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Aquila

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Dominion: Revolution
« on: March 10, 2017, 03:30:48 pm »
+6

Call it a fan set, or call it an exploration into different mechanics. It's both.

Revolution takes the actions one needs to play Action cards and makes them more like a currency. You can collect tokens to get +actions whenever you need them, and you can also be 'owing' an action. But this isn't a set all about the smoothest engines; Treasures get a look-in too.
I've also attempted to make plenty of synergy between the cards in this set. I'll leave the fun of figuring them out to you.

Mechanics: action tokens, a -1 action State, a set of cycling effects needing actions to activate.

Action tokens - there are cards that let you collect action tokens. They're just like coin tokens from Guilds, only when you spend one, you get +1 action. You can do this at any time you're not resolving an effect.

The -1 action State, Exhaustion
Quote
Exhaustion - State
When you next have unused actions and it's your Action Phase, return this and -1 action.
There would be 6 of these IRL, 1 per player. Some cards in this set take Exhaustion as a setback to being extra powerful. You return this whenever you're not resolving an effect and have at least 1 action unused, and it's not optional.
 
Those cycling effects are below the kingdom cards, which I move onto now. These are all playtested to some extent, and any updates from further playtesting will be added to this OP.


Quote
Advancing Village - Action Reaction, $4 cost.
+1 card
Take an action token.
-
When this enters your hand outside of your Action Phase, you may play it immediately. (Discard it at your next Clean-up.)
At a time of revolution, villages grow and thrive, becoming towns.
This brings out one advantage of action tokens over +actions: you can get them outside of your turn. Whenever you draw or gain this into your hand, you can play it straight away, just take a token and replace the card in your hand. Just not during your Action Phase mind, your Smithy isn't going to suddenly become non-terminal just by drawing this. But any other time, Margrave, Council Room, Minion, or even when you Donate. Or simply when you draw your next hand at Clean-up.


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Blueprints - Action, $4 cost.
+1 buy
+ $1

Trash a card from your hand. + $1 per $2 it costs, and if it wasn't an Action or Treasure card, trash up to 2 more cards from your hand.
The plans to develop your green space into cold, hard industry.
A trasher specialising in Estates and Curses, or it can give a bit of payload.


Quote
Canal - Action, $5 cost.
+1 buy
This turn, cards you haven't yet gained a copy of cost $2 less, but not less than $0.
The travel route synonymous with industrial revolution. It connects to all parts of the kingdom but there's only so much room on a boat.
What you generally want to do with actions is play strong terminals, like a Bridge variant. Rather than focusing one pile, Canal works best when you collect different cards each turn. I need to mention, though, I have not playtested this with Cornucopia.

A split pile:

Quote
Colliery - Action, $3 cost.
+ $2
Discard a card.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do this again.
-
When you gain this, take an action token.
Quote
New Element - $5 cost.
When you play this, it's worth $5 -$1 per card in your hand, down to $0.
-
You may only buy this if you have a Colliery in play. When you buy this, return the Colliery to the Supply.
Coal mining prospers during the revolution. But deep down, something even more revolutionary is waiting to be unearthed.
So here is the first Exhaustion card. Play the Colliery, get $2 and discard a card. But maybe you need more money this turn. You can get it by choosing to take Exhaustion, getting a total of $4 and discarding a second card. Now, whenever you would be able to play another Action card, you need to instead return the Exhaustion, be that straight away, next turn, or if you spend an action token to do so.
When enough Collieries are gained the New Element becomes available, which rewards you for having few greens or unusable Actions in your hand, or Night cards. You need to exchange your Colliery for it as well as pay $5, and doing so seals the New Elements away again. But at least whoever wants another one can take an action token when they gain that Colliery.


Quote
Diary - Treasure, $5 cost.
$2
When you play this, you may put a card from your hand onto your deck. If you do, take an action token.
A worker's memory of home. It reminds him to send something back to his family, and keep on working hard.
A simple card that has a lot of uses.


Quote
Entrepreneur - Action Reaction, $2 cost.
+1 action
+ $1

If the Entrepreneur Supply pile is empty, +1 card and +1 buy.
-
When any other player trashes a card, you may return this to the Supply to gain a card costing up to $5.
Entrepreneurship is a risky investment, but there are tons of opportunities at this time. You start small, but the rewards in the end can be well worth it.
This is a lot about high risk high reward, and mutual player interaction. He starts out as a measly Copper disguised as an Action. But will someone else trash when he's in your hand, or can you make them trash? Or can he possibly make it to being a Market this game? When he does, will someone then trash, another return him and make him a little Copper again?


Quote
Glassworks - Action, $5 cost.
Draw up to 8 cards in hand, then discard down to 5.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to reveal your hand and gain a card costing exactly $1 per type (Action, attack etc.) in your hand.
In imitation of another booming industry during the revolution, your hand can become a transparent object you shape to your desire.
It can be a very powerful draw if you have few cards in your hand, but only that one play unlike Embassy. You have the option to gain a nice card by putting many different types together in your hand of 5; even a Province. That's why you need to take Exhaustion.


Quote
Hawker - Action Attack Duration, $4 cost.
Until your next turn, each other player may only buy 0 or 2 cards during their turns.
At the start of your next turn:
+1 buy
+ $2
With so many new products being invented, there are plenty of wares for him to peddle and distract your opponents with.
He can be really disruptive to boards that like many buys, like Goons, or early on he can be a kind of junker, most likely forcing players to buy a Copper together with an important card they need.


Quote
Innovator - Action, $5 cost.
Choose one: + $2, play up to 3 Treasures from your hand, and you may buy a card, gaining it onto your deck; or +2 cards.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
The brains behind revolution. Give him enough resources and he can create something to use right away.
This one calls for a bit of thinking. You can do one option, or take Exhaustion to do both either way round; that is, buy a card and draw it straight into your hand, or draw first to perhaps try getting more Treasures to use for the buy. You don't have to buy a card; +2 cards + $2 is a strong vanilla combo in itself. But if you do buy a card straight to your hand, if it's an Action you will need 3 actions ready before you play the Innovator to use it.


Quote
Night Shift - Night Duration, $5 cost.
Take Exhaustion; if you do, and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.
Machinery reduces the limitations of human labour. The night is another limitation that can be overcome.
This Outpost variant forces you to start your bonus turn without the initial action. You could 'unlock' your Action Phase with Duration Villages or an action token, or simply skip it.


Quote
Parade - Victory, <8> cost.
Worth 8VP - VP equal to the difference in the number of Actions and Treasures in your deck.
-
You may only buy this if you have the same number of Actions and Treasures in play.
Revolution brings prosperity, cause for celebration. To hold a parade, you need both people and money.
Alt VP that adds a spin to deck building. If you're used to Action-heavy engines or BM, this won't fare you well. But 8 VP for 8 cost is very generous, so it can be worth remembering what your deck is for it. Every gain you make can either give or take away a fair amount of VP. Why does it cost debt? So it's always available when you're allowed to buy it, and to help prevent gaining it.


Quote
Pigeon - Action, $4 cost.
+1 card
+1 action

Set this aside. Trash a card from your hand and one from the Supply costing up to $5 that is not Pigeon.
At the end of your turn, trash this and gain a Pigeon.
The pigeon, still the best form of sending mail, flies from your hands with the item you want to send away. Then it will feed on whatever it finds, and return to you.
First off, there are 12 of these so there is the best chance of everyone having a fair share of them in any size of game (except 5-player). You get a limited number of uses on a cantrip trasher, but can also take cards out of the supply to speed up the game, affect splits, or deny something annoying like IGG. The number of uses you get depends on the other players, for a bit more player interaction. It needs to be set aside then replaced at end of turn so you can't repeatedly draw one Pigeon for the same turn.


Quote
Potteries - Action, $5 cost.
Choose one: trash a card from your hand, and gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card; or look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
Clay has a mind of its own. Pots are often thrown, discarded, then thrown again.
Another choosing one like Innovator. Remodel; fish out something good in the discard pile; Remodel to hand; find something in the discard to remodel, or other things. This may be a touch on the strong side as is.


Quote
Revolters - Action Attack Duration, $4 cost.
Until your next turn, if each other player has 1 or fewer unused actions at the start of their Buy Phase, they gain a Curse; or if there are no Curses, a Copper.
At the start of your next turn, take an action token.
Not everybody wants to move with the times, and others protest against the intense labour. The forming riot seeks others to join them.
This I believe is the closest you can get to a -1 action attack. It can't simply hand out Exhaustion, as it's possible to pin others out of playing any Actions altogether, which is too strong. So it counts actions at the Buy Phase, and players can avoid the Curse by having spare actions: it needs to count 1 left, though, as pure money would otherwise make it do nothing. And when the Curses are out, it turns to handing out Copper to keep on applying the pressure to waste actions.


Quote
Steelworks - Action Attack, $5 cost.
Gain a card costing up to $4; or if you have used 3 or more actions this turn it may cost $5.
Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of their deck; if one costs the same as the card you gained (they choose one if there are 2 or more), they may trash it or gain a Curse.
Steel is a versatile building material, but it can also make weapons.
This factory counts used actions similar to how Conspirator counts Action cards played. There are enough ways in this set to make it different yet work; Exhaustion would count as a used action, and the cycling effects, the Wanderers, are other ways to use actions. The 'activation' is a big step up in the power of the card you can gain and the attack. The Knight-style attack has narrow range but searches deep, and puts the cards it reveals back. Such attacks don't seem all that popular though, so this gives the option to gain a Curse instead for now.


Quote
Textile Mill - Action, $5 cost.
Choose one: +3 cards; or look at the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any number, then put the rest back with any number from your hand in any order.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
The spinning mill straightens rough wool into fine threads, and brings it together into fine textiles.
Another choice of two with Exhaustion, this variant enables a great amount of deck control. Sort then draw, and you could control how many cards you draw by putting cards in your hand back; draw then sort, if you decide it's best to make a good next turn; or one choice for now or later impact. This may seem to be too much control, but Exhaustion hurts card draw quite a lot.


Quote
Tutor - Action Duration, $3 cost.
+1 card
+1 action

Set aside a card from your hand. At the start of your next turn, if the card is an...
Action, play it;
Treasure, trash it;
neither type, discard it and +1 card.
New technology is new knowledge to teach. A master of his trade, the tutor advises his pupils on the most efficient uses for all resources.
A multipurpose duration that's always handy to have around, though it's a bit slow.


Quote
Wastelands - Victory, $5 cost.
If you have 15 or fewer cards in your deck, this is worth 5VP, otherwise 2VP.
-
When you gain this, trash up to 3 cards you have in play.
Growing industry needs land to dispose its waste material upon. Hardly something of value to most monarchs, but to those with little it means a lot more.
A reverse Gardens, which unlike Wall takes up a card in your deck. If you can go that small, it's worthwhile, but because Provinces are easier to get it's quite a challenge to pull off.

Now to finish the kingdom cards, a complicated batch. It starts as a short Traveller line, and comes to a choice of 3 final upgrades:


Quote
Components - Action Traveller, $3 cost
Return this and another Components from your hand to the Supply. If you do return 2 Components, gain a Prototype.
-
When you gain this, gain a Silver onto your deck.
Everyone is into innovation right now, and you, the monarch, decide to have a tinker yourself. You buy in some mechanical parts and start putting them together, making something marvelous.
The kingdom card to start off the process. Treasure-Map 2 of them together to progress to the next step. They cost $3, so you can open with 2 of them, but you have extra cards to deal with in the Silvers you get with them. Maybe you just want the Silver, you're paying the same to have one top-decked; that's fine, you can return the one Components later.
Quote
Prototype - Action Traveller, $5* cost.
Take two action tokens.
Trash a Treasure from your hand. Gain a Treasure costing up to $3 more to your hand.
You may discard this. If you don't, then at Clean-up exchange this for a Patent, Spinning Mule or Steam Engine.
(This is not in the Supply.)
You assemble the pieces into a basic machine. It works a treat, but as so often happens with prototypes, only once before needing repair.
Ignoring the final upgrades, this is a card that discards itself on play, so it can be played several times in the same turn. This mechanic can run into several issues, but Prototype should be safe from most of them. It has no issues with tracking, and it's impossible to make infinite turns with this as it's a non-Supply card. Whenever you don't discard it straight away, you choose one of the three final upgrades and exchange in the normal Traveller fashion.
Quote
Patent - Action, $6* cost.
Choose one: +1 card, +1 action, +1 buy or + $1, then this becomes the card on your Patent mat.
-
When you first gain this, put an Action card from the Supply that isn't on another player's Patent mat onto your Patent mat.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Transforming your prototype into a more usable machine, you wind up creating something completely new! You patent it, and leave your mark in history.
Make your own power card. Not only that, but prevent anyone else doing the same as you. If you lose the race for the best Patent though, it's not all bad; you'll probably make good use of a Steam Engine.
Quote
Spinning Mule - Action, $6* cost.
+1 card
+1 action

While this is in play, after you play a Treasure, +1 card.
(This is not in the Supply.)
The current success of the textile industry gives you the idea of adjusting your prototype into a wool spinning device. A get-rich-quick plan.
Turn all your Coppers into Peddlers, Silvers into Conspirators and so on. You can get massive amounts of coins for the turn, but the more Treasure you have, the less often you'll play this. Treasures get +cards 'after' they're resolved rather than first, for no other reason than working better with New Element above.
Quote
Steam Engine - Action, $6* cost.
While this is in play, the next 3 times you gain a card take an action token, and when you spend an action token, instead of +1 action you may play an Action card from your hand twice.
(This is not in the Supply.)
When you saw steam power in action, you had to have it for yourself. Your prototype has become an attachment to many a machine, making them all automatic.
Spinning Mule super-charges Treasures. This super-charges Actions by turning action tokens into Throne tokens. Because you 'play an Action' when you do the Throne option, you don't use an action at all.



