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Author Topic: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)  (Read 8285 times)

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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #125 on: January 09, 2018, 06:18:20 pm »
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I'm toying with making the bottom simply reflect the top (as a reaction, discard this to trash two cards from hand or discard pile.) Not entirely sure yet.

Of course, if I do that, since I'm saying you can trash from hand or discard pile, I'm essentially removing any reason for there to BE a reaction.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #126 on: January 11, 2018, 11:37:18 pm »
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Artifact - maybe, 'While this is in play, directly after you when you next buy a Treasure, you may discard this to play that Treasure and get +1 Buy.
Or to save confusion with Venture and potential tracking issues, you could set the Artifact aside (change 'discard this' to 'set this aside' and add 'Discard this at Clean-up' at the end). I can't really see a way to get one card to play one Treasure without implying Throning when you use several Artifacts, though.

I'm not too worried about Venture-Artifact round trips; they aren't infinite loops because you either run out of money or Ventures in the Supply.

I'm trying out this wording, though, to avoid some Throning issues:

"When you buy a Treasure, you may discard the last Artifact you played this turn to play it and +1 Buy."

I don't think this is the final wording but it's closer.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2018, 10:06:11 am »
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Does this work, does it even make sense?

Quote
While this is in play, immediately after you buy a Treasure, you may turn the last face up Artifact you played this turn face down. If you do, +1 Buy and play that Treasure.

I tell you, I'm sort of conflicted on Artifact. Artifact was the first card from this set that worked; it just worked fine out of the box, but this was largely based on a given interpretation of what Artifact does. That interpretation is really, really hard to convey in card text. Any help would be appreciated.

The interpretation is:
When you buy a Treasure, if you have any Artifacts in play, you can discard one of them to buy another card and you get the value of the Treasure, too.
If you have more than one Artifact, you can chain buying and playing Treasures, rather than Throning the Treasure and getting a pile of Buys.

As it turns out, as the card usually turns out when written as card rules, if you have 6 Artifacts in play and Buy a Gold, you can discard them all and get +$18 money and 6 Buys.

I might just need to rewrite the card altogether.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2018, 12:45:47 pm »
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Funny, deciding to rewrite it works really well.

Quote
Artifact - Treasure $4
$1
When you play this, you may pay any amount of your $. If you do, gain a Treasure with a cost equal to the $ you paid, and play it.

The only "loss" here is that it won't allow you to use its power on cards with Debt or Potion costs.
Which I can live with.

(As a bonus, this solves Venture round trips.)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 12:46:55 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2018, 01:39:32 pm »
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If you want it closer to the original wording you could try:

Quote
While this is in play, directly after you buy a Treasure, if that Treasure isn't in play, you may discard this to play that Treasure and +1 Buy.

I think that stops you from using multiples at once? Doesn't stop the Venture thing though.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #130 on: February 04, 2018, 12:07:23 pm »
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Despite my repeated statements that I was not going to make any further large changes to card, I've been testing this Avatar of Greed since the sheer number of lines of text required to make the other Avatar of Greed 'rules-safe' is getting stupid:

Quote
Avatar of Greed - Treasure $4
+1 Buy
If you gained a Curse this turn, +$3. Otherwise, the next time you gain a Curse this turn, +$3.
I've tested it out and (in a Big Money-optimal game) it's maybe a wee bit underpowered. I might need to make it have $1 base and +$2 from the Curse. But I need to test it in more kingdoms, such as ones that draw a lot of cards, or where slog is optimal.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #131 on: March 05, 2018, 06:18:46 pm »
+1

I'm back!
It's been a while since I've had progress, largely because my artist has been on hiatus.

After all that noise about changing cards, I've basically scrapped the Avatar of Greed and replaced it with:

Quote
Token - Treasure $4
+1 Card
Discard a card
$2
-
When you discard this on your turn, if it's not Clean-up, reveal it for + $1.

A little explanation:
At one point, I'd have said that Treasures that draw cards are a big no-no. For one thing, they can swing horribly (this card is worth $2. Or $7. Or maybe more.) On the other hand, they can burn Actions, which is bad.
I find that discarding a card balances the swing out a bit. Also, we live in the era of Nocturne... drawing a card might also draw you Night cards, which I think is cool. This set could use a little more Night card interaction.
The Reaction was built to have synergy with cards like Tactician. Because this is a board game piece!

