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Author Topic: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.  (Read 262456 times)

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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #475 on: April 24, 2018, 07:05:47 pm »
0

No one mentioned Jester as a means of "cloning" potion-cost cards?


That actually is a really good way, because jester is the most powerful gainer in the game.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #476 on: April 24, 2018, 09:07:21 pm »
+6

No one mentioned Jester as a means of "cloning" potion-cost cards?


That actually is a really good way, because jester is the most powerful gainer in the game.

Not even close....
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #477 on: April 24, 2018, 09:25:02 pm »
0

That actually is a really good way, because jester is the most powerful gainer in the game.

Changeling can gain Potion cards too, along with Victory/Action and Victory/Treasure cards. It's also cheaper and way better at copying the card you want.
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #478 on: April 24, 2018, 10:52:41 pm »
0

That actually is a really good way, because jester is the most powerful gainer in the game.

Changeling can gain Potion cards too, along with Victory/Action and Victory/Treasure cards. It's also cheaper and way better at copying the card you want.


But with jester you can gain powerful cards that you don't have in your deck, unlike changeling, also it is not a one shot. It's also not like workshop where there's a cost limit. Also it can gain multiple cards in three player games, and it makes them discard their good card. Therefore it is the most powerful gainer in the game by far.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #479 on: April 24, 2018, 11:18:43 pm »
+2

That actually is a really good way, because jester is the most powerful gainer in the game.

Changeling can gain Potion cards too, along with Victory/Action and Victory/Treasure cards. It's also cheaper and way better at copying the card you want.


But with jester you can gain powerful cards that you don't have in your deck, unlike changeling, also it is not a one shot. It's also not like workshop where there's a cost limit. Also it can gain multiple cards in three player games, and it makes them discard their good card. Therefore it is the most powerful gainer in the game by far.

You should read through the card ranking lists; and consider that there's a lot of players on this forum who are really top-tier players. Meaning; that they know a lot more about what cards are more powerful than others than you (or I) do. Opinions and personal preferences are all well and good, but a statement like "it is the most powerful gainer in the game by far" simply comes off as arrogant in the face of better players saying otherwise.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #480 on: April 25, 2018, 02:58:16 am »
+1

Calling a card that either gains or junks the most powerful gainer is quite dubious and the most powerful gainers (respectively trasher/gainers) are probably the two card that gains 5s and cost $6. Plus perhaps Magic Lamp but that's mainly due to the tempo advantage (Altar and Artisan gain on average more than 3 cards per game).
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #481 on: April 25, 2018, 04:49:32 am »
+10

You should read through the card ranking lists; and consider that there's a lot of players on this forum who are really top-tier players. Meaning; that they know a lot more about what cards are more powerful than others than you (or I) do. Opinions and personal preferences are all well and good, but a statement like "it is the most powerful gainer in the game by far" simply comes off as arrogant in the face of better players saying otherwise.

I disagree for two reasons:

1) Qvist's rankings aren't always super accurate, partially due to a lack of consensus on what it means for a card to be "powerful", partially due to psychological reasons why people rate cards inaccurately even when they know how strong they are in practice (e.g. cards that are very similar should be very close in strength, but it's very easy to compare those cards against each other so that makes people focus on the minor differences more than they should), partially due to players not knowing how to utilize cards to their full extents even at the top level sometimes, and partially due to the algorithm being imperfect when it comes to dealing with low-rank players having incredibly stupid opinions, such as giving all Attack cards the lowest possible rating. They're more for fun than anything else.

2) Dominion skill isn't one-dimensional. Someone who sucks at deck tracking will have a very hard time getting to level 60+, for example, but that same person can easily know why everyone else is playing Jester wrong, and their insight on that subject is worth listening even though they suck at deck tracking. Case in point: when silverspawn first joined the forum, he was largely ridiculed for stating that Lookout was underrated, but as it turns out, he was mostly correct according to current consensus.

Now, I don't think that Chase is correct here, but there are real reasons why he's wrong and none of them are "Qvist's rankings disagree with you" or "top players disagree with you".
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samath

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #482 on: April 25, 2018, 08:30:18 am »
+1

Jester has incredible upside in some fairly specific circumstances: If a game is 4-player (or to a lesser extent 3-player), players tend to have trashed down their decks so you more often hit good (engine) cards, and the piles for those good cards are not exhausted yet, then you can gain 2-3 amazing engine cards on top of a terminal silver. I think it's fair to call that the highest upside of any gainer.