Sets of cycling effects - the Wanderers

Randomiser card:
Quote
Shuffle the Wanderers pile at the start of each game. During their Action Phase a player may use an action to play the top Wanderer, moving it to their play area until they are returned to the bottom of the pile at the stated time.
This is a pile of landscape cards that players could freely choose to include in their games, and for those who want it sometimes there can be this randomiser card.

The cards:
Quote
Warband - put 2 cards from your hand onto your deck. Each other player with more than 4 cards in hand does the same. Return: end of your turn.
It's never good news when a warband is on the loose.
Quote
Roadshow - each player draws up to 6 cards in hand, and looks through their discard pile and puts a card from it into their hand. Return: end of your turn.
Can anyone wait for the roadshow to come into town? Players may want to hurry it up.
Quote
Circus Troupe - each player reveals their hand to the player on their left, and they choose a card. Each player then draws a card and puts the chosen card onto their deck. Return: end of your turn.
Perform the unusual trick of swapping a card in the hand with the top one of the deck.
Quote
Forger - move a Copper from the Copper pile onto a different Supply pile of your choice. Cards under it cannot be gained or bought before it is. Return: end of your turn.
Head off to purchase supplies, only to find they're fake.
Quote
Scrounger - each player trashes up to 2 cards from their hand. Return: end of your turn.
A helpful fellow, your junk is his treasure.
Quote
Caravaneer - while this is in play, if a player has at least $2 unspent at the start of Clean-up, they draw 2 extra cards for their next turn's hand. Return: start of your next turn.
Like the Caravan he owns, he gives you cards later.
Quote
Secret Dealer - each player puts their deck into their discard pile and gets +1 buy at the start of their next turn. Return: end of your next turn.
He may do business for you, but his methods are really shady.
Quote
Roadblock - while this is in play, after cards are drawn or gained into a player's hand other than at Clean-up, they are immediately discarded. Return: end of your next turn.
The last thing you want during a time of growth is have your imports cut off.
Quote
Royal Visit - while this is in play, after cards are discarded or trashed from a player's hand other than at Clean-up, they are returned to their hand. Return: end of your next turn.
When other royals come, you want to impress. You simply cannot show yourself wasteful.
Quote
Refugees - +1 action. Each player takes an action token. Reveal the Wanderer that is second from top. Return: end of your turn.
They can be put to work, and they can tell you who else they've seen around.

So you use an action, and instead of playing an Action card from your hand you move the top card of this pile to your play area and do its effect. Because each card is different, and one player can get a significant advantage over another simply by one Wanderer being better in a game than another, each one affects everybody, to try reducing the swinginess. This mechanic I imagine could be employed in several different ways, with different sets of piles. This set is all about card movement.
Refugees lets players know what card comes after the top one, so they know what's coming and can plan ahead. Their token lets them play it and the top card if they choose to.
Because there is only one copy of each card in a pile, which won't be accessible all the time, there are several effects here you couldn't see on an Action card because they would be game-breaking or ineffective if they were. Each one will have a very different impact depending on the timing of when it's the top card, and on the kingdom, and the result is hopefully providing many new play experiences.



That's all for now. Feel free to comment, criticise or suggest improvements. I don't mind criticism, it's essential to perfecting any design.
Thx for reading!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 10:19:14 am by Aquila »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 08:20:50 am »
+2

I suggest to post less cards at once. I understand why you would want to share all of your ideas at once with us, but given there are no pictures, this is an incredibly long wall of text. Many people won't even start reading it, as they will get tired of it before finishing. I'm saying this before taking any look at your actual cards, just as a friendly tip: Less at once means more detailed feedback, and probably more altogether.

Now I'll check some random cards and give my 2 cents:

Quote
Taskmaster - Action, +1 card +4 actions. If there are any unused actions at the end of your turn, draw 2 less cards for your next turn’s hand, down to 3. $4 cost.
On a German forum I already encountered something like this, where spending all your Actions was necessary to achieve something. I think it's not too great to punish somebody for overproducing, though. As I said about LastFootnote's Charlatan already, overproduction is in itself a punishment, as you waste something you put effort in. That said, it doesn't look unbalanced. With +3 Actions it'd maybe even pass as a regular 4$? I don't know. Or just give the penalty every time. Just, I'd suggest to not punish for failing to use your potential.

Quote
Potteries - Action, +4 cards. You may use a second action on this. If you do, +1 buy, + $2. $6 cost.
You might like to check out my Town/Road (click the link in my signature) on how I did spending two Actions on one card. It seemed easier to me back then. And I'd say it is if you only do one card with that ability, but here of course you made it a recurring thing. Which means that yes, you have to learn something new, but you get a whole new bunch of cards that use that thing. That said, I'm not sure how good or bad Potteries is. It seems better than Hunting Grounds, but I'm not sure how much better.

Quote
Advancing Village - Action, +1 card, +2 actions. If this was played from your hand, take an Action Token. $5 cost.
I don't get what you say about "replaying itself infinitely". If the +1 Action token just gives you +1 Action, however would you play this card again?

Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may use the action on the last one you played.
I don't get the last part. Is the +1 Action Token supposed to be something like Royal Carriage? Because if it's just "When you play an Action card, you may use an Action token to get +1 Action", what would "use it on the last one you played" even mean?

navical

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 09:31:26 am »
0

I suggest to post less cards at once. I understand why you would want to share all of your ideas at once with us, but given there are no pictures, this is an incredibly long wall of text. Many people won't even start reading it, as they will get tired of it before finishing. I'm saying this before taking any look at your actual cards, just as a friendly tip: Less at once means more detailed feedback, and probably more altogether.


Definitely this.

Quote
Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may use the action on the last one you played.
I don't get the last part. Is the +1 Action Token supposed to be something like Royal Carriage? Because if it's just "When you play an Action card, you may use an Action token to get +1 Action", what would "use it on the last one you played" even mean?
I assume it's meant to be
Quote
While this is in play, when you spend an Action token, you may replay the last Action you played instead of getting +1 Action.
Although I can't find a perfect wording either, I think that's clearer?
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 11:27:31 am »
0

I suggest to post less cards at once.
Good call. I should thank you both for reading what you have.

Edit: so I split them up according to their mechanics. Reverted as they looked more clumsy dotted around. I am slowly working on images for each card.

Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may use the action on the last one you played.
I don't get the last part. Is the +1 Action Token supposed to be something like Royal Carriage? Because if it's just "When you play an Action card, you may use an Action token to get +1 Action", what would "use it on the last one you played" even mean?
So you play Executive, and discard some Treasures to get some action tokens. If there are no actions left after this, you would pay a token to gain +1 action in the usual way. You can choose to play an action from your hand at this point.
Or you can use the action you just got from the token on the Executive, since it is the last action you played. So it would still count as using an action, and you would again have none left.
Now the difficulty with wording; suppose after the Executive you play Potteries, then pay another token and use the action on the Potteries. You are using 'a second action' on it and would get the Woodcutter effect. If you were to 'replay' the Potteries like with Royal Carriage you would replay the card and get 4 cards again.

I hope this makes sense since it helps to explain this:
Quote
Advancing Village - Action, +1 card, +2 actions. If this was played from your hand, take an Action Token. $5 cost.
I don't get what you say about "replaying itself infinitely". If the +1 Action token just gives you +1 Action, however would you play this card again?
I should explain that when I wrote the commentary for each card in my own notes, the rule on Executive was always what action tokens did. I changed them for simplicity and then made Executive to keep the effect. I just forgot to update this.
So with an Executive in play, you'd play Advancing Village, gain a token, which you use on Advancing Village, gain another token, etc.

Edit: adjusted the comments on each card.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 02:59:44 am by Aquila »
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 12:04:30 pm »
+1

Hum, I'm really not sure I like the idea of being allowed to re-play cards that are already in play. It seems wonky with Durations, at least. If you want to keep that ability, you should fix up Executive instead of altering other cards that give out the token: "While this is in play, when you play an Action card from your hand, you may first spend any number of +1 Action Tokens to play that card that many additional times."
That would stack with several, though. An alternative would be to just introduce an own type of token: "Take that many Executive Tokens..."

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2017, 01:36:38 pm »
0

Some adjustments thanks to your feedback.

I guess a lot of confusion arises with this whole 'second action' idea. If we remove that things should be easier. I can do what I did to the unnamed remodeler, 'choose one... You may use two actions on this'.

Quote
Glassworks - action. Choose one: return up to 2 cards from your hand to the piles they came from, and you may gain a card costing exactly the sum of the returned cards; or draw up to 6 cards in your hand. You may use two actions on this. $5 cost.
Should play just the same, only Thrones let you do one then the other too.

Quote
Potteries - Action, choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, + $2. You may use two actions on this. $6 cost.
I feared that playing Village-this to draw 4 cards twice would be too strong, so it's down to 3 but hopefully a lot simpler. I'm toying with adding 'when you gain this, take 2 action tokens.'

Quote
Steelworks - Action. Choose one: draw up to 9 cards in hand, then put 3 cards from your hand on the bottom of your deck; or reveal your hand, and if there are… 3 or more Treasures, + $2; 3 or more Actions, +2 actions; 1 or more Victory cards, +1 buy. You may use two actions on this. $5 cost.
This is quite a bit stronger; you can reveal your hand twice for 3 actions and/or $4, but it'll be harder to get with a 4 card hand.

Quote
Textile Mill - Choose one: +1 card per card in your hand, discard up to 3 cards then put your hand on top of your deck in any order; or gain a card costing up to 4 into your hand. You may use two actions on this. $5 cost.
The Workshop part gains to hand to work better with the first part, but would two 4s to hand be too strong?

A change to Taskmaster to be similar to Lost City's balance:
Quote
Taskmaster - Action, +1 card +4 actions. When you gain this, draw 2 less cards for your next turn’s hand, down to 3.
The skill element is still there. There could be some complex reason to gain one just for the effect.

These changes should make Executive and Expert much simpler:
Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may replay the last action you played instead of +1 action. $6 cost.
Quote
Expert - Action. Choose one: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin or +1 buy, then replay the last action you resolved that is not an Expert. $5 cost.

About replaying durations, the instructions for Royal Carriage seem to imply you can only do so on the turn you play them, and not on their later effects. If you do so the card stays out with it for easy tracking. It wouldn't make sense with Hireling otherwise. And it can't replay reserves as they're never in play after they're resolved. So, with the cards changed to be like this, the same rule would apply, the action token (Executive) or Expert card staying with the duration.

Hopefully improvements.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2017, 05:05:05 pm »
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It's not at all clear what "you may use 2 actions on this" means. To me, it reads "you may play this card and have it consume 2 actions instead of 1", with no additional effect.

Do you actually mean "You may use an additional Action to play this card a second time"?
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2017, 07:28:53 pm »
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Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
This has serious problems with Crown. You are forced to play Crown, but it's your Action phase, so uh I suppose you can throne an Action. What if I draw more Treasures? Do I have to play them? Am I allowed to play them? And what if I discard some of the Treasures in my hand? Am I still required to play them?

Similar problems, to a lesser extent, occur with Counterfeit - did I play the counterfeited card and have thus fulfilled the requirement to play it, or does Consumerist line up the cards in your hand for play and you have to play them even when they stop being in your hand? And if I Counterfeit Rocks to gain a Silver in hand, what about that?

Unfortunately, I do not have a good idea of how to fix these issues while keeping the premise. Other than that, I would add that gaining a card at the start of your turn rather than at its end is usually considered a bonus, so I'm not sure the attack is strong enough to be worth it.
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Shvegait

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2017, 08:34:35 pm »
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It's not at all clear what "you may use 2 actions on this" means. To me, it reads "you may play this card and have it consume 2 actions instead of 1", with no additional effect.

Do you actually mean "You may use an additional Action to play this card a second time"?

These cards give you an extra optional effect, if you pay Actions. Think of how Butcher lets you pay Coin tokens, and then that gives you an extra benefit. Here, you pay Actions for the extra benefit.

Take Potteries for example (using the version from the first post). When you play it, it's just like Hunting Grounds. Then, you can pay another Action (if you have one) for +1 Buy, +$2.

