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Author Topic: What is the worst card in Dominion?  (Read 122095 times)

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Ozle

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #150 on: February 16, 2012, 01:58:08 pm »
0

Apart the dirt slimy feeling inside when you bought it? Hehe

You had all those moats and still picked up 4 curses, 1 more than your opponent did! (and even with all the moats bought still 70% of the curses got drawn out)
So the defensive part was poor, and so you were basically paying $2 for +2 card terminal action....rubbish.

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #151 on: February 16, 2012, 02:03:35 pm »
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Unfortunately, the first hand after a reshuffle is the hand in which Counting House (or indeed any card) is most likely to show up.

Huh?
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LastFootnote

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #152 on: February 16, 2012, 02:19:31 pm »
+1

Unfortunately, the first hand after a reshuffle is the hand in which Counting House (or indeed any card) is most likely to show up.

Huh?

Well, think about it starting from the base case. If you have fewer than 10 cards in your deck (without sifters), you will never have any cards in your discard pile during your turn, so Counting House will always be worthless. If you have 10 through 14 cards in your deck, Counting House has to be in cards 6 through 10 for there to an anything in your discard pile. If it's in cards 1 through 5, it's obviously worth nothing. If it's in cards 11 through 14, you'll have to reshuffle your deck to draw a full hand and Counting House is worthless again. You can extrapolate from there that Counting House is most likely to be in the first hand after a reshuffle. The more cards in your deck, the less pronounced the effect is.

It's always bad when a $5 action misses a reshuffle, but with Counting House it's catastrophic.
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dondon151

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #153 on: February 16, 2012, 06:05:18 pm »
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You had all those moats and still picked up 4 curses, 1 more than your opponent did! (and even with all the moats bought still 70% of the curses got drawn out)
So the defensive part was poor, and so you were basically paying $2 for +2 card terminal action....rubbish.

I totally disagree with this analysis. There were multiple turns where jimjam got hit by a multiple-Torturer hand and managed to block it completely with Moat. You're bound to get hit a couple of times sooner or later, but if only 7 Curses get dealt in a game where there were all 10 Torturers split between the players, I'd say that Moat has done a fine job.

In fact I'd say that Torturer is one of the attacks that Moat defends relatively well against. You wouldn't want to get a Moat when the attacks on the board aren't very strong (too much opportunity cost), and a lot of attacks don't stack very well when played repeatedly, but Moat in a Torturer kingdom is one of those cards that can prevent you from being boned from not pulling off the Torturer chain first.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 06:08:58 pm by dondon151 »
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jimjam

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #154 on: February 18, 2012, 03:29:21 am »
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Apart the dirt slimy feeling inside when you bought it? Hehe

You had all those moats and still picked up 4 curses, 1 more than your opponent did! (and even with all the moats bought still 70% of the curses got drawn out)
So the defensive part was poor, and so you were basically paying $2 for +2 card terminal action....rubbish.

Hmm, when did I ever pay $2 for Moat? And +2 cards, while weak, is fine with me if I have a huge pile of +actions, say, from fishing village. But I guess if you feel great just buying power cards without considering the board, good for you.
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Ozle

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #155 on: February 18, 2012, 06:47:05 am »
+3

Darn you all, again with all your well thought out reason and logic against my irrational and unjustifiable hatred of a card!

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WanderingWinder

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #156 on: February 20, 2012, 11:53:19 am »
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Oh, I should mention. Adventurer decently good with governor.

ecq

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #157 on: February 21, 2012, 04:54:08 pm »
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Oh, I should mention. Adventurer decently good with governor.

Could you elaborate?  And is it better than Governor with Governor?
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Epoch

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #158 on: February 22, 2012, 06:15:38 pm »
+2

Could you elaborate?  And is it better than Governor with Governor?