The problem is that those circumstances are rare. The most common difficulty I find is that especially in 4-player games and especially with Jester in the game, the piles tend to run out super fast, especially of the good cards that you'd like to gain. So while a single Jester play early might net you a couple good engine cards, pretty soon they'll start flipping over the cards whose piles are empty, giving you no benefit.
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #483 on: April 25, 2018, 09:54:30 am »
0

Calling a card that either gains or junks the most powerful gainer is quite dubious and the most powerful gainers (respectively trasher/gainers) are probably the two card that gains 5s and cost $6. Plus perhaps Magic Lamp but that's mainly due to the tempo advantage (Altar and Artisan gain on average more than 3 cards per game).


From my experience jester gains more cards than altar or artisan.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #484 on: April 25, 2018, 10:16:18 am »
+1

Calling a card that either gains or junks the most powerful gainer is quite dubious and the most powerful gainers (respectively trasher/gainers) are probably the two card that gains 5s and cost $6. Plus perhaps Magic Lamp but that's mainly due to the tempo advantage (Altar and Artisan gain on average more than 3 cards per game).


From my experience jester gains more cards than altar or artisan.

This makes no sense. Altar and Artisan both gain exactly 1 card per play. In a 2 player game, Jester gains maybe 1 card for every 2 or 3 plays. It's literally impossible for Jester to gain more cards-per-play than Artisan/Altar in a 2 player game.

In a 3 or 4 player game, it is theoretically possible for Jester to gain more than 1 card per play, but even that sounds very unlikely... several of the cards revealed by Jester throughout the game will be Victory or Copper or Curse. You have to hit several good actions before the radio will tilt in your favor. Even then, keep in mind that most players here play mostly 2 player Dominion; and 2 player Dominion is as a whole a more strategic and less luck-based game than 3-4 player.

On top of all that, Artisan and Altar (as well as just about every other gainer) allow you to gain a specific card that you want. Jester can only gain you whatever random card your opponent happened to reveal; you have no say in it.
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Dylan32

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #485 on: April 25, 2018, 11:47:13 am »
0

Calling a card that either gains or junks the most powerful gainer is quite dubious and the most powerful gainers (respectively trasher/gainers) are probably the two card that gains 5s and cost $6. Plus perhaps Magic Lamp but that's mainly due to the tempo advantage (Altar and Artisan gain on average more than 3 cards per game).


From my experience jester gains more cards than altar or artisan.

This makes no sense. Altar and Artisan both gain exactly 1 card per play. In a 2 player game, Jester gains maybe 1 card for every 2 or 3 plays. It's literally impossible for Jester to gain more cards-per-play than Artisan/Altar in a 2 player game.

In a 3 or 4 player game, it is theoretically possible for Jester to gain more than 1 card per play, but even that sounds very unlikely... several of the cards revealed by Jester throughout the game will be Victory or Copper or Curse. You have to hit several good actions before the radio will tilt in your favor. Even then, keep in mind that most players here play mostly 2 player Dominion; and 2 player Dominion is as a whole a more strategic and less luck-based game than 3-4 player.

On top of all that, Artisan and Altar (as well as just about every other gainer) allow you to gain a specific card that you want. Jester can only gain you whatever random card your opponent happened to reveal; you have no say in it.

Jester costs 5, where Artisan and Altar cost 6, so it is possible that Chase frequently is able to get Jester earlier than he could get one of the other two, and that could make a difference in the number of cards each would be able to gain, or at least it could influence his perception of their average performance. I agree that Artisan and Altar should normally gain more, but I also don't think Chase is crazy for thinking it does based off the games he's played since I can see why it would seem like it does, or even sometimes does gain more due to shuffle luck.
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crj

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #486 on: April 25, 2018, 11:56:17 am »
0

Suppose:
  • It is a multiplayer game
  • There is really strong trashing
  • You are the worst player at the table
In the conjunction of those three circumstances, I can see Jester being useful, since it (a) gains you copies of cards the other players have managed to buy and you haven't, and (b) gains you copies of cards the other players knew it was a good idea to buy and you didn't.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #487 on: April 25, 2018, 12:31:43 pm »
0

(b) gains you copies of cards the other players knew it was a good idea to buy and you didn't.