I find the wording on these cards a bit confusing, especially considering the explanation on how Action tokens work. The card texts themselves should be enough to explain how the card works. The alternating back and forth between 1st action part and 2nd action part seems too complicated. The concept of "using two actions" is certainly ambiguous and should be reworded.

I think the concept could work somehow like this, for example:

Quote
Potteries - $6 Action - +3 Cards, You may pay an Action. If you did, +1 Buy, +$2.

This wording would be consistent with Storyteller, but still might be a little ambiguous on its own because Action is an overloaded word in Dominion (see Diadem). Actually, if you want to be consistent with Diadem, you may want to say "You may pay an unused Action", but I'm not sure that's necessary.

As for Action tokens, you could make them work just like Coin tokens from Guilds. Instead, you would have, during your Action phase, you may spend an Action token, for +1 Action. I think that is what you intended, though I'm not sure. I would think, though, to prevent some rules problems or confusion, you would want to limit when Action tokens can be spent to after completely resolving an Action, or whenever you "may pay an Action".

Unfortunately, by Executive changing Action tokens into Royal Carriage effects, the only reasonable time to be able to spend Action tokens is after completely resolving an Action, which doesn't work nicely with the "may pay an Action"/"use two Actions on this" cards. Honestly, though, Executive is overpowered and probably needs to change anyway. A single Executive and a single Bridge can end the game in just a few turns, as soon as you can get 7 or 8 Action tokens and collide Executive and Bridge.

Some interesting card effects here. Haven't even looked beyond the Action theme yet.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 08:43:40 pm by Shvegait »
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2017, 05:50:49 am »
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Some good observations, thank you all.

Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
This has serious problems with Crown. You are forced to play Crown, but it's your Action phase, so uh I suppose you can throne an Action. What if I draw more Treasures? Do I have to play them? Am I allowed to play them? And what if I discard some of the Treasures in my hand? Am I still required to play them?

Similar problems, to a lesser extent, occur with Counterfeit - did I play the counterfeited card and have thus fulfilled the requirement to play it, or does Consumerist line up the cards in your hand for play and you have to play them even when they stop being in your hand? And if I Counterfeit Rocks to gain a Silver in hand, what about that?

Unfortunately, I do not have a good idea of how to fix these issues while keeping the premise. Other than that, I would add that gaining a card at the start of your turn rather than at its end is usually considered a bonus, so I'm not sure the attack is strong enough to be worth it.
This may skew game mechanics too far, but:
"Each other player starts their next turn with a Buy Phase, in which they keep their hand revealed and play all Treasures. (They still have a Buy Phase after their Action Phase.)"
The potential this has is when a player can hit 8 but only with the actions he has. Instead he gets two buy phases with less than 8 to spend.

It's not at all clear what "you may use 2 actions on this" means. To me, it reads "you may play this card and have it consume 2 actions instead of 1", with no additional effect.

Do you actually mean "You may use an additional Action to play this card a second time"?

These cards give you an extra optional effect, if you pay Actions. Think of how Butcher lets you pay Coin tokens, and then that gives you an extra benefit. Here, you pay Actions for the extra benefit.

Take Potteries for example (using the version from the first post). When you play it, it's just like Hunting Grounds. Then, you can pay another Action (if you have one) for +1 Buy, +$2.

I find the wording on these cards a bit confusing, especially considering the explanation on how Action tokens work. The card texts themselves should be enough to explain how the card works. The alternating back and forth between 1st action part and 2nd action part seems too complicated. The concept of "using two actions" is certainly ambiguous and should be reworded.

I think the concept could work somehow like this, for example:

Quote
Potteries - $6 Action - +3 Cards, You may pay an Action. If you did, +1 Buy, +$2.

This wording would be consistent with Storyteller, but still might be a little ambiguous on its own because Action is an overloaded word in Dominion (see Diadem). Actually, if you want to be consistent with Diadem, you may want to say "You may pay an unused Action", but I'm not sure that's necessary.
How does this read:
"Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy +$2. You may use a second action on this to replay it."

As for Action tokens, you could make them work just like Coin tokens from Guilds. Instead, you would have, during your Action phase, you may spend an Action token, for +1 Action. I think that is what you intended, though I'm not sure. I would think, though, to prevent some rules problems or confusion, you would want to limit when Action tokens can be spent to after completely resolving an Action, or whenever you "may pay an Action".
I never did explain did I? Well this is exactly what I thought.

Unfortunately, by Executive changing Action tokens into Royal Carriage effects, the only reasonable time to be able to spend Action tokens is after completely resolving an Action, which doesn't work nicely with the "may pay an Action"/"use two Actions on this" cards. Honestly, though, Executive is overpowered and probably needs to change anyway. A single Executive and a single Bridge can end the game in just a few turns, as soon as you can get 7 or 8 Action tokens and collide Executive and Bridge.
Ah yes, I had kept my Canal in mind but I suppose a Bridge-Silver opening would be too fast. If I limited the number of Treasures it could discard to 2?
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2017, 07:45:20 am »
0

Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
This has serious problems with Crown. You are forced to play Crown, but it's your Action phase, so uh I suppose you can throne an Action. What if I draw more Treasures? Do I have to play them? Am I allowed to play them? And what if I discard some of the Treasures in my hand? Am I still required to play them?

Similar problems, to a lesser extent, occur with Counterfeit - did I play the counterfeited card and have thus fulfilled the requirement to play it, or does Consumerist line up the cards in your hand for play and you have to play them even when they stop being in your hand? And if I Counterfeit Rocks to gain a Silver in hand, what about that?

Unfortunately, I do not have a good idea of how to fix these issues while keeping the premise. Other than that, I would add that gaining a card at the start of your turn rather than at its end is usually considered a bonus, so I'm not sure the attack is strong enough to be worth it.
This may skew game mechanics too far, but:
"Each other player starts their next turn with a Buy Phase, in which they keep their hand revealed and play all Treasures. (They still have a Buy Phase after their Action Phase.)"
The potential this has is when a player can hit 8 but only with the actions he has. Instead he gets two buy phases with less than 8 to spend.
A hopefully simpler solution I thought of:

"While this is is play, when another player starts their turn, they reveal their hand and set aside all Treasure cards. Then they play the cards set aside in any order."

This still has weirdness with Crown, but the rules should be clear; any additional Treasures are not played. It nerfs Counterfeit since you don't get to trash anything, but that's fine.

On power level: I get that, but hitting $8 is only really important late-game; maybe the attack hurts very early as well if you would reach $5 with Action + Treasures. Mid-game, gaining the card and being able to play it the same turn may well be a bonus; providing virtual +buy may be a bonus too. Attacks that are sometimes beneficial can work (see Haunted Woods) and it's an interesting way to attack a player, but I think the other effects of the card are too weak.
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Shvegait

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2017, 09:09:17 am »
0

How does this read:
"Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy +$2. You may use a second action on this to replay it."

I think this might be OK, but I would drop the word "second" because it's confusing (or re-word depending on what you want the card to do). Consider the case where you do use a second action to replay it. Then you are faced with the same choice: "You may use a second action on this to replay it". But what does that mean now? Are you not allowed to, because it would be a "third" action? Or are you allowed to? For that particular play of the action card, it's only your "second" action. That's the reason I think something like "You may pay an Action to replay this" would be more clear.

Also keep in mind that as written, this lets you pick +3 Cards each time, if you want. Note that the first play is a Smithy, but each subsequent play is a Hunting Grounds (because you don't have to play another card from your hand for the effect). So this might be too strong, when there are cheap villages.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 09:12:22 am by Shvegait »
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2017, 10:43:19 am »
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How does this read:
"Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy +$2. You may use a second action on this to replay it."

You're running into a few of the troubles I tried to avoid with my Road (yes, this is shameless self-advertizing in a way, but maybe it'll be insightful, after all):
First, it's a hard to track how many buys and coins you have. Admittedly, my Road can't track the Actions it used, either - but here you're counting 3-dimensional: Coins, Buys AND Actions.
Second, my card isn't in the supply as a +1 Action token on it would draw your deck. That still works with Champion, though that's a bit harder to achieve and kinda over the top either way. Here it's worse, because the card actually generates unlimited amounts of coins and buys, which means putting the token here and drawing one=Victory.
Third, Road comes with a Village for the reason that it gets easier to balance without being useless from time to time.
Lastly, the wording: If I played this at first with a Herold, Throne Room or something like that, I never spent a "first" action on it, so may I actually use a "second" one?

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2017, 12:01:14 pm »
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OK, so the wording is still misleading. What it needs to convey is when you play the action, you have the option of using one extra action on it to replay it, but avoid 'replaying' it for such cases as Champion. Maybe...
"You may use an action to do this twice."

Tracking which effect you choose each time is a valid point. When it comes to the number of times you replay an action with Executive or Expert or if you 'use it twice' you can put an action token on the card for each extra time. An idea for indicating which effect you chose is put the token on the picture for one effect and on the text for the other. For some tracking cases (such as maybe KC-Pawn or Courtier) you just have to be creative.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2017, 01:38:41 pm »
0

Other suggestions:

"Choose one: A; B
You may pay/expend/use up/lose one of your Actions, to choose a second time (the choice may be the same)."

or:
"Choose one: A; B
If you have unused actions, you may choose a second time (the choice may be the same). If you do: -1 Action"

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2017, 12:47:19 pm »
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Appreciate the suggestions, but I think I like the 'do this twice' format the best. It already exists on Remake. And I think it should go first, so that running through the effects in order one doesn't think they can use an extra action to then choose two more times. So like this:
Quote
Action. You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to 2 more than the trashed card; or look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. 5 cost.
Canal - +1 buy. You may use an extra action on this. If you do, cards everywhere cost 2 less this turn, but not less than 0. For the first time Canal is played on your turn, when you gain a card, you may gain a Treasure costing up to 4. 5 cost.
Colliery - +1 card. You may use an extra action to do the following twice, or two extra actions for three times: +2 coins, discard a card. 4 cost.
Glassworks - You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: return up to 2 cards from your hand to the piles they came from, and you may gain a card costing exactly the sum of the returned cards; or draw up to 6 cards in your hand. 5 cost.
Potteries - You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, +2 coins. 6 cost.
Does this make complete sense? Do they need the 'extra' there?

And two other proposed tweaks:
Quote
Cameo - Treasure, +$2. Take an Action Token. You may put a card from your hand on top of your deck. $4 cost.
Generally more playable.

Quote
Patency - When you first gain this, set aside 2 different Action cards other than Patency from the Supply costing up to a total of $8. When you play this, it becomes the action on the left until it is resolved, then, unless this has left play, the one on the right. $7 cost.
Wording adjustment that should play durations and reserves in a balanced way. Put a Reserve on the left and the right card never gets played as Patency goes to the Tavern mat, leaving play.
If a Duration is the left card, then we follow on from what was discussed earlier with Royal Carriage's interaction with durations; it is resolved after the immediate turn's effects are completed, not the later ones. Patency will then become the right card, thereby cancelling the next turn effects. So no shenanigans with Tactician or Hireling.
And if either are on the right, they play normally.
Well, that was wordy... I hope you get it.
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Shvegait

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2017, 08:42:38 pm »
+1

Appreciate the suggestions, but I think I like the 'do this twice' format the best. It already exists on Remake. And I think it should go first, so that running through the effects in order one doesn't think they can use an extra action to then choose two more times. So like this:
Quote
Colliery - +1 card. You may use an extra action to do the following twice, or two extra actions for three times: +2 coins, discard a card. 4 cost.
Does this make complete sense? Do they need the 'extra' there?

A problem with this wording is that it's not clear what happens if you choose not to use an extra action. I know you intend it to mean that you do the part that follows a single time, but it's not clear from the wording. The way it reads, you don't actually get any benefit from playing the card at all unless you spend additional actions. Something like "Otherwise, do it once" is needed, which could be in parentheses.

I like Asper's suggestion of "If you have unused Actions, you may ... -1 Action". It doesn't require any additional rules and it's not too wordy. The only problem is that it doesn't work nicely with every possible clause you have after it, but if you have something like discard a card, it's pretty clean.

How about this?
Quote
Colliery - +1 Card, +1 Action. Do this three times: If you have any unused Actions, you may discard a card, for -1 Action, +$2.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2017, 03:47:45 pm »
0

Updated the OP with wording changes and hopefully clearer commentary on each card.

Appreciate the suggestions, but I think I like the 'do this twice' format the best. It already exists on Remake. And I think it should go first, so that running through the effects in order one doesn't think they can use an extra action to then choose two more times. So like this:
Quote
Colliery - +1 card. You may use an extra action to do the following twice, or two extra actions for three times: +2 coins, discard a card. 4 cost.
Does this make complete sense? Do they need the 'extra' there?

A problem with this wording is that it's not clear what happens if you choose not to use an extra action. I know you intend it to mean that you do the part that follows a single time, but it's not clear from the wording. The way it reads, you don't actually get any benefit from playing the card at all unless you spend additional actions. Something like "Otherwise, do it once" is needed, which could be in parentheses.