I am not WW, but some obvious reasons why Adventurer is good with Governor:

1.  You get lots of Gold & Silver in your deck owing to your Governors and your opponent's governors.
2.  Adventurer can be Governored into a Province.
3.  You can also get scenarios where you might use Adventurer, get a Gold & a Silver into your hand, and then Governor the Gold and play the Silver.  Though this depends on having multiple Actions available to you.

As to whether Adventurer is better than another Governor, well, you can't Governor a Governor into a Province.  So there's at least some call to buy an actual $6 instead of a $5.  And my experience is that typically in Governor games the Governor pile is depleted at some point.

Do you get a single Adventurer over Gold?  Presumably you do if you expect that for most of the plays of Adventurer, your average money value in your deck is > $1.5 (so, say, once you have 2 Golds & 2 Silvers?  11 money, value = $17, average = 17 / 11 = $1.54).  It doesn't take long for your average money value to exceed $1.5 in a Governor game.
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brewmaster27

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #159 on: February 20, 2014, 01:12:20 pm »
0

Of all the Dominion cards, I have to say the worst one is Harvest. Surprisingly, that card didn't make the list of overall worst cards. I think what makes it the worst is the fact that it's terminal and really doesn't fit in well with most decks. Let's think about it analytically:

In games with other 5-cost cards and swindler, it just becomes swindler fodder.

In games that lend themselves to spamming a certain card or combo, you don't get the benefit of the +coins per differently named cards. Plus it has the added disadvantage of discarding those potentially useful cards!

In games that do lend themselves to using a variety of different cards, you'd almost certainly rather pick up another 5-cost non-terminal card than harvest. Even just taking a duchy would probably be better in most circumstances.

Best case scenario, harvest reveals 4 differently named cards. You get +4 coins. A lot of things could have given you just as much money, with the added benefit of +actions, +cards, etc. (especially in games where TR/KC are present).

In games with tunnel, you could use it to reveal 4 tunnels to get 4 golds (if you were lucky or had the observation type cards to make it happen), but then you'd only get +1 coin from it that turn, so it's not useful for a short-term gain (which is why you'd be playing it in the first place). Plus if you wanted to get 4 golds right away, you'd probably have just as good or better luck with treasure map.

For all the hate here about transmute, I actually like it sometimes. It works well as a starter to turn estates into gold, and then from that point on, acts as a situational-type trasher. Not to mention, it synergies all so nicely with vineyard.

Harvest gets the worst card vote from me.
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Asper

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #160 on: February 20, 2014, 05:13:27 pm »
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Scout. If not Scout, Adventurer.

Adventurer is a terminal Gold if you are lucky, for the cost of a nonterminal Gold. This is rubbish. In some games you might have use for it, but only if you have very many good treasures. It happens almost never.

Scout is still worse, because i almost never want it. True, i had a game where the kingdom included Fortune Teller and Nobles, and my opponent always topdecked one of my Nobles for me, so Scout was essentially +1Card, +1Action with the chance to draw another Nobles. It was nice, but even then it was just a better cantrip (something Scheme can do far better). With Adventurer you at least know what could cause it to be better, but i admit it's extremely close.

Thief is not as horrible as is often said here. But maybe i'm biased, too, as i never play games with less than 3 players. It's still fairly weak, but not as awful as the other two.

Same 3+ players argument goes for Moat.

Transmute is bad, but if you are lucky and there are other Potion cards, buying a Transmute with 1P is not necessarily a bad thing to do.

Chancellor i just like, and i also think its effect is useful. It's just bad when it collides with another terminal - if it doesn't, it's a better Silver. There are not many boards where the risk is low enough for the benefit, but there are some.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 05:16:13 pm by Asper »
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #161 on: February 20, 2014, 05:18:01 pm »
+5

Best case scenario, harvest reveals 4 differently named cards. You get +4 coins. A lot of things could have given you just as much money, with the added benefit of +actions, +cards, etc. (especially in games where TR/KC are present).

