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Author Topic: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?  (Read 17389 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2017, 09:27:50 am »
0

Ironically enough, for the first time last night I experienced some hanging/non responsiveness in games.  Seemed like a network issue; if I refreshed the browser, it would automatically put me back in the game where I was before.  Not sure if the network problems were on my end or on the server's.
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Awaclus

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2017, 10:03:41 am »
0

Ironically enough, for the first time last night I experienced some hanging/non responsiveness in games.  Seemed like a network issue; if I refreshed the browser, it would automatically put me back in the game where I was before.  Not sure if the network problems were on my end or on the server's.

I've also had problems the last 2 days. Sometimes it's fixed by refreshing, but sometimes it keeps trying to reconnect, or it successfully reconnects but the game is still stuck. I even had one game where I requested undo (1 step), my opponent granted it, but the game got stuck for me, and when I refreshed the page, the game had reverted to a several turns earlier state, and when my opponent refreshed, it also did that for him.
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Polk5440

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2017, 10:29:37 am »
0

It's not about disagreeing, I'd say. Apparently, both MF and ShIT have (had) some issues running smoothly on various PCs. I never had a lot of issues with MF.

I guess I'm just unlucky or something.

I think that's about right. Almost all of the speed, networking, and reconnect problems of MF have been fixed for me. However, one of my friends has had a noticeably worse experience on SiT versus MF. That friend and I both were using Chrome on a Mac playing together and we couldn't figure out why things just weren't working for him. He didn't want to bother with the forum and asking for help. He's a busy guy and will try again in a month or two to see if they got the kinks worked out. No real loss to him.

Mobile devices are generally worse because of the lack of an app.

Additionally, the UIX is still arguably worse on SiT. That is currently my opinion, but it depends on who you ask.
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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2017, 11:47:18 am »
+26

I would rate online Dominion implementations like that:

1. Goko
Unquestionable leader within board games world: lobby of the greatest convenience, built-in dress-your-own-knight simulator, introduction of The Dance.
2. Making Fun
The dance goes on: chrystal ball, animations, extremely practical way of overpaying and spending coin tokens, laptop warms you up in the winter.
Not a lot of people know about it, but there was a hidden easter egg implemented: if you slided your opponent's stats bar 100 times during their turn you received a coin token.
3. Isotropic
Pretty crappy one: slow, childish UI, no animations whatsoever. The only good thing in this one was art: way better than original cards.
4. Shuffle iT
AN ABOMINATION. Everything is wrong about this one.
Now everyone can join my games and laugh at me when I lose, they can also replay my old games and laugh again.
I can't win vs good players now because if they misclick they ask me to undo it, like what the hell..
With that many expansions released it's goddamn impossible to see your favorite cards often. Speaking of which, no Stash!
Also, Russian version. Now who the hell gonna need that, jeez..

ThetaSigma12

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2017, 01:12:16 pm »
0

I'm seriously having trouble guessing whether that was sarcastic.
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Cuzz

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2017, 06:57:11 pm »
+4

I'm seriously having trouble guessing whether that was sarcastic.

you are?
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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2017, 07:36:40 pm »
+5

I'm seriously having trouble guessing whether that was sarcastic.

And I'm wondering if this is sarcasm.
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Donald X.

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2017, 08:12:52 pm »
+12

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Titandrake

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2017, 01:19:49 am »
+5

It's okay. The initial announcement sounded ridiculously ambitious for 2 people, and I never expected them to hit all those buttons. I was expecting a more complete product.

There are definite UI issues in the new player experience. If you fiddle with the settings, you can get the UI into a state you like, but the defaults don't feel very good. (This may have changed recently.)

Many of the features feel targeted towards experienced players, not new players. It's unclear where new player concerns are in the priority list. Even if they are high on the priority list, the perception is that they aren't.
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ackmondual

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2017, 10:27:24 pm »
0

Many of the features feel targeted towards experienced players, not new players. It's unclear where new player concerns are in the priority list. Even if they are high on the priority list, the perception is that they aren't.

Ironic considering that was one reason to get away from Isotropic.
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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2017, 12:13:06 am »
+3

Many of the features feel targeted towards experienced players, not new players. It's unclear where new player concerns are in the priority list. Even if they are high on the priority list, the perception is that they aren't.

