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Aquila

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Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« on: March 10, 2017, 03:30:48 pm »
+3

As my first post I feel I should introduce myself. I'm a pure IRL casual player of Dominion, and most frequently play 4 player games with random kingdoms of 10 from all sets except the three small ones and Dark Ages. I love the game's design, how for the most part simple cards combine together to become either strong or weak, creating many strategies with no one 'solved' way to play every game. Its repeatability is great.

So I liked the idea of making fan cards and started thinking about some, trying to introduce new mechanics the game doesn't yet cover. I thought of a batch, then started browsing this forum (and not BGG's) to see if they were already covered. And indeed some of them were, but nothing exactly the same. So after a lot of thought and revision, then putting in a theme, I hope they're now good for posting them here and add interest. I see plenty of coverage on the Industrial Revolution already; thematics aren't important to me, it was just fitting. They can change if needs be.

Mechanics: cards that use multiple actions, refilling the Supply, sets of cycling one-shots, different attacks. I cover each of these one at a time.

Cards that use multiple actions - a mechanic I see has been explored, but not quite in the way I employ it. I feel it could be worth a revisit. I thought the main advantage to this mechanic strategically is needing fewer action cards, and that's what I've tried to work in, though of course this can end up meaning more Villages. So to get around both the Village idiot play and games with no Villages, each action card should be strong with just one action used on it, and there can be...
action tokens to save space. Again I see this has been explored, the same idea that they give +1 action on use and you spend them following the same rules as calling Coin of the Realm. Actually, I first thought of these to make tracking easier; put one on a card for each extra action used on it. Seemed a bit clumsy to use tokens just for this, so now they can be used by cards.

Onto some cards, but first a note on language. When a card says you may use an 'extra' action, it lets you use another action on it after playing it to trigger another effect, so you will need to have played a Village or spent an action token to do this. As soon as another action card is played you can no longer use extra actions on the previous card.

Quote
Potteries - Action, You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, + $2. $6 cost.
The simplest first to illustrate the principle. In games with no Villages this may be a viable buy as a big money enabler. With Villages you can choose between playing Smithy/Hunting Grounds (HG when you choose it on an extra action, for the same effect of +3 handsize; this is why this costs 6) or a weaker but complimentary Woodcutter (any stronger, like giving $3, and I feel this would be imbalanced in games with loads of actions). Two effects you want to put together, combined in one card - Village-Hunting Grounds-Woodcutter is harder to build and draw than Village-this.

Now alphabetically:
Quote
Advancing Village - Action, +1 card, +2 actions. If this was played from your hand, take an Action Token. $5 cost.
Putting action token and Village together is easy enough, and shouldn't be too boring. This needs awkward wording to prevent it replaying itself infinitely with Executive (below) in play. And Thrones are a debatable case - I would say TR/KC and variants could get tokens each time, as they effectively play from hand multiple times, whilst Royal Carriage couldn't. A simpler but weaker alternative is to take the token at the end of your turn.

Quote
Cameo - Treasure, + $2. Take an Action Token. You may put a card from your hand on top of your deck. $4 cost.
I thought a way to gain action tokens in the buy phase would be a neat idea. This lets you put a terminal action you can't play back on the deck so it's more interesting.

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Canal - Action, +1 buy. You may use an extra action on this. If you do, cards everywhere cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0. For the first time Canal is played on your turn, when you gain a card, you may gain a Treasure costing up to $4. $5 cost.
This was always supposed to be a card needing 2 actions for its best effect; I chose cost reduction since having numerous actions would be a good challenge for triggering a mega turn (the +buy being first means you get it on every use). Then the no-Village case... The current first play effect is strong and hopefully costs 5, combos with the cost reduction and +buys but plays very differently.

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Colliery - action, +1 card. You may do the following once, use an extra action to do it twice, or two extra actions for three times: + $2, discard a card. $4 cost.
A card using 3 actions would surely be a payload one, since if you get to have 3 actions then the game likely favours engines, and you use actions on payload in an engine. This is an epic terminal silver, with the -1 handsize negative since I feel the potential of + $6 on one 4-cost card is strong. There's Diadem, sure, so this may not be different enough.

Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard up to 2 Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may replay the last action you played instead of +1 action. $6 cost.
It can change some action tokens into reserve Royal Carriages, whilst gains them by discarding Treasures. It enables mega turns, and likes decks with action cards in but also plenty of Treasures, as do several cards in this set. It can simply replay itself to increase handsize by 1 and discard more Treasures.

Quote
Expert - Action. Choose one: +1 card, +1 action, + $1 or +1 buy, then replay the last action you resolved that is not an Expert. $5 cost.
Play a copy of the last action with an added Adventures token of your choice, though immediate Thrones do not count as they aren't yet resolved. A diverse engine piece strong in many situations though likes to have a Village to play at its best.

Quote
Glassworks - action. You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: return up to 2 cards from your hand to the piles they came from, and you may gain a card costing exactly the total of the returned cards; or draw up to 6 cards in your hand. $5 cost.
Pairing decreasing handsize with a draw-to-X. The different way to do the former makes for a diverse card; deck trimming, Forge-ing new cards, or re-triggering on-gain effects. It can return non-Supply cards as well, like a Teacher that's finished with.

