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Author Topic: Dominion: Revolution  (Read 5691 times)

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Aquila

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Dominion: Revolution
« on: March 10, 2017, 03:30:48 pm »
+11

You could call this a fan set, as it's kind of designed to be such. The reality is it's an exploration into different mechanics. I made these cards through being an enthusiastic observer of the design of Dominion, not because I have a play group who wanted them. That said, most of the cards have been tested to some extent.

Revolution takes the actions one needs to play Action cards and makes them more like a currency. You can collect tokens to get +actions whenever you need them, and you can also be 'owing' an action, so you have flexible control of your Action phase. There are also Treasure focuses, and the mix of the two aims to make a set that gets players to adapt to each individual turn carefully, as they can be very different.

Mechanics: Action tokens, a -1 action State, a set of cycling start-of-turn effects.
There are also Duration cards, Night cards, and something like a Traveller.

TL;DR
Here's the set so far in miniature. Click a card to enlarge it.

Kingdom cards:






A shuffled pile of 12 landscape cards that give their effects immediately at the start of each player's next turn, then change for the next one the following turn. More rules later:


(A note on the use of internet images: the only intended purpose of these card mock-ups is to present the ideas on this forum thread in an easy to understand format. I do not intend to print them out or post them anywhere else online. If I later do, I will create my own artwork.)


Explaining the new mechanics

Action tokens - there are cards that let you collect Action tokens. They're just like coin tokens from Guilds, only when you spend one, you get +1 Action. You can do this in the same manner as Coin of the Realm, after playing an Action or before you play any during your Action phase. When you spend one, you can keep it in the play area after the Action you last played, for ease of tracking your action count, then put it back in the box at Clean-up.

The -1 action State, Exhausted

Quote
Exhausted - State
When you next have unused actions during your Action Phase, immediately return this and -1 Action.
There would be 6 of these IRL, 1 per player. Some cards in this set take Exhausted as a setback to being extra powerful, so the Action cards effectively use 2 actions. After taking Exhausted, whenever you next have actions left during your Action phase, this gets immediately returned and you have 1 less action. If you end your Action phase still having Exhausted, it will stay over to next turn, and be returned at the start to take away your starting action.
You'll notice all of the cards that take Exhausted check that you do take it. This is because of Thrones - you can't take more than 1 Exhausted to get the extra effects more than once.

Cycling start-of-turn effects, Weather
They are a pile of 12 landscape cards which you shuffle before each game, and keep face down except the top one. Before each of his turns, the player going first discards the top Weather (just as you discard Boons), and each player gets the effect of the Weather immediately at the start of their next turn (they do not get it for extra turns through Outpost or its variants), before any other 'at the start of your turn' effects. The Weather for next turn is turned over at the same time, so players know what's coming. When the pile is empty, it is reshuffled into a new pile: the last card of the pile is set aside, then discarded when the new deck is made.
Including them in a game would follow the same rules as Shelters, Platinum and Colony; if the first card randomly selected is a Revolution, or the majority of them are Revolutions, include them. (Though of course they're fan cards, and you can use them anyhow.)

So here they are:

Quote
Sunny - +1 Card, +1 Action
An extra action for a bigger Action phase. +1 card to help more.
Quote
Stormy - take Exhausted
The opposite, -1 action. But if you're already Exhausted from last turn you get nothing.
Quote
Cloudy - +2 Cards, put 2 cards from your hand onto your deck
Card movement will always have an effect on your turn. This gets you to plan a bit.
Quote
Windy - discard 2 cards, +2 Cards
A Cellar fixed at 2 cards. Could be good, could be bad.
Quote
Rainy - if you have 4 or more cards in your hand, take one and put it anywhere in your deck
1 less card in your hand by Secret-Passaging something.
Quote
Showery - +1 Buy, + $1
Buying vanilla.
Quote
Snowy - this turn, cards (everywhere) cost $1 more
And the opposite, sort of.
Quote
Dry - this turn, cards are gained onto your deck
Mostly good, but bad for Victories.
Quote
Foggy - +1 Card, take Diverted, put a card from your hand onto Diverted
Diverted comes up later as well. Basically, whatever non-Victory you buy for the rest of this shuffle will miss the next shuffle, and the card you put on Diverted from hand will miss the next shuffle as well. It's a negative.
Quote
Mild - no effect
And two blank cards to make things, well, milder.
Quote
Changing - set this and the next two Weathers aside, then discard them. For this turn, each player gets both Weathers in the order they were set aside in
This one basically makes two Weathers appear at once, to make things a bit more different each game. You don't know what's coming, though. There are 12 cards, but with this the pile will run through on average 10 turns.

Example:

Alice starts her turn with a hand of Village, Colliery, 2 Estates and a Copper. She plays Village, drawing a Copper. Then she plays Colliery, getting + $2 and discarding an Estate. She chooses to take Exhausted; because she currently has 1 action left, Exhausted is immediately returned and she now has no actions left. Continuing the instructions, she discards the other Estate and gets a total $4. Entering her Buy phase, she has $6 to spend.

Bob has a hand of Colliery, Smithy, 2 Estates a Copper. He hasn't used the action token he got from when he bought the Colliery. Like Alice, he plays the Colliery, taking Exhausted and discarding both Estates for $4. He had no actions left when he took Exhausted, so it stays. He next chooses to spend his action token for +1 action, placing it to the right of his Colliery. But he can't play his Smithy; Exhausted takes priority and is returned, leaving him again with 0 actions. He really should have played them the other way round... If he did, he would have Exhausted carry over to the start of next turn, which would hurt or not depending on whether he draws any Actions.


INDIVIDUAL ANALYSIS

I explain each card, then give my thoughts on positives (+) and negatives (-) in its design.


Quote
Advancing Village - Action Reaction, $3 cost.
+1 Card
Take an Action token.
-
When this enters your hand outside of your Action Phase, you may play it immediately. (Discard it at your next Clean-up.)
Basically, this becomes a Village it enters hand outside of your Action phase (so including methods that aren't drawing too. There are plenty of ways to do this in the set, including of course the most likely case of drawing it at Clean-up), as you will start your next turn with the starting action and an action token. But even better than a Caravan Guard variant giving +1 action at the start of your next turn, you can use the action token on a later turn if you wish. Played in your Action phase, it has the lesser ability to convert a spare action into a token, or be a plain cantrip.
+: I feel it achieves difference with a Village card, in that, for one thing, it's good to open with it.
-: It's not a direct variant on any other card, so rules complications could deter people, such as interaction with Teacher tokens. Whatever the rules are for Caravan Guard should also apply to this.