Please tell me about all these actions which give at least 4 coins with other benefits.
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liopoil

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #162 on: February 20, 2014, 05:22:27 pm »
+1

...death cart? maybe?
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liopoil

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #163 on: February 20, 2014, 05:28:15 pm »
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...death cart? maybe?
not as worst card of course, as a potential card that gives lots of money and other stuff.

I think adventurer has to be the worst. There's fewer and fewer BM boards nowadays, and even on those, you still don't want it because there is probably a better terminal for your deck like smithy or something (and it is because of this smithy-or-something that you don't want adventurer because it is terminal even if it does give slightly above $3 on average in your deck). In colony games engines are even more viable, and also most games aren't colony games.

Essentially, I think the scenarios where adventurer is useful are a) less common than other bad cards like transmute and scout and b) It has a smaller positive impact in the situations where is useful (because it really isn't ever a LOT better than gold)
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #164 on: February 20, 2014, 05:35:50 pm »
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...death cart? maybe?
not as worst card of course, as a potential card that gives lots of money and other stuff.

I think adventurer has to be the worst. There's fewer and fewer BM boards nowadays, and even on those, you still don't want it because there is probably a better terminal for your deck like smithy or something (and it is because of this smithy-or-something that you don't want adventurer because it is terminal even if it does give slightly above $3 on average in your deck). In colony games engines are even more viable, and also most games aren't colony games.

Essentially, I think the scenarios where adventurer is useful are a) less common than other bad cards like transmute and scout and b) It has a smaller positive impact in the situations where is useful (because it really isn't ever a LOT better than gold)

Adventurer is good with platinum. There are some colony games with no +actions. I would say Adventurer is useful a little more often than transmute, which isn't a compliment, but it isn't the worst.
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #165 on: February 20, 2014, 07:00:12 pm »
0

Best case scenario, harvest reveals 4 differently named cards. You get +4 coins. A lot of things could have given you just as much money, with the added benefit of +actions, +cards, etc. (especially in games where TR/KC are present).

Please tell me about all these actions which give at least 4 coins with other benefits.

I notice now you actually said 'cards', not actions. So I suppose Platinum qualifies as it gives $5, and is a treasure so "non-terminal". Similarly I guess Bank can sometimes qualify, and Lio rightfully points out Death Cart can also give $5, and it's trashing is sometimes a benefit, so I guess that kinda counts as well. Beyond that... I can't think of much. Adventurer can give at least $4. Pirate Ship can give arbitrary amounts, but it's slow to do that and gives no other benefits. Vault, Secret Chamber and Storeroom can give more money than that, with other benefits - but that $4 comes at a huge cost of a big chunk of hand size.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't think Harvest is the best $5 ever, or even really an especially good one. But if there were a $5 card which just said "+$4", I think it'd be up there with the power $5's. That's a lot of economy from just one action. Of course that isn't what Harvest does. The way it works means earlygame, +$2 is quite likely, while later on +$3 is common and +$4 happens more than +$2, but if you draw your whole deck, then there's a good chance Harvest is just dead. That makes it... pretty tough to make work to a level which is worth the buy, but it can be done, it's not unreasonable. For that reason, I think it's a weaker $5 card, but not the worst $5, and certainly not the worst card.
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c4master

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #166 on: March 04, 2014, 04:18:56 am »
+1

As Scout is often being mentioned as the worst card, I thought, increasing it's strength wouldn't even change a lot. But I think, I'm wrong.

Let's just imagine Scout was a cantrip, that said: "reveal the top 3 cards and draw any green ones of those revealed cards". Without trashing, this could be nice to green early. Something weaker than Cartographer and Laboratory, which are both reasonably well $5 cards.

So maybe adding another little benefit instead of a "certein draw" would fit better. Something like +1 coin. Even then, I think, Scout would be worth it.
Adding a +buy always is a way for a card to shine, whenever there is no other +buy availible.
Adding +1 action would make it some Anti-Farming village, but still as great for engines, I guess. (You leave just those cards on top, you would like to draw to get your engine running. So you only need a drawing card on your hand together with Scout.)

