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Author Topic: What is the worst card in Dominion?  (Read 122122 times)

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Ozle

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2012, 07:32:35 am »
0

I have gone moat.

Its a waste of a card and I think I have only ever bought it once.
Ithas to hit multiple times for it to have been of use, and even then it has less use than people think because its taking your hand down to 4 cards +moat.

The +2 cards is 'alright' but I wouldnt buy it just for that.

I think of it this way.
You buy a moat, if you never use it, you have wasted a buy

If you use it once then all you have done is nullify the attack part of the card. So you have used one buy and a card from hand to negate the attack part of his buy. If his card also does something else, such as draw or +couns then you are still down.

Multiple uses: unless moat is somehow part of your grand scheme, then everytime you draw it you might as well be playing with 4 card hands. Is that enough justification to buy one to counter the attacks? It would have to be a consistant attacking opponent for it to be worthwhile, and then you would only have it when you draw it so you would need to buy multiples for it to be effective.

I really do hate moat, almost as much as an irrational hatred of Woodcutter.
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DrHades

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2012, 08:12:03 am »
+2

I have gone moat.

Its a waste of a card and I think I have only ever bought it once.
Ithas to hit multiple times for it to have been of use, and even then it has less use than people think because its taking your hand down to 4 cards +moat.

The +2 cards is 'alright' but I wouldnt buy it just for that.

I think of it this way.
You buy a moat, if you never use it, you have wasted a buy

If you use it once then all you have done is nullify the attack part of the card. So you have used one buy and a card from hand to negate the attack part of his buy. If his card also does something else, such as draw or +couns then you are still down.

Multiple uses: unless moat is somehow part of your grand scheme, then everytime you draw it you might as well be playing with 4 card hands. Is that enough justification to buy one to counter the attacks? It would have to be a consistant attacking opponent for it to be worthwhile, and then you would only have it when you draw it so you would need to buy multiples for it to be effective.

I really do hate moat, almost as much as an irrational hatred of Woodcutter.

Using Moat to block any non-curse giving attack? Silly. Using Moat to block a cursing attack? Well, let's analyze this:

Until I block the attack, it is a useless +2 cards. But after the first block, I have a +2 cards inestead of -1 VP! That is great! I wouldn't bought it with 3/4 split (I want a Silver to buy that Witch myself) but anytime I would have 2$ Moat is the right choice.

Moat can be also usefull when your opponent locks you with a powerful reapeating attack (Torturer, KC+Masquerade+Goons, ...) like it did for me in this game: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120124-191101-2fadf9dd.html

I used to be a Moat hater like you...then I took an arrow to the knee...I mean then I tried to use it wisely and found out it is good...
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2012, 08:18:57 am »
0

Adventurer - Without other strong terminals on board, Adventurer is good. When you have e.g. Gold, Gold, Silver, Silver and 7 Coppers - Adventurer is stronger than Gold. That is of course still bad, but not worse!

There are a few issues with this analysis. Firstly, this situation makes Adventurer better than Gold by such a small margin that it's virtually ignorable - an average of $3.09 to $3. Better, but the difference is so small it'll hardly matter. Second, there being no other worthwhile terminal on the board (even assuming costing $5 or less) is unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. Third, by the time you have 2 Gold and 2 Silver, chances are you're going to want to green. So that $6 is probably a mistake spent on an Adventurer, or a Gold. Actually, 2 Silver 2 Gold is an unlikely situation. Something like 3 Silver 2 Gold or 4 Silver 1 Gold is more likely - in the first case, you're even more likely to be Greening. In the second, a Gold is just as good. Finally, as you're likely greening by the time Adventurer becomes worthwhile, the cycling is actually a detriment, holding it back even more.

In short, the situations it'll be good as a lone terminal are unlikely for various reasons, and when it is, it's barely better than Gold anyway.

I voted for Adventurer, by the way. It's not that I think it's a bad card, but it's the card who is least often worthwhile considering it's cost, and when it is, generally doesn't do much better than other cards at it's cost. Perhaps Platinum games with light trashing are the only case where it is can actually shine.