Quote
Barometer - Action Duration, $4 cost.
Now and at the start of your next turn: name a type (Action, Attack, etc). Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Put the cards with the named type back in any order and discard the rest.
This one is yet to be tested. A sifter that lets you adapt your next draw to what you need now. And what you choose next turn won't always be the same as what you choose this turn.
+: It seems highly diverse in its utility yet not so much that it's useful in every kingdom. It would enhance this set very nicely if testing shows no problems.
-: Having 2 sort effects to do, and 2 decisions to call, it may be slow to play. It could also suffer from the same weakness as Navigator in being non-terminal. Hopefully the next turn effect balances this out.


Quote
Canal - Action, $6 cost.
+1 Buy
This turn, cards you haven't yet gained a copy of cost $2 less, but not less than $0.
Bridge variant. All Supply piles cost less until something is gained from them, no matter when and how many Canals you play or Throne during your turn.
+: Simple to read. That some piles can have their costs reduced and others not opens up a few new tricks.
-: A cost reduction of $2 is very powerful. It may be that this is dominant in too many kingdoms.


Quote
Colliery - Action, $3 cost.
+ $2
Discard a card.
You may take Exhausted. If you do, discard a card and + $2.
-
When you gain this, take an Action token.
Modest discard for benefit. Terminally discarding a card for $2 is very weak, but Colliery can do this twice, and the second time is stronger than the first (1 less handsize rather than 2). The discarding is not necessary for getting the $2, so you can get it with an empty hand. Colliery also comes with an action token, which can help its first play or be used for something else, something you don't mind paying $3 for.
+: It fills distinct niches rather than be good all the time, so isn't an automatic buy.
-: It could be too automatic as an opener, even if it is less useful later.


Quote
Components - Action, $3 cost
+1 Action
Return this and another Components from your hand to the Supply. If you return two Components, gain a Prototype from its pile.
-
When you gain this, gain a Silver onto your deck.
The first stage of a 'Traveller' that's hard to upgrade. It needs two copies to connect like Treasure Map, which would seem doable at $3 cost if not for the mixed bonus and hindrance of a top-decked Silver thickening the deck. If it should be that you don't connect them in good time, they can easily be returned so you can take your deck in a different direction. Or maybe you want the Silver and don't mind the extra card in your next shuffle.
+: I feel compelled by a Treasure Map that rewards you with a central engine piece.
-: The top-decked Silver could be too generous for $3 seeing what Components can later become. Or it could make them too situationally viable or swingy.
(I explain the upgrades after the kingdom cards.)


Quote
Diary - Treasure, $5 cost.
$2
When you play this, you may put a card from your hand onto your deck. If you do, take an Action token.
Two things you can find useful to do in your Buy phase, thinking about your next turn.
+: To quote what others have said, elegant.
-: Very good very often, it may be too cheap. At least it isn't much good in decks that draw themselves.


Quote
Diversion - Action Attack, $5 cost.
+ $2
Each other player takes Diverted. Those who already have it put a non-Victory from their hand costing from $3 - $6 onto their Diverted (or reveal they can't). Those who do draw a card.
Quote
Diverted - State
Non-Victory cards you buy are gained onto this. After you shuffle your deck, if there are any cards on this, discard them and return this.
This is a newer one, not tested in this form but I've arrived at it through testing. I was trying to make a different Attack, and since Exhausted is in the set I thought I could use a State. One that hits the Buy phase whilst the other Attack, Revolters, hits the Action phase. Delayed buys, a concept considered often on this forum, is what I first came to (although with the wording 'gained onto this' you can bypass it if you can get other gain locations specified, so you get the choice where a card goes). Non-Victories they buy miss the next shuffle. Additional plays make it a pseudo-Knight that delays cards from other players' decks.
+: I feel it would achieve difference if it's successful.
-: the Knight-like part could easily prove to be broken; actually, a fix comes to mind, which I'll get to later.


Quote
Entrepreneur - Action Reaction, $2 cost.
+1 Action
+ $1

If the Entrepreneur Supply pile is empty, +1 Card and +1 Buy.
-
When any other player trashes a card, you may return this to the Supply to gain a card costing up to $5.
A card that captures risky investment and opportunity, and adds potential mind games. It's a mere Copper to start with, but it can become a $5 cost card when its pile is empty (Market) or if an opponent trashes something. If it reacts to trashing, other Entrepreneurs are hindered in getting to their Market level.
+: The main thing I wanted to try and do was a card that reacts to trashing, as a means of 'nerfing' how good trashing is. It does achieve this, but it's better for adding player interaction.
-: for a card that benefits from other sources of +buy, it's a bit strange that it can later give lots of buys itself.


Quote
Foreign Art - Treasure, $5 cost.
$4
+1 Buy
When you play this, take Diverted and put this on it.
A big spike of money that delays what you buy from entering the deck (except Victories). It gets delayed as well.
+: Simple and effective.
-: Taking Diverted like this detracts from the card Diversion.


Quote
Furnace - Action, $4 cost.
+1 Buy
You may trash a card from your hand for + $2. If it wasn't a Treasure, trash up to 2 more cards from your hand.
-
When you buy this, you may take Exhausted. If you do, play this.
Principally a trasher that targets non-Copper junk. It can be payload with its +buy, but you need to trash a card in order to get the $2. But, when you buy the card, you can play it instantly for those times when your hand is set up just right to trash lots of stuff, and also buy something else with $2 less to spend. Yes, you're playing an Action in your Buy phase, but it's all safe as far as I can see. All of this immediate power in exchange for your next turn's starting action, because trashing is that good.
+: I feel it's a compellingly different trasher.
-: It's not a simple card to read and understand.


Quote
Innovator - Action, $5 cost.
Choose one: discard any number of cards, + $1 per card discarded; or draw up to 6 cards in hand.
You may take Exhausted. If you do, get the other choice.
Not yet tested. Handsize changing payload. Choose to discard for benefit, draw to 6, or take Exhausted for both either way round.
+: The format of choose one or Exhaust for both gives effective, balanced flexibility.
-: Could be too weak, it's only significantly good when Exhausted is taken.


Quote
Night Shift - Night Duration, $5 cost.
Take Exhausted. If you do, and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one.
An Outpost variant that starts your bonus turn without the initial action. You could 'unlock' your Action Phase with Duration Villages or an action token, or simply skip it.
+: Simple, elegant, and a nice card to build around.
-: There are enough ways around the setback that this could be too strong.


Quote
Parade - Victory, $5 cost.
Worth 8VP - VP equal to the difference in the number of Actions and Treasures in your deck.
-
When you gain this, if you have a different number of Actions and Treasures in play, trash it.
Alt VP aiming to reward players who build their deck in a defined way. It's hard to actually gain, but when you do it should be worth it.
+: If it's successful, it will add a compelling way to win the game.
-: It may be so hard to get that it's irrelevant in most games. Or it makes for a strategy too heavily dependent on chance. I can't be confident in whether the maximum VP is balanced.


