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Author Topic: What is the worst card in Dominion?  (Read 122085 times)

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chwhite

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #100 on: February 09, 2012, 06:16:27 pm »
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So what's your guy's favorite card here? Mine would be Explorer. Apprentice/Explorer is pretty neat, for one. And it's like the Tournament before Tournament existed.

Well, I pick up Duchess and Chancellor in over 30 percent of the games I play; Chancellor is probably the card here where my opinion is highest compared to the community at large.  Chancellor/Stash is really strong, it's a good percentage play if you're angling for Mountebank or Familiar, and sometimes even just terminal silver with a weak benefit is worth $3, say if you're going for Scrying Pool madness and you've got the Villages to make it work.  I probably buy it a little too often, but most people don't buy it often enough.  Duchess is a strong opener for many 5/2 opening splits, and also as a free pickup in junkball decks full of green (Duke, Silk Road in particular).

I buy them less often, but Contraband and Secret Chamber deserve mention here as well; Contraband is I think certainly the most powerful card on this list, and I've defended it already upthread.  Secret Chamber is not much for a Reaction (though it's better than expected against Minions and Swindlers if nothing else), but even a poor man's Vault can be a great combo enabler at times (cough, cough, Tactician).  SC has my single highest Effect With in fact, so obviously I've grown to like it at least a little.

Okay, those are four cards rather than one.  Sorry, it's hard to choose. :P
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 07:53:42 pm by chwhite »
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ddubois

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #101 on: February 09, 2012, 06:43:53 pm »
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I ravaged someone with Fool's Gold/Adventurer once.  It's underrated.  I think there's spots where you should buy it near the end of trashing game when you're both heavily greened and it's a guaranteed 5 or 6 dollars.

I've also stuck Thief into a deep KC engine when I was overloaded with draw and way behind on econ/vp and needed the money so I could buy 4-5 greens at a time: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120208-194832-8da13b70.html

Scout shouldn't even be on the list.  Just because newbs open it, doesn't mean it's not amazing in crossroads/great hall/harem/nobles decks.

I voted Transmute, but looking at my 'win with' rates, I'd like to change my vote.  The cards I have the lowest winrate with are Smugglers, and Possession.  This is because when those cards are out, baddies get to take advantage of my superior buy strategey, instead of thinking for themselves/building their own inferior deck.  Plus they are just are just stupid cards , as in, bad game design.  I hate them.
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toaster

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #102 on: February 09, 2012, 06:49:46 pm »
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Well, I think the fact that they account for your worst win rate points less to a problem with their design and more to the fact that you have yet to master their use.

I used to absolutely hate Possession for the reasons you mentioned.  Now (although I still hate multi-possession turns purely for downtime issues) I quite enjoy them, because they force me to evaluate the possibilities for counter-play against them (and there are many such options), which in turns informs whether I should be going for them myself.
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PerdHapley

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #103 on: February 09, 2012, 06:52:49 pm »
+1

I'll echo what others have said, that some of these cards absolutely don't deserve to be in this discussion. I have an Effect With of 1.58 for Adventurer, and it has my 11th highest win rate with of any card, directly behind Counting House at 10. Contraband is my #5, behind only Followers, Trusty Steed, Princess and Sea Hag. Contraband is definitely the most out of place card on this list, but that's been defended pretty well already, so I'll go ahead and stand up for Adventurer.

Adventurer may not be the absolute cornerstone of any one strategy, but that's true of many cards that wouldn't even be considered for this list. It's a card that can push a pretty solid deck over the edge, it's much, much better in Colony games, and it's often a useful addition to engines on boards with light trashing that want to draw their whole deck every turn but can't quite make it. It pairs excellently with Throne Room and King's Court, which, sure, most cards do, but not nearly all of them. It's worth picking over gold just once at some point on boards with good trashing that result in decks light on treasure, and useful on almost any board in which you're draining victory card piles. It's absolutely underrated in otherwise-mirror matches that end in duchy-dancing.

It's even a usually worthwhile buy in games with heavy cursing/no trashing - throw it in a kingdom with Sea Hag and Colony, for instance, and you should pretty quickly understand it's utility. Yes, in that situation it's going to be worth $2 instead of $3+ much of the time, but it'll also serve as a Loan-esque defense against Sea Hag and a perfectly reasonable cycler. For this reason it's also perfectly worthwhile against attacks like Rabble, Fortune Teller and Ghost Ship.