Finally, the name's not final. It's a board game piece, and I've tried everything from Chessman to Draughtsman... suggest away!

I *think* it's balanced, but if you know it's not, let me know.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2018, 06:35:03 pm »
+1

So, for those interested, a little timeline:

I'm waiting on 4 pieces of art from the 26 originally commissioned. I have the rest. They look gorgeous.
Teaser:

After that, I need to finish the rules up (roughly a week of work.)
Then I'm on to an official unofficial release and then I risk all my cash on printing a few copies.

I suspect that I'll be done by summer!
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #133 on: March 15, 2018, 04:41:35 pm »
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Final Token rules:
Quote
Token - Treasure $3
+1 Card
Discard a Treasure (or reveal you can't.)
$1
-
When you discard this on your turn, if it's not Clean-up, reveal for + $1.
Seems pretty balanced and interesting. It's still a decent gamble, sometime discarding it's best.
As a bonus, if you're playing a Night-heavy deck, there's a good chance that you can keep Night cards you drew.
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #134 on: March 16, 2018, 06:13:25 am »
+1

Final Token rules:
Quote
Token - Treasure $3
+1 Card
Discard a Treasure (or reveal you can't.)
$1
-
When you discard this on your turn, if it's not Clean-up, reveal for + $1.
Seems pretty balanced and interesting. It's still a decent gamble, sometime discarding it's best.
As a bonus, if you're playing a Night-heavy deck, there's a good chance that you can keep Night cards you drew.
Sorry but this looks very bad. If you draw a Treasure you have to discard it so the card drawing is only good if you have lots of Night cards in your deck.
So this is only very rarely a Peddler, normally it is just a Copper. Even with discard for benefit around which can make the card again into a quasi-Peddler I doubt that you want it in your deck. Rather pick the safe option and buy Silver.

There could be something if you get rid of the discard a Treasure thing. Then chances are at least much higher that you draw something decent and the card would be more like a Venture that doesn't dig (but can miss).
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #135 on: March 16, 2018, 10:34:14 am »
+1

Final Token rules:
Quote
Token - Treasure $3
+1 Card
Discard a Treasure (or reveal you can't.)
$1
-
When you discard this on your turn, if it's not Clean-up, reveal for + $1.

Sorry but this looks very bad. If you draw a Treasure you have to discard it so the card drawing is only good if you have lots of Night cards in your deck.
So this is only very rarely a Peddler, normally it is just a Copper. Even with discard for benefit around which can make the card again into a quasi-Peddler I doubt that you want it in your deck. Rather pick the safe option and buy Silver.

There could be something if you get rid of the discard a Treasure thing. Then chances are at least much higher that you draw something decent and the card would be more like a Venture that doesn't dig (but can miss).
The idea here is that you're drawing a higher-end treasure than the one you're discarding; so you draw a Gold, discard a Copper. Or discard a another Token, keep its value.
I originally had it as just "Discard a card" but then found that you just went big money and discarded green cards.
Arguably I could reverse the order of discard and draw, which would mean that you don't discard the treasure you drew right away if this is the last treasure you played this turn.
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #136 on: March 17, 2018, 04:40:09 am »
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Final Token rules:
Quote
Token - Treasure $3
+1 Card
Discard a Treasure (or reveal you can't.)
$1
-
When you discard this on your turn, if it's not Clean-up, reveal for + $1.

Sorry but this looks very bad. If you draw a Treasure you have to discard it so the card drawing is only good if you have lots of Night cards in your deck.
So this is only very rarely a Peddler, normally it is just a Copper. Even with discard for benefit around which can make the card again into a quasi-Peddler I doubt that you want it in your deck. Rather pick the safe option and buy Silver.

