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[nastley3]

Looking for some strategy guidelines for comparing Victory Tokens to Victory Cards. Obviously the tokens are more valuable in most situations, since Victory cards often take space without providing other value. This depends on what stage you are in the game, because the penalty of having a Victory card in your deck depends on how many times you draw it into your hand. I think in most games I would rather have 3 Victory Tokens instead of a Province if its early on in the game. Thoughts? (Obviously late game you just care about maximizing VP)

In general I am finding that Landmarks are extremely important, and that maximizing VP Tokens with cards like Temple is crucial.

What are your rules of thumb for comparing Victory Tokens with Victory Cards?

Thanks

[werothegreat]

The speed at which I can accumulate .  Something like Monument is really just a supplement, and you should still be going for Provinces.  With Bishop (or maybe Temple), sometimes you can pull off a Golden Deck, but even then you're still probably buying Provinces.  But then you have Goons and Triumph, and if you get your engine going properly, there is zero need for Provinces.  It's all down to how many tokens you can get quickly enough, and also what strategy your opponent is pursuing.

[Chris is me]

it's hard to quantify. There isn't one rule of thumb, because there sometimes is a fixed amount of VP available and their sometimes isn't; sometimes you're denying opponents access to that VP and sometimes you aren't, all of these factors have to be considered.

[Awaclus]

You need to actually consider the consequences of getting a Victory card and the consequences of getting VP tokens (as well as the consequences of not doing so, respectively) in each situation. There is no easy way out, unfortunately.

[nastley3]

Here is what I am getting at:

Are you finding that you view landmarks as more important or less important than you did when Empires first came out? I can say for certain that I have found them to be more important than I originally thought. For example, a landmark like Labyrinth, which gives 2 VP if you gain a 2nd card in a turn, means that I will gladly use an extra buy to take an unwanted copper to get those 2 VP. The fact that I can trash the copper, keep the 2 VP, is very nice.

The other thing I am finding the more I play Empires, is that Temple is a really strong card. Its #20 on Qvist, and it would be one of the cards that I predict moves up on that list in the future. Do you have a number of tokens that gather on Temple before it is a must buy?

Thanks

[ackmondual]

I generally value 1 less card at a "1 less VP hit".  Here, I'll trash Provinces if it's early game via Bishop, as 5 VP tokens is close enough to the 6pts the Province was worth.  However, I only do this if I have nothing better to trash. I still go for Estates, Shelters, and Coppers first.  If there's a higher cost card that's no longer useful (like Young Witch, Sea Hag, or Potion I suppose), then may as well clear that up while converting it to VP.  If it's later in the game, I won't really do this, as the impact on my deck is getting to be negligible.

If Goons, I'll often buy a Copper if it means getting 2 VP per buy.  Of course, not all games have branch actions, and using TR or Kings Court doesn't multiply the VP tokens you get per buy.

I agree with the post on Monument... it's more so a supplemental, as I'm sure your opponents will be able to keep pace by buying the higher scoring cards (esp. if it's a P/C game... 10pts per Colony!), or integrating Monuments into their own strategy.

Another nice thing is sometimes the VP is guaranteed, whereas in order to buy the Victory card, that's luck of what I end up drawing.

================

And then Empires is a whole can of worms on its own.  I bring this up b/c I believe the better way to go about this is to address each card/Event/Landmark, covering a few interactions/synergies where appropriate.

Also brought up in another post, it can be worth buying a Copper if it gets you 2 VP.

Other cases... instead of buying a Province, buy a Gold for $8 so you can trigger 2 VP off Basilica.  The Gold is sort of like a souped up Harem (whereas that was 2 VP and produces 2 coins, this produces 3 coins and is "worth 2 VP").  Ditto with Arena... I'd rather not draw into dead cards.  Just discard it for 2 VP.  Battlefield has gotten me to buy Victory cards like Estates and Duchies earlier than not as the extra 2 VP per each of them does provide more bang for the buck.

For $7, a Wedding is nicer than a Duchy early on for sure.  Later, it can be nice to buy it if the Duchies are out and alternatives to getting pts aren't that great.