Quote
Labourer - Action, +1 action +1 buy. If 2 or more actions have been used this turn, +1 card + $1. $2 cost.
A Conspirator variant works well, and this set had lacked +buys and 2 cost cards. I thought what would fill the gap is a delayed Market. Perhaps it goes overboard on buys and would be better as a plain cantrip when not activated.

Quote
Patency - Action. When you first gain this, set aside 2 different Action cards other than Patency from the Supply costing up to a total of $8. When you play this, it becomes the action on the left until it is resolved, then, unless this has left play, the one on the right. $7 cost.
Ideally it would want a mat to put the set aside cards on. Take two cards in the kingdom and put them together into one, to condense deck power into fewer cards but subtly add to their power; a Village-Smithy Patency would leave +3 handsize 2 actions whereas a played Village then Smithy would leave +2 handsize 1 action, or it can play two terminals with one action. The wording is weird to deal with having a duration and a reserve card, so to answer anticipated FAQs:
- if a reserve is first, on the left, the right card never gets played as the Patency goes straight to the Tavern mat, leaving play. Bad move.
- if a duration is on the left; the rule for durations is they are 'resolved' after doing the immediate turn's effects. So do this, and Patency then becomes the card on the right, and thereby loses the later turn effects. This saves trying broken tricks with Hireling or Tactician. Then there's cards where the later effects depend on how they're resolved; Haven, Gear and Archive. Any set aside cards can go by the Patency mat should the card on the right leave play.
- if either are on the right, they play normally.
(And yes thematically no player should copy another's Patency, but that can make silly first buyer advantage.)

Quote
Steelworks - Action. You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: draw up to 9 cards in hand, then put 3 cards from your hand on the bottom of your deck; or reveal your hand, and if there areÖ 3 or more Treasures, + $2; 3 or more Actions, +2 actions; 1 or more Victory cards, +1 buy. $5 cost.
A kind of sifter with an Ironworks-like bonus according to the hand you leave yourself with. It can be a self-contained engine, so with the strength of the sifting as well this may be too strong.

Quote
Taskmaster - Action, +1 card +4 actions. When you gain this, draw 2 less cards for your next turnís hand, down to 3. $4 cost.
Some games with this set will need something like this, but playing 3 Villages in 1 card needs something to balance it out. If Colliery seems a bit weak this card is why. This should take skill to use well whilst not being too harsh - there could even be a use for the on-gain effect, like when you know the top 5 cards of you deck for next turn are all good and you can't afford 2 of them getting Militia'd.

Quote
Textile Mill - You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: +1 card per card in your hand, discard up to 3 cards then put your hand on top of your deck in any order; or gain a card costing up to $4 into your hand. $5 cost.
A kind of Tactician variant I made to fit some of the cards in this set, mainly the cycling one-shots. The more you do in a turn, generally the less you can do with the next. Then I saw I could simply tack on a second effect Workshop, the card going to hand so you could then put it in the deck of you chose again. But maybe gaining two 4s to hand is too good for one card?

Quote
Tutor - action duration, +1 card +1 action. You may set aside an Action or Treasure card from your hand face down. At the start of your next turn, choose one: play it; return it to the pile it came from; or discard it and +2 cards. $3 cost.
This was the very first card I did, which changed several times. It principally let you play an action at the start to enable using the turn's action for a second effect. It finally got to deal with Treasures to maximise diversity and draw dead less often.

And one I'm unsure on:
Quote
Refinery - Action. You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card; or look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. $5 cost.
I see Donald found a to-hand Remodel too strong, but could it be OK across two actions? Thrones can work too.

The next mechanic on another post.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 06:44:14 pm by Aquila »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 08:20:50 am »
+1

I suggest to post less cards at once. I understand why you would want to share all of your ideas at once with us, but given there are no pictures, this is an incredibly long wall of text. Many people won't even start reading it, as they will get tired of it before finishing. I'm saying this before taking any look at your actual cards, just as a friendly tip: Less at once means more detailed feedback, and probably more altogether.

Now I'll check some random cards and give my 2 cents:

Quote
Taskmaster - Action, +1 card +4 actions. If there are any unused actions at the end of your turn, draw 2 less cards for your next turnís hand, down to 3. $4 cost.
On a German forum I already encountered something like this, where spending all your Actions was necessary to achieve something. I think it's not too great to punish somebody for overproducing, though. As I said about LastFootnote's Charlatan already, overproduction is in itself a punishment, as you waste something you put effort in. That said, it doesn't look unbalanced. With +3 Actions it'd maybe even pass as a regular 4$? I don't know. Or just give the penalty every time. Just, I'd suggest to not punish for failing to use your potential.

Quote
Potteries - Action, +4 cards. You may use a second action on this. If you do, +1 buy, + $2. $6 cost.
You might like to check out my Town/Road (click the link in my signature) on how I did spending two Actions on one card. It seemed easier to me back then. And I'd say it is if you only do one card with that ability, but here of course you made it a recurring thing. Which means that yes, you have to learn something new, but you get a whole new bunch of cards that use that thing. That said, I'm not sure how good or bad Potteries is. It seems better than Hunting Grounds, but I'm not sure how much better.