I like Asper's suggestion of "If you have unused Actions, you may ... -1 Action". It doesn't require any additional rules and it's not too wordy. The only problem is that it doesn't work nicely with every possible clause you have after it, but if you have something like discard a card, it's pretty clean.
I went with do it once, since as you said the format wouldn't work very well for all the multiple action cards, so I decided to keep them all the same. That said, it could work (now I notice Diadem says 'unused actions'). Here they both are:
Quote
Colliery - +1 card. You may do the following once, use an extra action to do it twice, or two extra actions for three times: + $2, discard a card.
Quote
Colliery - +1 Card, +1 Action. Do this three times: If you have any unused Actions, you may discard a card, for -1 Action, +$2.

Quote
Potteries - Action, You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, + $2.
Quote
Potteries - choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, + $2. If you have any unused actions, you may choose again for -1 action.
I could even try the second use format again:
Quote
Potteries - +4 cards. If you have any unused actions, you may do: -1 action, +1 buy, + $2.
I would appreciate opinions as to what format is best.

And so this isn't all just a discussion on how to word cards properly, I'll put the question out:
Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
...
This may skew game mechanics too far, but:
"Each other player starts their next turn with a Buy Phase, in which they keep their hand revealed and play all Treasures. (They still have a Buy Phase after their Action Phase.)"
The potential this has is when a player can hit 8 but only with the actions he has. Instead he gets two buy phases with less than 8 to spend.
A hopefully simpler solution I thought of:

"While this is is play, when another player starts their turn, they reveal their hand and set aside all Treasure cards. Then they play the cards set aside in any order."

This still has weirdness with Crown, but the rules should be clear; any additional Treasures are not played. It nerfs Counterfeit since you don't get to trash anything, but that's fine.

On power level: I get that, but hitting $8 is only really important late-game; maybe the attack hurts very early as well if you would reach $5 with Action + Treasures. Mid-game, gaining the card and being able to play it the same turn may well be a bonus; providing virtual +buy may be a bonus too. Attacks that are sometimes beneficial can work (see Haunted Woods) and it's an interesting way to attack a player, but I think the other effects of the card are too weak.
I realised making Consumerist start turns with buy phases gets really wonky with Villa, so before bothering to get the wording sussed, is his attack too weak based on faust's reasoning?
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2017, 04:33:29 am »
+1

Having got some good playtesting done, I thought I'd post some updates. Here are the main ones:

  • I've put all the cards that use multiple actions under the type 'Multi'. It's a clean solution that makes wording much shorter and simpler. All Multi cards call for -1 action to do extras in various ways, and the rule simply is you can't do such effects of you have none left.
  • Advancing Village (was 5 cost 1 card 2 actions take token) now gives tokens when you gain cards. It seemed better to not simply give tokens out on a simple cantrip, but to make it a bit more challenging to get them.
  • Cameo similarly gives its token if you do top-deck a card. It's bumped up to 5 like the other silver+ Treasures.
  • Glassworks now trashes cards rather than returns them to the Supply. It actually progresses to the game end now, and plays nicely.
  • Consumerist is now called Hawker, actually a thing, and reads:
    Quote
    each other player reveals their hand and sets aside all Treasure cards. They take another Buy Phase after their next one with them, with +1 buy. At the start of your next turn: + $3.
  • Entrepreneur now gives +1 buy on pile empty. It basically takes what Labourer ​tried in being a delayed Market, so Labourer can now go.
  • Executive is now called Magnate:
    Quote
    discard up to 2 cards. Take an action token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an action token, instead of +1 action you get: +1 card, and you may play an Action card from your hand twice.
  • Patency is now Patent, again actually something real, and it needed​ to become a Multi. You choose one set aside Action, and can then do the other for -1 action.
  • Revolters was weak, and easily stopped by BM. It's now:
    Quote
    At the start of each other player's Buy Phase during their next turn, they get -1 action. If they have no actions left, they gain a Curse. At the start of your next turn, +1 action.
    It doesn't quite seem right as is, it'll need a bit more work.
  • Steelworks is now:
    Quote
    draw up to 8 cards, then discard down to 5; or reveal your hand, and if there are... 2 or more Actions, +2 actions; 2 or more Treasures, +1 buy; 2 or more Victories, + $2.
  • Textile Mill is now:
    Quote
    +2 cards and gain a Silver to hand; or look at the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any number, then put the rest back with any number from your hand in any order.

And there are outtakes:
Labourer (+1 action, +1 buy, if 3 or more actions have been used this turn +1 card +1 coin) didn't look very interesting alongside Entrepreneur, as explained above.
Taskmaster (+1 card +4 actions, on buy draw 2 less cards for next hand) lost its appeal once I started thinking action tokens.
Toxic Waste (while in play cards not in supply cost 1 less, when other player plays a card costing 1 or less they gain Curse) tried too hard to be different, and was potentially too strong. I could make Revolters a much simpler curser.

The OP has had an overhaul to make it a hopefully simpler read.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 05:22:10 pm by Aquila »
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2017, 04:59:19 pm »
+1

I haven't really read through everything, but kudos for updating an expansion based on playtesting! That doesn't happen a lot.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2017, 04:48:07 am »
0

Some more definite updates.

Just by putting each Multi with Fishing Village it was clear which ones looked balanced and which weren't:
  • Colliery was insane, but removing the +card has reined it in. I'm now trying it as an overpay card, $2 +1 action token per 1 overpay. Looking fine at the moment.
  • Glassworks got decks going too fast, with trash and good draw together. It's an outtake.
  • Potteries was so good it's silly. Straight to the outtakes.
  • Textile Mill was in the same boat as Potteries, with +2 cards +2 coins (in the form of to hand silver) together. But with Potteries gone, I'm trying +3 cards on it instead.
No problems with the others yet.

And Hawker's been weak. I've got an idea in line for a fix, but it hasn't been tested yet.

And three promising new cards:

Quote
Incinerator - Action, $3 cost.
+1 buy
Trash up to 2 cards from your hand. If you trashed a Curse, trash up to 2 more cards from your hand and + $1.

Quote
Innovator - Action Multi, $5 cost.
Choose one, or do both in either order and -1 action:
+ $3 and play up to three Treasures from your hand; or pay all your $ to buy a card immediately, gaining it to your hand.

Quote
Locusts - Action, $4 cost.
+1 card
+1 action

Set this aside. Trash a card from your hand and one from the Supply costing up to $5 other than Locusts.
At the end of your turn, trash this and gain a Locusts.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2017, 02:10:34 pm »
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Incinerator - Interesting. Reminds me of Plastic Brain's Medicine. It might be a tad too good with curses or a bit swingy.

Innovator - IDK about the -action, but the rest should be just gaining. "Spend all of your $, then gain a card to your hand costing up to the total $ spent." I don't think you need the option to do only one, right now the card seems too good. I could really be underestimating the -action though.

Locusts - Looks really good. A cantrip trasher for 4, that gives you a free $5? Sure, it has limited uses but it's a guaranteed opener. Even with 5, you need to grab one to at least contest the pile.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2017, 06:22:17 pm »
+1

Innovator - IDK about the -action, but the rest should be just gaining. "Spend all of your $, then gain a card to your hand costing up to the total $ spent." I don't think you need the option to do only one, right now the card seems too good. I could really be underestimating the -action though.
Playtesting hasn't been that thorough like this, but it's come a long way to get to something close to balanced. It's fair at buying Treasures, as you lose out on total coins for the Buy Phase, it's buying Actions that's been the trouble. You either need enough virtual coin played before and 2 actions left, or enough Treasure in hand and 3 actions, to play the Action card of choice straight away. Both involve a bit more than just a Village, so it's not so scary an opener.

I think you have a card similar to this on your thread, one called Munitions, that buys a card like this onto your deck for $3 cost. Maybe I should test it for strength.

Locusts - Looks really good. A cantrip trasher for 4, that gives you a free $5? Sure, it has limited uses but it's a guaranteed opener. Even with 5, you need to grab one to at least contest the pile.
Hmm, it doesn't gain the card costing up to 5 but trashes it from the Supply. That would of course be too strong.
Did you maybe misread it because it says '...costing up to 5' and not '5 or less'?
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2017, 08:17:58 pm »
+1

Here's a more boring version that doesn't need a Village in the kingdom to work (which would be my main critizism of the "spend several actions" mechanic, and one of the reasons my Road always comes with a Village):

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Obvious comparisons are Minion and Royal Seal. Royal Seal can use its effect later in your turn and can't be drawn dead, but it's topdecking is quite a bit weaker, lacking both the implicit +1 Card and the implicit +1 Buy.

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2017, 08:52:28 am »
0

About Multi cards, I am against the subtype. You don't need a new type for each mechanic, intrigue didn't come with "choosing" type cards. You say it's for simplicity but it doesn't make things simpler. Even if you want to keep the type, I'd change it.

Regarding the multi cards, I think you should have -1 Action tokens. Whenever you would have to spend an action (other than playing a card), if you have no actions you may take a -1 Action token. These are basically the same as debt. You can't take more -1 Action tokens if you have some and you have to play them off with Actions.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2017, 09:42:38 am »
+2

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Without support from other +Action +Money cards, one copy of this card gains you a card costing up to $2, which seems *really* weak for a $5.  Multiple copies let you gain a bigger card, but at the cost of also copper-stuffing yourself.  I think at least it needs "You may".
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2017, 09:56:07 am »
+3

I'm not getting why you would ever buy Banner. It does nothing for you at all on play, compared to Embargo's $2. And then, while Embargo can hurt or shut down an opponent's strategy if it's different from yours, Banner only affects the first time they purchase the card, and even then instead of giving them a Curse, it gives them a one-shot terminal.

Or you could put it on the pile you want to buy to make it only cost $4 instead of $5 or something, maybe that was the intent? Although then it's just a terminal Copper. I'm not sure when you would ever actually want to spent the money and action space to get one.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2017, 10:10:57 am »
0

Here's a more boring version that doesn't need a Village in the kingdom to work (which would be my main critizism of the "spend several actions" mechanic, and one of the reasons my Road always comes with a Village):

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Obvious comparisons are Minion and Royal Seal. Royal Seal can use its effect later in your turn and can't be drawn dead, but it's topdecking is quite a bit weaker, lacking both the implicit +1 Card and the implicit +1 Buy.
This is coming back to how it first was, though without the Treasure playing. I hadn't considered that was why it was too good, so I will give this a go. Thanks.

I have looked at Town and Road, and they are good. Champion as you say is the main snag, so my only real question with them is, is a Town-Page opening broken?

Just saw your last post, agree with 'you may'.

About Multi cards, I am against the subtype. You don't need a new type for each mechanic, intrigue didn't come with "choosing" type cards. You say it's for simplicity but it doesn't make things simpler. Even if you want to keep the type, I'd change it.
So what are your thoughts on the Gathering type? I find the text on the cards to be self-explanatory, but I suppose it's easier for players to see 'gathering' and think 'we put VP tokens on this pile then'. This is what led me to do the Multi type. It's easier for newer players to read 'Multi' and think 'this is a card we can use more than 1 action on' than read the text. I can also save card space by not having to write common rules about applying -1 action on each card.

But, having said all of this, what you say next is interesting:
Regarding the multi cards, I think you should have -1 Action tokens. Whenever you would have to spend an action (other than playing a card), if you have no actions you may take a -1 Action token. These are basically the same as debt. You can't take more -1 Action tokens if you have some and you have to play them off with Actions.
Make this turn strong with actions to sacrifice the next? I think you can implement this mechanic in a Reserve:

Quote
Textile Mill
Do these in either order: +3 cards; look at the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any number, then put the rest back with any number from your hand in any order.
Put this on your Tavern mat.
-
At any time during your Action Phases, you may discard this from your Tavern mat for -1 action.
If this works it can save using tokens at all.

@Gendo: I've only just got to playtest banner, I'll reply later if it doesn't work. Your thoughts are fair; I guess ultimately the card came from groping with the idea of putting cards on different Supply piles. This was kind of a final possibility before fully concluding the idea doesn't work at all.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 04:05:17 pm by Aquila »
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2017, 11:27:12 am »
0

Here's a more boring version that doesn't need a Village in the kingdom to work (which would be my main critizism of the "spend several actions" mechanic, and one of the reasons my Road always comes with a Village):

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Obvious comparisons are Minion and Royal Seal. Royal Seal can use its effect later in your turn and can't be drawn dead, but it's topdecking is quite a bit weaker, lacking both the implicit +1 Card and the implicit +1 Buy.
This is coming back to how it first was, though withou the Treasure playing. I hadn't considered that was why it was too good, so I will give this a go. Thanks.

I have looked at Town and Road, and they are good. Champion as you say is the main snag, so my only real question with them is, is a Town-Page opening broken?

First of all, I see no good reason to open with Town in this case. Except maybe that you don't mind losing Town to Warrior as much, and Road can't be trashed. For a moment after writing this I thought that costing Road at 3$ might solve the issue, but either you'll just get it after you have Champion out, or a player might try to drain the pile before you get one, at which point you also get one, and Warrior does what it does best, namely ruin the game by trashing your key cards. If I'm at that, I'll admit that I hate Warrior with passion, so Road/Champion never shows up for me as I have come to veto the Page line.

