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Author Topic: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)  (Read 10758 times)

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josh56

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #100 on: September 28, 2017, 05:28:38 pm »
0

I'm testing out the following variant of Digsite:

Quote
Digsite - Action + Victory - $8
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck.
You may trash this. If you do, for each card you revealed...
If it is an Action, Copper, or Silver card, +1VP.
If it is another Treasure card, +2VP.

This gives the player more control over what the card is worth, but makes it a risk-reward choice. Do you buy Province for 6 guaranteed points, or Digsite for maybe $10 -- but not likely.
Yes, I am aware of the insanity of comboing it with Crown.
Seems OK-ish. Even with some Golds or Alt-Treasures in your deck this will on average rarely provide more than 6 or 7 VP.
One problem though is the negative interaction with Victory cards. Now of course you want this before you clog your deck with (unremovable) green anyway but do you really need to make this incentive even stronger? I mean, what's the rationale behind punishing players who still/already have non-Action Victory cards in their deck?
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2017, 09:46:15 pm »
0

There really isn't a rationale per se; it's a lore choice. If I dig up a rare treasure, I'm winning! If I dig up evidence of ancient ways of life (actions), I'm, well actually in reality this would be even more winning, but for the sake of the game, I'm happy, but not as winning. If I dig up land, it's just dirt.

I still have to test this out; I came up with the base mechanic and then polled some friends about how much it should ideally cost -- since its cost is driven by the number of cards it reveals. They wanted to have it compete directly with Province. The idea being that there's a risk-reward payoff -- if you buy Digsite, and another player buys Province, you are in a race to convert your Digsites (at a more lucrative transference than 6 VP, hopefully) before your opponent gets all the Provinces. But nothing stops you from buying Provinces yourself. The major benefit of Digsite would be if you go big money and use this as your main source of VP.

My biggest fear here is that all players go Digsite, then Provinces, and it just makes the game last 2x as long.

Initial test results: Montebanks make Digsites 100% useless. Digsites seem underpowered if there's no other source of trashing.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 11:07:37 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2017, 09:52:05 am »
0

I've started branding the cards with a line at the bottom instead of an icon:


Mainly because I'm using VioletCLM's renderer, and because I think it looks good and I'm too lazy to create an image and then manually brand the cards.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #103 on: October 17, 2017, 10:01:42 am »
0

I'm getting close to finished, and am compiling a list of "recommended sets of 10". Which brings me to the question -- how do you suggest working together a recommended set of 10?
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #104 on: October 30, 2017, 07:23:57 pm »
0

So, for those that are interested, here's how I came up with Recommended Sets:

1) I went through the wiki.ds "Synergy" list for similar cards and cards with similar mechanics and listed them in a matrix. Obviously I had to keep my brain on because "similar mechanics" does mean not adding synergies for when a card does something that my card does not, etc.

2) When I find multiple hits of the same card from a set, flag them in the matrix; e.g., both Archaeologist and Petroglyph have synergy with Hamlet.

3) Also find synergies between multiple Antiquities cards.

4) Make the magic happen by including the cards with the synergies in the list, starting with the cards with the most connecting synergies, then either branch out by adding in more Antiquities cards and their connected synergy cards, or prune out cards until you have a unifying theme.

For the record, Antiquities synergizes most with Dark Ages, Intrigue, Seaside, and Prosperity, in that order.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #105 on: November 01, 2017, 03:31:22 pm »
0

I like how the cards turned out. Your wording really needs to be fixed though. I went ahead and "fixed" them, though I might have changed the intended effect in times it was unclear or screwed them up somehow else.

Quote
Petroglyph (4)
Action - Reaction
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this during an Action phase, you may reveal it and set it aside. If you do, discard it at the start of your next turn and +1 Card.

Quote
Agora (5)
Action - Reaction
+2 Actions
+$2

-
When you discard this other than during your Clean-up phase, you may reveal it, to gain a Silver to your hand.

Quote
Monolith (5)
Action - Reaction - Attack
+2 Cards
You may trash 2 differently named cards from your hand. If you did, +1 VP per $3 of their combined cost (round down).
-
When you discard this on another player's turn, you may reveal it. If you do, look through your discard pile and trash a card from it or your hand.