Quote
Potteries - Action, $5 cost.
Trash a card from your hand.
You may take Exhausted. If you do, gain a card costing up to $5 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand if it costs up to $2 more.
Remodel variant going big if you take Exhausted. You can gain a cheaper card straight to your hand, or a much more expensive one.
+: It's strong payload, a good reason to build a deck to use 2 actions on it.
-: A Remodel going this big a cost increase could be uninteresting, particularly when compared to Altar.


Quote
Purist - Action Treasure, $4 cost.
If it's your Action phase, +3 Actions.
If it's your Buy phase, this is worth $1, and if you haven't played any non-Treasures this turn, +1 Card.
A newer one. A card that either supports a (mostly) pure Action phase turn or a pure Buy phase turn. Wanderers are card-shaped things you can play that aren't Treasures, so they would stop the Buy phase bonus as well as Actions.
+: It's simple to understand but not always simple to use.
-: Having said it's not simple to use, that could mean it's too weak. Or it could be uninteresting.


Quote
Revolters - Action Attack Duration, $4 cost.
Until your next turn, when another player starts their Buy phase with no unused actions, they gain a Curse.
At the start of your next turn, take an Action token.
A -1 action Attack. If it handed out Exhausted, it could pin everyone else out of every Action phase, which would be too strong. So it implies -1 action by giving the opponents the choice between it or a Curse. And so it becomes this set's Curser.
+: It's a different way to attack. It gives more reasons for Action tokens over +Actions.
-: Generally, Attacks are payload cards, and their self bonus reflects this. An Action token is a bit strange here, even though it is the opposite of what the Attack does.


Quote
Steelworks - Action Night, $4 cost.
If it's your Action phase, gain a card costing up to $4, or if you have used 3 or more actions this turn it may cost $5.
At Night, you may trash this, to take an action token for every card you've gained this turn.
Untested in this form. Put simply, a Workshop variant that can let each gain for the turn come with an action token. If you play it as an Action, what it gains depends on the number of actions you've used since playing it, so like Conspirator for played Action cards but instead actions. Returning Exhausted does count as a used action, as do played Wanderers.
Being the Night type, you can play this at the Night phase. But no matter which phase you play this in, 'at Night' (rather than 'otherwise' like that card called Werewolf) means you can trash it to take action tokens regardless. You'll get one more token if you play it as an Action, but you need to have the action to play it.
+: The cost upgrade I find a compelling goal to reach with this set. I wanted to fit taking tokens for gained cards somewhere in the set and it fits nicely here.
-: It feels like it falls between the price brackets of $4 and $5, so costing it $4 could be too cheap. Two new mechanics in one card makes it both extra unfriendly to new players and vulnerable to future cards (unless I miss something about the present ones?).


Quote
Taskmaster - Action, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action

When you play an Action from your hand, you may first turn an unturned Taskmaster you have in play sideways and take Exhausted. If you do both, play the Action twice.
As Royal Carriage is a Throne that looks 'backward' to any Action played, this Throne looks 'forward' to anytime later in the turn. You turn the card on its side when you Throne something, to indicate that it's been used. If you Throne a Duration, the sideways Taskmaster stays in play with it. This is also a cantrip, which is counterbalanced by taking Exhausted. If you Throne a Taskmaster, you will get 2 cards 2 actions (-1 action if you Taskmaster itself, so a chain of them will all be Labs except for the first one), but it won't change how many times it can Throne things; it can still only be turned once.
+: It applies Exhausted boosts to every Action in the game, to make more different ways to play an engine.
-: Nothing else turns cards in play like this, so could come against future rules issues. It can't turn itself face down like that card called Necromancer does, as face down cards in the play area aren't 'in play'. And for all this complication, is it different enough from Royal Carriage?


Quote
Textile Mill - Action, $5+ cost.
+3 Cards
You may take Exhausted. If you do, +2 Cards.
-
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. Take an action token per $1 overpaid.
Smithy that you can double (another +2 handsize) by taking Exhausted. Because this is short text, it has overpay for Action tokens added on, which for one thing can let it be a draw card for Big Money decks with the advantage of different price points.
+: Simple yet effective.
-: Perhaps too strong. An overpay effect on a $5 may not see much use.


Quote
Tutor - Action Duration, $3 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action

You may set aside a card from your hand. At the start of your next turn, if the card is an...
Action, play it;
Treasure, trash it;
neither type, discard it and +1 Card.
Duration that sets aside a card, then to do something with it that benefits the typical engine. Useful, but slow. For Crown (and Purist) you follow the instructions in order, play then trash them.
+: Simple and diverse in its use.
-: It could be too strong, or relevant too often, being both an early trasher and late cycler.


Quote
Wastelands - Victory, $5 cost.
Worth 5VP if you have 10 or fewer non-Victory cards in your deck, otherwise 2VP.
-
When you gain this, trash up to 3 cards you have in play.
Alt VP that rewards you for working with few payload cards, which you can do well in this set. Careful timing is needed to play it well. Or it can be a way you trash down to make an engine.
+: I feel it makes for a compelling different way to play the game.
-: 10 non-Victories could be too generous, or trashing 3 cards too generous. It's questionable if both this and Parade should be in the same set.


Components upgrades
There are 5 copies of each.


Quote
Prototype - Action Machine, $0* cost.
Take two action tokens. You may trash a Treasure from your hand, to gain a Treasure to your hand costing up to $3 more. Exchange this for a Machine.
(This is not in the Supply.)
The first of only 2 upgrade stages, as Components are a fair bit harder to upgrade than Page or Peasant. On play, you get two Action tokens and Mine, then you can upgrade it into a Machine, a type shared by the 3 different final stages. Each of these takes a powerful step in different directions. Prototype also is a Machine; this means you can, instead of upgrade it, choose to essentially discard it for a chance to draw and play it again on the same turn, and there's nothing to track if you do.
+: I believe it achieves self-discard without any problems. It makes for a smooth transition between Components (it can Mine the Silvers) and the final upgrades.
-: You can play Components and the Prototype on the same turn, which adds potential swinginess. The self-discard being on the middle upgrade rather than a final one could make some players sad to have to lose the ability.


Quote
Spinning Mule - Treasure Machine, $0* cost.
$1
While this is in play, after you play a Treasure (including this), +1 card.
(This is not in the Supply.)
If your deck is taking more of a money direction, you can take this upgrade to improve your Treasures immensely. After you play a Treasure, so after you resolve all a Treasure's effects (which are 'when' you play it), you draw a card. It looks strong, but it's delayed, and it's one card in a likely big deck. It needs to not have a buy on it to balance it further.
+: Simple, suitably powerful, a nice contrast to Steam Engine.
-: Very daring; it can so easily become broken in the future, and it arguably changes the whole game of Dominion to let Treasures draw the deck.