There could be something if you get rid of the discard a Treasure thing. Then chances are at least much higher that you draw something decent and the card would be more like a Venture that doesn't dig (but can miss).
The idea here is that you're drawing a higher-end treasure than the one you're discarding; so you draw a Gold, discard a Copper. Or discard a another Token, keep its value.
I originally had it as just "Discard a card" but then found that you just went big money and discarded green cards.
Arguably I could reverse the order of discard and draw, which would mean that you don't discard the treasure you drew right away if this is the last treasure you played this turn.
Seems far more reasonable to play Token last. Then you don't have to discard a Treasure if you draw a non-Treasure card.

As I said, if you get rid of this pointless discarding you have a weaker Venture that randomy draws instead of digging for Treasures and this might be something.
Or you stick with the discarding but dig for Treasures; then Token is to Venture what Oasis is to Peddler.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #137 on: March 20, 2018, 02:32:23 pm »
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TL:DR: Card is too weak if you limit the discard to Treasures.

Okay, so here's some thought experimentation:

If Token draws you a card and discards you a treasure, then it performs in the following ways:

Quote
1) If you play it last, and it draws a non-night, non-Token card, it wastes that card (or removes it, in the case of Curse/Victory) and it's a Copper, possibly a slightly nicer Copper, possibly a much worse Copper, since it might have just thrown out a Gold or a good Action. Certainly not worth $3.
2) If you play it last, and it draws a Night card, then it's worth Copper and a Night card, since you don't discard the Night card. Probably Copper and a Night card is worth around $3 (more if you always drew one, but Copper and a night card with a large chance of failure is worth less than $3 for sure. The whole point of forcing you to discard a Treasure instead of allowing you to discard anything, by the way, is both to limit the power of the card (preventing you from drawing Gold and discarding estate, for example) but to make sure you can keep and play any Night cards.
3) If you play it first, and you draw a Copper and discard a Copper, it's worth Copper, but you paid $3 for it.
4) If you play it first, and you draw a Copper and discard another token, it's worth Silver, but you paid $3 for it and could have bought Silver which is always worth Silver, so why did you bother? Also, you could have played that Token (probably) for at least the $1 that you got from discarding it, maybe more, so why did you bother?
5) If you play it first, and you draw a Silver and discard a Copper, it's worth Silver, but you paid $3 for it and could have bought Silver which is always worth Silver, so why did you bother?
6) If you play it first, and you draw Gold and discard a Copper, it's worth Gold, and you paid $3 for it! That's good but not actually an upgrade from Gold, since you needed to buy that Gold and you need to have the Gold coming up, so what you did was just borrow a Gold from your next turn. You have it now, but you won't have it then (in most cases) so all you're getting is slightly better tempo.
7) If you play it first, and you draw Platinum and discard Copper, it's worth Platinum and you paid $3 for it but all the previous comments about tempo still stand.
8] If you play a totally unrelated card, and discard this, you do get money and that's quite good but somewhat unpredictable, but still rather good. Too good to cost anything less than #3.

Verdict: As currently designed, this card is way too weak played out of hand, but at least worth $3 discarded incidentally. This just means that anyone who actually PLAYS this card is doing it wrong; that's bad design.

Thanks for challenging the card, Holunder9!

If Token draws you a card and discards any card, then it performs in the following ways:

Quote
1) If you play it last, and it draws a non-Token card, it wastes that card (or removes it, in the case of Curse/Victory) and it's a Copper, possibly a slightly nicer Copper, possibly a much worse Copper, since it might have just thrown out a good treasure or a good Action. Certainly not worth $3.
2) If you play it last, and it draws an on-discard Reaction, then it's worth Copper and the discard effect (Gold? Two cards?) which isn't bad usually. Should point out that Antiquities contains discard effects but only the Agora's (put a Silver in your hand) can trigger from this. These are also super edge cases (you won't always be playing with Tunnel) so they can't really be taken into account for card power, only taken into account if you're worried that a card is broken strong. So this still makes this not worth $3.
3-7) The effects for "draw a Treasure, discard a treasure" scenarios are all the same.
8] If you play it first, draw a Copper, discard a dead card (very rarely do you not have these,) it's worth Silver, and cost $3. You could still just get Silver and make it always work this way but w/e.
9) If you play it first, draw a Silver, discard a dead card, it's worth Gold, and cost $3. Also, you no longer have to have bought a Gold to make this work, just a Silver.
10) If you play it first, draw a Gold, discard a dead card, it's worth $4, and cost $3. You have to have bought a Gold already, but at least you're getting something for your investment.
11) If you play it first, draw a Platinum, discard a dead card, it's worth $6, and cost $3. You have to have bought a Platinum already though, so it's not completely broken.
12) If you play a totally unrelated card, and discard this, you do get money and that's quite good but somewhat unpredictable, but still rather good. Too good to cost anything less than #3.