Quote
Aquifer (5)   
Action - Reaction
+1 Card
+$1

You may play an Aquifer from your hand.
-
When you discard this during your Action phase, you may reveal it, to gain an Aquifer.

Quote
Tomb Raider (3)
Action - Attack
+1 Action
Each other player discards an Attack card (or reveals they can't.) You may gain a copy of a Treasure revealed this way.

Quote
Artifact (4)
Treasure
$1
-
While this is in play, directly after you buy a Treasure, you may discard this. If you do, play that Treasure and +1 Buy.

Quote
Idol (4)
Treasure
$3
-
While this is in play, when you buy a card, put it on your Idol mat. If it was a Curse, take an extra turn after this one, and you draw the cards on your Idol for your next hand instead.

Quote
Digsite (6)
Victory - Action
Discard the top card of your deck. If that card wasnít a Victory card, trash this. If that card costs...
$2 or less, +4VP.
$3 to $5, +5VP.
$6 or more, +6VP.

Quote
Moundbuilder Village (3)
Action
+2 Actions
-
When you discard this from play during your Clean-up phase, look through your discard pile and set aside the card with the highest cost in $ (if itís a tie, you choose). Put that card in your hand at the start of your next turn.

Quote
Encroach (6)
Action
+2 Cards.
+1 Action.

You may discard a Treasure from your hand, to gain a Victory card costing up to 2 more than it onto your deck.

Quote
Stoneworks (4)
Action
+1 Buy.
Trash a card from your hand to gain a Silver and onto your deck. If you trashed a Victory card, +1 VP per $ it costed more than $2.
-
When you gain this, +1VP when you gain a card this turn.

Quote
Graveyard (1)
Action
+2 Actions
-
When you trash this, gain a card from the trash.

Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Reveal then discard 2 cards from your hand. Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a copy of one of the revealed cards (or reveals they canít.)

Quote
Archaeologist (7)
Action
Reveal the top 6 cards of your deck. Put 3 of them into your hand. Choose one: Discard the other revealed cards, or put them onto your deck.

Quote
Mission House (4)
Action
+2 Cards
If you have 5 or less VP tokens, you may discard a Victory card for +1 VP. Otherwise, +2 Actions.

Quote
Mendicant (4)
Action
+1 Action
Gain a Copper and an Estate to your hand. The next time you buy a Victory card this turn, put a Copper in play onto a Kingdom Supply pile.

Quote
Profiteer (4)
Action - Reaction
+1 Buy
+$1

Trash a non-Victory card from the Supply. Cards with the same name as that one cost $1 less this turn.
-
When you would gain a card during an Action phase, you may discard this, to gain a card costing up to $1 more instead.

Quote
Prospector (3)
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action

You may discard a Victory card, to gain a Treasure costing up to $1 more.

Quote
Pyramid (5)
Action
+$5
Trash 2 cards from your hand. Gain 2 Curses.

Quote
Riches (4)
Treasure
$4
-
At the end of your Buy phase, if this is in play, trash all other Treasures you have in play.


Quote
Sarcophagus (6)
Action
Gain an Action card costing up to $4. Play that Action twice, then trash it.
-
When you buy this each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Shipwreck (2)
Action
+1 Buy
+$1

-
When you discard this from play during your Clean-Up phase, look through your discard pile and put a Treasure from it on the bottom of your deck..

Quote
Collector (4)
Action
Trash the top card of your deck. Gain a card costing up to $3 more that shares a type.

Quote
Pharaoh (8)
Action - Attack
Trash your hand. For each Treasure trashed this way, gain a Gold. For each Curse trashed this way, each other player gains a Curse.

Quote
Tomb Guardian (3)
Action - Attack
+ $2
You may gain a Curse, for +1 Action and + $1. If the Curse pile is empty, each other player discards a Treasure (or reveals they canít) and gains a Copper to their hand.

Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action
Look through your discard pile. Choose one: Trash up to two cards from it or your hand; or play a card from it.

Quote
Boulder Trap (3)
Trap   
-1 VP
-
When you discard this on another player's turn, they gain this.
-
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #106 on: November 07, 2017, 10:34:33 am »
+1

Haha, thanks for that!
I'm not quite finished with the set yet, testing continues.
I'm also waiting on Nocturne to finish coming out, since it will contain cards that can clobber mine (RIP Idol) and also contains updates to the language used to describe cards (Moundbuilder Village thanks you!)