Quote
Steam Engine - Action Machine, $0* cost.
Discard up to 3 cards. Take an Action token per card discarded.
While this is in play, after an action token you spend gives +1 Action, you may use that action to play an Action card from your hand twice.
(This is not in the Supply.)
An upgrade for Actions as opposed to Spinning Mule for Treasures. Massively improve playing Actions by turning your Action tokens into Throne tokens while this is in play, but Exhausted still takes priority if it's there when a token is spent. You can put the token on the card when you Throne it, and if it's a Duration it can stay on over the other turns. If you use Taskmaster on a Steam powered card, it is played four times (you play it twice twice).
+: Tokens are a clean way to make a multi Throne Room. Both this and Spinning Mule are similar in being single power cards that need to be in hand each run through the deck.
-: Taskmaster and this are very similar. And the rule for both interacting on the same card may be technically questionable.


Quote
Patent - Action Machine, $0* cost.
Choose one: +2 Cards, +2 Actions or + $2, then this becomes the card on your Patent mat until it leaves play.
-
When you get your first Patent, move an Action card from the Supply that isn't on any other Patent mat onto your Patent mat.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Make your own power Action card, and prevent anyone else copying you. You get a copy of an Action in the Supply and add a vanilla bonus to it. The Patent mat could be like a mat from Seaside. If a game turns out to be a race for the best Patent, the players who lose can likely do well with a Steam Engine.
+: The added sense of uniqueness can feel nice to some, and it's a different way to get ahead in a game.
-: It's wordy. It's hard to tell if it's balanced.



And that's everything. I hope you found this an interesting read, whether you're an observer into Dominion design, or you're looking for inspiration for your own fan cards, or any other reason. Feel free to leave comments; I don't mind criticism, as it's essential to perfecting any design.

And thank you for reading.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 05:16:58 pm by Aquila »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 08:20:50 am »
+2

I suggest to post less cards at once. I understand why you would want to share all of your ideas at once with us, but given there are no pictures, this is an incredibly long wall of text. Many people won't even start reading it, as they will get tired of it before finishing. I'm saying this before taking any look at your actual cards, just as a friendly tip: Less at once means more detailed feedback, and probably more altogether.

Now I'll check some random cards and give my 2 cents:

Quote
Taskmaster - Action, +1 card +4 actions. If there are any unused actions at the end of your turn, draw 2 less cards for your next turnís hand, down to 3. $4 cost.
On a German forum I already encountered something like this, where spending all your Actions was necessary to achieve something. I think it's not too great to punish somebody for overproducing, though. As I said about LastFootnote's Charlatan already, overproduction is in itself a punishment, as you waste something you put effort in. That said, it doesn't look unbalanced. With +3 Actions it'd maybe even pass as a regular 4$? I don't know. Or just give the penalty every time. Just, I'd suggest to not punish for failing to use your potential.

Quote
Potteries - Action, +4 cards. You may use a second action on this. If you do, +1 buy, + $2. $6 cost.
You might like to check out my Town/Road (click the link in my signature) on how I did spending two Actions on one card. It seemed easier to me back then. And I'd say it is if you only do one card with that ability, but here of course you made it a recurring thing. Which means that yes, you have to learn something new, but you get a whole new bunch of cards that use that thing. That said, I'm not sure how good or bad Potteries is. It seems better than Hunting Grounds, but I'm not sure how much better.

Quote
Advancing Village - Action, +1 card, +2 actions. If this was played from your hand, take an Action Token. $5 cost.
I don't get what you say about "replaying itself infinitely". If the +1 Action token just gives you +1 Action, however would you play this card again?

Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may use the action on the last one you played.
I don't get the last part. Is the +1 Action Token supposed to be something like Royal Carriage? Because if it's just "When you play an Action card, you may use an Action token to get +1 Action", what would "use it on the last one you played" even mean?

navical

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 09:31:26 am »
0

I suggest to post less cards at once. I understand why you would want to share all of your ideas at once with us, but given there are no pictures, this is an incredibly long wall of text. Many people won't even start reading it, as they will get tired of it before finishing. I'm saying this before taking any look at your actual cards, just as a friendly tip: Less at once means more detailed feedback, and probably more altogether.


Definitely this.

Quote
Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may use the action on the last one you played.
I don't get the last part. Is the +1 Action Token supposed to be something like Royal Carriage? Because if it's just "When you play an Action card, you may use an Action token to get +1 Action", what would "use it on the last one you played" even mean?
I assume it's meant to be
Quote
While this is in play, when you spend an Action token, you may replay the last Action you played instead of getting +1 Action.
Although I can't find a perfect wording either, I think that's clearer?
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 11:27:31 am »
0

I suggest to post less cards at once.
Good call. I should thank you both for reading what you have.

Edit: so I split them up according to their mechanics. Reverted as they looked more clumsy dotted around. I am slowly working on images for each card.

Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may use the action on the last one you played.
I don't get the last part. Is the +1 Action Token supposed to be something like Royal Carriage? Because if it's just "When you play an Action card, you may use an Action token to get +1 Action", what would "use it on the last one you played" even mean?
So you play Executive, and discard some Treasures to get some action tokens. If there are no actions left after this, you would pay a token to gain +1 action in the usual way. You can choose to play an action from your hand at this point.
Or you can use the action you just got from the token on the Executive, since it is the last action you played. So it would still count as using an action, and you would again have none left.
Now the difficulty with wording; suppose after the Executive you play Potteries, then pay another token and use the action on the Potteries. You are using 'a second action' on it and would get the Woodcutter effect. If you were to 'replay' the Potteries like with Royal Carriage you would replay the card and get 4 cards again.

I hope this makes sense since it helps to explain this:
Quote
Advancing Village - Action, +1 card, +2 actions. If this was played from your hand, take an Action Token. $5 cost.
I don't get what you say about "replaying itself infinitely". If the +1 Action token just gives you +1 Action, however would you play this card again?
I should explain that when I wrote the commentary for each card in my own notes, the rule on Executive was always what action tokens did. I changed them for simplicity and then made Executive to keep the effect. I just forgot to update this.
So with an Executive in play, you'd play Advancing Village, gain a token, which you use on Advancing Village, gain another token, etc.

Edit: adjusted the comments on each card.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 02:59:44 am by Aquila »
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 12:04:30 pm »
+1

Hum, I'm really not sure I like the idea of being allowed to re-play cards that are already in play. It seems wonky with Durations, at least. If you want to keep that ability, you should fix up Executive instead of altering other cards that give out the token: "While this is in play, when you play an Action card from your hand, you may first spend any number of +1 Action Tokens to play that card that many additional times."
That would stack with several, though. An alternative would be to just introduce an own type of token: "Take that many Executive Tokens..."