And then there's Bank. Adventurer has the problem of being compared unfavorably to Venture, but if Venture's not around Adventurer is still capable of pulling off many of the same tricks, and has the advantage of the aforementioned King's Court - a KC'd Adventurer can be an absolute godsend, especially with extra buys.

And how about Vineyards? Did you put together a crazy deck bloated with action cards only to start losing the vineyard race because you can't cycle to your potions fast enough? Well, have I got a card for you... Horn of Plenty is another good partner - did you build an engine designed to get to 8 unique cards and trash Horns for Provinces, only to not pull your horns at the right time? Alternately, would the horns of plenty you did draw get there if you could just find that one Silver you have tucked away? Really, any time there's a specific special treasure card in your deck that needs to be played often, there aren't many cards that will be better at digging for it.

Obviously some of these are fringe cases. I don't want to imply that it's a great card by any means. The cost is obviously the big issue, and it's true that it would probably work just fine at $5, where it would be a much stronger $5 than many people realize, but still not broken. I wouldn't even put it at the bottom of the $6+ card list.

I didn't get into the game until after Prosperity came out, so I can't really say for sure, but my guess is that the presence of Venture in the game has likely ruined people's ability to perceive and play this card correctly, and created an unfair reverse cellar/warehouse style comparison (where the more expensive card is considered directly inferior) that doesn't really apply to these two. They certainly do a great many things similarly, and Venture is quite a bit better at some of them, but that's not really the point - Venture is an excellent BM card, and Adventurer is an underrated engine cog that is directly useful in more situations than people care to realize. It simply does too many things at least reasonably well to be the very worst card in the game.
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PerdHapley

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #104 on: February 09, 2012, 07:01:20 pm »
+1

First of all, Adventuer works better in a big money deck than it does in an engine deck. After all, if you're playing an engine deck, you'd generally prefer to draw your engine components (so that you can draw your entire deck) rather than digging past them to get to your Treasures. Lots of engine decks don't need Treasures in general. The more players in a game, the less practical an engine deck becomes because there are more players contending for those engine cards. When big money is more practical, Adventuer becomes more desirable.

Oh man, someone beat me to it, but with the opposite point I was making. I'm not convinced that Adventurer is better at Big Money than in engines. It's a good point that a perfect engine draws the whole deck and doesn't need Adventurer and or treasure at all, but that's why it's a card that can be ignored much of the time. The times when it does work as an engine component, however, it can work extremely well. Off to hunt for a sample game...

EDIT:

Okay, here's one where Adventurer makes the difference on a board that includes Moneylender, Worker's Village, Throne Room and Tactician: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110906-000009-04bae020.html

Another where Adventurer twice (on turns 15 and 19) enables Province buys on a Fishing Village/Apothecary/Coppersmith board that both would have failed had it been a Gold instead: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120109-180548-6f0750a0.html

The final turn of this game, where one Adventurer is bought late and only used once on the last turn to purchase a Province where a Gold couldn't have (okay, this one's a stretch...): http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110902-002717-f9cd5e03.html

Here's a game where, while not being utilized really at all, it serves as a nice little safety net in a Scrying Pool Deck with heavy trashing that has enough Gold and hypothetically needs protection from becoming drowned in green: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110830-204619-a4ffb245.html

And here's one (an old one, so the overall play quality isn't perfect, but it's still a valid example) with King's Court, Sea Hag and Horn of Plenty where Adventurer is perhaps the single key card and destroys a deck that ignore it and buys 7 more Golds and an extra Platinum, despite a 4/6 curse split and no trashing. Despite its flaws, a good example of Adventurer's occasional ability to shine in a Colony engine. Check out turns 27, 28, 34 and 40 especially: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110929-025201-7262d1e7.html
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 08:11:23 pm by PerdHapley »
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Jorbles

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #105 on: February 09, 2012, 07:23:19 pm »
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I'm not so sure an Adventurer is that strong in Big Money. Though it's better than straight Big Money; it can barely beat BigMoat (BigMoat: 49/BigAdventurer: 51) (a variation on BigSmithy with the Moat replacing the Smithy). It gets soundly thumped by BigSmithy (BigSmithy: 68/BigAdventurer: 32) and I didn't even bother testing it against strong BigMoney variants. Don't get me wrong in the context of this discussion I think Adventurer is far from the worst card in the game despite being priced at $6 when it would make a lot more sense as a $5, but I think it's only really useful in games where you can trash out the Coppers (or a least most of them) and only as a mid-to-late game purchase.
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'BigAdventurer'
  requires: ['Adventurer']
  gainPriority: (state, my) ->
    if state.supply.Colony?
      [
        "Colony" if my.getTotalMoney() > 32
        "Province" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 6
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
        "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
        "Platinum"
        "Province" if state.countInSupply("Colony") <= 7
        'Adventurer' if my.countInDeck("Adventurer") < 1 and my.countInDeck("Gold") > 0
        "Gold"
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 6
        "Silver"
        "Copper" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
      ]
    else
      [
        "Province" if my.getTotalMoney() > 18
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4
        "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
        'Adventurer' if my.countInDeck("Adventurer") < 1 and my.countInDeck("Gold") > 0
        "Gold"
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 6
        "Silver"
      ]
}
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Tables

