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Author Topic: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.  (Read 262207 times)

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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #450 on: April 20, 2018, 12:25:09 am »
0

Shepherd + Tournament
Grab Followers, be happy about getting engine components instead of junk from it.

Okay but Shepherd/Tournament seems likely to lead to tough tactical decisions:

Hand is Shepherd, Estate, Province, Copper, Copper. Do you discard the Province or not?


I wouldn't. I want any opportunity to get a prize because they are that good. Also with follower it doesn't just get two cards from shepherd but it also helps pasture be worth more vp.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 12:27:10 am by Chase Adolphson »
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AJD

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #451 on: April 20, 2018, 10:14:28 pm »
+2

Lucky Coin–Changeling–Potion was a good combo.

Exchange Silvers for Changelings, then trade in the Changelings so you can gain more Alchemists than you have Potions to spend.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #452 on: April 21, 2018, 03:03:40 am »
+2

Lucky Coin–Changeling–Potion was a good combo.

Exchange Silvers for Changelings, then trade in the Changelings so you can gain more Alchemists than you have Potions to spend.
Edge case: Transmute is in the Kingdom instead of Alchemist.
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #453 on: April 21, 2018, 11:19:16 am »
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Lucky Coin–Changeling–Potion was a good combo.

Exchange Silvers for Changelings, then trade in the Changelings so you can gain more Alchemists than you have Potions to spend.
Edge case: Transmute is in the Kingdom instead of Alchemist.


It would be such a different interaction.
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Erick648

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #454 on: April 21, 2018, 03:16:33 pm »
0

Lucky Coin–Changeling–Potion was a good combo.

Exchange Silvers for Changelings, then trade in the Changelings so you can gain more Alchemists than you have Potions to spend.
Edge case: Transmute is in the Kingdom instead of Alchemist.


It would be such a different interaction.
So I guess you could generalize it to "[Silver gainer]-Changeling-[good Potion-cost card]" (since it would still be useful with something like Amulet-Changeling-Scrying Pool).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #455 on: April 21, 2018, 04:42:25 pm »
+4

Lucky Coin–Changeling–Potion was a good combo.

Exchange Silvers for Changelings, then trade in the Changelings so you can gain more Alchemists than you have Potions to spend.
Edge case: Transmute is in the Kingdom instead of Alchemist.


It would be such a different interaction.
So I guess you could generalize it to "[Silver gainer]-Changeling-[good Potion-cost card]" (since it would still be useful with something like Amulet-Changeling-Scrying Pool).

Really I think you could generalize it to [Silver gainer] + Changeling. The point is that it turns "Gain a Silver" into "eventually gain a copy of a card you have in play".

In your case, you have an extra interaction of Changeling + Hard-to-gain card. But there's nothing special about Potion here. It can also gain King's Courts or Grand Markets.
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ipofanes

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #456 on: April 24, 2018, 03:26:23 am »
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Wedding makes a Golden Deck with Bishops more effective and reliable. A hand of Bishop and three golds normally rakes in 4VP per turn. Wedding increases this to 5VP, which is huge, and makes it easier to set up due to the staggered payment.

A hand of Conclave, Bishop, Monument and two Golds would yield another VP.
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crj

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #457 on: April 24, 2018, 12:08:27 pm »
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But there's nothing special about Potion here. It can also gain King's Courts or Grand Markets.
In one respect, it's at least slightly special. If a card's cost is purely monetary, then Talisman or Duplicate can help you get a lot of copies of it, especially if cost reduction is available. But no amount of cost reduction will let you use Talisman/Duplicate on potion-cost or debt-cost cards: cloning those remains the exclusive preserve of Changeling.
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Gazbag

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #458 on: April 24, 2018, 12:29:47 pm »
+1

But there's nothing special about Potion here. It can also gain King's Courts or Grand Markets.
In one respect, it's at least slightly special. If a card's cost is purely monetary, then Talisman or Duplicate can help you get a lot of copies of it, especially if cost reduction is available. But no amount of cost reduction will let you use Talisman/Duplicate on potion-cost or debt-cost cards: cloning those remains the exclusive preserve of Changeling.

Disciple can also "clone" copies of potion/debt cost cards, lot's of things can gain them but I'm not sure what you're classifying cloning as meaning exactly.
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Chris is me

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #459 on: April 24, 2018, 01:12:47 pm »
0

But there's nothing special about Potion here. It can also gain King's Courts or Grand Markets.
In one respect, it's at least slightly special. If a card's cost is purely monetary, then Talisman or Duplicate can help you get a lot of copies of it, especially if cost reduction is available. But no amount of cost reduction will let you use Talisman/Duplicate on potion-cost or debt-cost cards: cloning those remains the exclusive preserve of Changeling.

Disciple can also "clone" copies of potion/debt cost cards, lot's of things can gain them but I'm not sure what you're classifying cloning as meaning exactly.