Quote
Advancing Village - Action, +1 card, +2 actions. If this was played from your hand, take an Action Token. $5 cost.
I don't get what you say about "replaying itself infinitely". If the +1 Action token just gives you +1 Action, however would you play this card again?

Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may use the action on the last one you played.
I don't get the last part. Is the +1 Action Token supposed to be something like Royal Carriage? Because if it's just "When you play an Action card, you may use an Action token to get +1 Action", what would "use it on the last one you played" even mean?

navical

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 09:31:26 am »
0

I suggest to post less cards at once. I understand why you would want to share all of your ideas at once with us, but given there are no pictures, this is an incredibly long wall of text. Many people won't even start reading it, as they will get tired of it before finishing. I'm saying this before taking any look at your actual cards, just as a friendly tip: Less at once means more detailed feedback, and probably more altogether.


Definitely this.

Quote
Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may use the action on the last one you played.
I don't get the last part. Is the +1 Action Token supposed to be something like Royal Carriage? Because if it's just "When you play an Action card, you may use an Action token to get +1 Action", what would "use it on the last one you played" even mean?
I assume it's meant to be
Quote
While this is in play, when you spend an Action token, you may replay the last Action you played instead of getting +1 Action.
Although I can't find a perfect wording either, I think that's clearer?
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 11:27:31 am »
0

I suggest to post less cards at once.
Good call. I should thank you both for reading what you have.

Edit: so I split them up according to their mechanics.

Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may use the action on the last one you played.
I don't get the last part. Is the +1 Action Token supposed to be something like Royal Carriage? Because if it's just "When you play an Action card, you may use an Action token to get +1 Action", what would "use it on the last one you played" even mean?
So you play Executive, and discard some Treasures to get some action tokens. If there are no actions left after this, you would pay a token to gain +1 action in the usual way. You can choose to play an action from your hand at this point.
Or you can use the action you just got from the token on the Executive, since it is the last action you played. So it would still count as using an action, and you would again have none left.
Now the difficulty with wording; suppose after the Executive you play Potteries, then pay another token and use the action on the Potteries. You are using 'a second action' on it and would get the Woodcutter effect. If you were to 'replay' the Potteries like with Royal Carriage you would replay the card and get 4 cards again.

I hope this makes sense since it helps to explain this:
Quote
Advancing Village - Action, +1 card, +2 actions. If this was played from your hand, take an Action Token. $5 cost.
I don't get what you say about "replaying itself infinitely". If the +1 Action token just gives you +1 Action, however would you play this card again?
I should explain that when I wrote the commentary for each card in my own notes, the rule on Executive was always what action tokens did. I changed them for simplicity and then made Executive to keep the effect. I just forgot to update this.
So with an Executive in play, you'd play Advancing Village, gain a token, which you use on Advancing Village, gain another token, etc.

Edit: adjusted the comments on each card.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 11:56:44 am by Aquila »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 11:30:39 am »
0

Refilling the Supply - again I see this has been explored, and some cards on the forums I feel would work nicely. This mechanic has been adjusted many times in this set, and I'll explain my thoughts at the cards:

Quote
Banner - Action Victory, 1 VP. Put this on a non-Victory Supply pile of your choice. / When you buy this, gain the card under it and -1 buy. $4 cost.
I thought long and hard about putting a card on another pile to disrupt opponents. Even if you move a Copper, it just doesn't work; in games with no +buys you can completely deny a pile, and that's to yourself too. Ultimately it takes the fun away. The closest you get in present Dominion is Embargo and Tax, and they let you gain the pile's card. OTOH, the mechanic does make for some interesting features, such as stopping self-gaining actions like Rats.
So, Banner should take all of this into consideration. One notable use for it is adjusting the cost of a pile. This can make it a (too?) strong opener, but conveniently you get two of them to try and balance things a bit. It's a Victory so it can't be put on itself, there will be more of them with more players and if a player intends to junk an opponent with them, they will get some compensation. Finally, I hope the -buy makes sense here.

Quote
Blueprints - Action. Return a Victory card from your hand to the pile it came from for +1 action + $2. If it costs $4 or more, +3 cards, trash a card from your hand and when you buy your first card this turn, gain another card of the same cost. $5 cost.
The act of returning a Victory, giving opponents more opportunity, should merit a large bonus. It's probably a niche card. It trashes to prevent players making a golden deck that gets Dominate's 9VP every turn and thus an endless game.

Quote
Entrepreneur - Action reaction. +1 action + $1. If the Entrepreneur Supply pile is empty, +1 card. / When any other player trashes a card, you may return this to the Supply gain a card costing up to $5. $2 cost.
The set's reaction. Seeing as most defensive reactions are covered I tried a mildly aggressive one. Returning it to counter itself should be safe to do rather than trashing since players won't trash all the time. It really speeds up games and I'm likely quite daring to cost it 2 and not 3.

Quote
Wastelands - victory. If you have 15 or fewer cards in your deck, this is worth 5VP, otherwise 2VP. / When you gain this, trash up to 3 cards you have in play. $5 cost.
The set's alt VP, which I designed from the start to be good with pile returners, so it could be used as just a trasher if a player wished. I see Donald tried a scaling reverse Gardens, and said it was hard to balance. So here's one that triggers with the same deck size as Wall.

