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Author Topic: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?  (Read 9630 times)

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pacovf

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2017, 01:38:34 pm »
0

I haven't seen anybody intentionally manipulate their discards in order to influence their reshuffle

Once, the turn after playing a tactician, I draw 4 extra cards from my deck, and need to reshuffle my discard (just two cards, a Forge and something else). The temptation to cheat never felt greater.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2017, 01:44:08 pm »
0

I haven't seen anybody intentionally manipulate their discards in order to influence their reshuffle

I've had to deal with this in MTG and Tichu. Players who, before shuffling normally, pile shuffle or separate out their lands to distribute them throughout. They think they're just trying to "help randomize" it by making sure cards that were together are no longer clumped together... not understanding that that's not how randomization works, and that doing so is either pointless if you shuffle well after, or cheating if you don't.
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pacovf

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2017, 01:46:15 pm »
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I think it was proven that starting from a non-clumped deck requires less shuffles to reach a randomized state than a clumped one? Which is not to say that an evenly-spaced land distribution is randomized, of course.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2017, 02:13:32 pm »
+2

I think it was proven that starting from a non-clumped deck requires less shuffles to reach a randomized state than a clumped one? Which is not to say that an evenly-spaced land distribution is randomized, of course.

That literally can't be true.... if random is defined as "each card has an equal probability of ending up in any given position", then the only way the starting state can have any impact on the number of shuffles needed is if the starting state is already at least partially randomized. And purposely keeping lands apart from each other is the opposite of randomized.
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2017, 02:19:02 pm »
+6

I haven't seen anybody intentionally manipulate their discards in order to influence their reshuffle

Once, the turn after playing a tactician, I draw 4 extra cards from my deck, and need to reshuffle my discard (just two cards, a Forge and something else). The temptation to cheat never felt greater.

I always make my wife choose if I only have 2 cards in my discard and am going to draw 1.  Or for 3 cards where I'm not going to draw all of them.  Otherwise it is pretty much impossible to not remember the position of each card and let it influence the way I shuffle.
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2017, 05:20:16 pm »
+1

That literally can't be true.... if random is defined as "each card has an equal probability of ending up in any given position", then the only way the starting state can have any impact on the number of shuffles needed is if the starting state is already at least partially randomized. And purposely keeping lands apart from each other is the opposite of randomized.

Pileshuffling doesn't increase randomness, but it does increase entropy, which contributes towards the desired goal, which is not "each card has an equal probability of ending up in any given position" because that's outright impossible to achieve through physical shuffling, but something more like "each player has a fair chance of getting good draws or bad draws and can't predict the order of the cards". Specifically, pileshuffling makes it significantly more difficult to predict the order of the cards, so it's neither pointless nor cheating.

If you sort your deck into lands and non-lands and then pileshuffle so that the lands end up evenly distributed, that's cheating because it gives you a better than fair chance of good draws. Pileshuffling in order to evenly distribute the essentially-random selection from your deck that is the cards you drew during your previous game doesn't really make your draws better or worse on average so it's not cheating.

To illustrate the point, I might remember that I drew my Force of Will off of a Brainstorm and then played it immediately afterwards last game, resulting in those two cards being on top of one another in my graveyard, resulting in those two cards being on top of one another in my deck before I shuffled it, resulting in a greater chance that they're still on top of one another after I've shuffled it pretty thoroughly but not perfectly because it's never perfect no matter how long you shuffle it.

If I pileshuffled that deck before shuffling for real, the cards end up exactly 10 cards away from one another, and the odds of those cards still being exactly 10 cards away from one another after the actual shuffle is significantly smaller because there are more chances for other cards to get in between and there are more chances for you to completely separate those cards. You could argue that the original problem with the FoW and the Brainstorm now applies with the FoW and the card that was exactly 6 cards away and is now on top of it after the pileshuffle, but in practice, you're never going to remember what card was exactly 6 cards away from the FoW unless you cheat on purpose, so that doesn't matter.
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sorawotobu

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2017, 09:57:37 pm »
0

Of course you're not going to shuffle perfectly, but if you just shuffle somewhat ok pile "shuffling" does nothing. In particular this part

If I pileshuffled that deck before shuffling for real, the cards end up exactly 10 cards away from one another, and the odds of those cards still being exactly 10 cards away from one another after the actual shuffle is significantly smaller because there are more chances for other cards to get in between and there are more chances for you to completely separate those cards.

is not even remotely true unless you shuffle extraordinarily poorly. Just learn how to riffle shuffle.
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pacovf

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2017, 11:59:08 pm »
0

I think it was proven that starting from a non-clumped deck requires less shuffles to reach a randomized state than a clumped one? Which is not to say that an evenly-spaced land distribution is randomized, of course.