Champion is part of a card that, in my opinion, is a terrible play experience either way. Call it apologetic, but I can't help but feel this makes the problem less dire. However, not everybody sees it that way. So, if you DO like the Page line, does Road ruin the game? I don't think so. First of all, all Road does is draw your deck. But drawing your deck isn't exactly something only Road can do. True, you can draw a deck of any size with a single Road. But how many times do you have to spend 4$ to make it halfway likely to draw one regularly? It's a super strong combo - but Champion is super strong regardless of Road, and as Road does NOTHING but draw, perhaps you can get something better instead? As I said, drawing your deck isn't exactly impossible without Road, so maybe I can have all of this with a deck that's better in the meantime, possibly gets me to Champion faster? Even if Road WAS a must-buy in Page games, just like with Chapel, there's still plenty of wrong decisions to make besides this one. Road/Champion is not Rebuild. I hope this sheds some light on my view on this.

The only thing that irks me is that, technically, Road allows for infinite turns. To fix this, I could add a condition to the wording: +2 Cards. If you drew any cards this way, put this in your hand."

GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2017, 11:30:59 am »
+1

Wanderers feel like they should be events. I like the idea of a rotating event pile, though. But making them events follows naturally from the rules that exist, instead of thinking of them as a new type of card that "can't be gained or trashed".
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2017, 12:43:20 pm »
0

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Without support from other +Action +Money cards, one copy of this card gains you a card costing up to $2, which seems *really* weak for a $5.  Multiple copies let you gain a bigger card, but at the cost of also copper-stuffing yourself.  I think at least it needs "You may".

It certainly should be "you may". An alternative would be a version that takes debt:

+1 Action
+2$
(If you have no <dept>,) you may gain a non-victory card costing up to 8$ to your hand. Take <1> per $ the card costs.

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2017, 03:58:31 pm »
0

Wanderers feel like they should be events. I like the idea of a rotating event pile, though. But making them events follows naturally from the rules that exist, instead of thinking of them as a new type of card that "can't be gained or trashed".
Yes, I do agree with this, because the Wanderers are a bit too swingy as they are. Making them rotate so each player can access them during a full round of turns is fairer. The current cards would need a revamp, and, well, what would they do that current events don't? Or would they still be bought? Could they be things to use actions on, or could they be passive effects? I have these ideas going around at the moment.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2017, 05:06:17 am »
+2

So what are your thoughts on the Gathering type? I find the text on the cards to be self-explanatory, but I suppose it's easier for players to see 'gathering' and think 'we put VP tokens on this pile then'. This is what led me to do the Multi type.
The Gathering type exists only so that Defiled Shrine can refer to these cards. Unless you need to refer to such cards specifically, there is no need for an extra type.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2017, 08:38:43 am »
0

So what are your thoughts on the Gathering type? I find the text on the cards to be self-explanatory, but I suppose it's easier for players to see 'gathering' and think 'we put VP tokens on this pile then'. This is what led me to do the Multi type.
The Gathering type exists only so that Defiled Shrine can refer to these cards. Unless you need to refer to such cards specifically, there is no need for an extra type.
Ditto. Cards should not have a type solely based on their on-play effect.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2017, 08:53:06 am »
+1

So what are your thoughts on the Gathering type? I find the text on the cards to be self-explanatory, but I suppose it's easier for players to see 'gathering' and think 'we put VP tokens on this pile then'. This is what led me to do the Multi type.
The Gathering type exists only so that Defiled Shrine can refer to these cards. Unless you need to refer to such cards specifically, there is no need for an extra type.
Ditto. Cards should not have a type solely based on their on-play effect.

Reserve says hi. Though I'm on record as stating that reserve really shouldn't be a type. Or at the very least, Distant Lands shouldn't be one. The rest of them should have probably been reactions. But as it stands, reserve means nothing other than "has the on play effect of moving to your tavern mat in addition to other effects."
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2017, 04:18:31 pm »
0

So what are your thoughts on the Gathering type? I find the text on the cards to be self-explanatory, but I suppose it's easier for players to see 'gathering' and think 'we put VP tokens on this pile then'. This is what led me to do the Multi type.
The Gathering type exists only so that Defiled Shrine can refer to these cards. Unless you need to refer to such cards specifically, there is no need for an extra type.
Ditto. Cards should not have a type solely based on their on-play effect.

Reserve says hi. Though I'm on record as stating that reserve really shouldn't be a type. Or at the very least, Distant Lands shouldn't be one. The rest of them should have probably been reactions. But as it stands, reserve means nothing other than "has the on play effect of moving to your tavern mat in addition to other effects."
Yeah, Reserve type is a stretch. But I think we can all more or less agree that Multi should not be a type.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2017, 12:48:58 pm »
+1

Great cards, especially the playtesting&updating and the Action token concept. It could be implemented via a one-shot non-Supply Reserve card but the token is simpler in practice.

About Advancing Village, I like the cap but think that it still so good that it might have to cost 4. Its main advantage over Coin of the Realm is that the later frequently stays on the Tavern mat when you shuffle wheras Advancing Village accumulates tokens. Because of that you might even open with it in some Kingdoms.

Incinerate does not need an extra buy. All the trashers that do have one, Forager, Trading Route and Salvager, are also (conditional) payload cards which can make use of the extra buy whereas a multitrasher rarely does. I like that Incinerate makes Cursers slightly weaker.

Locusts runs into scaling issues. Assuming that every player only buys one Locusts you can use it on average 5 times in a 2P game, 3.3 times in a 3P game and so on. So perhaps use 4x # players Locusts per pile in a game?
It is hard to judge though what x should be in the case of an 'on average x times and then self-destruct' cantrip trasher that costs 4.
I like how thematic the card is with the pile eating.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 01:04:16 pm by Q »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2017, 08:09:56 am »
+1

About Advancing Village, I like the cap but think that it still so good that it might have to cost 4. Its main advantage over Coin of the Realm is that the later frequently stays on the Tavern mat when you shuffle wheras Advancing Village accumulates tokens. Because of that you might even open with it in some Kingdoms.
Agree with everything here. First I compared AV to Village, sometimes it looked worse when it gave no immediate actions, but in balance an action token is better than a +action. Then that it can give 2 of them makes it good in the games you can do so. Yes, it feels like it should cost more, and testing showed no problems with that.

Incinerate does not need an extra buy. All the trashers that do have one, Forager, Trading Route and Salvager, are also (conditional) payload cards which can make use of the extra buy whereas a multitrasher rarely does. I like that Incinerate makes Cursers slightly weaker.
Take the +buy off and it looks weak compared to Chapel. It isn't there to try making it a later payload card, trying to get the $1 often wouldn't be a good idea. It's there so players can simply buy a Curse if they want to try accelerating their trashing, especially for the games with no cursing Attack, and if not it gives reason to choose it over Chapel in such a game, something for it to do after the deck is trimmed. It was +action and gain a Curse on buy at first, but a) this set didn't need an extra non-terminal and b) who wants to be forced to get junk with their trasher?

Locusts runs into scaling issues. Assuming that every player only buys one Locusts you can use it on average 5 times in a 2P game, 3.3 times in a 3P game and so on. So perhaps use 4x # players Locusts per pile in a game?
It is hard to judge though what x should be in the case of an 'on average x times and then self-destruct' cantrip trasher that costs 4.
I like how thematic the card is with the pile eating.
Too many Locusts I feared would empty the piles too fast, but that was during the first version when they gained and trashed on play rather than end of turn. They may be slow enough now to merit several. They could always be a 12 card pile like Port though, so everyone can get an even share of them in any size of game.


And I'll put this one out as well - I hope thanks to Theta's post above I have revived Potteries. Playtesting at present seems to show as much:
Quote
Dairy - Action Reserve, $5 cost.
+2 cards
+1 buy
+ $2

At the start of your Buy Phase, put this on your Tavern mat.
-
At any time during your Action Phases, you may discard this from your Tavern mat and -1 action.
I put Textile Mill in this format, but it's a really tight squeeze on cardspace. This feels similar to Wine Merchant but plays differently enough. For the issue of theme, I renamed it Dairy, you send the produce to your tavern.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 05:08:02 pm by Aquila »
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2017, 03:02:33 pm »
0

Incinerate does not need an extra buy. All the trashers that do have one, Forager, Trading Route and Salvager, are also (conditional) payload cards which can make use of the extra buy whereas a multitrasher rarely does. I like that Incinerate makes Cursers slightly weaker.
Take the +buy off and it looks weak compared to Chapel.
[/quote]
Doesn't everything look weak compared to Chapel?
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2017, 06:01:42 pm »
+1

I doubt that Incinerate makes you want to buy Curses. It is a net extra trashed card plus a Coin at the cost of having to draw an additional, dead card and match it with Incinerate.
Note that the net extra card that you can trash if you trashed a Curse is only something you opt to do if you have Incinerate and 4 junk cards in your hand and this no earlier than after the 2nd shuffle. You rarely have lot of nonterminal draw at this point to increase your handsize so you are more likely to draw Incinerate with only 2 or 3 junk cards.

This is why Incinerate is probably more of a hedge against Cursers than a card that incentives you to buy Curses.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2017, 12:28:56 pm »
0

I'm not getting why you would ever buy Banner. It does nothing for you at all on play, compared to Embargo's $2. And then, while Embargo can hurt or shut down an opponent's strategy if it's different from yours, Banner only affects the first time they purchase the card, and even then instead of giving them a Curse, it gives them a one-shot terminal.

Or you could put it on the pile you want to buy to make it only cost $4 instead of $5 or something, maybe that was the intent? Although then it's just a terminal Copper. I'm not sure when you would ever actually want to spent the money and action space to get one.

I'm going to take out the problematic Banner. Seeing that it's a variant on a principle that has come up more than once on this forum, that of putting a supply card onto a different pile, I thought it good to write my thoughts against it for any fan card creators who come to the same idea. With the introduction of split piles I anticipate this being more likely.
Banner was this:
Quote
Banner - Action Victory, $4 cost.
Return this to the supply. Move a Banner onto a different Supply pile that doesn't have a Victory on top. Cards on that pile cannot be gained or bought before it is.
-
When you buy this, gain the card under it.
-
1VP
It wouldn't just change 5-costs into 4, but any cost; Platinum, and even Fortune and the other Debt-cost cards could all be bought for $4, with the intention that the player would get a junk card with it for balance. With hindsight, Banner isn't really a junk card. You can use an action to remove it from your deck and put it on a pile irrelevant to the game, even if that's Curse, and you can then run the risk of giving the same power to your opponents.

Besides this, you could use it aggressively to try denying piles to your opponents, like those that cost cheaper or those that depend on being bought like Mint. This denies the pile to yourself too, which you may not always want to work around.
I'd like to use a card mocked up on these forums as a reference to what would happen with a card that makes large on this denying effect, being of less benefit to the buyer's deck:


Both Rabbits and Banner have in-built ways to still allow gaining cards from the piles they sit on. With a card that doesn't, a game with it and no extra buys would see any chosen pile completely denied, taken out the game. No player will want to use a precious buy and turn on that card just to open up the cards underneath, as it will not progress the deck's payload.

Rabbits' impact on a game will vary depending on the presence of other sources of +buy. If there are no others, the only way to gain a card from a pile it sits on, and avoid the total denial problem, is by playing another Rabbits. This boils down to two outcomes: either there are few Rabbits out because few are bought, and a player is likely denied a key card to their strategy because they don't have a Rabbits on a turn they can afford it; or there are many out because many are bought, and that leads seamlessly to my conclusion. And if there are other buys, Rabbits become more like attempts at junking the opponent, but that eventually come right back at you.

My conclusion with all such cards that move onto other piles is this: they may add extra variety to games, but, with the greatest respect to kru5h and his Rabbits, I do not personally feel they are a welcome addition. They take away from all the central strategy elements of the game and instead make it more a mindless process of 'buy whatever's available and see what happens'.

And from there I find it's impossible to balance Banner. No cost is fair yet effective, for if it's too low it's too powerful at letting players buy whatever they want, if it's too high you can totally eliminate more piles, and if it's in the middle like at $4, as Gendo said it has little point.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 05:31:01 pm by Aquila »
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Holger

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2017, 06:17:33 am »
0

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Without support from other +Action +Money cards, one copy of this card gains you a card costing up to $2, which seems *really* weak for a $5.  Multiple copies let you gain a bigger card, but at the cost of also copper-stuffing yourself.  I think at least it needs "You may".

It certainly should be "you may". An alternative would be a version that takes debt:

+1 Action
+2$
(If you have no <dept>,) you may gain a non-victory card costing up to 8$ to your hand. Take <1> per $ the card costs.