As for Transmute and Thief - Thief is pretty good in 4 player games, and okay in 3 play, reasonably often. Transmute is often totally worthless but occasionally is a very nice card.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
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Ozle

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #78 on: February 09, 2012, 08:43:24 am »
0

Using Moat to block any non-curse giving attack? Silly. Using Moat to block a cursing attack? Well, let's analyze this:

Until I block the attack, it is a useless +2 cards. But after the first block, I have a +2 cards inestead of -1 VP! That is great! I wouldn't bought it with 3/4 split (I want a Silver to buy that Witch myself) but anytime I would have 2$ Moat is the right choice.

Moat can be also usefull when your opponent locks you with a powerful reapeating attack (Torturer, KC+Masquerade+Goons, ...) like it did for me in this game: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120124-191101-2fadf9dd.html

I used to be a Moat hater like you...then I took an arrow to the knee...I mean then I tried to use it wisely and found out it is good...

How dare you counter my irrational hatred with your logic and reason!!

But you also seem to say that you only buy it when there is no other option at $2

I looked at that log and in my completely unexpert opinion, I think you would have won that game quicker if there was a better $2, or you opened 4/3.

But alas, you were forced into buying a terrible moat and got lucky with it. And the last 2 you bought I still cannot see the reason for, you were so far ahead I didnt think you would get much chance of playing them.

I think its just personally I prefer positive action and making my deck stronger rather than reacting to opponents deck.
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mnavratil

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #79 on: February 09, 2012, 09:53:10 am »
0

Moat is also a card that scales much better with more players. Having a moat in hand in 4-player can mean not taking 3 of the curses. I believe there was some analysis done on this, and from 4th position I think people found it better to go for a moat defensive strategy than a cursing strategy with witch.
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Ozle

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #80 on: February 09, 2012, 09:56:12 am »
0

Moat is also a card that scales much better with more players. Having a moat in hand in 4-player can mean not taking 3 of the curses. I believe there was some analysis done on this, and from 4th position I think people found it better to go for a moat defensive strategy than a cursing strategy with witch.

There you people go again, with your sound reasoning! haha

(yeah, we play quite a bit 4 player at home and not having a moat definately stings sometimes!)

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DrHades

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #81 on: February 09, 2012, 10:08:14 am »
0

Adventurer - Without other strong terminals on board, Adventurer is good. When you have e.g. Gold, Gold, Silver, Silver and 7 Coppers - Adventurer is stronger than Gold. That is of course still bad, but not worse!

There are a few issues with this analysis. Firstly, this situation makes Adventurer better than Gold by such a small margin that it's virtually ignorable - an average of $3.09 to $3. Better, but the difference is so small it'll hardly matter. Second, there being no other worthwhile terminal on the board (even assuming costing $5 or less) is unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. Third, by the time you have 2 Gold and 2 Silver, chances are you're going to want to green. So that $6 is probably a mistake spent on an Adventurer, or a Gold. Actually, 2 Silver 2 Gold is an unlikely situation. Something like 3 Silver 2 Gold or 4 Silver 1 Gold is more likely - in the first case, you're even more likely to be Greening. In the second, a Gold is just as good. Finally, as you're likely greening by the time Adventurer becomes worthwhile, the cycling is actually a detriment, holding it back even more.

In short, the situations it'll be good as a lone terminal are unlikely for various reasons, and when it is, it's barely better than Gold anyway.

I voted for Adventurer, by the way. It's not that I think it's a bad card, but it's the card who is least often worthwhile considering it's cost, and when it is, generally doesn't do much better than other cards at it's cost. Perhaps Platinum games with light trashing are the only case where it is can actually shine.

As for Transmute and Thief - Thief is pretty good in 4 player games, and okay in 3 play, reasonably often. Transmute is often totally worthless but occasionally is a very nice card.
Of course there are few issues, I wasn't trying to evaluate the Adventurer, I just put the main reason why I think it doesn't belong between the 2 worst cards in the game. Yes, the difference of 0.09 isn't big. But the difference that it can sometimes give you 5$ is something very good. 1 great hand is better than 2 mediacore. Also coppertrashing, heavycursing and Platinum can boost Adventurer. It is a bad card, of course it is! But Thief is good only as a hope and Transmute is good only very very rarely (another potion card+no other trahsing+spare actions).

But ok, I was maybe too strong. Adventurer can also be a reasonable choice. But I honestly think, that everyone who says a card is weaker than all of these three is strongly underestimate that card...
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DrHades

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #82 on: February 09, 2012, 10:26:38 am »
0

Using Moat to block any non-curse giving attack? Silly. Using Moat to block a cursing attack? Well, let's analyze this:

Until I block the attack, it is a useless +2 cards. But after the first block, I have a +2 cards inestead of -1 VP! That is great! I wouldn't bought it with 3/4 split (I want a Silver to buy that Witch myself) but anytime I would have 2$ Moat is the right choice.

