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Author Topic: Overlord as BoM while it is in the trash (using Throne Room or similar cards)  (Read 462 times)

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Watno

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Related question: if I Throne Room an Overlord, picking, say, Embargo as the first emulation, trashing Overlord, then picking Band of Misfits as the second emulation, can I then emulate Engineer?  Since Band of Misfits says "play this as if it were an Action ... costing less than this", but Overlord is now in the trash, and not in play, thus doesn't turn into Band of Misfits, and thus still costs ?  This was brought up in a puzzle, and I'm not sure if it's correct or not.  Currently, Dominion Online implements it as you can emulate a card costing less than Band of Misfits, not Overlord.

Another possible outcome i see is that when you play Overlord/BoM as something while it is in the trash, you execute it as if it were that card, and it stays that card forever, (since it doesn't "leave play" after that, due to it not being "in play" in the first place).
Continuing this line of interpretation, can you then gain the "Overlord" from the trash with it still being the card it emulated? It still hasn't left play after all.

EDIT: Thinking about it a bit, it makes way more sense to interpret "until it leaves play" as "while it is in play", since my reading would lead to unsolvable tracking issues
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 08:36:33 am by Watno »
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GendoIkari

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The "until it leaves play" part I think is already known just by the rulings on things like Throne Room BoM without any Overload interactions. If you Throne Room a BoM, and choose a Feast, then it has been ruled (more recently), that when BoM-Feast gets trashed, it reverts to BoM so you can choose anything else. At that point, whatever you choose, you get to play it for the effects, but it never gets into play, so BoM stops being it the same moment it becomes it.

The only difference here is that we care about cost. I think "costing less than this" must be "costing less than this currently costs", so...

-Play Throne Room, choose Overlord.
--Play Overlord first time
---Choose Feast
---Play Overlord as Feast
---Gain a card, trash Overlord (Overlord cost briefly becomes and then goes back to
--Play Overlord second time
---Choose Band of Misfits
---Play Overlord as Band of Misfits
---Choose a card costing less than this (this is the card you are playing, it costs
---You can choose any card costing only and no , with a debt cost less than .
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allanfieldhouse

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The ruling really hinges on whether something that isn't in play counts as having "left play" even if it was never in play in the first place.
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GendoIkari

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The ruling really hinges on whether something that isn't in play counts as having "left play" even if it was never in play in the first place.

I believe it has to, because otherwise you would indeed have a Throne-BoM-as-Feast remain whatever it was chosen as the second time forever.
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werothegreat

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The ruling really hinges on whether something that isn't in play counts as having "left play" even if it was never in play in the first place.

I believe it has to, because otherwise you would indeed have a Throne-BoM-as-Feast remain whatever it was chosen as the second time forever.

I think that's what was happening when I tried this on Dominion Online.  It wouldn't let me pick Engineer, so I picked Lurker to gain the Overlord back out of the trash, and when it came back around to be played, it tried to play itself as a Band of Misfits as a Lurker, but never left my hand.
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Jeebus

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GendoIkari has it right. It's been ruled that when you play BoM in the trash, you choose a card and do the on-play ability, but BoM never becomes the chosen card.

So in this case, going by Procession/BoM/Fortress (from the Dark Ages rulebook), the Overlord never becomes BoM, but you do the on-play ability of choosing a cheaper card than it, meaning cheaper than 8 Debt, and playing that card.

This means that Shuffle IT has not implemented something correctly, maybe properties on cards that change (when they leave play or stop being yours). I wonder if Procession/BoM/Fortress lets you gain a card costing $5. If yes, it looks like the problem is with BoM/Overlord; hopefully they didn't special-case the code.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 02:57:10 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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The ruling really hinges on whether something that isn't in play counts as having "left play" even if it was never in play in the first place.

I believe it has to, because otherwise you would indeed have a Throne-BoM-as-Feast remain whatever it was chosen as the second time forever.

I think that's what was happening when I tried this on Dominion Online.  It wouldn't let me pick Engineer, so I picked Lurker to gain the Overlord back out of the trash, and when it came back around to be played, it tried to play itself as a Band of Misfits as a Lurker, but never left my hand.

Yeah, you could do some weird stuff with this.

1. Throne-BoM-as-Feast-then-Great Hall.
2. Lurker to get BoM back.
3. BoM remains a Great Hall, you ever get the VP for it.

Interestingly, my Temporum client had pretty much the same bug; can't remember if I actually fixed it or not since it was so rare to matter...

Go to Age of Cybernetics and play a card as Investments. The card becomes Investments within the code, when you discard it, it stays the card it became. So if you draw so much you reshuffle, and draw the card you played, it will still be Investments.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 03:40:21 pm by GendoIkari »
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werothegreat

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Given the nature of the game, surely anything like Band of Misfits should not permanently remain something, since there's no way to tell which is which once it's in your deck.  Inheritance has to set aside a card to remind you, and that's for all your Estates, not just one of them.
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GendoIkari

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Given the nature of the game, surely anything like Band of Misfits should not permanently remain something, since there's no way to tell which is which once it's in your deck.  Inheritance has to set aside a card to remind you, and that's for all your Estates, not just one of them.

So if you use Band of Misfits as Caravan, and then the game ends that turn... rationally, it counts as a Band of Misfits during scoring. But why? Best guess is that there's a rule (probably unwritten) that any cards in play "leave play" when the game ends.
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Jeebus

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So if you use Band of Misfits as Caravan, and then the game ends that turn... rationally, it counts as a Band of Misfits during scoring. But why? Best guess is that there's a rule (probably unwritten) that any cards in play "leave play" when the game ends.

Yes, Donald recently ruled on exactly this.
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