This version is far too strong; it's better than a Grand Market and a Capital (minus 1 buy) put together on one card.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2017, 09:21:47 am »
0

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Without support from other +Action +Money cards, one copy of this card gains you a card costing up to $2, which seems *really* weak for a $5.  Multiple copies let you gain a bigger card, but at the cost of also copper-stuffing yourself.  I think at least it needs "You may".

It certainly should be "you may". An alternative would be a version that takes debt:

+1 Action
+2$
(If you have no <dept>,) you may gain a non-victory card costing up to 8$ to your hand. Take <1> per $ the card costs.

This version is far too strong; it's better than a Grand Market and a Capital (minus 1 buy) put together on one card.

I admit that the +2$ together with the gaining to hand are too much and one should be dropped.

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2017, 12:38:47 pm »
0

I'm finding it hard to decide which Innovator variant is better at the moment, the one I have on the OP with Treasure play and needing 2 actions, or Asper's variant not involving debt at $4 cost. Neither show themselves imbalanced, but the former is certainly hard to work out when throned.

But one card I have plans to change is Expert. Look at the card and you might at first think 'that's nice, a really flexible card', like me. But, what does it actually add to a game? How does it impact a kingdom/board? Someone else's first impression of the card was 'boring' and now I see why - it's nearly always just a strictly better version of another card, nothing different.

So I thought about fusing it into Patent, so that it could become thematic:

Quote
Patent - Action, $6 cost.
Choose one: +1 card, +1 action, +1 buy or + $1 , then treat this as the card on your Patent mat.
-
When you first gain this, choose an Action card from the Supply costing up to $4 that is not on any other player's Patent mat. Put it on your Patent mat.
Functionally, it might play better at $7 cost allowing $5-costs on the mat. More usability, but maybe more problems with it.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 12:14:43 pm by Aquila »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2017, 05:13:59 pm »
0

More updates which may be of interest:

Hawker interferes with Buy Phases following a different premise:
Quote
Hawker - $5 cost
Until your next turn, each other player may only buy 0 or 2 cards during their Buy Phases.
At the start of your next turn:
+1 buy
+ $2
The vanilla might be on the weak side for $5. Or it could be balanced like this for $4, a bit more playtesting needed yet. It does do more consistent damage though, unlike before.

Magnate and Advancing Village have had a swap around in how they gain action tokens:
Quote
Magnate - $5 cost
While this is in play: the first two times you gain a card, take an action token; when you spend an action token, instead of +1 action play an Action card from your hand twice.
Quote
Advancing Village - $3 cost
+1 card
+1 action

You may discard a card. If you do, take an action token.
Each can now be cheaper. +cards on Magnate-d tokens seems unnecessary by how it now plays out, but it may be that its gaining and playing tokens are to be separated so that you choose one or the other. It can collect quite a horde of them.
AV is kind of boring, and I may add some kind of on-trash ability to make it interesting; first that comes to mind is gain a card costing up to $4.

Blueprints is queer and doesn't add anything interesting to the game after all, returning Victories to the Supply. It's really narrow. And Incinerator doesn't seem to quite make sense, and it's likewise narrow. So I'll take those out and add this:
Quote
Blueprints - $3 cost
+1 buy
+ $1

Trash a card from your hand. + $1 per $2 it costs. If it isn't an Action or Treasure card, trash up to 2 more cards from your hand.

Revolters can give an action token on its second effect instead of +1 action, don't see why not. It should help the card more.

And I think I have a solution coming together for the Wanderers, but I'll leave that for later.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 12:09:01 pm by Aquila »
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Holger

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2017, 09:35:58 am »
0

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Without support from other +Action +Money cards, one copy of this card gains you a card costing up to $2, which seems *really* weak for a $5.  Multiple copies let you gain a bigger card, but at the cost of also copper-stuffing yourself.  I think at least it needs "You may".

It certainly should be "you may". An alternative would be a version that takes debt:

+1 Action
+2$
(If you have no <dept>,) you may gain a non-victory card costing up to 8$ to your hand. Take <1> per $ the card costs.

This version is far too strong; it's better than a Grand Market and a Capital (minus 1 buy) put together on one card.

I admit that the +2$ together with the gaining to hand are too much and one should be dropped.

Even if you drop the "to hand", it's still close to strictly better than Grand Market.
If you only drop the +$2 instead, it's far better than Capital when used on non-Victory cards, but can't be used on Provinces, which might or might not be balanced.
Either way, the card seems too similar to an existing card to me; thus I'd rather stay closer to Asper's original card. What about adding a Storyteller-like clause to it?

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
You may play a Treasure from your hand. Pay any amount of $. You may gain a card to your hand costing at most the amount you paid.

This would be close to a non-terminal Armory even if you only play a Silver, and potentially far better with more virtual $.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 09:37:11 am by Holger »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2017, 04:30:21 am »
0

The new Wanderers

Randomiser card:
Quote
Shuffle the Wanderers pile at the start of each game. During their Action Phase a player may use an action to play the top Wanderer, moving it to their play area until they are returned to the bottom of the pile at the stated time.
They are a pile of landscape cards that players may or may not want in their games, and for those who want it sometimes there can be this randomiser card. Whether the general rule of only 2 events/landmarks/Wanderers piles would be followed or if they would be separate from this I'm undecided.

The cards:
Quote
Warband - put 2 cards from your hand onto your deck. Each other player with more than 4 cards in hand does the same. Return: end of your turn.

Quote
Roadshow - each player draws up to 6 cards in hand, and looks through their discard pile and puts a card from it into their hand. Return: end of your turn.

Quote
Circus Troupe - each player reveals their hand to the player on their left, and they choose a card. Each player then draws a card and puts the chosen card onto their deck. Return: end of your turn.

Quote
Forger - move a Copper from the Copper pile onto a different Supply pile of your choice. Cards under it cannot be gained or bought before it is. Return: end of your turn.
Yes, I said what I did earlier about moving cards onto other piles, but most of the problems come from the feature being usable multiple times and throughout the game when on a kingdom card. On this Wanderer I think it works.

Quote
Scrounger - each player trashes up to 2 cards from their hand. Return: end of your turn.

Quote
Caravaneer - while this is in play, if a player has at least $2 unspent at the start of Clean-up, they draw 2 extra cards for their next turn's hand. Return: start of your next turn.

Quote
Secret Dealer - each player puts their deck into their discard pile and gets +1 buy at the start of their next turn. Return: end of your next turn.

Quote
Roadblock - while this is in play, after cards are drawn or gained into a player's hand other than at Clean-up, they are immediately discarded. Return: end of your next turn.

Quote
Royal Visit - while this is in play, after cards are discarded or trashed from a player's hand other than at Clean-up, they are returned to their hand. Return: end of your next turn.

Quote
Refugees - +1 action. Each player takes an action token. Reveal the Wanderer that is second from top. Return: end of your turn.
You can keep it constantly revealed, so you could move the top card up to make the second card's instructions visible.

So this set is all about card movement, including several things you couldn't see on an Action card. Each one will have a very different impact depending on its timing and the kingdom, to hopefully provide many new experiences.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 03:28:24 am by Aquila »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2017, 11:00:56 am »
0

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Without support from other +Action +Money cards, one copy of this card gains you a card costing up to $2, which seems *really* weak for a $5.  Multiple copies let you gain a bigger card, but at the cost of also copper-stuffing yourself.  I think at least it needs "You may".

It certainly should be "you may". An alternative would be a version that takes debt:

+1 Action
+2$
(If you have no <dept>,) you may gain a non-victory card costing up to 8$ to your hand. Take <1> per $ the card costs.

This version is far too strong; it's better than a Grand Market and a Capital (minus 1 buy) put together on one card.

I admit that the +2$ together with the gaining to hand are too much and one should be dropped.

Even if you drop the "to hand", it's still close to strictly better than Grand Market.
If you only drop the +$2 instead, it's far better than Capital when used on non-Victory cards, but can't be used on Provinces, which might or might not be balanced.
Either way, the card seems too similar to an existing card to me; thus I'd rather stay closer to Asper's original card. What about adding a Storyteller-like clause to it?

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
You may play a Treasure from your hand. Pay any amount of $. You may gain a card to your hand costing at most the amount you paid.

This would be close to a non-terminal Armory even if you only play a Silver, and potentially far better with more virtual $.

Saying this was almost strictly better than Grand Market is like saying Candlestick Maker was close to strictly better than Market. You can't just ignore a +1 Card on a nonterminal Action card. That's not to say I don't like the Treasure suggestion.

Q

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2017, 04:59:29 pm »
0

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Without support from other +Action +Money cards, one copy of this card gains you a card costing up to $2, which seems *really* weak for a $5.  Multiple copies let you gain a bigger card, but at the cost of also copper-stuffing yourself.  I think at least it needs "You may".

It certainly should be "you may". An alternative would be a version that takes debt:

+1 Action
+2$
(If you have no ,) you may gain a non-victory card costing up to 8$ to your hand. Take  per $ the card costs.

This version is far too strong; it's better than a Grand Market and a Capital (minus 1 buy) put together on one card.

I admit that the +2$ together with the gaining to hand are too much and one should be dropped.

Even if you drop the "to hand", it's still close to strictly better than Grand Market.
If you only drop the +$2 instead, it's far better than Capital when used on non-Victory cards, but can't be used on Provinces, which might or might not be balanced.
Either way, the card seems too similar to an existing card to me; thus I'd rather stay closer to Asper's original card. What about adding a Storyteller-like clause to it?

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
You may play a Treasure from your hand. Pay any amount of $. You may gain a card to your hand costing at most the amount you paid.

This would be close to a non-terminal Armory even if you only play a Silver, and potentially far better with more virtual $.

Saying this was almost strictly better than Grand Market is like saying Candlestick Maker was close to strictly better than Market. You can't just ignore a +1 Card on a nonterminal Action card. That's not to say I don't like the Treasure suggestion.
You potentially gain a card to your hand, hence Holger's comparison to Grand Market.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 05:01:36 pm by Q »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2017, 05:47:25 am »
0

It would be great if I find this Innovator to be balanced:
Quote
Innovator - $4 cost
+ $2
You may play a Treasure from your hand. You may pay any number of $ to gain a card costing the amount to your hand.
Doing all your buying in the Action Phase might be too broken with Mission, so it may need Black Market's wording.

And here are some ideas that seem so simple I wouldn't be surprised if I saw them on these forums somewhere.
A better Canal:
Quote
Canal - $5 cost
+1 buy
Cards (everywhere) you haven't gained copies of this turn cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

The more interesting AV:
Quote
Advancing Village - Action Reaction, $4 cost
+1 card
Take an action token. You may discard a card, to take another action token.
-
When this enters your hand, you may play it immediately. (Discard it at your next Clean-up.)

And this Workshop variant:
Quote
Steelworks - Action Attack, $5 cost.
Gain a card costing up to $4; or if you have used 3 or more actions this turn (counting on this) it may cost $5. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes one costing the same as the card you gained, and discards the rest.
The current Steelworks would be called Glassworks if this turns out well. I was looking for something that would work as a Conspirator variant counting used actions during a turn, and saw how a Workshop could potentially do. Fairly boring by itself, I then added the Attack.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2017, 10:23:27 am »
+1

Implementing -1 action as a State
There are several things to keep in mind when you want a card to have -1 action, and I think having a State (6 copies, 1 per player) makes things work almost perfectly:

Quote
Exhaustion - State
When you next have actions left, return this and -1 action.

You need to explain that you must have actions left for it to work, and you don't want to take up lots of card space on it. But even better, the absence of Villages isn't an issue, because you just lose the action whenever you can.

So the changes to my cards would be:

Quote
Colliery - Action, $2+ cost
+ $2
Discard a card.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do this again.
-
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Take an action token per $1 overpaid.
After resolving this, you can use an action token (same manner as CotR) to remove Exhaustion.

Quote
Dairy - action, $5 cost
+2 cards
+1 buy
+ $2

Take Exhaustion.
This is a bit beastly when Throned.

Quote
Innovator - Action, $4 cost
+ $2
Play up to 3 Treasures from your hand. You may buy a card immediately; if you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to gain the bought card to your hand.
Perhaps the 'bigger' Innovator could work like this. You can acquire immediate power, but it's only useable if you have 2 actions left afterward.

Quote
Refinery - Action, $5 cost
Choose one: trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card; or look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
Quote
Glassworks - Action, $5 cost
Choose one: draw up to 8 cards in hand, then discard down to 5; or reveal your hand, and if there are…
2 or more Treasures, +1 buy;
2 or more Actions, +2 actions;
2 or more Victories, +$2.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
Quote
Textile Mill - Action, $5 cost
Choose one: +3 cards; or look at the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any number, then put the rest back with any number from your hand in any order.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
The choice element still works nicely on these.

Quote
Revolters - Action attack duration, $4 cost
Each other player gets -1 action at the start of their Buy Phase next turn, but not less than 0. If they have 0 left, they gain a Curse; if there are no Curses left, a Copper.
At the start of your next turn, take an action token.
This one can't change. I don't think it's possible to make a -1 action Attack without making it hit at the Buy Phase (and Exhaustion always hits the Action Phase) because of a certain Enchantress. Such an Attack played with her every turn would lock everyone else out of playing any Actions altogether.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2017, 10:19:41 am »
+1

I've overhauled the OP again with updates, and I've done some mock-ups. Here are the changes explained:

Quote
Exhaustion - State
When you next have unused actions and it's your Action Phase, return this and -1 action.
Finalising what Exhaustion actually does. It only hits at the Action Phase.