This is still a downside. You're not super excited to gain the stuff your opponent is buying for his engine deck if you're playing BM.
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crj

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #488 on: April 25, 2018, 01:30:13 pm »
0

Wait... we're supposing someone who thinks BM is the winning strategy on a Donate kingdom, and then decides Jester will help their BM even though none of the other players have any treasures?

Surely in that scenario, the person buying Jester is at least trying to make an engine?
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #489 on: April 25, 2018, 01:36:41 pm »
+5

I think you guys are pretty heavily discounting just how much better Jester is in 3-4 player games. There's not really many cards that scale with players in the way Jester can.
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Awaclus

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #490 on: April 25, 2018, 02:08:52 pm »
0

I think you guys are pretty heavily discounting just how much better Jester is in 3-4 player games. There's not really many cards that scale with players in the way Jester can.

3-4-player games are super rare anyway.
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crj

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #491 on: April 25, 2018, 02:56:39 pm »
+1

I think you guys are pretty heavily discounting just how much better Jester is in 3-4 player games.
Suppose:
  • It is a multiplayer game

I'm really not! It does begin to make more sense as the player count rises, agreed, but I suspect the confirmation bias of remembering that one time you managed to get a King's Court and forgetting all the times you had to decide whether to take a silver or give a silver plays a bigger part in how good people think it is.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #492 on: April 25, 2018, 03:04:15 pm »
0

I think you guys are pretty heavily discounting just how much better Jester is in 3-4 player games.
Suppose:
  • It is a multiplayer game

I'm really not! It does begin to make more sense as the player count rises, agreed, but I suspect the confirmation bias of remembering that one time you managed to get a King's Court and forgetting all the times you had to decide whether to take a silver or give a silver plays a bigger part in how good people think it is.

There's plenty of games where everyone trashes down substantially and few silvers are bought. I assume this still holds true for 3-4P but I don't know for certain.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #493 on: April 25, 2018, 05:33:45 pm »
0

I think you guys are pretty heavily discounting just how much better Jester is in 3-4 player games. There's not really many cards that scale with players in the way Jester can.
All junkers increase in strength in multiplayer games. As Jester can also junk out of a practically unlimited junk pool, Copper, he is used more often for junking than for gaining in multiplayer games. Just imagine three player open 5/2 with Jester; this will be a massive, snowballing junk festival and you will rarely hit something good with Jester. Not to mention that engine feasibility is smaller in 3P games as building an engine with 3,3 villages is more difficult than building it with 5 villages so more folks will play money so the likelihood that Jester clones a good engine piece is smaller.

So no, I don't buy the notion that Jester is a great gainer. It is a decent card but as it doesn't give you any control over what you gain it is too much of a loose canon to be even remotely as good as a precise control card like Artisan.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #494 on: April 25, 2018, 05:38:56 pm »
0

I think you guys are pretty heavily discounting just how much better Jester is in 3-4 player games. There's not really many cards that scale with players in the way Jester can.
All junkers increase in strength in multiplayer games (forsaking a Witch in 2P implies that you deck will contain 10 Curses whereas forsaking a Witch in 3P implies that your deck will contain 20 Curses). As Jester can also junk out of a practically unlimited junk pool, Copper, he is used more often for junking than for gaining in multiplayer games. Just imagine three player open 5/2 with Jester; this will be a massive, snowballing junk festival and you will rarely hit something good with Jester.

So no, I don't buy the notion that Jester is a great gainer. It is a decent card but as it doesn't give you any control over what you gain it is too much of a loose canon to be even remotely as good as a precise control card like Artisan.

Forsaking a witch in 3P does not in the slightest imply your deck will contain 20 curses. In fact in three player games it's very difficult to get the entire curse pile to yourself. Each other player buying a witch and playing them 5 times each will give both opponents 5 curses and you 10 curses.

The on-gain component of jester, however, does double in efficacy entirely. You will on average gain twice as many cards.