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2017, 01:36:38 pm »
0

Some adjustments thanks to your feedback.

I guess a lot of confusion arises with this whole 'second action' idea. If we remove that things should be easier. I can do what I did to the unnamed remodeler, 'choose one... You may use two actions on this'.

Quote
Glassworks - action. Choose one: return up to 2 cards from your hand to the piles they came from, and you may gain a card costing exactly the sum of the returned cards; or draw up to 6 cards in your hand. You may use two actions on this. $5 cost.
Should play just the same, only Thrones let you do one then the other too.

Quote
Potteries - Action, choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, + $2. You may use two actions on this. $6 cost.
I feared that playing Village-this to draw 4 cards twice would be too strong, so it's down to 3 but hopefully a lot simpler. I'm toying with adding 'when you gain this, take 2 action tokens.'

Quote
Steelworks - Action. Choose one: draw up to 9 cards in hand, then put 3 cards from your hand on the bottom of your deck; or reveal your hand, and if there areÖ 3 or more Treasures, + $2; 3 or more Actions, +2 actions; 1 or more Victory cards, +1 buy. You may use two actions on this. $5 cost.
This is quite a bit stronger; you can reveal your hand twice for 3 actions and/or $4, but it'll be harder to get with a 4 card hand.

Quote
Textile Mill - Choose one: +1 card per card in your hand, discard up to 3 cards then put your hand on top of your deck in any order; or gain a card costing up to 4 into your hand. You may use two actions on this. $5 cost.
The Workshop part gains to hand to work better with the first part, but would two 4s to hand be too strong?

A change to Taskmaster to be similar to Lost City's balance:
Quote
Taskmaster - Action, +1 card +4 actions. When you gain this, draw 2 less cards for your next turnís hand, down to 3.
The skill element is still there. There could be some complex reason to gain one just for the effect.

These changes should make Executive and Expert much simpler:
Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may replay the last action you played instead of +1 action. $6 cost.
Quote
Expert - Action. Choose one: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin or +1 buy, then replay the last action you resolved that is not an Expert. $5 cost.

About replaying durations, the instructions for Royal Carriage seem to imply you can only do so on the turn you play them, and not on their later effects. If you do so the card stays out with it for easy tracking. It wouldn't make sense with Hireling otherwise. And it can't replay reserves as they're never in play after they're resolved. So, with the cards changed to be like this, the same rule would apply, the action token (Executive) or Expert card staying with the duration.

Hopefully improvements.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2017, 05:05:05 pm »
0

It's not at all clear what "you may use 2 actions on this" means. To me, it reads "you may play this card and have it consume 2 actions instead of 1", with no additional effect.

Do you actually mean "You may use an additional Action to play this card a second time"?
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2017, 07:28:53 pm »
0

Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
This has serious problems with Crown. You are forced to play Crown, but it's your Action phase, so uh I suppose you can throne an Action. What if I draw more Treasures? Do I have to play them? Am I allowed to play them? And what if I discard some of the Treasures in my hand? Am I still required to play them?

Similar problems, to a lesser extent, occur with Counterfeit - did I play the counterfeited card and have thus fulfilled the requirement to play it, or does Consumerist line up the cards in your hand for play and you have to play them even when they stop being in your hand? And if I Counterfeit Rocks to gain a Silver in hand, what about that?

Unfortunately, I do not have a good idea of how to fix these issues while keeping the premise. Other than that, I would add that gaining a card at the start of your turn rather than at its end is usually considered a bonus, so I'm not sure the attack is strong enough to be worth it.
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Shvegait

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2017, 08:34:35 pm »
0

It's not at all clear what "you may use 2 actions on this" means. To me, it reads "you may play this card and have it consume 2 actions instead of 1", with no additional effect.

Do you actually mean "You may use an additional Action to play this card a second time"?

These cards give you an extra optional effect, if you pay Actions. Think of how Butcher lets you pay Coin tokens, and then that gives you an extra benefit. Here, you pay Actions for the extra benefit.

Take Potteries for example (using the version from the first post). When you play it, it's just like Hunting Grounds. Then, you can pay another Action (if you have one) for +1 Buy, +$2.

I find the wording on these cards a bit confusing, especially considering the explanation on how Action tokens work. The card texts themselves should be enough to explain how the card works. The alternating back and forth between 1st action part and 2nd action part seems too complicated. The concept of "using two actions" is certainly ambiguous and should be reworded.

I think the concept could work somehow like this, for example:

Quote
Potteries - $6 Action - +3 Cards, You may pay an Action. If you did, +1 Buy, +$2.

This wording would be consistent with Storyteller, but still might be a little ambiguous on its own because Action is an overloaded word in Dominion (see Diadem). Actually, if you want to be consistent with Diadem, you may want to say "You may pay an unused Action", but I'm not sure that's necessary.

As for Action tokens, you could make them work just like Coin tokens from Guilds. Instead, you would have, during your Action phase, you may spend an Action token, for +1 Action. I think that is what you intended, though I'm not sure. I would think, though, to prevent some rules problems or confusion, you would want to limit when Action tokens can be spent to after completely resolving an Action, or whenever you "may pay an Action".

Unfortunately, by Executive changing Action tokens into Royal Carriage effects, the only reasonable time to be able to spend Action tokens is after completely resolving an Action, which doesn't work nicely with the "may pay an Action"/"use two Actions on this" cards. Honestly, though, Executive is overpowered and probably needs to change anyway. A single Executive and a single Bridge can end the game in just a few turns, as soon as you can get 7 or 8 Action tokens and collide Executive and Bridge.

Some interesting card effects here. Haven't even looked beyond the Action theme yet.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 08:43:40 pm by Shvegait »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2017, 05:50:49 am »
0

Some good observations, thank you all.

Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
This has serious problems with Crown. You are forced to play Crown, but it's your Action phase, so uh I suppose you can throne an Action. What if I draw more Treasures? Do I have to play them? Am I allowed to play them? And what if I discard some of the Treasures in my hand? Am I still required to play them?

Similar problems, to a lesser extent, occur with Counterfeit - did I play the counterfeited card and have thus fulfilled the requirement to play it, or does Consumerist line up the cards in your hand for play and you have to play them even when they stop being in your hand? And if I Counterfeit Rocks to gain a Silver in hand, what about that?