Advancing Village doesn't have the option to discard on play, for simplicity and balance. It also can't be instantly played if it enters hand during your Action Phase, as making terminal draw non-terminal is crazy. It also calls for a little bit more play skill.


No changes to Blueprints, a neat enough trasher for the set. There's been a curious Actions and Treasures sub-theme developing, so it does fit.


No mechanical change to Canal, this hasn't been imbalanced yet though I've still to put it with Cornucopia.


Colliery needed to change when it took on Exhaustion. You can choose to carry Exhaustion over to your next turn to wait and see if you draw any Actions to play, and if you do you can spend an action token then to play them. If not, you keep your tokens. With the overpay it had, you could get too big a store of them, and that meant too many early Provinces.

Here's a new idea, making Colliery the top of a split pile. I had the idea of this Treasure, since action tokens could make it work well. Tried it, but it was too much like a cheap early Platinum as a plain kingdom card. The fix I came to was this:

Quote
New Element - $5 cost.
When you play this, it's worth $5 -$1 per card in your hand, down to $0.
-
You may only buy this if you have a Colliery in play. When you buy this, return the Colliery to the Supply.
It seems to gel together with Colliery fine, I just wonder if the bottom part couldn't be better.


Cameo takes on the name Diary, it seemed better thematically. No change otherwise, it works well.


Entrepreneur is great, I see no need to change it.


Quote
Glassworks - Action, $5 cost.
Draw up to 8 cards in hand, then discard down to 5.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to reveal your hand and gain a card costing exactly $1 per type (Action, attack etc.) in your hand.
I did rename Steelworks to Glassworks, and with the Exhaustion change it needed a rebalance. You could do the draw and discard and make it non-terminal if you then revealed 2 Action cards, that as well as the possibility of +coins and buys. Too much power. Now you have to do the sift first, and the second part works with types in a different, hopefully interesting way.


Hawker makes the 0 or 2 cards buying work across the turn, because of Black Market and Innovator below.


Quote
Innovator - Action, $5 cost.
Choose one: + $2, play up to 3 Treasures from your hand, and you may buy a card, gaining it onto your deck; or +2 cards.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to do the other choice.
Dairy has gone for now, because I noticed how similar it was to Innovator (and hence I felt better about renaming Cameo to Diary, would be silly to have both names). This gets exactly the same vanilla with Exhaustion, though the buy is a little different. Perhaps now there's too much going on and it's too complex a card?


As Locusts are now a hex, I renamed the card Pigeon. No other change.


I renamed Refinery Potteries. It's prettier and feels a bit more Dominion-y. It's the same, complex like Innovator.


Quote
Revolters - Action Attack Duration, $4 cost.
Until your next turn, if each other player has 1 or fewer unused actions at the start of their Buy Phase, they gain a Curse; or if there are no Curses, a Copper.
At the start of your next turn, take an action token.
A wording change for Revolters, including giving out Coppers when the Curses run out. Diadem isn't attacked by this anymore.


Quote
Steelworks - Action Attack, $5 cost.
Gain a card costing up to $4; or if you have used 3 or more actions this turn it may cost $5.
Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of their deck; if one costs the same as the card you gained (they choose one if there are 2 or more), they may trash it or gain a Curse.
Steelworks's attack looks deeper into the other players' deck, 3 cards that are put back afterwards, and gives the option to gain a Curse instead of trash the card, because Knight attacks aren't popular.


No changes to Textile Mill. It gives a lot of control over your cards, but Exhaustion is a significant setback.


Tutor's discard and draw now applies just to cards neither Action nor Treasure, not 'Victory or none of these types'. It's shorter, simpler, and saves potential tracking issues like with played then discarded Nobles.


No change to Wastelands yet. In some games it's added a very nice rewarding challenge, trying to keep your deck small enough by the game end. But sometimes someone concentrating on them will 'seal themselves in' and make themselves unable to do any more until the game ends. The other players need only wait until they get more points before ending, a pretty boring wait.


As cards have left, I thought of new ones and given them a little testing.


Quote
Night Shift - Night Duration, $5 cost.
Take Exhaustion; if you do, and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.
Thinking of Exhaustion has really helped me think of simpler cards that use them. How about a really good one that takes it for the start of your next turn? From there, this just followed on. It has such a natural feel to it, right down to its theme.


Quote
Parade - Victory, <8> cost.
Worth 8VP - VP equal to the difference in the number of Actions and Treasures in your deck.
-
You may only buy this if you have the same number of Actions and Treasures in play.
This one accentuates the Actions and Treasures thing in this set. There are Action-heavy engine strategies, and there's big money, but this encourages a balance of the two.

And finally, a big group that makes even more of Actions and Treasures, and tries out a bunch of different mechanics:


Quote
Components - Action Traveller, $3 cost
Return this and another Components from your hand to the Supply. If you do return 2 Components, gain a Prototype.
-
When you gain this, gain a Silver onto your deck.
A Traveller that upgrades Treasure Map style. Though you may choose to buy this just for a top-decked Silver at the same cost.

Quote
Prototype - Action Traveller, $5* cost.
Take two action tokens.
Trash a Treasure from your hand. Gain a Treasure costing up to $3 more to your hand.
You may discard this. If you don't, then at Clean-up exchange this for a Patent, Spinning Mule or Steam Engine.
(This is not in the Supply.)
A card that discards itself on play, so it can be played several times in the same turn. This mechanic can run into several issues, but Prototype should be safe from most of them. It has no issues with tracking, and it's impossible to make infinite turns with this as it's a non-Supply card.
It's only a 3 stage Traveller as Components are hard enough to upgrade. But the final step is a choice of three.
Quote
Patent - Action, $6* cost.
Choose one: +1 card, +1 action, +1 buy or + $1, then this becomes the card on your Patent mat.
-
When you first gain this, put an Action card from the Supply that isn't on another player's Patent mat onto your Patent mat.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Yes, Patent has moved. It created too much first-buyer advantage as a Kingdom card. Here, it can afford to go for any card cost as the timing and difficulty to get 1 of them balances it out, and the Patent mat banning can be fair as if there's a good target for it, probably one of the alternative upgrades will be good too, Steam Engine. So a Patent race won't leave the loser hopeless.

Quote
Spinning Mule - Action, $6* cost.
+1 card
+1 action

While this is in play, after you play a Treasure, +1 card.
(This is not in the Supply.)
The Treasures upgrade. It started as a permanent duration but you could get it so soon in some games that it dominated. You get the cards after resolving for no other reason than working better with New Element above.

Quote
Steam Engine - Action, $6* cost.
While this is in play, the next 3 times you gain a card take an action token, and when you spend an action token, instead of +1 action you may play an Action card from your hand twice.
(This is not in the Supply.)
And here's Magnate, moved, renamed and buffed a little. When it was a kingdom card, really you just wanted one of them. I already had Spinning Mule as an idea I was testing, and when I noticed how it upgraded Treasures similarly to this with Actions, this whole group happened.

And that's the lot. Wanderers I'll do later. (Is this still tl;dr?)
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2017, 06:53:53 am »
+2

Aquila, you have very interesting and original ideas. Such shall be graced with my coveted commentaries!

The action tokens and Exhaustion state are cool concepts and I can see them work out in general, even though Exhaustion is a pretty harsh restriction in engines but shouldn't matter too much in the early game where most cards you play are treasures.

I'll comment on your cards individually and also point out some wording issues.

Advancing Village
: This introduces the action token and its benefits perfectly. The card might have some accountability issues with its reaction but you made them rare enough and that's fine for a fan card. I find it hard to assess its power. Doesn't it suck when you draw it during your action phase? It's just a cantrip when you play it, then. And in an engine, where most cards are drawn during your action phase (as opposed to only the 5 cards in your starting hand) and you rarely have any spare actions, this should be hardly better than Village. I see it on the same power level as Ghost Town. What makes this cost $4?

Blueprints: Seems like a decent card. It needs a "(rounded up)" or "(rounded down)" clause.

Canal: This is a great Bridge variant that can't be used to drive piles in a megaturn, cleverly implemented, powerful but limited. I like it.

Colliery/New Element: These two have a cute synergy but I fell like it's not enough to make New Element good. It's even weaker than Poor House with its very harsh penalty for any cards in hand (no just treasures). How many games did you play with it where you found, "wow, this is a power card that needs to cost $5"?
Besides, you can improve the wording of both cards. Colliery should say "you may take it to play this again", otherwise it's unclear what "do" refers to.
New Element could go with a sleek "You can only gain this if you have a Colliery in play, and when you do, return it to the Supply." It also doesn't need "When you play this" in its instructions. For reference, look at Fool's Gold, or any other kingdom treasure for that matter; they don't need that clause to say what they're worth.

Diary: Doesn't seem strong to me but I probably can't accurately asses how much an action token it worth. Design-wise it's very elegant, though.

Entrepreneur: I like how this card becomes like five times more powerful when its pile is empty, but the case where the player who wins the split dominates the game can be mitigated by the other players. Another clever idea.

Glassworks: Why does it care about card types? Since it has nothing to do with your set's theme, this seems like an unnecessary limitation to its gaining power. Its draw is not even stronger than Embassy and taking Exhaustion is a harsh penalty. To compensate for that, Glassworks could care for differently named cards instead.

Hawker: If an opponent only has 1 buy (which is most of the early game, sometimes the whole game) you can lock them out of the game with an egine that plays a Hawker every turn. That would be very bad. Also there's an edge case with Villa: Your opponent has Hawker in play. You buy a Villa, return to your action phase but then don't play the Villa and end your turn so you can't buy another card. What happens? Do you have to return the Villa? That would make no sense. The problem with this kind of card that wants to restrict players to certain actions is that in Dominion there's usually another option that's somehow ambiguous and allows them to exploit a loop-hole.

Innovator: A very potent and flexible engine enabler and component! I find it difficult to fully wrap my head around it so I'll need to play with it to find out how to best use it.

Night Shift: I like this card a lot! Zero actions is an adequate drawback for an extra turn. You were bold to put this card out here so shortly prior to Nocturne's release. I can imagine there being a similar card in it. There might even be a State that does the exact same thing as Exhaustion.

Parade: This rewards a "good stuff deck" probably more than any other card. My intuition says 8 VP per card (whose cost you can spread over two turns) is enough to forego building a treasure-less deck. But you need a lot of buying power to keep up with the engine that reliably gains 1-2 Provinces each turn, if there's one available.

Pigeon: Eh, doesn't thrill me particularly. From an thematic perspective, I would rather have the card named "Pigeons" and show a swarm of those gray-black city dwellers, than the charming bird in the current artwork.

Potteries: Seems decent but is it really that strong? I would have said it's one of the weaker $5-cards.

Revolters: I have several problems with this. First, its wording is ambiguous. "If each player has..." sounds like a condition referring to all other players counted together. Instead it should simply say "if another player has". Second, it's a curser for mere $4, and a Village on your next turn. On top of that, it gives Coppers once the Curses are out. There's only one official card that does that, and probably for good reason; it's the strongest attack in Dominion and it costs $5. Revolters seems broken to me. I advise you reword it as follows:
Until your next turn, if another player has used up their actions at the start of their Buy Phase, they gain a Curse. At the start of your next turn, take an action token.
This is simpler, unambiguous, and more balanced.

Steelworks: A gainer that gets very powerful in engines and has a brutal attack as well. This is vastly overpowered and my initial suggestion is to drop the cursing part. I would also give your opponents less options to make the card less wordy:
Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of their deck, trashes one costing the same as the card you gained and puts the rest back in any order.

Textile Mill: It's a fine Smithy variant regarding its power level. But I'm afraid there will be way too much looking and sorting going on (I hated that in my first games with Secret Chamber) so it will become obnoxious.

Tutor: This is probably your most balanced card. A premium engine enabler for $3 whose slowness should balance it somewhat.

Wastelands: This card's theme is very cleverly implemented. I like how it takes late greening to another level. Still, 15 cards total might be a bit harsh. OTOH, 5VP for $5 is a lot and it takes some skill to estimate if going for Wastelands is gonna work out in a game, as well as to make sure you can take the weight of a high green card densitiy in your deck towards the end. If you're going for Wastelands, watch out for Mountebank, Greed, Embassy, Messenger, Governor etc.

Now I feel quite exhausted myself. Gonna look at the Travellers another day.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2017, 01:26:54 pm »
0

Colliery seems a lot like like the card Donald has described Diadem had started out as.

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2017, 05:26:12 pm »
+1

Wow, what great feedback. Thank you!