You also for some reason assume
1) That everyone buys and plays Jester, which is an odd assumption given your claim that Jester is not particularly strong
2) That when they do so, they will primarily be junking opponents decks. Which is assuming that the jester is bought immediately and trashing is ignored. Again, an odd assumption to make when you're trying to claim that Jester is only a decent card.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #495 on: April 25, 2018, 05:46:07 pm »
0

But Jester is the most powerful attack, where power is measured by popularity.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #496 on: April 25, 2018, 05:59:16 pm »
0

I think you guys are pretty heavily discounting just how much better Jester is in 3-4 player games. There's not really many cards that scale with players in the way Jester can.
All junkers increase in strength in multiplayer games (forsaking a Witch in 2P implies that you deck will contain 10 Curses whereas forsaking a Witch in 3P implies that your deck will contain 20 Curses). As Jester can also junk out of a practically unlimited junk pool, Copper, he is used more often for junking than for gaining in multiplayer games. Just imagine three player open 5/2 with Jester; this will be a massive, snowballing junk festival and you will rarely hit something good with Jester.

So no, I don't buy the notion that Jester is a great gainer. It is a decent card but as it doesn't give you any control over what you gain it is too much of a loose canon to be even remotely as good as a precise control card like Artisan.

Forsaking a witch in 3P does not in the slightest imply your deck will contain 20 curses. In fact in three player games it's very difficult to get the entire curse pile to yourself. Each other player buying a witch and playing them 5 times each will give both opponents 5 curses and you 10 curses.

The on-gain component of jester, however, does double in efficacy entirely. You will on average gain twice as many cards.

You also for some reason assume
1) That everyone buys and plays Jester, which is an odd assumption given your claim that Jester is not particularly strong
2) That when they do so, they will primarily be junking opponents decks. Which is assuming that the jester is bought immediately and trashing is ignored. Again, an odd assumption to make when you're trying to claim that Jester is only a decent card.
Snowballing, dude.

In 2P game you are hit on average x times by Jester (where x is the average opponent Jester play ratio) which implies that you gain junk xy times (where y is the junk ratio in your deck). In a 3P game you are hit on average 2x times by Jester which implies that you gain junk 2xy times. So y is increasing over time (same Kingdom, relative to the 2P game) which implies that the how often you receive junk, 2xy, also increases over time.

Now of course this is only true as long as y>0.5. Once it is smaller Jester will be mostly used to gain good cards which implies that the junk ratio in decks becomes even smaller which implies that Jester will be more often used to gain good stuff and so on. Obviously I think that the former scenario happens more often.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #497 on: April 25, 2018, 06:20:39 pm »
+4

Banquet/Triumph

It was my opponent who found the interaction, unfortunately...
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #498 on: April 25, 2018, 06:30:07 pm »
0

Calling a card that either gains or junks the most powerful gainer is quite dubious and the most powerful gainers (respectively trasher/gainers) are probably the two card that gains 5s and cost $6. Plus perhaps Magic Lamp but that's mainly due to the tempo advantage (Altar and Artisan gain on average more than 3 cards per game).


From my experience jester gains more cards than altar or artisan.

This makes no sense. Altar and Artisan both gain exactly 1 card per play. In a 2 player game, Jester gains maybe 1 card for every 2 or 3 plays. It's literally impossible for Jester to gain more cards-per-play than Artisan/Altar in a 2 player game.

In a 3 or 4 player game, it is theoretically possible for Jester to gain more than 1 card per play, but even that sounds very unlikely... several of the cards revealed by Jester throughout the game will be Victory or Copper or Curse. You have to hit several good actions before the radio will tilt in your favor. Even then, keep in mind that most players here play mostly 2 player Dominion; and 2 player Dominion is as a whole a more strategic and less luck-based game than 3-4 player.

On top of all that, Artisan and Altar (as well as just about every other gainer) allow you to gain a specific card that you want. Jester can only gain you whatever random card your opponent happened to reveal; you have no say in it.


But with altar and artisan you can only gain cards costing up to five. I gain platinum, gold, bank, grand market, kings court, etc with jester frequently.
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #499 on: April 25, 2018, 06:31:11 pm »
0

Banquet/Triumph

It was my opponent who found the interaction, unfortunately...


But it only works if you have +buy.
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