Unfortunately, I do not have a good idea of how to fix these issues while keeping the premise. Other than that, I would add that gaining a card at the start of your turn rather than at its end is usually considered a bonus, so I'm not sure the attack is strong enough to be worth it.
This may skew game mechanics too far, but:
"Each other player starts their next turn with a Buy Phase, in which they keep their hand revealed and play all Treasures. (They still have a Buy Phase after their Action Phase.)"
The potential this has is when a player can hit 8 but only with the actions he has. Instead he gets two buy phases with less than 8 to spend.

It's not at all clear what "you may use 2 actions on this" means. To me, it reads "you may play this card and have it consume 2 actions instead of 1", with no additional effect.

Do you actually mean "You may use an additional Action to play this card a second time"?

These cards give you an extra optional effect, if you pay Actions. Think of how Butcher lets you pay Coin tokens, and then that gives you an extra benefit. Here, you pay Actions for the extra benefit.

Take Potteries for example (using the version from the first post). When you play it, it's just like Hunting Grounds. Then, you can pay another Action (if you have one) for +1 Buy, +$2.

I find the wording on these cards a bit confusing, especially considering the explanation on how Action tokens work. The card texts themselves should be enough to explain how the card works. The alternating back and forth between 1st action part and 2nd action part seems too complicated. The concept of "using two actions" is certainly ambiguous and should be reworded.

I think the concept could work somehow like this, for example:

Quote
Potteries - $6 Action - +3 Cards, You may pay an Action. If you did, +1 Buy, +$2.

This wording would be consistent with Storyteller, but still might be a little ambiguous on its own because Action is an overloaded word in Dominion (see Diadem). Actually, if you want to be consistent with Diadem, you may want to say "You may pay an unused Action", but I'm not sure that's necessary.
How does this read:
"Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy +$2. You may use a second action on this to replay it."

As for Action tokens, you could make them work just like Coin tokens from Guilds. Instead, you would have, during your Action phase, you may spend an Action token, for +1 Action. I think that is what you intended, though I'm not sure. I would think, though, to prevent some rules problems or confusion, you would want to limit when Action tokens can be spent to after completely resolving an Action, or whenever you "may pay an Action".
I never did explain did I? Well this is exactly what I thought.

Unfortunately, by Executive changing Action tokens into Royal Carriage effects, the only reasonable time to be able to spend Action tokens is after completely resolving an Action, which doesn't work nicely with the "may pay an Action"/"use two Actions on this" cards. Honestly, though, Executive is overpowered and probably needs to change anyway. A single Executive and a single Bridge can end the game in just a few turns, as soon as you can get 7 or 8 Action tokens and collide Executive and Bridge.
Ah yes, I had kept my Canal in mind but I suppose a Bridge-Silver opening would be too fast. If I limited the number of Treasures it could discard to 2?
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2017, 07:45:20 am »
0

Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
This has serious problems with Crown. You are forced to play Crown, but it's your Action phase, so uh I suppose you can throne an Action. What if I draw more Treasures? Do I have to play them? Am I allowed to play them? And what if I discard some of the Treasures in my hand? Am I still required to play them?

Similar problems, to a lesser extent, occur with Counterfeit - did I play the counterfeited card and have thus fulfilled the requirement to play it, or does Consumerist line up the cards in your hand for play and you have to play them even when they stop being in your hand? And if I Counterfeit Rocks to gain a Silver in hand, what about that?

Unfortunately, I do not have a good idea of how to fix these issues while keeping the premise. Other than that, I would add that gaining a card at the start of your turn rather than at its end is usually considered a bonus, so I'm not sure the attack is strong enough to be worth it.
This may skew game mechanics too far, but:
"Each other player starts their next turn with a Buy Phase, in which they keep their hand revealed and play all Treasures. (They still have a Buy Phase after their Action Phase.)"
The potential this has is when a player can hit 8 but only with the actions he has. Instead he gets two buy phases with less than 8 to spend.
A hopefully simpler solution I thought of:

"While this is is play, when another player starts their turn, they reveal their hand and set aside all Treasure cards. Then they play the cards set aside in any order."

This still has weirdness with Crown, but the rules should be clear; any additional Treasures are not played. It nerfs Counterfeit since you don't get to trash anything, but that's fine.

On power level: I get that, but hitting $8 is only really important late-game; maybe the attack hurts very early as well if you would reach $5 with Action + Treasures. Mid-game, gaining the card and being able to play it the same turn may well be a bonus; providing virtual +buy may be a bonus too. Attacks that are sometimes beneficial can work (see Haunted Woods) and it's an interesting way to attack a player, but I think the other effects of the card are too weak.
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Shvegait

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2017, 09:09:17 am »
0

How does this read:
"Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy +$2. You may use a second action on this to replay it."

I think this might be OK, but I would drop the word "second" because it's confusing (or re-word depending on what you want the card to do). Consider the case where you do use a second action to replay it. Then you are faced with the same choice: "You may use a second action on this to replay it". But what does that mean now? Are you not allowed to, because it would be a "third" action? Or are you allowed to? For that particular play of the action card, it's only your "second" action. That's the reason I think something like "You may pay an Action to replay this" would be more clear.

Also keep in mind that as written, this lets you pick +3 Cards each time, if you want. Note that the first play is a Smithy, but each subsequent play is a Hunting Grounds (because you don't have to play another card from your hand for the effect). So this might be too strong, when there are cheap villages.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 09:12:22 am by Shvegait »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2017, 10:43:19 am »
0

How does this read:
"Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy +$2. You may use a second action on this to replay it."

You're running into a few of the troubles I tried to avoid with my Road (yes, this is shameless self-advertizing in a way, but maybe it'll be insightful, after all):
First, it's a hard to track how many buys and coins you have. Admittedly, my Road can't track the Actions it used, either - but here you're counting 3-dimensional: Coins, Buys AND Actions.
Second, my card isn't in the supply as a +1 Action token on it would draw your deck. That still works with Champion, though that's a bit harder to achieve and kinda over the top either way. Here it's worse, because the card actually generates unlimited amounts of coins and buys, which means putting the token here and drawing one=Victory.
Third, Road comes with a Village for the reason that it gets easier to balance without being useless from time to time.
Lastly, the wording: If I played this at first with a Herold, Throne Room or something like that, I never spent a "first" action on it, so may I actually use a "second" one?

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2017, 12:01:14 pm »
0

OK, so the wording is still misleading. What it needs to convey is when you play the action, you have the option of using one extra action on it to replay it, but avoid 'replaying' it for such cases as Champion. Maybe...
"You may use an action to do this twice."