Ironic considering that was one reason to get away from Isotropic.

The reason to get away from Isotropic was that someone wanted to make an official version.  It had nothing to do with Isotropic.
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cactus

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2017, 01:31:15 am »
+1

I'm still not finding much chance to play but there is one thing I've noticed where SiT is a big improvement over MF: battery drain. I guess this is similar to the overheating issue but I was blown away by how quickly MF Dominion would drain the battery of my laptop or iPad when I played. And the crazy thing was this after they had supposedly rebuilt the back end.

LastFootnote

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2017, 12:02:24 pm »
+1

I'm still not finding much chance to play but there is one thing I've noticed where SiT is a big improvement over MF: battery drain. I guess this is similar to the overheating issue but I was blown away by how quickly MF Dominion would drain the battery of my laptop or iPad when I played. And the crazy thing was this after they had supposedly rebuilt the back end.

Well the back end would have next to nothing to do with how fast it drained your battery. It's all about the client.
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cactus

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2017, 04:38:41 pm »
+3

I'm still not finding much chance to play but there is one thing I've noticed where SiT is a big improvement over MF: battery drain. I guess this is similar to the overheating issue but I was blown away by how quickly MF Dominion would drain the battery of my laptop or iPad when I played. And the crazy thing was this after they had supposedly rebuilt the back end.

Well the back end would have next to nothing to do with how fast it drained your battery. It's all about the client.
Oh. OK. I guess the what I was trying to say was they spent a year apparently redesigning it without fixing the main things that were wrong with it.

Sometimes I feel like the only nurse in the middle of a forum full of computer programmers.

JKRich

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2017, 11:04:34 pm »
0

Many of the features feel targeted towards experienced players, not new players. It's unclear where new player concerns are in the priority list. Even if they are high on the priority list, the perception is that they aren't.
Clearly "familiar cards" is at least an attempt to help new players. I think a good analogy to the situation is this: Michael Jordan is considered the greatest ever to play basketball, but as an owner/GM he's been absolutely terrible at building a good team. I've read several "Stef and Philip are great players who really love Dominion... so they'll definitely make a great product" posts -- this is not necessarily true. I'm not saying that they don't want to help new players. Whether they will adequately address the needs of newer players is still to be determined.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 01:21:04 am by JKRich »
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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2017, 11:42:48 pm »
+2

The "Pretend to Think" thing was short for "Pretend to think about whether to reveal the card or not". It certainly wasn't intended as condescending, and I actually struggle to see why you'd see it as condescending in the first place.

The text went from "Done Pretending" to "Pretend to Think" to "Don't Reveal", if I remember correctly.
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ackmondual

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2017, 12:21:04 am »
0

Many of the features feel targeted towards experienced players, not new players. It's unclear where new player concerns are in the priority list. Even if they are high on the priority list, the perception is that they aren't.

Ironic considering that was one reason to get away from Isotropic.

The reason to get away from Isotropic was that someone wanted to make an official version.  It had nothing to do with Isotropic.
Is there a citation for this?
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Donald X.

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2017, 01:48:32 am »
+4

Many of the features feel targeted towards experienced players, not new players. It's unclear where new player concerns are in the priority list. Even if they are high on the priority list, the perception is that they aren't.

Ironic considering that was one reason to get away from Isotropic.

The reason to get away from Isotropic was that someone wanted to make an official version.  It had nothing to do with Isotropic.
Is there a citation for this?
isotropic was a fan-made version. Like other fan-made versions, we gave permission for it to be up until we had an official version, and no longer.

We asked Doug Z. if he wanted the job of making the official version; he didn't.

isotropic itself was never in the running to be the official version; it did not have the necessary pretty/friendly interface. Yes ShuffleiT currently does not have that interface either.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 02:48:48 pm by Donald X. »
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Jacob marley

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2017, 12:26:02 pm »
+1

However, the ShuffleIt interface at least looks like you are playing a card game.  Isotropic didn't.  Really, I don't have much trouble with playing on ShuffleIt, and most of the trouble I have stems from needing to click in the log area.  There is improvement to be done, but I find the implementation playable.