The rest next post.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2017, 11:32:08 am »
0

Different attacks - I don't think these ideas are on the forums yet. Most attacks that haven't been done yet are durations, so these are all durations.

Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.

Quote
Revolters - Action attack duration. After each other player resolves their first action during their next turn, they get -1 action; if they have none left, instead look at the top card of their deck and choose to have them discard it or put it back. At the start of your next turn: +1 action. $4 cost.
Attack that goes against the numerous actions of this set, whilst itself being a delayed Village. It was non-terminal but if it's too strong it'll just encourage big money play.

Quote
Toxic Waste - Action Attack Duration. While this is in play, all cards not in the Supply cost $1 less, but not less than $0. When any other player plays a card costing $1 or less that isn't a copy of one played earlier that turn, they gain a Curse. At the start of your next turn: + $2. $5 cost.
So besides cards that say they're not in the Supply, cards in everyone's decks, hands, discard piles and in play are reduced. This may be too strong a curser (copper), that's why the next turn bonus is conservative. It also messes around with remodelers and Knights, and Swindler... Saboteur incarnate.

The next lot is rather different.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 11:52:30 am »
0

Sets of cycling one-shots - I call them Wanderer cards as they wander in and out of the kingdom. Firstly the text on the randomiser card:
Quote
Shuffle the Wanderer cards before each game. Keep them face down except for the top card, which is the only one that can be bought. They cannot be gained or trashed. When you buy a Wanderer, it stays in play until the end of your next turn, after which return it to the bottom of this pile. Effects are played at the start of a player's turn.
So they're a Supply pile, but they don't have the Action type. Each Wanderer should be strong for its cost as you pay for one use. To avoid them being too swingy, I think it best to create different sets of (10 of) them with different themes, and if a more casual player wants he can shuffle them all together.

To highlight the strengths of this mechanic here's a few cards that I think shine best with it:
Quote
Challenger - Wanderer. If a Supply pile empties on your turn, gain a Province or two Duchies. $3 cost.
So you buy the Challenger for 3, then clean up, leaving this in play like a duration. Your next turn comes around and its effect becomes active. At the end of your turn, whether you got to empty a pile or not, it goes back on the bottom of the Wanderers pile, face down. This should be a fun card to use; the buyer has to get timing right, but even then his opponents can try to stop him on their turns. If there were more than one of them it puts too much pressure on the game.

Quote
Roadblock - Wanderer. While this is in play, any player who would draw or gain cards into their hand discards them instead, and no one can discard or trash from their hand either. $1 cost.
Unlike Challenger, this Wanderer's effect is a duration (perhaps it can have the duration type), so you buy it, your turn ends, and it does something for each player's next turn. After your turn, it's returned.
This seals everyone's hand for a turn, including yours. This was an action duration curse, but a game where it's in constant effect would be very dull. It was asking to be a Wanderer.

Quote
Warband - Wanderer attack. Trash down to 2 cards from your hand. Each other player discards down to 2 cards. $3 cost.
Anything wrong with going down to 2 cards for one turn? The buyer needs to be careful to have a hand with enough junk in it. It could easily change to Legionary's attack.

But I've set these aside for other potential sets of Wanderers. This first set is very simple, with the theme of engine support. Consequently they all have a strong opening effect too, so these may be stretching swinginess to its limit.
 
Quote
Bard - Choose one: +2 actions; gain 2 Silvers; or trash 2 cards from your hand. $2 cost.
  Circus Troupe - +1 buy. Cards everywhere cost $1 less, but not less than $0. Gain a copy of the first card you buy costing 5 or less. $4 cost.
  Evacuees - +1 action + $2. When you buy this, +1 buy. $1 cost.
  Painter - Choose an action card in the Supply. Treat this as if it were that action for this turn and play it. $4 cost.
  Ramblers - + $1 per Victory card you have in play this turn. At your buy phase, you may play Victory cards from your hand. When you buy this, +1 buy. $1 cost.
  Roadshow - +1 card +1 action + $1 +1 buy. You may trash a card from your hand. $2 cost.
  Royal Visit - When you buy this, each other player draws a card. +4 cards. $3 cost.
  Secret Dealer - + $4 +1 buy. You can't buy Victory cards. $3 cost.
  Survivalist - Do this three times: discard any number of cards from your hand to draw that many cards. When you buy this, +1 buy. $1 cost.
  Tracker - Wanderer Reaction. While this is in play, when any player gains a card, look at the top card of your deck; trash it, discard it or put it back. $2 cost.
Each 1 cost doesn't use a buy as few players want to use a turn to gain just a 1.

So imagine this set had Warband in it. The player who buys this one attack card in the set is at a significant advantage as no one else gets to attack the same way for ages. On a similar note, if just one of the cards Cursed, Looted, gave VP tokens, etc. it would feel a clumsy design, just having one such card or token given out. On action cards they can be a more constant feature.
This is another reason for my thinking these are best in defined sets. If you have a Cursing Wanderer, have them all deal with Curses to make them a definite feature of the game.

I may design and post another set or two, but the ideas are out there now, feel free to make your own.

