Villager.

Also to be clear, as worded you are allowed to choose the second option even if you have no Villagers; to just use the card as a pure cantrip. But if you do have at least 1 Villager (and 1 card in hand), then a pure cantrip is not an option.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #116 on: April 11, 2019, 02:35:04 am »
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Wait, so with Chemist you get both the Action and the Card when you spend the Villager? Without your explanation, I would have guessed it works like Butcher in that you lose what the token does.

Yeah it also reads to me like you should not get +1 action for spending the Villager.

Also to be clear, as worded you are allowed to choose the second option even if you have no Villagers; to just use the card as a pure cantrip. But if you do have at least 1 Villager (and 1 card in hand), then a pure cantrip is not an option.
OK, so spending Villagers here would be a separate event to doing so with the Villager mat instruction, so I need to add +1 Action on (I think it feels nicer to keep the Villagers' Action function rather than convert them to cards).
And what you identify is what I intended Gendo, so it's not a completely trivial card to use. Could be unrealistic.
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