Another issue, however, is that Dominion is by nature a complex game that can be intimidating for newcomers.  If you sit someone who has never played before with a game including durations, victory tokens, the tavern mat and Adventures tokens (+1 action, etc.) I'm willing to bet that their reaction would be that the game to unfriendly to beginners too.

It comes back to the fact that, yes, there are improvements needed, but at least part of the battle is for each player to learn the interface and the cards.
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RevanFan

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2017, 01:22:54 pm »
0

Another issue, however, is that Dominion is by nature a complex game that can be intimidating for newcomers.  If you sit someone who has never played before with a game including durations, victory tokens, the tavern mat and Adventures tokens (+1 action, etc.) I'm willing to bet that their reaction would be that the game to unfriendly to beginners too.
Believe it or not, I did that just the other day. I didn't realize that two of the players in the game had never played before. I did a full randomization on my app. The game was actually pretty horrible. It lasted an hour and a half and the winner only had 8 points. But... the new players said they'd be open to playing again knowing that the game will likely never be that awful again. They're experienced gamers, so they understood the mechanics well enough on first look.
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ackmondual

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2017, 10:27:24 am »
0

Many of the features feel targeted towards experienced players, not new players. It's unclear where new player concerns are in the priority list. Even if they are high on the priority list, the perception is that they aren't.

Ironic considering that was one reason to get away from Isotropic.

The reason to get away from Isotropic was that someone wanted to make an official version.  It had nothing to do with Isotropic.
Is there a citation for this?
isotropic was a fan-made version. Like other fan-made versions, we gave permission for it to be up until we had an official version, and no longer.

We asked Doug Z. if we wanted the job of making the official version; he didn't.

isotropic itself was never in the running to be the official version; it did not have the necessary pretty/friendly interface. Yes ShuffleiT currently does not have that interface either.
Thanks for the reply!  I couldn't remember if it was someone from the Dom. team who made a comment about the interface, or just 'some other user'

However, the ShuffleIt interface at least looks like you are playing a card game.  Isotropic didn't.  Really, I don't have much trouble with playing on ShuffleIt, and most of the trouble I have stems from needing to click in the log area.  There is improvement to be done, but I find the implementation playable.

Another issue, however, is that Dominion is by nature a complex game that can be intimidating for newcomers.  If you sit someone who has never played before with a game including durations, victory tokens, the tavern mat and Adventures tokens (+1 action, etc.) I'm willing to bet that their reaction would be that the game to unfriendly to beginners too.

It comes back to the fact that, yes, there are improvements needed, but at least part of the battle is for each player to learn the interface and the cards.
It's all a tradeoff... not having actual cards does make the game run more smoothly, has a smaller footprint not having to store the card art, and allows you to fit more cards on the screen at once.  Probably like a command line interface vs. GUI deal... the former can be more suitable to users, but only if they reach that level of knowledge and proficiency.
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GendoIkari

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2017, 10:57:09 am »
+28

Probably like a command line interface vs. GUI deal... the former can be more suitable to users, but only if they reach that level of knowledge and proficiency.

Personally I'm a fan of the fully text-based version of Dominion:


You are sitting at a table. In front of you are piles of cards, consisting of Village, Smithy, Militia, Moat, Festival, Witch, Cellar, Laboratory, Bureaucrat, Gardens, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, and Curse.

> Look at hand
Your hand consists of Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate, Estate.

> Play Copper
You place a Copper on the table. You have $1 to spend.

> Play Copper
You place a Copper on the table. You have $2 to spend.

> Play Copper
You place a Copper on the table. You have $3 to spend.

> Buy Silver
You buy and gain a Silver. You have $0 to spend.

> End Turn
You discard your hand and cards in play. You draw 5 new cards. It is your opponent's turn.

...
...
...
...

Your opponent has played 5 Coppers and purchased a Witch. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.


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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2017, 11:44:48 am »
+2

Probably like a command line interface vs. GUI deal... the former can be more suitable to users, but only if they reach that level of knowledge and proficiency.

Personally I'm a fan of the fully text-based version of Dominion:


You are sitting at a table. In front of you are piles of cards, consisting of Village, Smithy, Militia, Moat, Festival, Witch, Cellar, Laboratory, Bureaucrat, Gardens, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, and Curse.