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #106 on: February 09, 2012, 07:26:51 pm »
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While I'm not yet going to change my stance on Adventurer (Transmute might get the vote, though...), I will say I agree somewhat with one thing Perd is saying: It's good on boards with special effect treasures. However, you need to be able to have a good chance of digging for those treasures, so there's no point building a HoP board intending for Adventurer to grab them if your deck still has all it's coppers. So it requires some trashing still. And even then, it's probably not the best way of getting your components together.

Adventurer does, however, combo nicely with HoP. It's a good way of getting at least 1-2 extra unique cards in play -Adventurer and hopefully 1-2 new treasures you drew. 1 card to boost Horn by 3 isn't bad.

Perhaps the biggest complaint I have with Adventurer is... while it occasionally shines, just like any other card, far far too often it sits at $6 and is pretty much worthless, with Gold just being more useful. But the more I think about it the more I feel that applies even more to Transmute... bah.

Someone, stand up and defend Transmute! Show me why I should stick to my stubborn opinion :).
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Ozle

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #107 on: February 09, 2012, 07:43:36 pm »
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So what's your guy's favorite card here? Mine would be Explorer. Apprentice/Explorer is pretty neat, for one. And it's like the Tournament before Tournament existed.

Thief!

Haha, no, only joking, i dont particularily like any of them, most seem to swingy to me! (thus letting me blame luck if i get beaten by an opponent who has one in his deck somewhere)
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Kahryl

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #108 on: February 09, 2012, 07:49:16 pm »
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Explorer is my favorite here too. I just really like getting stuff for free!
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RisingJaguar

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #109 on: February 09, 2012, 08:18:15 pm »
+1

I particularly like... other
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ratxt1

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #110 on: February 09, 2012, 08:20:46 pm »
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explorer is my favorite i have a few fun games with it like this one (especially turn 13).
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120206-231620-32a7a7f2.html

i think it and contraband are the best card on this list and should probably be taken off. here is an example where contraband is the dominant 5 cost card. my opponent resigns early so they're isn't much gameplay but it illustrates contraband's power effectivly enough.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120208-231954-d484cdee.html

« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 08:53:23 pm by ratxt1 »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #111 on: February 09, 2012, 08:51:21 pm »
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I ravaged someone with Fool's Gold/Adventurer once.  It's underrated.  I think there's spots where you should buy it near the end of trashing game when you're both heavily greened and it's a guaranteed 5 or 6 dollars.

I've also stuck Thief into a deep KC engine when I was overloaded with draw and way behind on econ/vp and needed the money so I could buy 4-5 greens at a time: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120208-194832-8da13b70.html

Scout shouldn't even be on the list.  Just because newbs open it, doesn't mean it's not amazing in crossroads/great hall/harem/nobles decks.

I voted Transmute, but looking at my 'win with' rates, I'd like to change my vote.  The cards I have the lowest winrate with are Smugglers, and Possession.  This is because when those cards are out, baddies get to take advantage of my superior buy strategey, instead of thinking for themselves/building their own inferior deck.  Plus they are just are just stupid cards , as in, bad game design.  I hate them.

I'm assuming this whole post, or at least most of it, is sarcastic?

Fabian

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #112 on: February 09, 2012, 10:20:37 pm »
+4

ddubois gonna ddubois, more likely.
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Robz888

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #113 on: February 10, 2012, 01:46:19 am »
+3

Scout shouldn't even be on the list.  Just because newbs open it, doesn't mean it's not amazing in crossroads/great hall/harem/nobles decks.

