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Author Topic: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)  (Read 5363 times)

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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2017, 08:18:55 pm »
0

Quote
Riches (4)
Treasure
$4
When you buy a card using this, trash all the other treasures you used to buy that card.
I like the potential in this one. So you only buy one, and this ultimately becomes the only Treasure in the deck, and so it sets up engines. I think it needs virtual coin to work rather than make it OP, as other Treasures are almost worthless as one-shots (buy a gold for 6, it pays back only half of that). I have two questions with this: is 4 the right price for it? You can easily get a 5-8 cost card by turn 4, and trash some coppers at the same time. Which leads to, how do you declare what Treasures you use to pay for cards? Suppose I have a hand of Riches and 3 Coppers and want to buy a 4 cost card. Can I declare paying the three Coppers on it, perhaps by playing them first, or would the Riches always be the whole cost?
What do you mean 'declare'?
If you want to trash the coppers, then play them with the riches. If not, you can buy the cost card with only the Riches.
That said, the wording on this card needs to be improved. It should say "trash all the other treasures you have in play."

ConMan

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2017, 02:26:16 am »
0

The problem, I think, is that the wording of the card suggests that you're somehow keeping track of where the coins came from that you're using to buy a card, which has never been necessary before. For example, if I have 2 Buys, and I play Riches, a Silver and a Copper, can I buy a Duchy and an Estate and claim that I only "used" the Riches and the Copper to buy the Duchy, so only the Copper gets trashed?

I agree that a more manageable wording would be something like "When you buy a card with this in play, trash all non-Riches Treasures you have in play", but does that line up with the intended design?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2017, 09:42:57 am »
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The problem, I think, is that the wording of the card suggests that you're somehow keeping track of where the coins came from that you're using to buy a card, which has never been necessary before. For example, if I have 2 Buys, and I play Riches, a Silver and a Copper, can I buy a Duchy and an Estate and claim that I only "used" the Riches and the Copper to buy the Duchy, so only the Copper gets trashed?

I agree that a more manageable wording would be something like "When you buy a card with this in play, trash all non-Riches Treasures you have in play", but does that line up with the intended design?
One noteworthy difference to me seems to be that two Riches with the original wording seem capable of trashing each other. That's easily remedied, though.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2017, 09:59:30 am »
0

The problem, I think, is that the wording of the card suggests that you're somehow keeping track of where the coins came from that you're using to buy a card, which has never been necessary before. For example, if I have 2 Buys, and I play Riches, a Silver and a Copper, can I buy a Duchy and an Estate and claim that I only "used" the Riches and the Copper to buy the Duchy, so only the Copper gets trashed?

I agree that a more manageable wording would be something like "When you buy a card with this in play, trash all non-Riches Treasures you have in play", but does that line up with the intended design?
One noteworthy difference to me seems to be that two Riches with the original wording seem capable of trashing each other. That's easily remedied, though.

The main reason for that odd wording was to ensure that buying multiple cards wouldn't kill your Treasures immediately; that said it's probably better to just say "If this is in play, when you clean this up, trash all other Treasures you have in play." (of course in better language)

Edit: "At the end of your buy phase, if you bought a card while this was in play, trash all the other treasures you have in play."?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 10:02:57 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2017, 03:01:11 pm »
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A few observations:

Quote
Petroglyph (4)   
Action - Reaction   
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, discard it at the start of your next turn and draw a Card.
The way the wording on the reaction part reads, when you discard it from setting it aside, it can still be seen as discarding other than during cleanup and you could choose to set it aside again. This can be a nifty choice you can make, if you draw a good hand and don't need the extra card. You could even stock them up and draw several cards at once for a mega turn. It's a nice feature, I just wonder if it was intended.
Not intended, but I might just keep it....

Quote
Quote
Obelisk (5)
Action - Reaction - Attack
+2 Cards
You may trash two differently named cards from your hand. If you do, +[VP per $2 one of them costs.
-
When you discard this card any time other than during Clean-up, you can reveal it. If you do, each other player gains a Curse.
Agree with the comments made on the reaction part. The top part alone looks strong compared to Bishop, with the card draw as well, but the trashing two different cards may be enough of a setback. Either way, you'll need to say '(round down)' for odd-number costs.
"1 VP per $2" already implies round down.
I've changed the reaction to "When you discard this on another player's turn...."