For example, Monolith is gone and Discovery is in.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2017, 09:55:16 am »
+1

Here's another teaser; this is the final form of Mendicant:



I need to get around to updating the OP; right now there are 6 more art images left to get; then the set will be released (and hopefully printed!)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 12:11:33 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #108 on: November 28, 2017, 04:50:34 pm »
0

Please, please, please don't print that Mendicant without adding a bar line.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2017, 05:09:27 pm »
0

Good point; For some reason I thought that the two text blocks happen concurrently.

Don't worry, I won't go print a physical copy of any of these without PMing you for last minute proofreading :)
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #110 on: November 28, 2017, 05:57:19 pm »
0



So this is like the last Antiquities card ever.

But it has a problem (besides cost -- it's a 6-cost card currently in my test sessions) -- if there isn't a way to trigger the bottom, it's basically a dead or at least boring card. It's not like Tunnel, where it is a least good as 2VP for $3.

What I'm thinking is a burst of awesome when you "discover" this card, that causes the world to take notice. At this point, I have a few ideas.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 03:05:46 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #111 on: November 29, 2017, 09:55:25 am »
+1

This is actually the version I'll be testing. I have no idea the balance, or fun, but it's INTERESTING.

Like other "Trap" cards, it shuffles into other piles and if you reveal it on the top of a pile, you gain it. You also can't look through the cards or count them anymore when Traps are in play.
Unlike the (one) other trap card, this one doesn't start the game in various other piles -- it starts the game in its own pile and you choose which pile to put it into.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 03:05:56 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #112 on: November 30, 2017, 09:01:44 am »
+1

Update: I think it works well but needs to payoff nerfed to prevent the obvious exploits; I'm thinking of making it gain a card costing from $4 to $6.

I.e.,
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 03:06:16 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #113 on: November 30, 2017, 01:28:56 pm »
+2

I don't think I get what Discovery does. Do you gain it when it gets revealed or do you need to buy it? I assume the latter, because it never says anything else.  Is it supposed to be an Embargo variant? Because if the former applies and you put it into the pile of a card costing 7$ or more, that's what it is. If you put it into a cheap pile, it gives a boost. Do I shuffle the pile face down? How do I shuffle split piles? And if the shuffling is random, isn't this power-neutral in that it might later help/hurt me just as much as it may hurt/help an opponent? In 2P games, this is actually a 50/50 chance, so both outcomes are equally likely and cancel out each other. In other words, isn't this just a one-shot Silver for 2$, power-wise? Why would I go for this, except for edge cases where I want a Silver early and want it removed after that, and can't afford somethign better? Also, why does it need this Setup-clause? I never was a fan of "cover the pile" cards, because I think Embargo does the same thing much cleaner and without rules questions. At any rate, I would suggest putting it anywhere in the pile instead of shuffling it in, to give you more control over when it will re-surface again and to avoid screwing up split piles.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #114 on: November 30, 2017, 02:29:01 pm »
0

The confusion is mostly my fault for not conveying what a Trap card is (there are two in the set, if you count this hybrid. The other is Boulder Trap, which is a -1VP Trap card that curses opponents if you trash it.)

A non-hybrid trap card starts the game in each unsorted Kingdom pile. It's randomly shuffled in and the deck is face-down, like Knights. If you reveal the card from the top of the deck (generally by buying or gaining the card above it) you gain it immediately, for free.

Based on that explanation, does the card make more sense? Whether or not you'd ever buy it is another consideration altogether; as is whether having one set of rules for sorted card piles and another for unsorted is the worst design ever.

Edit: I'm asking if it makes more sense without explaining the intent since the card itself should fill in the pieces that the rulebook entry on "Trap" does not.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 03:10:20 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #115 on: November 30, 2017, 10:14:25 pm »
0

The confusion is mostly my fault for not conveying what a Trap card is (there are two in the set, if you count this hybrid. The other is Boulder Trap, which is a -1VP Trap card that curses opponents if you trash it.)