It's fascinating how much changing "Treasure" to "Card" changes the balance.

I'm going to try it at +1 Card, Discard a card, $1, Discarding brings $1 and see whether it needs to get nerfed to $2 or what.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 06:38:03 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #138 on: April 16, 2018, 10:52:17 pm »
0

Turns out I have space for another card in my set. Going to try for a "Snake Pit", which will combine a friendly trasher with an unfriendly attacker.

Something like

Quote
Snake Pit - Action - Attack $4
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trashed two or more cards this turn, gain a Gold.
Each other player trashes a card from his hand or gains a Curse.

Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 11:32:34 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #139 on: April 17, 2018, 12:22:48 am »
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Something I realized is that the way it's worded, after you trash two cards in a turn, you can just keep playing this out for Gold (and trash/Curse attacks) without trashing cards from your hand.

Might keep, but need to think through how it works with other trashers.
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #140 on: April 17, 2018, 04:53:15 am »
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I don't think that this is any good. It is similar to Bishop but instead of VPs you sometimes get Gold. Bishop can easily generate around 10-20 VPs which can compensate the tempo advantage that the other players have.  A few Golds that you can only get when you have a second Snake Pit or another trasher in your deck on the other hand won't.

I like the idea of "they have to trash or a gain a Curse" so perhaps if you choose another benefit but Gold for the active player this could become a playable Bishop variant.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #141 on: April 17, 2018, 06:36:32 pm »
0

I need to playtest this, but here's an update that's nastier in a lot of ways:

Quote
Snake Charmer - Action - Attack - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trashed two or more cards this turn, gain a Gold.

Each other player trashes an Action card from his or her hand or gains a Curse.
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #142 on: April 18, 2018, 03:24:25 am »
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I need to playtest this, but here's an update that's nastier in a lot of ways:

Quote
Snake Charmer - Action - Attack - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trashed two or more cards this turn, gain a Gold.

Each other player trashes an Action card from his or her hand or gains a Curse.
A cantrip trasher and curser in one card is crazy strong. Cantrip trashing is probably already a $5 (it might not have the benefits of Junk Dealer and Upgrade but it is not mandatory which might be useful in the endgame). The gold gaining is more or less ignorable but the attack is basically Familiar.
Of course you could argue that the card defends against itself but it might just come down to a luckfest: whoever gets Snake Charmer first will more or less win the game. The only other card that trashes and junks at the same time, Ambassador, is cheaper.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #143 on: April 18, 2018, 03:54:07 am »
0

I need to playtest this, but here's an update that's nastier in a lot of ways:

Quote
Snake Charmer - Action - Attack - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trashed two or more cards this turn, gain a Gold.

Each other player trashes an Action card from his or her hand or gains a Curse.
A cantrip trasher and curser in one card is crazy strong. Cantrip trashing is probably already a $5 (it might not have the benefits of Junk Dealer and Upgrade but it is not mandatory which might be useful in the endgame). The gold gaining is more or less ignorable but the attack is basically Familiar.
Of course you could argue that the card defends against itself but it might just come down to a luckfest: whoever gets Snake Charmer first will more or less win the game. The only other card that trashes and junks at the same time, Ambassador, is cheaper.

Wow yeah this is busted! The Gold gaining is also super relevant because trashing aggressively and using a Gold gainer to build economy is generally when Gold gainers are at their best (look at things like Donate+Market Square/Windfall as the most extreme examples of this). So this card basically trashes, builds economy and attacks all at once and is a cantrip so it's easy to spam.