Tracking which effect you choose each time is a valid point. When it comes to the number of times you replay an action with Executive or Expert or if you 'use it twice' you can put an action token on the card for each extra time. An idea for indicating which effect you chose is put the token on the picture for one effect and on the text for the other. For some tracking cases (such as maybe KC-Pawn or Courtier) you just have to be creative.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2017, 01:38:41 pm »
0

Other suggestions:

"Choose one: A; B
You may pay/expend/use up/lose one of your Actions, to choose a second time (the choice may be the same)."

or:
"Choose one: A; B
If you have unused actions, you may choose a second time (the choice may be the same). If you do: -1 Action"

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2017, 12:47:19 pm »
0

Appreciate the suggestions, but I think I like the 'do this twice' format the best. It already exists on Remake. And I think it should go first, so that running through the effects in order one doesn't think they can use an extra action to then choose two more times. So like this:
Quote
Action. You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to 2 more than the trashed card; or look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. 5 cost.
Canal - +1 buy. You may use an extra action on this. If you do, cards everywhere cost 2 less this turn, but not less than 0. For the first time Canal is played on your turn, when you gain a card, you may gain a Treasure costing up to 4. 5 cost.
Colliery - +1 card. You may use an extra action to do the following twice, or two extra actions for three times: +2 coins, discard a card. 4 cost.
Glassworks - You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: return up to 2 cards from your hand to the piles they came from, and you may gain a card costing exactly the sum of the returned cards; or draw up to 6 cards in your hand. 5 cost.
Potteries - You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, +2 coins. 6 cost.
Does this make complete sense? Do they need the 'extra' there?

And two other proposed tweaks:
Quote
Cameo - Treasure, +$2. Take an Action Token. You may put a card from your hand on top of your deck. $4 cost.
Generally more playable.

Quote
Patency - When you first gain this, set aside 2 different Action cards other than Patency from the Supply costing up to a total of $8. When you play this, it becomes the action on the left until it is resolved, then, unless this has left play, the one on the right. $7 cost.
Wording adjustment that should play durations and reserves in a balanced way. Put a Reserve on the left and the right card never gets played as Patency goes to the Tavern mat, leaving play.
If a Duration is the left card, then we follow on from what was discussed earlier with Royal Carriage's interaction with durations; it is resolved after the immediate turn's effects are completed, not the later ones. Patency will then become the right card, thereby cancelling the next turn effects. So no shenanigans with Tactician or Hireling.
And if either are on the right, they play normally.
Well, that was wordy... I hope you get it.
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Shvegait

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2017, 08:42:38 pm »
+1

Appreciate the suggestions, but I think I like the 'do this twice' format the best. It already exists on Remake. And I think it should go first, so that running through the effects in order one doesn't think they can use an extra action to then choose two more times. So like this:
Quote
Colliery - +1 card. You may use an extra action to do the following twice, or two extra actions for three times: +2 coins, discard a card. 4 cost.
Does this make complete sense? Do they need the 'extra' there?

A problem with this wording is that it's not clear what happens if you choose not to use an extra action. I know you intend it to mean that you do the part that follows a single time, but it's not clear from the wording. The way it reads, you don't actually get any benefit from playing the card at all unless you spend additional actions. Something like "Otherwise, do it once" is needed, which could be in parentheses.

I like Asper's suggestion of "If you have unused Actions, you may ... -1 Action". It doesn't require any additional rules and it's not too wordy. The only problem is that it doesn't work nicely with every possible clause you have after it, but if you have something like discard a card, it's pretty clean.

How about this?
Quote
Colliery - +1 Card, +1 Action. Do this three times: If you have any unused Actions, you may discard a card, for -1 Action, +$2.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2017, 03:47:45 pm »
0

Updated the OP with wording changes and hopefully clearer commentary on each card.

Appreciate the suggestions, but I think I like the 'do this twice' format the best. It already exists on Remake. And I think it should go first, so that running through the effects in order one doesn't think they can use an extra action to then choose two more times. So like this:
Quote
Colliery - +1 card. You may use an extra action to do the following twice, or two extra actions for three times: +2 coins, discard a card. 4 cost.
Does this make complete sense? Do they need the 'extra' there?

A problem with this wording is that it's not clear what happens if you choose not to use an extra action. I know you intend it to mean that you do the part that follows a single time, but it's not clear from the wording. The way it reads, you don't actually get any benefit from playing the card at all unless you spend additional actions. Something like "Otherwise, do it once" is needed, which could be in parentheses.

I like Asper's suggestion of "If you have unused Actions, you may ... -1 Action". It doesn't require any additional rules and it's not too wordy. The only problem is that it doesn't work nicely with every possible clause you have after it, but if you have something like discard a card, it's pretty clean.
I went with do it once, since as you said the format wouldn't work very well for all the multiple action cards, so I decided to keep them all the same. That said, it could work (now I notice Diadem says 'unused actions'). Here they both are:
Quote
Colliery - +1 card. You may do the following once, use an extra action to do it twice, or two extra actions for three times: + $2, discard a card.
Quote
Colliery - +1 Card, +1 Action. Do this three times: If you have any unused Actions, you may discard a card, for -1 Action, +$2.

Quote
Potteries - Action, You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, + $2.
Quote
Potteries - choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, + $2. If you have any unused actions, you may choose again for -1 action.
I could even try the second use format again:
Quote
Potteries - +4 cards. If you have any unused actions, you may do: -1 action, +1 buy, + $2.
I would appreciate opinions as to what format is best.

And so this isn't all just a discussion on how to word cards properly, I'll put the question out:
Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
...
This may skew game mechanics too far, but:
"Each other player starts their next turn with a Buy Phase, in which they keep their hand revealed and play all Treasures. (They still have a Buy Phase after their Action Phase.)"
The potential this has is when a player can hit 8 but only with the actions he has. Instead he gets two buy phases with less than 8 to spend.
A hopefully simpler solution I thought of:

"While this is is play, when another player starts their turn, they reveal their hand and set aside all Treasure cards. Then they play the cards set aside in any order."

This still has weirdness with Crown, but the rules should be clear; any additional Treasures are not played. It nerfs Counterfeit since you don't get to trash anything, but that's fine.