Advancing Village: This introduces the action token and its benefits perfectly. The card might have some accountability issues with its reaction but you made them rare enough and that's fine for a fan card. I find it hard to assess its power. Doesn't it suck when you draw it during your action phase? It's just a cantrip when you play it, then. And in an engine, where most cards are drawn during your action phase (as opposed to only the 5 cards in your starting hand) and you rarely have any spare actions, this should be hardly better than Village. I see it on the same power level as Ghost Town. What makes this cost $4?
It started out being able to react all the time, and it just looked very scary with terminal draw, especially seeing how other Villages are drawn dead. I suppose that is its forte over the others, so I may carry on with it, but I just fear it's too automatic. Like with all of these cards, concentrated playtesting will tell.

Blueprints: Seems like a decent card. It needs a "(rounded up)" or "(rounded down)" clause.
Just adding (round down) to what I have is in-keeping with the 2E Bishop, I'll go with that.

Colliery/New Element: These two have a cute synergy but I fell like it's not enough to make New Element good. It's even weaker than Poor House with its very harsh penalty for any cards in hand (no just treasures). How many games did you play with it where you found, "wow, this is a power card that needs to cost $5"?
Besides, you can improve the wording of both cards. Colliery should say "you may take it to play this again", otherwise it's unclear what "do" refers to.
New Element could go with a sleek "You can only gain this if you have a Colliery in play, and when you do, return it to the Supply." It also doesn't need "When you play this" in its instructions. For reference, look at Fool's Gold, or any other kingdom treasure for that matter; they don't need that clause to say what they're worth.
Being a Treasure, New Element can be played after all the other Treasures have been (except Fortune and sometimes Bank). It's nearly always yielded at least $3; I've hardly ever trashed with a deck going for this pile, and the Coppers really help. But maybe this is a disadvantage in itself, and it merits a cheaper cost. Perhaps you should be able to keep your Colliery.
I like the wording changes, except for 'playing' Colliery again. You could end up playing one of them several times over, especially with Champion. So it needs one of these:
'Discard a card for +$2. If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to play this again'
+$2. Discard a card. If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to discard a card and + $2.
Basically, the latter lets you get the coins even if your hand is empty, and the first doesn't.
Though Asper's comment is interesting. I've always seen this as changing a card in your hand into a Silver, and if it would be too similar to Diadem I would choose the second of my suggestions so it can only work twice in one play.

Glassworks: Why does it care about card types? Since it has nothing to do with your set's theme, this seems like an unnecessary limitation to its gaining power. Its draw is not even stronger than Embassy and taking Exhaustion is a harsh penalty. To compensate for that, Glassworks could care for differently named cards instead.
Truth be told it's yet to be properly tested in this form, but it certainly needed a change. Indeed looking for types isn't in-keeping with this set. I chose it because it holds potential to gain expensive cards when put in the right kingdom, which looked appealing. But yes, how often would you want to go Exhausted to gain a ~$5 when you only have a 5-card hand? Maybe it isn't the best second part.
Edit: Or could it start non-terminal then become terminal if you gain something?

Hawker: If an opponent only has 1 buy (which is most of the early game, sometimes the whole game) you can lock them out of the game with an egine that plays a Hawker every turn. That would be very bad. Also there's an edge case with Villa: Your opponent has Hawker in play. You buy a Villa, return to your action phase but then don't play the Villa and end your turn so you can't buy another card. What happens? Do you have to return the Villa? That would make no sense. The problem with this kind of card that wants to restrict players to certain actions is that in Dominion there's usually another option that's somehow ambiguous and allows them to exploit a loop-hole.
Yes, all good points. Perhaps the best fix could be something like this?
Until your next turn, when another player buys their first card during their turn, they gain a card costing up to $2.

Pigeon: Eh, doesn't thrill me particularly. From an thematic perspective, I would rather have the card named "Pigeons" and show a swarm of those gray-black city dwellers, than the charming bird in the current artwork.
Cantrip trashers don't feel that thrilling, I agree. The Supply trashing was the fun bit, some interesting interactions with some piles. It's emptying out other cards as this pile empties itself, and if you don't like the speed of that just make yours hit Silvers. It just needed a benefit to the buyer and well the trash just seemed to fit best. Yeah, I guess a monarch could buy a flock of pigeons for himself, rather than one carrier pigeon.

Potteries: Seems decent but is it really that strong? I would have said it's one of the weaker $5-cards.
I noted that Donald tried a card that got anything from the discard, and found it too strong to do. I think it might have been on a card doing Militia as well? When it worked well, like getting a Gold, I kinda felt what Donald meant, but on a terminal $5 the effect should be balanced.

Revolters: I have several problems with this. First, its wording is ambiguous. "If each player has..." sounds like a condition referring to all other players counted together. Instead it should simply say "if another player has". Second, it's a curser for mere $4, and a Village on your next turn. On top of that, it gives Coppers once the Curses are out. There's only one official card that does that, and probably for good reason; it's the strongest attack in Dominion and it costs $5. Revolters seems broken to me. I advise you reword it as follows:
Until your next turn, if another player has used up their actions at the start of their Buy Phase, they gain a Curse. At the start of your next turn, take an action token.
This is simpler, unambiguous, and more balanced.
All sound words here, great wording, though I'd like it to hit with 1 action left if someone just plays pure money (a newer player may be scared into it). But would that bump it up to 5 or make it too plain strong? This is almost an Attack Village after all.

Steelworks: A gainer that gets very powerful in engines and has a brutal attack as well. This is vastly overpowered and my initial suggestion is to drop the cursing part. I would also give your opponents less options to make the card less wordy:
Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of their deck, trashes one costing the same as the card you gained and puts the rest back in any order.
Yes, your outside perspective has helped me see sanity here. The cursing option was really shooting myself in the foot.

Textile Mill: It's a fine Smithy variant regarding its power level. But I'm afraid there will be way too much looking and sorting going on (I hated that in my first games with Secret Chamber) so it will become obnoxious.
True. Card control isn't for everyone. I suppose by and large this isn't an easy set to play.

Food for thought here.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 05:43:45 pm by Aquila »
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2017, 12:52:26 pm »
0

Nice cards, would play, 10/10.

A few comments:

Quote
Canal - Action, $5 cost.
+1 buy
This turn, cards you haven't yet gained a copy of cost $2 less, but not less than $0.
This can be Throned for great cost reduction, but the once-per-name clause limits the abuse. You may want to consider "<separating horizontal line> While this is in play, cards [...]", in the style of Highway. You did mention Bridge, so probably you're already aware of the abuse potential.

Quote
New Element - $5 cost.
When you play this, it's worth $5 -$1 per card in your hand, down to $0.
-
You may only buy this if you have a Colliery in play. When you buy this, return the Colliery to the Supply.
If I play two Collieries, what do I return to the Supply? Suggestions "When you buy this, return a Colliery from play to the Supply." Alternatively, "When you buy this, return all Collieries from play to the Supply." — then you can only buy one per turn (edge case Villa). Maybe it should say "all your Collieries"—though the only card you can play outside of your own turn is Caravan Guard, IINM.

Quote
Glassworks - Action, $5 cost.
Draw up to 8 cards in hand, then discard down to 5.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to reveal your hand and gain a card costing exactly $1 per type (Action, attack etc.) in your hand.
If I have Village and Militia, does 'Action' count once or twice? That is, do I gain a $2- or $3-cost card? There's probably not room on the card for any clarifying text.

The same wording is unambiguous on Courtier because no single card has the same type twice.

Quote
Night Shift - Night Duration, $5 cost.
Take Exhaustion; if you do, and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.
If you already have Exhaustion, do you take an extra turn? I think not.

Quote
Prototype - Action Traveller, $5* cost.
Take two action tokens.
Trash a Treasure from your hand. Gain a Treasure costing up to $3 more to your hand.
You may discard this. If you don't, then at Clean-up exchange this for a Patent, Spinning Mule or Steam Engine.
(This is not in the Supply.)
If you draw your deck, including two of these and a treasure, and you have your +1 card token on this, you can trash the Copper, Silver and Gold piles. That seems a bit explosive; but on the other hand, this scenario isn't something you achieve on shuffles one through four, I guess. I would encourage playtesting with this scenario in mind to evaluate how broken it is.

(I didn't read the wall-of-text cards.)
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2017, 04:50:29 am »
0

Thanks jonas.

Quote
Canal - Action, $5 cost.
+1 buy
This turn, cards you haven't yet gained a copy of cost $2 less, but not less than $0.
This can be Throned for great cost reduction, but the once-per-name clause limits the abuse. You may want to consider "<separating horizontal line> While this is in play, cards [...]", in the style of Highway. You did mention Bridge, so probably you're already aware of the abuse potential.
Throning it is fine. The worst abuse you could do is with different alt VP cards.
... Which at first seems safe, until I remember the Castles. I'm thinking it would take sufficiently long setup to save this from being broken, and instead a good combo?

Quote
New Element - $5 cost.
When you play this, it's worth $5 -$1 per card in your hand, down to $0.
-
You may only buy this if you have a Colliery in play. When you buy this, return the Colliery to the Supply.
If I play two Collieries, what do I return to the Supply? Suggestions "When you buy this, return a Colliery from play to the Supply." Alternatively, "When you buy this, return all Collieries from play to the Supply." — then you can only buy one per turn (edge case Villa). Maybe it should say "all your Collieries"—though the only card you can play outside of your own turn is Caravan Guard, IINM.
Oh yeah, that's true. I may end up changing the bottom bit anyway.

Quote
Glassworks - Action, $5 cost.
Draw up to 8 cards in hand, then discard down to 5.
If you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it to reveal your hand and gain a card costing exactly $1 per type (Action, attack etc.) in your hand.
If I have Village and Militia, does 'Action' count once or twice? That is, do I gain a $2- or $3-cost card? There's probably not room on the card for any clarifying text.

The same wording is unambiguous on Courtier because no single card has the same type twice.
I meant to say 'different type', but it never happened. Oops.

Quote
Night Shift - Night Duration, $5 cost.
Take Exhaustion; if you do, and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.
If you already have Exhaustion, do you take an extra turn? I think not.
The intention is not, 'if you do' I hope makes that clear. Every card should check you take Exhaustion before giving bonuses, so they're never free.

Quote
Prototype - Action Traveller, $5* cost.
Take two action tokens.
Trash a Treasure from your hand. Gain a Treasure costing up to $3 more to your hand.
You may discard this. If you don't, then at Clean-up exchange this for a Patent, Spinning Mule or Steam Engine.
(This is not in the Supply.)
If you draw your deck, including two of these and a treasure, and you have your +1 card token on this, you can trash the Copper, Silver and Gold piles. That seems a bit explosive; but on the other hand, this scenario isn't something you achieve on shuffles one through four, I guess. I would encourage playtesting with this scenario in mind to evaluate how broken it is.
Prototype isn't a Supply card, so it should never see any token on it.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2017, 02:36:04 pm »
0

Thanks jonas.
You're more than welcome :)

Throning [Canal] is fine [but what about Castles?]
Even if you KC a Canal you only have 4 buys, so it's not bonkers broken, merely very, very good—but if you can KC it once you can probably do it thrice. But that's a 3-card combo (Canal, Castles, TR/KC/RC/&C) which is merely very, very good, so nothing to worry about I'd say.

I might be taking a minority position, but I don't think strategic gravity wells* are a bad things per se. I think what makes many strategic gravity wells unappealing is that they make games formulaic. I don't think this would happen with Canal.

(*) cards or combos which you basically have to build your deck around when they show up, and such that you evaluate all other cards only in relation to the key card/combo—Rebuild, Page, Cultist, Hermit/Market Square and (sometimes) Tournament are examples.

My conclusion: I successfully brought to your attention something you were already aware of ;)

I meant to say 'different type' [on Glassworks], but it never happened. Oops.
'Glad I could help :) and I think 'different type' is an elegant solution.

[The intention is that Night Shift doesn't give you an extra turn if you already have Exhaustion. I hope 'if you do' makes that clear.]
I think all other cards that take Exhaustion say "if you don't have Exhaustion, you may take it and <do conditional effect>". I think consistency is good—deviation raises the question "why?", and the only answer I can come up with that I like is "all the consistent phrasings are awful", which I think is not true. I think the following is fine: "If you don't have Exhaustion, take it; if you did and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one."

The thing that pushes the wording in a clunky direction is that's it's tricky to elegantly convey the parenthesis structure of "if condition 1 then ((do thing 1) and (if condition 2 then do thing 2))".

Alternatively, you could say "if (condition 1 and condition 2) then (do thing 1 and do thing 2)"—i.e. "if the previous turn wasn't yours and you don't have Exhaustion, take Exhaustion and take an extra turn after this one".

Note that this way, if you want to play Night Shift just to take Exhaustion but for no "other" benefit, you can only do so if the last turn wasn't yours—that is, condition 2 also has to be true for you to do thing 1. That seems about as strategically relevant as the addition of "you may" to Throne Room, probably even less.

It could matter if you could be possessed in such a way that the turn prior to your possessed turn was yours, but I think that's impossible.

Prototype isn't a Supply card, so it should never see any token on it.
Derp.
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