> Look at hand
Your hand consists of Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate, Estate.

> Play Copper
You place a Copper on the table. You have $1 to spend.

> Play Copper
You place a Copper on the table. You have $2 to spend.

> Play Copper
You place a Copper on the table. You have $3 to spend.

> Buy Silver
You buy and gain a Silver. You have $0 to spend.

> End Turn
You discard your hand and cards in play. You draw 5 new cards. It is your opponent's turn.

...
...
...
...

Your opponent has played 5 Coppers and purchased a Witch. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.






> xyzzy
You gain a Scout.
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ackmondual

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2017, 01:14:01 am »
0

Probably like a command line interface vs. GUI deal... the former can be more suitable to users, but only if they reach that level of knowledge and proficiency.

Personally I'm a fan of the fully text-based version of Dominion:


You are sitting at a table. In front of you are piles of cards, consisting of Village, Smithy, Militia, Moat, Festival, Witch, Cellar, Laboratory, Bureaucrat, Gardens, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, and Curse.

> Look at hand
Your hand consists of Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate, Estate.

> Play Copper
You place a Copper on the table. You have $1 to spend.

> Play Copper
You place a Copper on the table. You have $2 to spend.

> Play Copper
You place a Copper on the table. You have $3 to spend.

> Buy Silver
You buy and gain a Silver. You have $0 to spend.

> End Turn
You discard your hand and cards in play. You draw 5 new cards. It is your opponent's turn.

...
...
...
...

Your opponent has played 5 Coppers and purchased a Witch. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.




I prefer this version too.  When I play IRL Dominion, we mostly just ask what the player did on his turn to summarize.  I make quite good use of the game log with Androminion and Race For The Galaxy.  Unfortunately, it seems folks who are new to card games prefer GUIs and nearly all graphics :(  Dominion on BSW.com didn't have logs, which I wasn't a fan of.
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JKRich

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Re: How do we like the new version of Dominions n online?
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2017, 02:18:27 am »
+1

Many of the features feel targeted towards experienced players, not new players. It's unclear where new player concerns are in the priority list. Even if they are high on the priority list, the perception is that they aren't.
Clearly "familiar cards" is at least an attempt to help new players.... I won't say that they don't want to help new players (hey, they told us to "pretend to think" when we can't reveal a card to block the +1 from Gladiator -- no, that's not condescending at all ::)).
The "Pretend to Think" thing was short for "Pretend to think about whether to reveal the card or not". It certainly wasn't intended as condescending, and I actually struggle to see why you'd see it as condescending in the first place.

The text went from "Done Pretending" to "Pretend to Think" to "Don't Reveal", if I remember correctly.
I certainly wouldn't think they intended to be condescending. Why I find it off-putting is this: the click-box says "DON'T REVEAL" whether one has the card to block the extra +$1 from Gladiator or not. If one has the card to block, the info box (under Actions/Buys/Coins) says "YOU MAY REVEAL A(N)...". If one doesn't have the card to block it says "PRETEND TO THINK". This is given as an imperative, not a suggestion, the grammar implying "you must/should pretend to think" (as opposed to "YOU MAY PRETEND TO THINK", which would've been a much better wording, consistent with the wording they use just about everywhere else IIRC). Now since there's no actual card play decision to make here -- one does not have the card to block and clicking on DON'T REVEAL is the only choice -- it begs the question "Why do I have to pretend to think?".  If I'm playing a bot, again as a newer player who can't read the developers' minds, it begs questions like "Will the bot play differently if I don't? How long should I think anyways?". After finally figuring out what they are really telling you is certain situations might arise in a game against human players where you might want to pretend to be deciding whether to not reveal a card you have and give them the extra $1 to put doubt in their mind whether you actually have that card in hand but are just choosing not to reveal it for strategic reasons, but in this specific situation that might not be the case at all and there's no reason to waste time pretending to think, and if you're playing a bot/bots there's never any reason to waste time pretending to think even though it specifically says "PRETEND TO THINK", well do I really need to say anymore about why I think that's upsetting?  And if one was to say they assumed you'd figure out the context of their learned wise imperative suggestion, can't that logically appear to be condescending?
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