That's all my definites for now, I have other ideas which I'll reserve for later. Feel free to comment, criticise or suggest improvements. I don't mind criticism, it's essential to perfecting any design.
Thx for reading!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 06:57:12 pm by Aquila »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2017, 12:04:30 pm »
0

Hum, I'm really not sure I like the idea of being allowed to re-play cards that are already in play. It seems wonky with Durations, at least. If you want to keep that ability, you should fix up Executive instead of altering other cards that give out the token: "While this is in play, when you play an Action card from your hand, you may first spend any number of +1 Action Tokens to play that card that many additional times."
That would stack with several, though. An alternative would be to just introduce an own type of token: "Take that many Executive Tokens..."

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2017, 01:36:38 pm »
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Some adjustments thanks to your feedback.

I guess a lot of confusion arises with this whole 'second action' idea. If we remove that things should be easier. I can do what I did to the unnamed remodeler, 'choose one... You may use two actions on this'.

Quote
Glassworks - action. Choose one: return up to 2 cards from your hand to the piles they came from, and you may gain a card costing exactly the sum of the returned cards; or draw up to 6 cards in your hand. You may use two actions on this. $5 cost.
Should play just the same, only Thrones let you do one then the other too.

Quote
Potteries - Action, choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, + $2. You may use two actions on this. $6 cost.
I feared that playing Village-this to draw 4 cards twice would be too strong, so it's down to 3 but hopefully a lot simpler. I'm toying with adding 'when you gain this, take 2 action tokens.'

Quote
Steelworks - Action. Choose one: draw up to 9 cards in hand, then put 3 cards from your hand on the bottom of your deck; or reveal your hand, and if there areÖ 3 or more Treasures, + $2; 3 or more Actions, +2 actions; 1 or more Victory cards, +1 buy. You may use two actions on this. $5 cost.
This is quite a bit stronger; you can reveal your hand twice for 3 actions and/or $4, but it'll be harder to get with a 4 card hand.

Quote
Textile Mill - Choose one: +1 card per card in your hand, discard up to 3 cards then put your hand on top of your deck in any order; or gain a card costing up to 4 into your hand. You may use two actions on this. $5 cost.
The Workshop part gains to hand to work better with the first part, but would two 4s to hand be too strong?

A change to Taskmaster to be similar to Lost City's balance:
Quote
Taskmaster - Action, +1 card +4 actions. When you gain this, draw 2 less cards for your next turnís hand, down to 3.
The skill element is still there. There could be some complex reason to gain one just for the effect.

These changes should make Executive and Expert much simpler:
Quote
Executive - Action, +1 card. Discard any number of Treasure cards. Take an Action Token per card discarded. While this is in play, when you spend an Action Token you may replay the last action you played instead of +1 action. $6 cost.
Quote
Expert - Action. Choose one: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin or +1 buy, then replay the last action you resolved that is not an Expert. $5 cost.

About replaying durations, the instructions for Royal Carriage seem to imply you can only do so on the turn you play them, and not on their later effects. If you do so the card stays out with it for easy tracking. It wouldn't make sense with Hireling otherwise. And it can't replay reserves as they're never in play after they're resolved. So, with the cards changed to be like this, the same rule would apply, the action token (Executive) or Expert card staying with the duration.

Hopefully improvements.
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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2017, 05:05:05 pm »
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It's not at all clear what "you may use 2 actions on this" means. To me, it reads "you may play this card and have it consume 2 actions instead of 1", with no additional effect.

Do you actually mean "You may use an additional Action to play this card a second time"?
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faust

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2017, 07:28:53 pm »
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Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
This has serious problems with Crown. You are forced to play Crown, but it's your Action phase, so uh I suppose you can throne an Action. What if I draw more Treasures? Do I have to play them? Am I allowed to play them? And what if I discard some of the Treasures in my hand? Am I still required to play them?

Similar problems, to a lesser extent, occur with Counterfeit - did I play the counterfeited card and have thus fulfilled the requirement to play it, or does Consumerist line up the cards in your hand for play and you have to play them even when they stop being in your hand? And if I Counterfeit Rocks to gain a Silver in hand, what about that?

Unfortunately, I do not have a good idea of how to fix these issues while keeping the premise. Other than that, I would add that gaining a card at the start of your turn rather than at its end is usually considered a bonus, so I'm not sure the attack is strong enough to be worth it.
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Shvegait

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2017, 08:34:35 pm »
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It's not at all clear what "you may use 2 actions on this" means. To me, it reads "you may play this card and have it consume 2 actions instead of 1", with no additional effect.

Do you actually mean "You may use an additional Action to play this card a second time"?

These cards give you an extra optional effect, if you pay Actions. Think of how Butcher lets you pay Coin tokens, and then that gives you an extra benefit. Here, you pay Actions for the extra benefit.

Take Potteries for example (using the version from the first post). When you play it, it's just like Hunting Grounds. Then, you can pay another Action (if you have one) for +1 Buy, +$2.

I find the wording on these cards a bit confusing, especially considering the explanation on how Action tokens work. The card texts themselves should be enough to explain how the card works. The alternating back and forth between 1st action part and 2nd action part seems too complicated. The concept of "using two actions" is certainly ambiguous and should be reworded.

I think the concept could work somehow like this, for example:

Quote
Potteries - $6 Action - +3 Cards, You may pay an Action. If you did, +1 Buy, +$2.