A non-hybrid trap card starts the game in each unsorted Kingdom pile. It's randomly shuffled in and the deck is face-down, like Knights. If you reveal the card from the top of the deck (generally by buying or gaining the card above it) you gain it immediately, for free.

Based on that explanation, does the card make more sense? Whether or not you'd ever buy it is another consideration altogether; as is whether having one set of rules for sorted card piles and another for unsorted is the worst design ever.

Edit: I'm asking if it makes more sense without explaining the intent since the card itself should fill in the pieces that the rulebook entry on "Trap" does not.

Well, as is, you have two Trap cards, with the rules you describe applying to half of them. It seems a bit like overkill to have a type with rules which apply as often as they don't. Without the type, you could just do something like:


Discovery, Treasure, 2$
2$
When you play this, put it anywhere in a supply pile of your choice, except on top.
---
When this becomes visible at the top of a supply pile other than Discovery's during your turn, gain it and a card costing up to 6$.


I don't really feel I can make out a single main concept for Boulder Trap, because it does so many things at once. Otherwise I might have given a suggestion on how to simplify it.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2017, 04:46:00 pm »
0

Yeah, Boulder Trap has been streamlined a bit (mainly because I can never remember to gain it to the top of a deck)

Now it's just (keeping in mind the Trap rule of "Starts the game randomly hidden in each Kingdom pile. If your reveal it from the top of a pile, gain it.")

Boulder Trap - $3
-1VP
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #117 on: December 01, 2017, 04:46:49 pm »
0

You totally have a point, though; Discovery doesn't need to be a hybrid Trap. It may make more sense as just a Treasure.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #118 on: December 01, 2017, 09:45:35 pm »
0

You totally have a point, though; Discovery doesn't need to be a hybrid Trap. It may make more sense as just a Treasure.

Although I realized you can't do it just as I suggested, because you would just always put it second under the top card of a pile you want to buy a card from. So that needs to be avoided somehow. Of course it could be a Night card instead. It would still work with Vampire, but I think that's it.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #119 on: December 03, 2017, 12:13:35 am »
0

Yeah, right now it's got three kinks to work out:

1) If you shuffle it in, then you have this awkward element with Castles and Split Piles (at one point I simply said you can't put it in those piles, but that seems extra niche.) If you let a player put it wherever they want, it gets awkward if they have +Buys because they could, as you say, buy a card, put them one card down, and then buy the next card to trigger the payoff.
2) The card seems to be pretty swingy if all you do with the payoffs is buy Duchies and if one player lucks out and gets all the payoffs. I don't want to explicitly forbid gaining victory cards, unless I actually just make the payoffs gaining Gold.
3) What happens when a player has a Discovery in their hand and buys the last card in a pile? Do they get the payoff?

Ultimately 1) is the big question to solve; also if I make 2) be "just gain a gold" then 3 can likely be "yes".
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #120 on: December 07, 2017, 10:23:13 am »
0

I'm going to test the "put it however many levels down" wording as a gameplay option, see how it goes. It would solve #1.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #121 on: December 18, 2017, 04:20:27 pm »
0

I tested "put it whereever you want in the pile" instead of shuffling for the Discovery. I got an interesting result from a player psychology point of view.

With shuffling, players bought Discoveries and used them often. They seemed to believe that they will always win the Golds from subsequent buys, even if that's unlikely.

With intelligent placement, players rarely bought Discoveries, avoided using them when possible, and then placed them as far down the pile as possible in order to keep them out of enemy hands. They seemed to believe that the opponent would always win the Golds if not prevented from doing so.

Chances are, this is just inferior play -- a good player would be able to figure out exactly where to put the Discovery; but most of the testers were not willing to try figure it out.

This, combined with the additional time involved in players analyzing where to put the card leads me to say, screw it, shuffle it is.


Edit: and with that, the set is basically done. Watch this space for me to update the OP for final wording scrutiny.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #122 on: December 19, 2017, 10:02:08 am »
0

The OP has been updated for final wording scrutiny!

(Tomb Guardian still might need a rename, due to Guardian. Tomb Raider stays, though.)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 10:26:53 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #123 on: December 24, 2017, 06:37:51 pm »
+1

Here's a scan through:

Petroglyph - reaction should just be 'When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can may reveal it and set it aside.'
Probably fine alongside Faithful Hound, this feels good and belonging in the set.