Quote
Quote
Inspector (3)
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Reveal then discard 2 cards.
Per card discarded, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand dicards a copy of it (or reveals a hand with no copies.)
I assume you reveal from your hand?
Yes.

Quote
Quote
Collector (4)
Action
+$2
Reveal and trash the top card of your deck to gain a card that shares a type with it that costs up to $3 more.
Mine deals exclusively with Treasures and costs 5. Rebuild does Victories and is 5, and Expand is 7. I doubt the randomness and same-type restriction reduces the cost that much, especially as it doesn't interfere with your hand.
I'm thinking I'll drop the +$2 from it for now, and test it at that level. Otherwise I'll test it at $6.

Quote
Quote
Ziggurat (4)
Action
You may discard cards from the top of your deck until there are 3 cards in your discard pile.
You may trash up to two cards from your discard pile.
If you trashed a card, you may play a card from your discard pile.
Can it play a Treasure? Could you bring an Estate or another pure Victory into play to Bonfire it?
Yes.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2017, 05:42:57 pm »
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If you keep Petroglyph as is, it becomes a Hireling.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2017, 06:10:10 pm »
0

If you keep Petroglyph as is, it becomes a Hireling.
Right. Therefore I need to change the reaction to make it more explicit.

Quote
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, during your next Clean-up phase, discard it and draw a card.
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majiponi

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2017, 04:58:00 am »
0

If you keep Petroglyph as is, it becomes a Hireling.
Right. Therefore I need to change the reaction to make it more explicit.

Quote
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, during your next Clean-up phase, discard it and draw a card.
How about saying "when discarded from hand other than during Clean-up"?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2017, 06:25:08 am »
0

If you keep Petroglyph as is, it becomes a Hireling.
Right. Therefore I need to change the reaction to make it more explicit.

Quote
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, during your next Clean-up phase, discard it and draw a card.
How about saying "when discarded from hand other than during Clean-up"?
Then it can't be triggered by e.g. Cartographer. Not sure that's a bad thing, though.

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2017, 08:30:55 am »
0

Quote
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this card during an Action phase, you can reveal it and set it aside.
If you do, during your next Clean-up phase, discard it and draw a card.
Firstly I'm guessing you want Petroglyph to increase the handsize of a later turn's hand, as you could easily say 'when you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it for +1 card' so it replaces itself this turn.
If you do, it seems a bit strange to 'draw a card' during Clean-up, because you draw 5 for your next hand anyway. I would find better sense with
Quote
...Clean-up, you may set it aside. If you do, discard it during your next Clean-up to draw an extra card for your​ next turn's hand.
Or if you want to do what it did before without it becoming Hireling, maybe:
Quote
When you would discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal and set it aside instead. If you do, discard it at the start of your next turn for +1 card.

So you buy several Petroglyphs​ as they both cycle and can make themselves delayed Labs if they clash. 4 is a good price for this, or maybe 3 could work?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 04:57:54 pm by Aquila »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2017, 01:21:05 pm »
0

Guys, just thought I'd pop up to say a big thank you! I played my first ever set of 100% Antiquity cards this weekend (all prior tests have been mixtures of Donald X cards and Antiquity.) Somewhat to my surprise, the games were fun and flowed well, although the higher average cost of Antiquity cards meant that the games took longer than I'd like, so that's being revisited.

Thanks for all your ongoing support -- the set has gone from weak to fun in a very short time.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2017, 02:40:05 pm »
+1

Quote
When you would discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal and set it aside instead. If you do, discard it at the start of your next turn for +1 card.

I was so sure I already replied to this... Ah well. This wording doesn't change the fact the card ultimately will attempt to be discarded and get set aside again each turn. It's still a Hireling.

Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2017, 05:07:13 pm »
+1

Yes, you're right. Anyhow, it would still behave more like a duration or reserve than a Tunnel reaction, so Neirai's way is cleaner.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2017, 09:28:34 am »
0

I'm necromanticizing this thread from two reasons: one, the production side of this set is starting! I've received the first set of sketches from my artist; when the paintings are done, I'll post a few samples. It's happening!

I'm also fighting with the following two cards:

Shipwreck was intended to speed the game up and provide a low-cost Buy option. However Buys on low-cost cards can be OP. Here's three variants, I'd love to hear your views.
Quote
Shipwreck
2-cost Action: +1 Buy. Each player gains a Silver and puts it into their hand.

2-cost Action: +1 Buy. When you buy this, trash an Action card from your hand. If you do, +1 Buy, +$1 for each $ it costs.

2-cost Action: +1 Buy. You may trash this. If you do, reveal your hand and gain +$1 for each Treasure revealed this way.

Anthropologist is a different, but fun, card. It's a bit odd for balance. It also has a lot of text, I think too much to be practical on a card.
Quote
Anthropologist
Choose one: +1 Card, +1 Action, and take an Action card from the supply costing $3 more than the number of cards on your Research mat and place it on your Research mat; or
Play a card from your Research mat. Return it to the Research mat when this leaves play.
-
Setup: Add an Action pile costing $3 and an Action pile costing $4 to the Supply.
I may actually cut it in favor of another card archtype.
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Q

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2017, 01:08:44 pm »
0

About Shipwreck, the first version is not that interesting. You'd rather have a Woodcutter than gift Silvers, even with hand-size attacks. So this is probably only bought when you desperately need something with an extra Buy
Action trashing is fairly narrow.
About the last version, the one-shot Bank is pretty good and potentially too good for 2. Then again you have to use the extra Buy and 2 to "refill".

I don't understand Anthropologist unless you mean "costing up to $3 more"
Otherwise this would only offer the option to choose among a 3, 4 and 5 (and sometimes a 6 or 7) and not the option to choose among several 4s or 5s.
I like the idea of a Band of Misfits like build-up card but this might be a card that switches quickly from very bad too very good (the only reasonable prices are 3 and 4).

More on the irrelevant side, if this were implemented digitally you would have to prevent taking Anthropologists via Anthropologist lest you get infinite loops.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2017, 01:55:31 pm »
0

I don't understand Anthropologist unless you mean "costing up to $3 more"
Otherwise this would only offer the option to choose among a 3, 4 and 5 (and sometimes a 6 or 7) and not the option to choose among several 4s or 5s.
I like the idea of a Band of Misfits like build-up card but this might be a card that switches quickly from very bad too very good (the only reasonable prices are 3 and 4).

More on the irrelevant side, if this were implemented digitally you would have to prevent taking Anthropologists via Anthropologist lest you get infinite loops.

It literally only offers the option to choose among, 3, 4, and 5 and sometimes a 6 or 7 or 8-if-one-exists and only offers the option of choosing multiples if you have bridge-types in play. So you have a good idea of what it offers.
The biggest issue is that the ramp-up play is awkward. I'd love a better method of choosing the cards that it allows you to play, but I do want to preserve the 'bridges make this nuts' factor.
That said, I'm not sure that bridges make this nuts at all. It gives it more flexibility.
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Q

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2017, 04:15:13 pm »
0

My hunch is that this is too good for 3 and too weak for 4 (unless there is a 5 of which you want more than two copies) as the build-up would take too long.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2017, 04:40:50 pm »
0

A few things about playing and then returning cards to the research mat:
How do you intend it to work with durations and reserves? After your turn, and Anthropologist leaves play to go into the discard pile, a duration cannot really leave play; Hireling becomes pointless, and where will cards with a Haven, Gear or Archive go? Reserves themselves leave play, would they move from the tavern to the research mat?