“Lots of things” is a stretch. It’s pretty much just Lurker, Disciple, and Changeling.
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Gazbag

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #460 on: April 24, 2018, 01:33:21 pm »
+1

But there's nothing special about Potion here. It can also gain King's Courts or Grand Markets.
In one respect, it's at least slightly special. If a card's cost is purely monetary, then Talisman or Duplicate can help you get a lot of copies of it, especially if cost reduction is available. But no amount of cost reduction will let you use Talisman/Duplicate on potion-cost or debt-cost cards: cloning those remains the exclusive preserve of Changeling.

Disciple can also "clone" copies of potion/debt cost cards, lot's of things can gain them but I'm not sure what you're classifying cloning as meaning exactly.

“Lots of things” is a stretch. It’s pretty much just Lurker, Disciple, and Changeling.

Stonemason, Pilgrimage, Squire can gain Pool/Familiar, Develop if you're playing a very Alchemy heavy game, if you're counting extra turns then Outpost and Possession sort of, most Remodel variants can technically gain them, opponent Ambassadoring Transmutes. That's lots of things to me, I mean none of these are even much of a stretch  :P.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #461 on: April 24, 2018, 01:36:36 pm »
+1

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O

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #462 on: April 24, 2018, 01:48:29 pm »
+3

ITT people post pedantic edge cases that aren't even remotely close to any reason interpretation of the word "cloning".

Cloning suggests gaining a second copy of a card in your possession or that you're just gaining. It doesn't mean just "gaining things"; that was crj's entire point to start with.

Outpost and Possession are fantastically awful examples of trying to edge case, too. At that point we're just saying "Council room can clone Scrying pool because you MIGHT draw a potion and a silver to use that +buy with!!"
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terminalCopper

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #463 on: April 24, 2018, 01:48:44 pm »
+4

I often gained Alchemists with Masquerade. Kind of.
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Gazbag

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #464 on: April 24, 2018, 02:09:14 pm »
0

ITT people post pedantic edge cases that aren't even remotely close to any reason interpretation of the word "cloning".

Cloning suggests gaining a second copy of a card in your possession or that you're just gaining. It doesn't mean just "gaining things"; that was crj's entire point to start with.

Outpost and Possession are fantastically awful examples of trying to edge case, too. At that point we're just saying "Council room can clone Scrying pool because you MIGHT draw a potion and a silver to use that +buy with!!"

Those were supposed to be examples of gaining things though, not "cloning". And if you think Stonemason with Potion cards is an edgecase I have some news for you! Outpost is also a great way to gain more Potion cards without adding an extra Potion to your deck too, Council Room is nothing like that? I mean comparing an opponent's Council Room to a free Alchemist might be accurate I suppose?

I thought the  :P at the end would be a hint that it was a maybe a bit of a tongue-in-cheek post?
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Awaclus

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #465 on: April 24, 2018, 02:10:39 pm »
+2

Cloning suggests gaining a second copy of a card in your possession or that you're just gaining. It doesn't mean just "gaining things"; that was crj's entire point to start with.

And why is it strategically important to "clone" things instead of just "gaining" them?
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markusin

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #466 on: April 24, 2018, 02:32:42 pm »
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No one mentioned Jester as a means of "cloning" potion-cost cards?
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O

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #467 on: April 24, 2018, 02:39:06 pm »
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Cloning suggests gaining a second copy of a card in your possession or that you're just gaining. It doesn't mean just "gaining things"; that was crj's entire point to start with.

And why is it strategically important to "clone" things instead of just "gaining" them?

This question, of course, is completely irrelevant to anything I stated. I never claimed a specific strategic benefit, just that others were pointlessly expanding a term.

Despite this, you'll find there's a quite easy to find trend that cloning tends to be done at cheaper opportunity cost than gaining. Talisman giving a coin and not wasting an action compared to workshop, Changling being a one card opportunity cost with no action required vs any potential "gain a generic action" card.

Cloning is more restrictive, not less, than generically gaining them. But the cloning cards cost less or give other benefits by working within that restriction.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 02:42:37 pm by O »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #468 on: April 24, 2018, 02:55:42 pm »
0

Despite this, you'll find there's a quite easy to find trend that cloning tends to be done at cheaper opportunity cost than gaining. Talisman giving a coin and not wasting an action compared to workshop, Changling being a one card opportunity cost with no action required vs any potential "gain a generic action" card.

Cloning is more restrictive, not less, than generically gaining them. But the cloning cards cost less or give other benefits by working within that restriction.

But this just means that it's even more true that talking about ways of gaining Potion cost cards without Potions is even more relevant in a conversation that started out about a way of closing a Potion cost card.

If it were the inverse, then this would be a good point.. if someone was saying how it's not easy to gain a Potion-cost card, then bringing up Changeling wouldn't necessarily be helpful, because Changeling has the extra restriction of needed to have first gotten a Potion-cost card.
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O

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #469 on: April 24, 2018, 03:05:06 pm »
0

Despite this, you'll find there's a quite easy to find trend that cloning tends to be done at cheaper opportunity cost than gaining. Talisman giving a coin and not wasting an action compared to workshop, Changling being a one card opportunity cost with no action required vs any potential "gain a generic action" card.