I disagree. Scout should very much be on this list. In fact, I think it's close to being the worst card on this list, though not quite as bad as Transmute. Scout is certainly helpful in the above situation, but keep in mind the following:

-- Scout is the least important card in that deck. I mean, Crossroads with GH, Nobles, or Harem runs pretty spectacularly on its own.
-- All those cards (5 of them!) showing up in the same game is pretty rare. Start cutting some of them out, and Scout just falls apart. Scout/Harem is okay, Scout/Nobles is meh. Scout/Great Hall isn't even worth mentioning without great support, like Ironworks or something. Crossroads would be better than Scout in those situations, and it's much cheaper.
-- There is almost no other situation where Scout is very useful. It's not even a good sifter, really.

You could cost Scout at $2 and Crossroads would still be better most of the time. Heck, Cellar would be better most of the time.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #114 on: February 10, 2012, 02:37:12 am »
+1

Chancellor is probably the card here where my opinion is highest compared to the community at large... it's a good percentage play if you're angling for Mountebank or Familiar...
I'm pretty sure Chancellor goes pretty poorly with cursing. Intuitively, the problem is that your discard pile is not generally stronger than your deck for a good part of the game, so the ability is unlikely to help you. Simulator agrees, saying that adding a Chancellor opening to Mountebank is significantly worst than just Silver/Silver (like 37-58). Of course it misplays Chancellor, but even so, it's unlikely to help much, at least as an opening. There are usually better things to open with.
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DrHades

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #115 on: February 10, 2012, 06:44:39 am »
0

-- There is almost no other situation where Scout is very useful. It's not even a good sifter, really.

Minion, Tactician, Scrying Pool, Vault, Wishing Well, against Ghost Ship and that is just from the top of my head...

Yes, Scout is bad. But still - he is an ugly cousin of Cartographer and Cartographer is pretty good so...

I really like Scout, it is my most favourite card from this list ;D
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #116 on: February 10, 2012, 11:44:14 am »
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Adventurer is terrible against trashing attacks (Swindler, Saboteur, Thief, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand), so let's get that out of the way first. Thief, Pirate Ship, and Noble Brigand trash the Treasures that Adventurer needs to function.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily the case. In the same way Golem is good if you have a couple of key actions you want to play over and over, Adventurer can be good if you have just a couple of key treasures. If you're getting Thieved or Pirate Shipped, then instead of buying Gold, which can get attacked, you can keep just a few Golds around and use Adventurers to grab them when you need them. (Then after you do that, your treasures are likely to be in your discard pile, and thus probably out of range of attack for the next turn.) To get to Provinces this way it helps to have a Festival or so as well, of course.
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O

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #117 on: February 10, 2012, 12:58:14 pm »
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Chancellor is probably the card here where my opinion is highest compared to the community at large... it's a good percentage play if you're angling for Mountebank or Familiar...
I'm pretty sure Chancellor goes pretty poorly with cursing. Intuitively, the problem is that your discard pile is not generally stronger than your deck for a good part of the game, so the ability is unlikely to help you. Simulator agrees, saying that adding a Chancellor opening to Mountebank is significantly worst than just Silver/Silver (like 37-58). Of course it misplays Chancellor, but even so, it's unlikely to help much, at least as an opening. There are usually better things to open with.

How badly does it misplay? Does it, for example, discard when mountebank is still in the deck? That would certainly make a pretty massive difference.
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jomini

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #118 on: February 10, 2012, 01:25:24 pm »
0

In defense of transmute:

1. We all know the potion gamble, there are some really powerful cards at 2P, 3P, and 4P ... but lady luck isn't always kind enough to give us a board where missing those magic cutoffs gives good choices. E.g. I'm planning on a Scrying Pool deck and I hit 1P. Now my choices are  nothing or transmute. Transmute, while crappy, is an action that my pool can draw and is something that can convert those SP draw stopping coppers into stuff I can draw. Transmute is not a bad buy on 1P if the dominant strategy is SP/whatever. Likewise we all hate familiar games where we hit our potion on T3 and can't get started cursing for another whole shuffle, transmute can at least crunch estates to gold and pitch the odd curse.
2. It is a way to break parity without card gainers or +buy. So let's say there is a dominant strategy out there that makes use of potion cards, if you have have a potion, you can do some fun endgame hijinx like buy a province/transmute an action to a duchy leaving the opponent down 9 points and giving yourself a pretty easy way to win.
3. In some circumstances you can abuse it for gold or duchy gain. The simplest thing is something like great hall or island where you can grab golds & duchies at the same time; this works even better if there is something like workshop out there to allow easy massing of the dual card types. Another shot is feeding transmute a steady diet of fresh estates; like say from followers and perhaps even doing something like crossroads, followers, transmute, and remodel.
4. It is a marginal swindler defense. Your opponent swindles your throne room into a potion. You buy a transmute, now it can't become a dead card when swindled and it can clear out garbage for some benefit (e.g. transmuting estates - particulary stuff that used to be good 2s like pawns, duchies, or crap actions into treasure or duchies).