Maybe this is, why Scout ended up, like it did. With all the new alternative VP cards, Scout would fit much better at $3, so that you could buy one, if you missed silk road or feodom. It also could help enable conspirators, but again, they cost $4, so there's kind of a conflict.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #167 on: March 04, 2014, 06:06:45 am »
0

Quote
For all the hate here about transmute, I actually like it sometimes. It works well as a starter to turn estates into gold, and then from that point on, acts as a situational-type trasher. Not to mention, it synergies all so nicely with vineyard.

Transmute has weird synergies with other cards.
I don't see vineyard really working - you can't clutter your deck with Transmutes.
Duke is one that comes to mind - Rebuild is another.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #168 on: March 04, 2014, 06:14:35 am »
0

I am missing Cache in this set - I almost never buy this.
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #169 on: March 04, 2014, 07:47:11 am »
+2

I am missing Cache in this set - I almost never buy this.

cache isn't that bad, it's a gold for 5$ with watchtower, a great buy with trader, a great buy with gardens, a good buy in slogs

Jack Rudd

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #170 on: March 04, 2014, 08:35:55 am »
0

I am missing Cache in this set - I almost never buy this.

cache isn't that bad, it's a gold for 5$ with watchtower, a great buy with trader, a great buy with gardens, a good buy in slogs
Watchtower and Trader I'll give you, but the problem with Cache in a Gardens deck is the same as the problem with Hoard in a Gardens deck - yes, it does suit the deck, but you want to gain the Gardens more than you want to gain the more-expensive cards that bolster it.
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silverspawn

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #171 on: March 04, 2014, 08:46:29 am »
0

I am missing Cache in this set - I almost never buy this.

cache isn't that bad, it's a gold for 5$ with watchtower, a great buy with trader, a great buy with gardens, a good buy in slogs
Watchtower and Trader I'll give you, but the problem with Cache in a Gardens deck is the same as the problem with Hoard in a Gardens deck - yes, it does suit the deck, but you want to gain the Gardens more than you want to gain the more-expensive cards that bolster it.

yes, but in some cases you don't go gardens right away. when there's workshop, ironworks, storeroom, or another guaranteed ->4$, you'll get gardens so early that you'll never get to 5$. But if there's Sea Hag, no powercards, cache and gardens, you'll open silver/hag and get a couple of caches before you go for gardens

i dislike cache because of its similiarity to masterpiece. for 5$ it's almost the same, for <5$ you'll never buy either of them, so the only difference is that masterpiece also makes sense for >5$. the only thing cache has going for it is the watchtower/trader combination and sometimes the fact that you get coppers on gain instead of on buy
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 08:49:48 am by silverspawn »
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #172 on: March 04, 2014, 09:30:06 am »
0

Cache increases the variance of your deck way more than a $5 Masterpiece, so it combos with all the sifting cards in Hinterlands. It's quite good with Stables particularly, but it's hard to know when to buy a Cache instead of another Stables.

It would perhaps be nice if Cache did something else in addition to giving +$3. In so many games, you'd just never buy it over Gold given the choice.
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Asper

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #173 on: March 04, 2014, 09:50:09 am »
+2

It would perhaps be nice if Cache did something else in addition to giving +$3. In so many games, you'd just never buy it over Gold given the choice.

I had a Junk Dealer game recently where (later on) i wanted it over Gold, actually.
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #174 on: March 04, 2014, 01:10:43 pm »
0

Quote
Cache increases the variance of your deck way more than a $5 Masterpiece, so it combos with all the sifting cards in Hinterlands. It's quite good with Stables particularly, but it's hard to know when to buy a Cache instead of another Stables.

Does it ? I mean, you get extra coppers. If there is a hunting party or stables on the board, I'd rather go for that.
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