On power level: I get that, but hitting $8 is only really important late-game; maybe the attack hurts very early as well if you would reach $5 with Action + Treasures. Mid-game, gaining the card and being able to play it the same turn may well be a bonus; providing virtual +buy may be a bonus too. Attacks that are sometimes beneficial can work (see Haunted Woods) and it's an interesting way to attack a player, but I think the other effects of the card are too weak.
I realised making Consumerist start turns with buy phases gets really wonky with Villa, so before bothering to get the wording sussed, is his attack too weak based on faust's reasoning?
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2017, 04:33:29 am »
+1

Having got some good playtesting done, I thought I'd post some updates. Here are the main ones:

  • I've put all the cards that use multiple actions under the type 'Multi'. It's a clean solution that makes wording much shorter and simpler. All Multi cards call for -1 action to do extras in various ways, and the rule simply is you can't do such effects of you have none left.
  • Advancing Village (was 5 cost 1 card 2 actions take token) now gives tokens when you gain cards. It seemed better to not simply give tokens out on a simple cantrip, but to make it a bit more challenging to get them.
  • Cameo similarly gives its token if you do top-deck a card. It's bumped up to 5 like the other silver+ Treasures.
  • Glassworks now trashes cards rather than returns them to the Supply. It actually progresses to the game end now, and plays nicely.
  • Consumerist is now called Hawker, actually a thing, and reads:
    Quote
    each other player reveals their hand and sets aside all Treasure cards. They take another Buy Phase after their next one with them, with +1 buy. At the start of your next turn: + $3.
  • Entrepreneur now gives +1 buy on pile empty. It basically takes what Labourer ​tried in being a delayed Market, so Labourer can now go.
  • Executive is now called Magnate:
    Quote
    discard up to 2 cards. Take an action token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an action token, instead of +1 action you get: +1 card, and you may play an Action card from your hand twice.
  • Patency is now Patent, again actually something real, and it needed​ to become a Multi. You choose one set aside Action, and can then do the other for -1 action.
  • Revolters was weak, and easily stopped by BM. It's now:
    Quote
    At the start of each other player's Buy Phase during their next turn, they get -1 action. If they have no actions left, they gain a Curse. At the start of your next turn, +1 action.
    It doesn't quite seem right as is, it'll need a bit more work.
  • Steelworks is now:
    Quote
    draw up to 8 cards, then discard down to 5; or reveal your hand, and if there are... 2 or more Actions, +2 actions; 2 or more Treasures, +1 buy; 2 or more Victories, + $2.
  • Textile Mill is now:
    Quote
    +2 cards and gain a Silver to hand; or look at the top 5 cards of your deck, discard any number, then put the rest back with any number from your hand in any order.

And there are outtakes:
Labourer (+1 action, +1 buy, if 3 or more actions have been used this turn +1 card +1 coin) didn't look very interesting alongside Entrepreneur, as explained above.
Taskmaster (+1 card +4 actions, on buy draw 2 less cards for next hand) lost its appeal once I started thinking action tokens.
Toxic Waste (while in play cards not in supply cost 1 less, when other player plays a card costing 1 or less they gain Curse) tried too hard to be different, and was potentially too strong. I could make Revolters a much simpler curser.

The OP has had an overhaul to make it a hopefully simpler read.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 05:22:10 pm by Aquila »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2017, 04:59:19 pm »
+1

I haven't really read through everything, but kudos for updating an expansion based on playtesting! That doesn't happen a lot.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2017, 04:48:07 am »
0

Some more definite updates.

Just by putting each Multi with Fishing Village it was clear which ones looked balanced and which weren't:
  • Colliery was insane, but removing the +card has reined it in. I'm now trying it as an overpay card, $2 +1 action token per 1 overpay. Looking fine at the moment.
  • Glassworks got decks going too fast, with trash and good draw together. It's an outtake.
  • Potteries was so good it's silly. Straight to the outtakes.
  • Textile Mill was in the same boat as Potteries, with +2 cards +2 coins (in the form of to hand silver) together. But with Potteries gone, I'm trying +3 cards on it instead.
No problems with the others yet.

And Hawker's been weak. I've got an idea in line for a fix, but it hasn't been tested yet.

And three promising new cards:

Quote
Incinerator - Action, $3 cost.
+1 buy
Trash up to 2 cards from your hand. If you trashed a Curse, trash up to 2 more cards from your hand and + $1.

Quote
Innovator - Action Multi, $5 cost.
Choose one, or do both in either order and -1 action:
+ $3 and play up to three Treasures from your hand; or pay all your $ to buy a card immediately, gaining it to your hand.

Quote
Locusts - Action, $4 cost.
+1 card
+1 action

Set this aside. Trash a card from your hand and one from the Supply costing up to $5 other than Locusts.
At the end of your turn, trash this and gain a Locusts.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2017, 02:10:34 pm »
0

Incinerator - Interesting. Reminds me of Plastic Brain's Medicine. It might be a tad too good with curses or a bit swingy.

Innovator - IDK about the -action, but the rest should be just gaining. "Spend all of your $, then gain a card to your hand costing up to the total $ spent." I don't think you need the option to do only one, right now the card seems too good. I could really be underestimating the -action though.

Locusts - Looks really good. A cantrip trasher for 4, that gives you a free $5? Sure, it has limited uses but it's a guaranteed opener. Even with 5, you need to grab one to at least contest the pile.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2017, 06:22:17 pm »
+1

Innovator - IDK about the -action, but the rest should be just gaining. "Spend all of your $, then gain a card to your hand costing up to the total $ spent." I don't think you need the option to do only one, right now the card seems too good. I could really be underestimating the -action though.
Playtesting hasn't been that thorough like this, but it's come a long way to get to something close to balanced. It's fair at buying Treasures, as you lose out on total coins for the Buy Phase, it's buying Actions that's been the trouble. You either need enough virtual coin played before and 2 actions left, or enough Treasure in hand and 3 actions, to play the Action card of choice straight away. Both involve a bit more than just a Village, so it's not so scary an opener.

I think you have a card similar to this on your thread, one called Munitions, that buys a card like this onto your deck for $3 cost. Maybe I should test it for strength.

Locusts - Looks really good. A cantrip trasher for 4, that gives you a free $5? Sure, it has limited uses but it's a guaranteed opener. Even with 5, you need to grab one to at least contest the pile.
Hmm, it doesn't gain the card costing up to 5 but trashes it from the Supply. That would of course be too strong.
Did you maybe misread it because it says '...costing up to 5' and not '5 or less'?
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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2017, 08:17:58 pm »
+1

Here's a more boring version that doesn't need a Village in the kingdom to work (which would be my main critizism of the "spend several actions" mechanic, and one of the reasons my Road always comes with a Village):

Innovator, Action, 5$
+1 Action
+2$
Lose any amount of $. Gain a card costing at most the amount you lost to your hand.

Obvious comparisons are Minion and Royal Seal. Royal Seal can use its effect later in your turn and can't be drawn dead, but it's topdecking is quite a bit weaker, lacking both the implicit +1 Card and the implicit +1 Buy.

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Re: Dominion: Revolution
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2017, 08:52:28 am »
0

About Multi cards, I am against the subtype. You don't need a new type for each mechanic, intrigue didn't come with "choosing" type cards. You say it's for simplicity but it doesn't make things simpler. Even if you want to keep the type, I'd change it.

Regarding the multi cards, I think you should have -1 Action tokens. Whenever you would have to spend an action (other than playing a card), if you have no actions you may take a -1 Action token. These are basically the same as debt. You can't take more -1 Action tokens if you have some and you have to play them off with Actions.
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