Also Catapult trashes and junks at the same time  :P. (I know it's different because you have to trash expensive things.) I guess Vampire/Bat kind of does that too sometimes, but yeah...
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #144 on: April 18, 2018, 04:27:54 am »
0

You are of course right, the Gold gaining is good as you will need several Snake Charmers in your deck. But even without the Gold gaining the card would be broken.

I think that even though non-terminal attacks have become more prominent in the last expansions (Relic, Vampire, Werewolf, Raider, Idol) the old rules still apply: one should think twice about making them (the above mentioned all get away with it because the attack either does not stack in the case of Relic, is a weak Hexing attack in the case of Vampire and Werewolf and happens only every second time in the case of Idol) and thrice about cantrip attacks (Urchin is weak and Familiar is hard to get).
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Chappy7

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #145 on: April 18, 2018, 01:46:04 pm »
0

What if you just made Snake Pit a cantrip? Yeah, it's still a cantrip trasher, which is crazy, but since it lets everyone else trash too, it might be balanced.  The cursing will only come later, and by then, your opponent(s) will have decent control of their deck already due to heavy trashing, so the curses won't be that big of a deal. 

I liked the trash a card or gain a curse thing, but I don't like the trash an action card or gain a curse thing.  At least not on a cantrip. 
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #146 on: April 18, 2018, 02:19:05 pm »
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What if you just made Snake Pit a cantrip? Yeah, it's still a cantrip trasher, which is crazy, but since it lets everyone else trash too, it might be balanced.  The cursing will only come later, and by then, your opponent(s) will have decent control of their deck already due to heavy trashing, so the curses won't be that big of a deal. 

I liked the trash a card or gain a curse thing, but I don't like the trash an action card or gain a curse thing.  At least not on a cantrip.

Yeah, I'm leaning that way, too. Would you keep the "after I trash two, gain a gold?" Or three, depending on balance?
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Chappy7

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #147 on: April 18, 2018, 03:28:48 pm »
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What if you just made Snake Pit a cantrip? Yeah, it's still a cantrip trasher, which is crazy, but since it lets everyone else trash too, it might be balanced.  The cursing will only come later, and by then, your opponent(s) will have decent control of their deck already due to heavy trashing, so the curses won't be that big of a deal. 

I liked the trash a card or gain a curse thing, but I don't like the trash an action card or gain a curse thing.  At least not on a cantrip.

Yeah, I'm leaning that way, too. Would you keep the "after I trash two, gain a gold?" Or three, depending on balance?

I think it's fun, but as Gazbag said, trashing quickly and gaining that kind of immediate economy might be too good. What if it was 'Gain a Silver into your hand' instead?
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #148 on: April 18, 2018, 03:39:58 pm »
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What if you just made Snake Pit a cantrip? Yeah, it's still a cantrip trasher, which is crazy, but since it lets everyone else trash too, it might be balanced.  The cursing will only come later, and by then, your opponent(s) will have decent control of their deck already due to heavy trashing, so the curses won't be that big of a deal. 

I liked the trash a card or gain a curse thing, but I don't like the trash an action card or gain a curse thing.  At least not on a cantrip.

Yeah, I'm leaning that way, too. Would you keep the "after I trash two, gain a gold?" Or three, depending on balance?

I think it's fun, but as Gazbag said, trashing quickly and gaining that kind of immediate economy might be too good. What if it was 'Gain a Silver into your hand' instead?

Silver might be too slow in the long run / I do a lot of that sort of thing already, although it might just be how it should be to keep the balance going.

Although silver works a bit with snake charmers because they are often some kind of beggar, right?

I'm also toying with the alternative rule of "if your hand is empty, gain a gold" instead. It would require you to trash the card you drew, using a third cantrip charmer... The fun part of that is that it would, in some ways, work well with cards like Secret Cave.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 03:43:55 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #149 on: April 19, 2018, 06:00:47 pm »
0

Update: here is a (maybe) faster version that I'm going to try test:

Quote
Snake Charmer - Action - Attack - $4
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand.

Each other player trashes a card from their hand or gains a Curse.
-
At the end of your Action phase, if your hand is empty, + $3.

This might also lower the power level (or raise it!)
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