Moat can be also usefull when your opponent locks you with a powerful reapeating attack (Torturer, KC+Masquerade+Goons, ...) like it did for me in this game: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120124-191101-2fadf9dd.html

I used to be a Moat hater like you...then I took an arrow to the knee...I mean then I tried to use it wisely and found out it is good...

How dare you counter my irrational hatred with your logic and reason!!

But you also seem to say that you only buy it when there is no other option at $2

I looked at that log and in my completely unexpert opinion, I think you would have won that game quicker if there was a better $2, or you opened 4/3.

But alas, you were forced into buying a terrible moat and got lucky with it. And the last 2 you bought I still cannot see the reason for, you were so far ahead I didnt think you would get much chance of playing them.

I think its just personally I prefer positive action and making my deck stronger rather than reacting to opponents deck.
The game is more of an example of interesting use of Moat.

I didn't say ANYTHING about other 2$s, I was comparing it to Silver ;) But on boards with cursers I would choose it over:
Almost always - Pearl Diver, Secret Chamber, Duchess, Haven, Fool's Gold, Courtyard, Herbalist, Embargo, Pawn
Mostly - Hamlet, Cellar, Native village, Crossroads
Almost never - Chapel, Lighthouse
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Ozle

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2012, 10:34:22 am »
0

Ohh, I hate it so much I'd rather buy an Estate! hehe
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mnavratil

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2012, 10:42:04 am »
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But the difference that it can sometimes give you 5$ is something very good.

It could also sometimes give you $2, which is very bad.

As mentioned before, the presence of Venture at $5 just makes Adventurer so comparatively weak. It is a "gauranteed" Silver that doesn't take an action to play. Most times Adventurer is strong, Venture is stronger, AND (this is the big one) venture costs $1 less.

I just have never been in the situation that my deck has all of the right ingredients to make Adventurer a good card. Or thought ot myself, I wish I had an Adventurer here.
In practical play, Gold just seems to be the better buy, which is unfortunate because I like concept of Adventurer, just not the price.
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jimjam

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2012, 01:11:43 pm »
0

I voted Adventurer. Yeah, the other cards are bad, but to me, Adventurer does not even exist. It's like, sometimes I wonder, hey, why are there only 9 kingdom piles, I should go submit a bug report.
At least Transmute is some fun in the Puzzle section. And there's probably been a couple games where somebody destroyed the match with Scrying Pool, Transmute and Duke.
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #86 on: February 09, 2012, 01:28:29 pm »
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But the difference that it can sometimes give you 5$ is something very good.

It could also sometimes give you $2, which is very bad.


Except it's really not. the random +5$ is much more likely to give you a province than the +2$ is to deny you one.
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mnavratil

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2012, 02:16:54 pm »
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Just saying I don't want to pay $6 for a what can amount to a terminal silver.

And I think jimjam has it about right, adventurer is just ignorable.

Can someone even think of an example kingdom where adventurer is a dominant, must buy card? I voted for transmute, but this discussion has me maybe reconsidering.
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2012, 02:22:59 pm »
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Can someone even think of an example kingdom where adventurer is a dominant, must buy card? I voted for transmute, but this discussion has me maybe reconsidering.

I'm willing to claim that, like many of the cards this community rates poorly, Adventurer is a better card the more players there are in a game.
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mnavratil

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #89 on: February 09, 2012, 02:37:24 pm »
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I'm willing to claim that, like many of the cards this community rates poorly, Adventurer is a better card the more players there are in a game.

How do you figure? It only interacts with your own deck, unlike Thief or Moat which interact with what other people have in their decks.

EDIT: Perhaps you are saying the sifting it provides is a better boon the more people are sending you curses?
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #90 on: February 09, 2012, 02:50:40 pm »
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I'm willing to claim that, like many of the cards this community rates poorly, Adventurer is a better card the more players there are in a game.

How do you figure? It only interacts with your own deck, unlike Thief or Moat which interact with what other people have in their decks.

EDIT: Perhaps you are saying the sifting it provides is a better boon the more people are sending you curses?