That literally can't be true.... if random is defined as "each card has an equal probability of ending up in any given position", then the only way the starting state can have any impact on the number of shuffles needed is if the starting state is already at least partially randomized. And purposely keeping lands apart from each other is the opposite of randomized.

I had read that "manaweaved" decks have maximal entropy, which lead to a smaller number of shuffles to randomize them, but any Google search about the topic leads to old Magic discussions about whether it's considered cheating or not, and no actual paper about it, so I might have been wrong.
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2017, 07:13:38 am »
0

Of course you're not going to shuffle perfectly, but if you just shuffle somewhat ok pile "shuffling" does nothing. In particular this part

is not even remotely true unless you shuffle extraordinarily poorly. Just learn how to riffle shuffle.

How is it not even remotely true? The only shuffling technique whose bottle neck is not cards still being partially in the same order after the shuffle that I know of is the corgi shuffle and nobody ever does that. If you riffle about 10 or so times, you can still expect some pairs of cards that were originally next to one another still being that way or very close, not due to the random chance that they would get into the same order again after randomization, but because they never left that order. After a pile shuffle into 6 piles, 2-3 riffles are enough to give you an order where you can't immediately detect any patterns. Of course, you need to shuffle more so that you won't be able to rely on the order being different either, but at that point, the detectable patterns exist because of randomness, not because of shuffling flaws.
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sorawotobu

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2017, 12:40:16 pm »
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If you riffle about 10 or so times, you can still expect some pairs of cards that were originally next to one another still being that way or very close, not due to the random chance that they would get into the same order again after randomization, but because they never left that order.

No. It's been known for centuries that seven shuffles are enough to randomize a deck of 52 cards as well as you could ask for, you can also check out a maths paper on this subject here.
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Awaclus

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2017, 01:04:10 pm »
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No. It's been known for centuries that seven shuffles are enough to randomize a deck of 52 cards as well as you could ask for, you can also check out a maths paper on this subject here.

It has been known in mathematics but it has never been possible to directly apply it to physical shuffling. The math assumes that when you riffle shuffle, each possible way to arrange the cards is equally likely, but this is not the case in practice.
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Loempiaverkoper

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2017, 01:58:05 pm »
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No. It's been known for centuries that seven shuffles are enough to randomize a deck of 52 cards as well as you could ask for, you can also check out a maths paper on this subject here.

The math assumes that when you riffle shuffle, each possible way to arrange the cards is equally likely.

If you mean here: the ways to mix k cards into n-k while maintaining order of the two piles. They don't just assume all possible ways are equal. Page 8 defines a model for riffling (which is pretty natural imo) that gives the same equal probabilities result.

What would be your quarrel with this model?
I can only think of: in real life I would never allow so many cards from the same pile to stay together in a row, but the model does allow this option. Wouldn't taking this into account in the model lead to even quicker randomization?

Of course there can be other real life problems, like sticky fingers gluing your cards together. For this I have a no snacks during dominion policy :P
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Awaclus

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2017, 02:04:47 pm »
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Of course there can be other real life problems, like sticky fingers gluing your cards together. For this I have a no snacks during dominion policy :P

Well, you don't really need sticky fingers for that. It happens a lot in general.
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2017, 11:11:27 pm »
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No. It's been known for centuries that seven shuffles are enough to randomize a deck of 52 cards as well as you could ask for, you can also check out a maths paper on this subject here.

It has been known in mathematics but it has never been possible to directly apply it to physical shuffling. The math assumes that when you riffle shuffle, each possible way to arrange the cards is equally likely, but this is not the case in practice.

No, it's been known from experience that this does in fact randomize the cards. 7 shuffles are enough and pile shuffling doesn't help randomize your cards.
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Awaclus

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2017, 12:16:24 am »
0

No, it's been known from experience that this does in fact randomize the cards. 7 shuffles are enough and pile shuffling doesn't help randomize your cards.

No, it doesn't in fact randomize the cards perfectly and pile shuffling makes it more difficult for you to keep track of where your cards are.
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2017, 03:01:45 am »
+4

The only shuffling technique whose bottle neck is not cards still being partially in the same order after the shuffle that I know of is the corgi shuffle and nobody ever does that.