This wording would be consistent with Storyteller, but still might be a little ambiguous on its own because Action is an overloaded word in Dominion (see Diadem). Actually, if you want to be consistent with Diadem, you may want to say "You may pay an unused Action", but I'm not sure that's necessary.

As for Action tokens, you could make them work just like Coin tokens from Guilds. Instead, you would have, during your Action phase, you may spend an Action token, for +1 Action. I think that is what you intended, though I'm not sure. I would think, though, to prevent some rules problems or confusion, you would want to limit when Action tokens can be spent to after completely resolving an Action, or whenever you "may pay an Action".

Unfortunately, by Executive changing Action tokens into Royal Carriage effects, the only reasonable time to be able to spend Action tokens is after completely resolving an Action, which doesn't work nicely with the "may pay an Action"/"use two Actions on this" cards. Honestly, though, Executive is overpowered and probably needs to change anyway. A single Executive and a single Bridge can end the game in just a few turns, as soon as you can get 7 or 8 Action tokens and collide Executive and Bridge.

Some interesting card effects here. Haven't even looked beyond the Action theme yet.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 08:43:40 pm by Shvegait »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2017, 05:50:49 am »
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Some good observations, thank you all.

Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
This has serious problems with Crown. You are forced to play Crown, but it's your Action phase, so uh I suppose you can throne an Action. What if I draw more Treasures? Do I have to play them? Am I allowed to play them? And what if I discard some of the Treasures in my hand? Am I still required to play them?

Similar problems, to a lesser extent, occur with Counterfeit - did I play the counterfeited card and have thus fulfilled the requirement to play it, or does Consumerist line up the cards in your hand for play and you have to play them even when they stop being in your hand? And if I Counterfeit Rocks to gain a Silver in hand, what about that?

Unfortunately, I do not have a good idea of how to fix these issues while keeping the premise. Other than that, I would add that gaining a card at the start of your turn rather than at its end is usually considered a bonus, so I'm not sure the attack is strong enough to be worth it.
This may skew game mechanics too far, but:
"Each other player starts their next turn with a Buy Phase, in which they keep their hand revealed and play all Treasures. (They still have a Buy Phase after their Action Phase.)"
The potential this has is when a player can hit 8 but only with the actions he has. Instead he gets two buy phases with less than 8 to spend.

It's not at all clear what "you may use 2 actions on this" means. To me, it reads "you may play this card and have it consume 2 actions instead of 1", with no additional effect.

Do you actually mean "You may use an additional Action to play this card a second time"?

These cards give you an extra optional effect, if you pay Actions. Think of how Butcher lets you pay Coin tokens, and then that gives you an extra benefit. Here, you pay Actions for the extra benefit.

Take Potteries for example (using the version from the first post). When you play it, it's just like Hunting Grounds. Then, you can pay another Action (if you have one) for +1 Buy, +$2.

I find the wording on these cards a bit confusing, especially considering the explanation on how Action tokens work. The card texts themselves should be enough to explain how the card works. The alternating back and forth between 1st action part and 2nd action part seems too complicated. The concept of "using two actions" is certainly ambiguous and should be reworded.

I think the concept could work somehow like this, for example:

Quote
Potteries - $6 Action - +3 Cards, You may pay an Action. If you did, +1 Buy, +$2.

This wording would be consistent with Storyteller, but still might be a little ambiguous on its own because Action is an overloaded word in Dominion (see Diadem). Actually, if you want to be consistent with Diadem, you may want to say "You may pay an unused Action", but I'm not sure that's necessary.
How does this read:
"Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy +$2. You may use a second action on this to replay it."

As for Action tokens, you could make them work just like Coin tokens from Guilds. Instead, you would have, during your Action phase, you may spend an Action token, for +1 Action. I think that is what you intended, though I'm not sure. I would think, though, to prevent some rules problems or confusion, you would want to limit when Action tokens can be spent to after completely resolving an Action, or whenever you "may pay an Action".
I never did explain did I? Well this is exactly what I thought.

Unfortunately, by Executive changing Action tokens into Royal Carriage effects, the only reasonable time to be able to spend Action tokens is after completely resolving an Action, which doesn't work nicely with the "may pay an Action"/"use two Actions on this" cards. Honestly, though, Executive is overpowered and probably needs to change anyway. A single Executive and a single Bridge can end the game in just a few turns, as soon as you can get 7 or 8 Action tokens and collide Executive and Bridge.
Ah yes, I had kept my Canal in mind but I suppose a Bridge-Silver opening would be too fast. If I limited the number of Treasures it could discard to 2?
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faust

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2017, 07:45:20 am »
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Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
This has serious problems with Crown. You are forced to play Crown, but it's your Action phase, so uh I suppose you can throne an Action. What if I draw more Treasures? Do I have to play them? Am I allowed to play them? And what if I discard some of the Treasures in my hand? Am I still required to play them?

Similar problems, to a lesser extent, occur with Counterfeit - did I play the counterfeited card and have thus fulfilled the requirement to play it, or does Consumerist line up the cards in your hand for play and you have to play them even when they stop being in your hand? And if I Counterfeit Rocks to gain a Silver in hand, what about that?