I'm not sure I agree with the poster, but its also possible that they are suggesting that the additional variance (may draw anywhere from 2 to 6 coin) may be of use in a 4 player game

This would be similar to trying for unassisted treasure maps (@ ~30% probability of working during 3rd pass through deck) is a terrible idea in 2 player, where your starting win% is 50%, but not an outright horrendous idea in a 4player game where your expected win % is 25%. Note - this analysis only works if you only care about winning 1st place.  If you want to maximize your average placement, then straight play is still the way.

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #91 on: February 09, 2012, 02:55:42 pm »
+1

Just saying I don't want to pay $6 for a what can amount to a terminal silver.

And I think jimjam has it about right, adventurer is just ignorable.

Can someone even think of an example kingdom where adventurer is a dominant, must buy card? I voted for transmute, but this discussion has me maybe reconsidering.
Village
Tunnel
Walled Village
Spice Merchant
Worker's Village
Farming Village
Throne Room
Border Village
Adventurer
King's Court
Platinum + Colony

It's not that hard....

GendoIkari

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #92 on: February 09, 2012, 02:59:14 pm »
0

Just saying I don't want to pay $6 for a what can amount to a terminal silver.

And I think jimjam has it about right, adventurer is just ignorable.

Can someone even think of an example kingdom where adventurer is a dominant, must buy card? I voted for transmute, but this discussion has me maybe reconsidering.
Village
Tunnel
Walled Village
Spice Merchant
Worker's Village
Farming Village
Throne Room
Border Village
Adventurer
King's Court
Platinum + Colony

It's not that hard....

Is there a reason for Border Village? When would you buy it with $6 instead of Adventurer? Also, I might put Hoard in there, even though it is another $6.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #93 on: February 09, 2012, 03:06:26 pm »
0

Just saying I don't want to pay $6 for a what can amount to a terminal silver.

And I think jimjam has it about right, adventurer is just ignorable.

Can someone even think of an example kingdom where adventurer is a dominant, must buy card? I voted for transmute, but this discussion has me maybe reconsidering.
Village
Tunnel
Walled Village
Spice Merchant
Worker's Village
Farming Village
Throne Room
Border Village
Adventurer
King's Court
Platinum + Colony

It's not that hard....

Is there a reason for Border Village? When would you buy it with $6 instead of Adventurer? Also, I might put Hoard in there, even though it is another $6.
No, I mean, there's lot of changes you can make and still have adventurer be dominant. This is just what flew off the top of my head.

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #94 on: February 09, 2012, 04:37:13 pm »
0

Quote
Using Moat to block any non-curse giving attack? Silly. Using Moat to block a cursing attack? Well, let's analyze this:

If I'm going BM and my opponent buys a Militia, I'm absolutely taking Moat over Smithy. Just sayin'
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mnavratil

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2012, 05:02:01 pm »
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If I'm going BM and my opponent buys a Militia, I'm absolutely taking Moat over Smithy. Just sayin'

Which will make you lose about 10% more games. This situation is easy to simulate. Smithy is much better.

No, I mean, there's lot of changes you can make and still have adventurer be dominant. This is just what flew off the top of my head.

Okay, fair enough, Adventurer is stronger in colony games, and with copper trashing present; especially with +buy and KC. But even when it shines, there is usually (and you did prove me wrong with your sample kingdom) another card present that takes priority. And this card is many times just plain boring Gold.

Adventurer just seems stuck in this weird place where what it does is actually good, but it is just so cost inneffective that it makes it not a good card. As opposed to actually being bad for your deck like some other cards on the list.

P.S. Reading some of these sample games/uses for bad cards has actually been very enlightening and made me re-think my views on some of them, so thanks.
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2012, 05:10:58 pm »
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If I'm going BM and my opponent buys a Militia, I'm absolutely taking Moat over Smithy. Just sayin'

Which will make you lose about 10% more games. This situation is easy to simulate. Smithy is much better.

Far be it from me to doubt the simulators, but I don't get it. The Moat draws one fewer card, but allows me to keep two additional cards. So my hand after I get militia'd and a play a Smithy is 5 cards, whereas my hand after I don't get militia'd and play a Moat is 6 cards.
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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2012, 05:13:20 pm »
+1

If I'm going BM and my opponent buys a Militia, I'm absolutely taking Moat over Smithy. Just sayin'

Which will make you lose about 10% more games. This situation is easy to simulate. Smithy is much better.