I would suggest 'treat this as a card on your research mat' instead, but I notice you can actually get a selection of cards of the same price, if you have two Anthropologists in a turn, the first takes a card off the research mat to play it so the second can get a card the same cost as the one just played. Unless you keep the ramp-up idea set so you only have one card per price tier, I guess you're adding a lot more words to qualify all cards correctly, something like 'when it would be discarded at Clean-up, return it to the research mat.'
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werothegreat

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2017, 05:07:54 pm »
0

A couple tips:
-post Imgur links to pictures, not links to a card generator
-On Ancient Waterways, the "when you" text should be below the line
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2017, 10:20:03 am »
0

I would suggest 'treat this as a card on your research mat' instead, but I notice you can actually get a selection of cards of the same price, if you have two Anthropologists in a turn, the first takes a card off the research mat to play it so the second can get a card the same cost as the one just played. Unless you keep the ramp-up idea set so you only have one card per price tier, I guess you're adding a lot more words to qualify all cards correctly, something like 'when it would be discarded at Clean-up, return it to the research mat.'

You've confirmed my suspicion that this card is a lot more headache than the payoff is worth. I'm considering options for revision. Will post when I have the ideas.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2017, 05:41:55 pm »
0

I'm thinking of spinning it as some sort of version of the Black Market, but which works off of copies of the cards from your kingdom instead of cards from outside the kingdom.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2017, 05:51:16 pm »
0

Here are two options I'm toying with (totally untested so far):

Quote
Anthropologist: Action, $3.
Choose and play up to three differently named non-Anthropologist Action cards from your hand.

Quote
Anthropologist: Action, $3.
+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of the Culture deck. Put one into play, and put the other two back on top of the Culture deck.
At the end of Clean-up, shuffle the Culture deck.
-
Setup: Create a Culture deck of randomizer cards containing each of the Action cards in the game, as well as one Curse card. These cards may only exist in the Culture deck and in play; if they leave play for any reason, they must be shuffled into the Culture deck.

Which one is better? How can I refine these to make them better?
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2017, 05:21:00 am »
0

Anthropologist: Action, $3.
Choose and play up to three differently named non-Anthropologist Action cards from your hand.
This isn't an interesting card. It's basically a simple Village with +1-3 actions, and those actions can't even be saved for later in the turn.

Anthropologist: Action, $3.
+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of the Culture deck. Put one into play, and put the other two back on top of the Culture deck.
At the end of Clean-up, shuffle the Culture deck.
-
Setup: Create a Culture deck of randomizer cards containing each of the Action cards in the game, as well as one Curse card. These cards may only exist in the Culture deck and in play; if they leave play for any reason, they must be shuffled into the Culture deck.
I would call this the more interesting card, but all in all I don't think this would ever be a strategic buy, rather one all about chance. You could reveal Curse Anthropologist and something like Scout, or you could reveal Council Room and get to play it non-terminal, a card that would be worth way more than $3. And if every other Action in the kingdom was strong, then rushing this would be automatic.

Finding a different but interesting card that plays other Actions in the kingdom I've found to be hard. But the thought of anthropology looking into the past made me think of this idea, replaying actions you played in the past:
Quote
Anthropologist, $4? cost
+1 card
+1 action
Choose one: at the start of Clean-up, you may choose an Action card that would be discarded and put it on your Research mat; or play a card from your Research mat.
Just replaying them later would be weak, so you add +1 card +1 action to them. Don't know if this would be balanced, but hope this helps.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2017, 06:31:04 pm »
0

Aquila, I actually really love that idea. I'd probably tweak it a bit like so:

Quote
Anthropologist - Action
+1 card
+1 action
Choose one: Choose a card in play and put it on your Research mat; or, play a card from your Research mat.

This would have the added benefit of letting you break some of the "at the end of play, do the following" kind of elements by moving the card out of play before Cleanup.
Additionally, this has fun fringe benefits when played with cards like the Villa.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 06:39:30 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2017, 09:51:42 am »
+1

Quote
Anthropologist - Action
+1 card
+1 action
Choose one: Choose a card in play and put it on your Research mat; or, play a card from your Research mat.

Puzzle: How many +1 Cards +1Actions can I get out of King's Courting this?  ;)
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