The real problem with transmute is isotropic. It comes up way too often without cards that were designed to synergize with it (all the potion cards, apprentice). If other potion friendly cards aren't out then those first turns spent buying a potion are a bust and trasnmute sucks. But if the potion is already a sunk cost (as it is in many alchemy heavy games, which I understand are supposed to be how the set was designed), then it is pretty good for the cost and can help in a large number of ways.
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tlloyd

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #119 on: February 10, 2012, 01:43:43 pm »
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-- There is almost no other situation where Scout is very useful. It's not even a good sifter, really.

Minion, Tactician, Scrying Pool, Vault, Wishing Well, against Ghost Ship and that is just from the top of my head...

Yes, Scout is bad. But still - he is an ugly cousin of Cartographer and Cartographer is pretty good so...

I really like Scout, it is my most favourite card from this list ;D

Scout can also be an effective counter to Fortune Teller and (much more importantly) Rabble - especially late-game multi-Rabble pins. But Farming Village is an even stronger counter, costs the same, and is useful in a much broader set of circumstances. Scout should have been "draw any green from top four cards, then +1 card +1 action."
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2012, 02:32:26 pm »
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Scout can also be an effective counter to Fortune Teller and (much more importantly) Rabble - especially late-game multi-Rabble pins. But Farming Village is an even stronger counter, costs the same, and is useful in a much broader set of circumstances. Scout should have been "draw any green from top four cards, then +1 card +1 action."
Then it would probably have to cost $5...
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DrHades

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #121 on: February 10, 2012, 02:36:14 pm »
0

-- There is almost no other situation where Scout is very useful. It's not even a good sifter, really.

Minion, Tactician, Scrying Pool, Vault, Wishing Well, against Ghost Ship and that is just from the top of my head...

Yes, Scout is bad. But still - he is an ugly cousin of Cartographer and Cartographer is pretty good so...

I really like Scout, it is my most favourite card from this list ;D

Scout can also be an effective counter to Fortune Teller and (much more importantly) Rabble - especially late-game multi-Rabble pins. But Farming Village is an even stronger counter, costs the same, and is useful in a much broader set of circumstances. Scout should have been "draw any green from top four cards, then +1 card +1 action."

I am afraid that would be too strong even for 5$...I mean, look at Cartographer...

Maybe if you first draw the card, then get the green and rearange the rest...but still it's too powerfull imo...
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #122 on: February 10, 2012, 03:02:22 pm »
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Sifting first seems a little strong for $4, but it still wouldn't really be better than Cartographer. Maybe with things like Great Halls/alternate VPs, but Cartographer also goes through your Coppers or other cards you don't want, making it more versatile. I'd certainly agree with it being +1 card, +1 action, draw victory cards in the first 4 cards, though.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Robz888

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #123 on: February 10, 2012, 03:08:27 pm »
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Scout can also be an effective counter to Fortune Teller and (much more importantly) Rabble - especially late-game multi-Rabble pins. But Farming Village is an even stronger counter, costs the same, and is useful in a much broader set of circumstances. Scout should have been "draw any green from top four cards, then +1 card +1 action."
It's a counter, but I'm not sure I'd call it an effective one. Sure, Scout will bail you out of a Rabble attack the one time you have it in hand. But that's not really going to matter if you're being Rabble-pinned every turn. And buying extra Scouts is a huge problem, because Scout doesn't do anything in the situation except defend against the Attack, so you aren't really improving your deck. It's much more worthwhile for your deck to load up on Farming Villages and Lighthouses.
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I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

tlloyd

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #124 on: February 10, 2012, 03:12:08 pm »
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Scout can also be an effective counter to Fortune Teller and (much more importantly) Rabble - especially late-game multi-Rabble pins. But Farming Village is an even stronger counter, costs the same, and is useful in a much broader set of circumstances. Scout should have been "draw any green from top four cards, then +1 card +1 action."
It's a counter, but I'm not sure I'd call it an effective one. Sure, Scout will bail you out of a Rabble attack the one time you have it in hand. But that's not really going to matter if you're being Rabble-pinned every turn. And buying extra Scouts is a huge problem, because Scout doesn't do anything in the situation except defend against the Attack, so you aren't really improving your deck. It's much more worthwhile for your deck to load up on Farming Villages and Lighthouses.

Did you read beyond the first sentence of my post?
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