Noted, do not let a corgi shuffle my deck.  It would probably eat my cards anyway.
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2017, 05:24:37 am »
0

No, it's been known from experience that this does in fact randomize the cards. 7 shuffles are enough and pile shuffling doesn't help randomize your cards.

No, it doesn't in fact randomize the cards perfectly and pile shuffling makes it more difficult for you to keep track of where your cards are.

You're just wrong. If you don't believe me, read up on it; google is your friend.
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Awaclus

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2017, 05:57:54 am »
0

No, it's been known from experience that this does in fact randomize the cards. 7 shuffles are enough and pile shuffling doesn't help randomize your cards.

No, it doesn't in fact randomize the cards perfectly and pile shuffling makes it more difficult for you to keep track of where your cards are.

You're just wrong. If you don't believe me, read up on it; google is your friend.

You're just wrong. If you don't believe me, try actually riffle shuffling a deck 7 times and see what happens.
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2017, 07:21:10 am »
0

No, it's been known from experience that this does in fact randomize the cards. 7 shuffles are enough and pile shuffling doesn't help randomize your cards.

No, it doesn't in fact randomize the cards perfectly and pile shuffling makes it more difficult for you to keep track of where your cards are.

You're just wrong. If you don't believe me, read up on it; google is your friend.

You're just wrong. If you don't believe me, try actually riffle shuffling a deck 7 times and see what happens.

I have done that before. Casino dealers and mathematicians know I'm right, there's plenty of literature out there backing me up but apparently you're just going to believe alternative facts.
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Awaclus

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2017, 07:30:57 am »
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I have done that before. Casino dealers and mathematicians know I'm right

That's probably why they use the corgi shuffle at casinos, right?
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2017, 07:35:21 am »
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I have done that before. Casino dealers and mathematicians know I'm right

That's probably why they use the corgi shuffle at casinos, right?

They do. Also seen in streamed poker tournaments
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2017, 09:02:00 am »
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They wash or corgi shuffle in casinos because that way the dealer can't cheat. Ask any dealer though and they will tell you that riffle shuffling the cards is the best way of randomizing and will get the job done in seven shuffles. If we scroll up from the page drsteelhammer linked, we find this by the way:

Quote
The Gilbert–Shannon–Reeds model provides a mathematical model of the random outcomes of riffling, that has been shown experimentally to be a good fit to human shuffling[2] and that forms the basis for a recommendation that card decks be riffled seven times in order to randomize them thoroughly.[3]
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Awaclus

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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2017, 10:07:29 am »
0

They wash or corgi shuffle in casinos because that way the dealer can't cheat. Ask any dealer though and they will tell you that riffle shuffling the cards is the best way of randomizing and will get the job done in seven shuffles. If we scroll up from the page drsteelhammer linked, we find this by the way:

Quote
The Gilbert–Shannon–Reeds model provides a mathematical model of the random outcomes of riffling, that has been shown experimentally to be a good fit to human shuffling[2] and that forms the basis for a recommendation that card decks be riffled seven times in order to randomize them thoroughly.[3]

I have experimentally shown that the mathematical model is not a good fit to human shuffling. In fact, the mathematical model is the optimal way to shuffle the cards and any human way to shuffle them is worse. The model isn't amazingly far from the truth for the average person, but for card gamers, dealers, magicians and other people who shuffle a lot of cards, your shuffles are much neater, and thusly, further away from the model and also way less effective. Hell, it's possible to practice the riffle shuffle until you can do it perfectly, in which case it's fully deterministic and you end up with the exact same deck configuration in a bunch of cycles.

What the mathematical model does show is that fewer than seven riffle shuffles can't be enough to randomize the deck, but it doesn't show that seven is enough, it's just a lower bound.

Seven riffles plus a pile shuffle are entirely sufficient though. The patterns are there but it doesn't matter since the pile shuffle makes it practically impossible to detect them.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 10:08:51 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2017, 10:33:00 am »
+2

You haven't experimentally shown anything, Awaclus. You're giving an anecdote. What part of "these mathematical models accurately represent real humans shuffling through extensive testing" do you not understand?
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Re: Rules mess ups you haven't seen?
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2017, 10:38:08 am »
0

You haven't experimentally shown anything, Awaclus. You're giving an anecdote. What part of "these mathematical models accurately represent real humans shuffling through extensive testing" do you not understand?

What part of "for card gamers, dealers, magicians and other people who shuffle a lot of cards, your shuffles are much neater, and thusly, further away from the model and also way less effective" do you not understand?
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