Far be it from me to doubt the simulators, but I don't get it. The Moat draws one fewer card, but allows me to keep two additional cards. So my hand after I get militia'd and a play a Smithy is 5 cards, whereas my hand after I don't get militia'd and play a Moat is 6 cards.
If you can arrange to have the moats every time exactly when you get militia'd. But also, you get to pick the two cards you discard, so they tend to be worth a lot less.

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2012, 05:56:47 pm »
+1

I'm not sure I agree with the poster, but its also possible that they are suggesting that the additional variance (may draw anywhere from 2 to 6 coin) may be of use in a 4 player game

While this is true, it's not something I had considered.

I'm willing to claim that, like many of the cards this community rates poorly, Adventurer is a better card the more players there are in a game.

How do you figure? It only interacts with your own deck, unlike Thief or Moat which interact with what other people have in their decks.

EDIT: Perhaps you are saying the sifting it provides is a better boon the more people are sending you curses?

This is one of the reasons, yes, but it goes beyond that. I'll explain in detail, but bear in mind that a lot of this is theory, since I haven't played that many 3 or 4 player games with Adventurer.

First of all, Adventuer works better in a big money deck than it does in an engine deck. After all, if you're playing an engine deck, you'd generally prefer to draw your engine components (so that you can draw your entire deck) rather than digging past them to get to your Treasures. Lots of engine decks don't need Treasures in general. The more players in a game, the less practical an engine deck becomes because there are more players contending for those engine cards. When big money is more practical, Adventuer becomes more desirable.

It's interesting that you mention Moat, since Adventurer is valuable in multiplayer for many of the same reasons. The two cards are comparable in many ways. They both draw two cards when played, for instance. But beyond that, Adventurer is a sort of defense against many of the game's attacks. Moat is worthwhile in multiplayer games because the more players there are, the higher the likelihood that one of those players is going to play an Attack card while you have a Moat in hand. A similar principle applies to Adventurer. Let's talk about each of the major types of attacks: discarding, mucking, junking, and trashing.

Adventurer is terrible against trashing attacks (Swindler, Saboteur, Thief, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand), so let's get that out of the way first. Thief, Pirate Ship, and Noble Brigand trash the Treasures that Adventurer needs to function. I'm not confident talking about how Adventurer deals with Swindler and Saboteur, but I'm guessing it doesn't help as much as Gold.

On the flip side, Adventurer is a hard counter against deck-mucking attacks. It pretty much eliminates the damage from Bureaucrat, Rabble, and Fortune Teller. It can severely mitigate the damage from Ghost Ship, Sea Hag, Oracle, and, depending on your deck's Copper content, Spy and Scrying Pool. Even when Adventurer is only pulling $3 on average, it may be a worthy purchase over Gold when it can completely blow past crap that's been left on top of your deck.

If crap hasn't been left on your deck, Adventurer has to have a pretty good chance of pulling at least $4 in order to be a better deal than Gold. I argue that this is more likely to be the case in multiplayer games with heavy discarding and cursing.

Let's look at discard attacks. If Militia is being played against you nearly every turn (which is pretty common in multiplayer), you're going to have a lot of $3 and $4 hands. Often, that equates to a lot of Silver coming into your deck. The problem is, the more Silver that you pump into your deck while you try to get up to $6, the harder it's going to eventually be to put together 3-card hands that can buy a Province. Adventurer puts those Silvers to work for you. A hand of Silver/Silver/Adventurer is easier to pull off than a hand of Silver/Gold/Gold. Now I'll admit that those 7 Coppers you start with can put a severe kink into this plan, but if you can trash enough of them (with, for example, Moneylender), or gain Silver fast enough (with, for example, Bureaucrat), or both (with, for example, Mine), then I'll bet you can make this work.

Finally, let's look at junking attacks. If the attacks are giving you Copper, then Adventurer is a bad purchase. However, if they're giving you Curses, then Adventurer can be useful for many of the same reasons it's useful against discarding attacks. It's even better, though, because in the absence of good Curse-trashing cards, flooding your deck with Silver is often a good idea anyhow (after you've given out your share of Curses, that is).
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jimjam

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Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2012, 05:57:50 pm »
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So what's your guy's favorite card here? Mine would be Explorer. Apprentice/Explorer is pretty neat, for one. And it's like the Tournament before Tournament existed.
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