Unfortunately, I do not have a good idea of how to fix these issues while keeping the premise. Other than that, I would add that gaining a card at the start of your turn rather than at its end is usually considered a bonus, so I'm not sure the attack is strong enough to be worth it.
This may skew game mechanics too far, but:
"Each other player starts their next turn with a Buy Phase, in which they keep their hand revealed and play all Treasures. (They still have a Buy Phase after their Action Phase.)"
The potential this has is when a player can hit 8 but only with the actions he has. Instead he gets two buy phases with less than 8 to spend.
A hopefully simpler solution I thought of:

"While this is is play, when another player starts their turn, they reveal their hand and set aside all Treasure cards. Then they play the cards set aside in any order."

This still has weirdness with Crown, but the rules should be clear; any additional Treasures are not played. It nerfs Counterfeit since you don't get to trash anything, but that's fine.

On power level: I get that, but hitting $8 is only really important late-game; maybe the attack hurts very early as well if you would reach $5 with Action + Treasures. Mid-game, gaining the card and being able to play it the same turn may well be a bonus; providing virtual +buy may be a bonus too. Attacks that are sometimes beneficial can work (see Haunted Woods) and it's an interesting way to attack a player, but I think the other effects of the card are too weak.
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Shvegait

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2017, 09:09:17 am »
0

How does this read:
"Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy +$2. You may use a second action on this to replay it."

I think this might be OK, but I would drop the word "second" because it's confusing (or re-word depending on what you want the card to do). Consider the case where you do use a second action to replay it. Then you are faced with the same choice: "You may use a second action on this to replay it". But what does that mean now? Are you not allowed to, because it would be a "third" action? Or are you allowed to? For that particular play of the action card, it's only your "second" action. That's the reason I think something like "You may pay an Action to replay this" would be more clear.

Also keep in mind that as written, this lets you pick +3 Cards each time, if you want. Note that the first play is a Smithy, but each subsequent play is a Hunting Grounds (because you don't have to play another card from your hand for the effect). So this might be too strong, when there are cheap villages.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 09:12:22 am by Shvegait »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2017, 10:43:19 am »
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How does this read:
"Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy +$2. You may use a second action on this to replay it."

You're running into a few of the troubles I tried to avoid with my Road (yes, this is shameless self-advertizing in a way, but maybe it'll be insightful, after all):
First, it's a hard to track how many buys and coins you have. Admittedly, my Road can't track the Actions it used, either - but here you're counting 3-dimensional: Coins, Buys AND Actions.
Second, my card isn't in the supply as a +1 Action token on it would draw your deck. That still works with Champion, though that's a bit harder to achieve and kinda over the top either way. Here it's worse, because the card actually generates unlimited amounts of coins and buys, which means putting the token here and drawing one=Victory.
Third, Road comes with a Village for the reason that it gets easier to balance without being useless from time to time.
Lastly, the wording: If I played this at first with a Herold, Throne Room or something like that, I never spent a "first" action on it, so may I actually use a "second" one?

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2017, 12:01:14 pm »
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OK, so the wording is still misleading. What it needs to convey is when you play the action, you have the option of using one extra action on it to replay it, but avoid 'replaying' it for such cases as Champion. Maybe...
"You may use an action to do this twice."

Tracking which effect you choose each time is a valid point. When it comes to the number of times you replay an action with Executive or Expert or if you 'use it twice' you can put an action token on the card for each extra time. An idea for indicating which effect you chose is put the token on the picture for one effect and on the text for the other. For some tracking cases (such as maybe KC-Pawn or Courtier) you just have to be creative.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2017, 01:38:41 pm »
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Other suggestions:

"Choose one: A; B
You may pay/expend/use up/lose one of your Actions, to choose a second time (the choice may be the same)."

or:
"Choose one: A; B
If you have unused actions, you may choose a second time (the choice may be the same). If you do: -1 Action"

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2017, 12:47:19 pm »
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Appreciate the suggestions, but I think I like the 'do this twice' format the best. It already exists on Remake. And I think it should go first, so that running through the effects in order one doesn't think they can use an extra action to then choose two more times. So like this:
Quote
Action. You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to 2 more than the trashed card; or look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. 5 cost.
Canal - +1 buy. You may use an extra action on this. If you do, cards everywhere cost 2 less this turn, but not less than 0. For the first time Canal is played on your turn, when you gain a card, you may gain a Treasure costing up to 4. 5 cost.
Colliery - +1 card. You may use an extra action to do the following twice, or two extra actions for three times: +2 coins, discard a card. 4 cost.
Glassworks - You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: return up to 2 cards from your hand to the piles they came from, and you may gain a card costing exactly the sum of the returned cards; or draw up to 6 cards in your hand. 5 cost.
Potteries - You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, +2 coins. 6 cost.
Does this make complete sense? Do they need the 'extra' there?

And two other proposed tweaks:
Quote
Cameo - Treasure, +$2. Take an Action Token. You may put a card from your hand on top of your deck. $4 cost.
Generally more playable.