Discovery - I anticipate card space to be difficult here, especially as you'll probably want to add 'until not on top' to shuffling it into a pile. Making it an Action (+1 action + $2) would help a bit, but that isn't thematic. So maybe:
Quote
(+1 action +) $2
While this is in play, when you next buy a card, shuffle this into that card's pile until the top card is not Discovery.
-
When you reveal this from a non-Discovery Supply pile, gain it and a Gold.
Technically you'd want to put it in a random place in the pile, but that's something only a computer (or another person who isn't playing) could do. Sure it doesn't actually break the game if you shuffle it into the Castles or a split pile, but some people will take issue with a premature Plunder or a King's Castle on top, so this could only ever be a fan card.

Artifact - maybe, 'While this is in play, directly after you when you next buy a Treasure, you may discard this to play that Treasure and get +1 Buy.
Or to save confusion with Venture and potential tracking issues, you could set the Artifact aside (change 'discard this' to 'set this aside' and add 'Discard this at Clean-up' at the end). I can't really see a way to get one card to play one Treasure without implying Throning when you use several Artifacts, though.

Avatar of Greed - only now do I see you can just buy Victories with this and store them on the mat out of the way, very strong on a 4 cost Gold. You could specify non-Victory cards easily enough though.

Digsite doesn't need to be a Victory. I guess this can run into neverending game trouble with Lurker too.

Encroach has a definite feel of too strong about it. Discard a Gold and it's a bit like getting +1 buy + $5 non-terminally, yet you can redraw the Gold later (empty deck, another Encroach would do it). I'm imagining a choose one clause between draw and the discard may make a balanced card.

Archaeologist - maybe, 'Reveal Look at the top 6 cards of your deck. Put 3 of them into your hand, Choose one: then either discard the remaining cards or put them onto your deck back in any order.'

Profiteer - just its top part, 'Trash a non-Victory card from the Supply. Cards with the same name as that one it cost $1 less this turn, but not less than $0.

Shipwreck - just, 'Look through your discard pile and put a Treasure from it onto at the bottom of your deck.'

Stronghold - just mentioning that you could reveal it with the Reaction any number of times to trash more than once. It could stay, but maybe it's a bit too potent a trasher like this. If it is, it looks like the Reaction will more or less do the same thing just playing the Stronghold a la Caravan Guard.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #124 on: January 02, 2018, 11:51:22 pm »
0

Responses:

Discovery - I've rendered it a few times, normally it works out; if not, I can use a trick with Non-breaking spaces to make the $2 smaller, although that's not how Dominion Treasures usually look.
In the rules, I've specified how a player is supposed to "Shuffle In". You set aside the top card of the Supply pile, turn the remaining cards face down, and shuffle those in with the Boulder Trap or Discovery. Then you take the set aside card and put it on top. The end result is a face-down pile with one face-up card on top; for Castles, this means that you start with a Small Castle (or whatever was next when you used the Discovery) and then random remaining cards. Best solution? No. Agreeable? Depends on who's playing. But I think it's a better solution than "Castles are arbitrarily immune to Discoveries." For split piles, you only shuffle into one half of the split.

Artifact - Overall, I'm not worried too much about the implied Throning; however, I have been tossing around ways to reword this (maybe even using Necromancer-style flip mechanics) in order to avoid the unwanted results.

Avatar of Greed - Cards on the Avatar mat do not score points at end of game, something I will write on the card. It does mean you can treat it like a super-Island, except that if you don't get a Curse (which may run out) then you just screwed yourself out of the game.

Dig Site - Good eye. It does not need to be a Victory. I have contemplated adding a rule like "In games using this, the game ends if a player has 25 or more VP tokens." This would prevent unending games. That said, I have played games with Lurkers and Dig Sites, and they did not go on forever -- however, a player in those games was trying to win via Provinces instead of Dig Sites. I think if everyone went hardcore Dig Sites, this could become a real problem.

Stronghold - Ahh yes, the "you can actually reveal this unlimited times as a Reaction" thing. I forget that. I'm toying with making the bottom simply reflect the top (as a reaction, discard this to trash two cards from hand or discard pile.) Not entirely sure yet.
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