Cloning is more restrictive, not less, than generically gaining them. But the cloning cards cost less or give other benefits by working within that restriction.

But this just means that it's even more true that talking about ways of gaining Potion cost cards without Potions is even more relevant in a conversation that started out about a way of closing a Potion cost card.

If it were the inverse, then this would be a good point.. if someone was saying how it's not easy to gain a Potion-cost card, then bringing up Changeling wouldn't necessarily be helpful, because Changeling has the extra restriction of needed to have first gotten a Potion-cost card.

Changling is a solid way to get further potion cost cards without gumming up your deck. That seems like a neat and useful card interaction. Part of why it's a solid way is that cloning a card can be done more easily or with other benefits as compared to gaining a card.

Pretty much none of these Hero-To-Gain-Philosopher's-Stone examples are useful interactions, except for the ones Chris listed, and then the first three of Gazbag (and I still don't think Stonemason works the vast majority of times).

These other examples of "potion gaining interactions" don't really do much to prove any point because they're not actually useful. If the desire is to show that "cloning" isn't particularly effective, it's not particularly compelling because so many of the "gaining" methods proposed are obtuse.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #470 on: April 24, 2018, 03:10:47 pm »
0

Despite this, you'll find there's a quite easy to find trend that cloning tends to be done at cheaper opportunity cost than gaining. Talisman giving a coin and not wasting an action compared to workshop, Changling being a one card opportunity cost with no action required vs any potential "gain a generic action" card.

Cloning is more restrictive, not less, than generically gaining them. But the cloning cards cost less or give other benefits by working within that restriction.

But this just means that it's even more true that talking about ways of gaining Potion cost cards without Potions is even more relevant in a conversation that started out about a way of closing a Potion cost card.

If it were the inverse, then this would be a good point.. if someone was saying how it's not easy to gain a Potion-cost card, then bringing up Changeling wouldn't necessarily be helpful, because Changeling has the extra restriction of needed to have first gotten a Potion-cost card.

Changling is a solid way to get further potion cost cards without gumming up your deck. That seems like a neat and useful card interaction. Part of why it's a solid way is that cloning a card can be done more easily or with other benefits as compared to gaining a card.

Pretty much none of these Hero-To-Gain-Philosopher's-Stone examples are useful interactions, except for the ones Chris listed, and then the first three of Gazbag (and I still don't think Stonemason works the vast majority of times).

These other examples of "potion gaining interactions" don't really do much to prove any point because they're not actually useful. If the desire is to show that "cloning" isn't particularly effective, it's not particularly compelling because so many of the "gaining" methods proposed are obtuse.

My original point was that what makes Changeling good is the ability to gain any hard-to-gain card. Whether Changeling gains that card through cloning or not is irrelevant to that. I was just saying that Potion-cost cards are just 1 type of hard-to gain cards; expensive cards and cards with buying restrictions are in the same category.

In other words, yes Changeling+Alchemist is a good interaction. But it's the same basic idea as Changeling+King's Court, or Changeling+Grand Market.
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Gazbag

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #471 on: April 24, 2018, 03:54:03 pm »
+1

Pretty much none of these Hero-To-Gain-Philosopher's-Stone examples are useful interactions, except for the ones Chris listed, and then the first three of Gazbag (and I still don't think Stonemason works the vast majority of times).

You can overpay Potion if you weren't aware, Stonemason is probably the single easiest way to "clone" a Potion buy.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #472 on: April 24, 2018, 04:27:19 pm »
0

Pretty much none of these Hero-To-Gain-Philosopher's-Stone examples are useful interactions, except for the ones Chris listed, and then the first three of Gazbag (and I still don't think Stonemason works the vast majority of times).

You can overpay Potion if you weren't aware, Stonemason is probably the single easiest way to "clone" a Potion buy.


Ah, I've done that before but for some reason I was hyperfocused on the trashing ability.
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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #473 on: April 24, 2018, 04:34:27 pm »
0

Pretty much none of these Hero-To-Gain-Philosopher's-Stone examples are useful interactions

That's not a problem in this thread. This thread is for posting game reports about games in which you found an interaction. The thread for useful interactions is over here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12757.0
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GendoIkari

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Re: Neat card interactions that were useful in the game you found them in.
« Reply #474 on: April 24, 2018, 05:05:04 pm »
0

Pretty much none of these Hero-To-Gain-Philosopher's-Stone examples are useful interactions

That's not a problem in this thread. This thread is for posting game reports about games in which you found an interaction. The thread for useful interactions is over here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12757.0

To be fair, using Hero to gain a Philosopher's Stone wasn't something that happened in a game, at least not in a game with me, who mentioned it.
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