Quote
Patency - When you first gain this, set aside 2 different Action cards other than Patency from the Supply costing up to a total of $8. When you play this, it becomes the action on the left until it is resolved, then, unless this has left play, the one on the right. $7 cost.
Wording adjustment that should play durations and reserves in a balanced way. Put a Reserve on the left and the right card never gets played as Patency goes to the Tavern mat, leaving play.
If a Duration is the left card, then we follow on from what was discussed earlier with Royal Carriage's interaction with durations; it is resolved after the immediate turn's effects are completed, not the later ones. Patency will then become the right card, thereby cancelling the next turn effects. So no shenanigans with Tactician or Hireling.
And if either are on the right, they play normally.
Well, that was wordy... I hope you get it.
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Shvegait

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2017, 08:42:38 pm »
+1

Appreciate the suggestions, but I think I like the 'do this twice' format the best. It already exists on Remake. And I think it should go first, so that running through the effects in order one doesn't think they can use an extra action to then choose two more times. So like this:
Quote
Colliery - +1 card. You may use an extra action to do the following twice, or two extra actions for three times: +2 coins, discard a card. 4 cost.
Does this make complete sense? Do they need the 'extra' there?

A problem with this wording is that it's not clear what happens if you choose not to use an extra action. I know you intend it to mean that you do the part that follows a single time, but it's not clear from the wording. The way it reads, you don't actually get any benefit from playing the card at all unless you spend additional actions. Something like "Otherwise, do it once" is needed, which could be in parentheses.

I like Asper's suggestion of "If you have unused Actions, you may ... -1 Action". It doesn't require any additional rules and it's not too wordy. The only problem is that it doesn't work nicely with every possible clause you have after it, but if you have something like discard a card, it's pretty clean.

How about this?
Quote
Colliery - +1 Card, +1 Action. Do this three times: If you have any unused Actions, you may discard a card, for -1 Action, +$2.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Revolution and other ideas
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2017, 03:47:45 pm »
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Updated the OP with wording changes and hopefully clearer commentary on each card.

Appreciate the suggestions, but I think I like the 'do this twice' format the best. It already exists on Remake. And I think it should go first, so that running through the effects in order one doesn't think they can use an extra action to then choose two more times. So like this:
Quote
Colliery - +1 card. You may use an extra action to do the following twice, or two extra actions for three times: +2 coins, discard a card. 4 cost.
Does this make complete sense? Do they need the 'extra' there?

A problem with this wording is that it's not clear what happens if you choose not to use an extra action. I know you intend it to mean that you do the part that follows a single time, but it's not clear from the wording. The way it reads, you don't actually get any benefit from playing the card at all unless you spend additional actions. Something like "Otherwise, do it once" is needed, which could be in parentheses.

I like Asper's suggestion of "If you have unused Actions, you may ... -1 Action". It doesn't require any additional rules and it's not too wordy. The only problem is that it doesn't work nicely with every possible clause you have after it, but if you have something like discard a card, it's pretty clean.
I went with do it once, since as you said the format wouldn't work very well for all the multiple action cards, so I decided to keep them all the same. That said, it could work (now I notice Diadem says 'unused actions'). Here they both are:
Quote
Colliery - +1 card. You may do the following once, use an extra action to do it twice, or two extra actions for three times: + $2, discard a card.
Quote
Colliery - +1 Card, +1 Action. Do this three times: If you have any unused Actions, you may discard a card, for -1 Action, +$2.

Quote
Potteries - Action, You may use an extra action to do the following twice. Choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, + $2.
Quote
Potteries - choose one: +3 cards; or +1 buy, + $2. If you have any unused actions, you may choose again for -1 action.
I could even try the second use format again:
Quote
Potteries - +4 cards. If you have any unused actions, you may do: -1 action, +1 buy, + $2.
I would appreciate opinions as to what format is best.

And so this isn't all just a discussion on how to word cards properly, I'll put the question out:
Quote
Consumerist - Action attack duration. Each other player reveals their hand at the start of their turn and plays all Treasure cards, then pays all their $. They may gain a card costing up to the amount. At the start of your next turn: +1 card + $2. $5 cost.
Split your opponents' total coins for the turn in two. It has them gain a card to save Black Market-like confusion, particularly involving debt, and it prevents on-buy effects too. This may be strong, or at least swingy in its impact.
...
This may skew game mechanics too far, but:
"Each other player starts their next turn with a Buy Phase, in which they keep their hand revealed and play all Treasures. (They still have a Buy Phase after their Action Phase.)"
The potential this has is when a player can hit 8 but only with the actions he has. Instead he gets two buy phases with less than 8 to spend.
A hopefully simpler solution I thought of:

"While this is is play, when another player starts their turn, they reveal their hand and set aside all Treasure cards. Then they play the cards set aside in any order."

This still has weirdness with Crown, but the rules should be clear; any additional Treasures are not played. It nerfs Counterfeit since you don't get to trash anything, but that's fine.

On power level: I get that, but hitting $8 is only really important late-game; maybe the attack hurts very early as well if you would reach $5 with Action + Treasures. Mid-game, gaining the card and being able to play it the same turn may well be a bonus; providing virtual +buy may be a bonus too. Attacks that are sometimes beneficial can work (see Haunted Woods) and it's an interesting way to attack a player, but I think the other effects of the card are too weak.
I realised making Consumerist start turns with buy phases gets really wonky with Villa, so before bothering to get the wording sussed, is his attack too weak based on faust's reasoning?
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