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4est

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4est's Cards
« on: January 29, 2017, 06:40:21 pm »
+15

Hello friends!

I’ve been playing Dominion online and IRL for a few years now and only in the last few months have I started getting more involved with f.ds discussions and tournaments and such.  It’s an awesome community (one of the most friendly and respectful I’ve seen on the internet) and I’ve been learning a ton by reading and posting and playing.  And now, I’m trying my hand at a small fan expansion!

Currently, it’s 17 cards, that loosely revolve around the theme of discarding for benefit and cycling cards that either like or can create small hand-sizes.  I kept them simple—no durations, tokens, reserves, debt, potions, travellers and such.  All have gone through some playtesting, but I'm continuing to playtest and modify as I go. 

I’d love to get feedback from the community—do certain cards seem too strong or too weak, does wording need to be more clear, do certain mechanics need reworking, etc.  I appreciate your help!  Please post comments below.

Thanks!

4est



Kingdom Cards:





Individual Cards:



I’ve discovered a new planet—I mean, card-shaped thing!  I wanted a cheap Vagrant/Patrician that prefers variety.  The first version of Astronomer was effectively a mini-Hunting Party, but that immediately proved to be too strong in play testing—way too easy for them to just be $2 Labs.  This revised version checks another player's hand instead.





Unlike most of my cards which started with a card idea or mechanic, and got names and images later, Brewery started with the name and image.  Emulating the drunk monk, I wanted a weird hand-discarder like Minion that works out for you in the end.  You can keep your best 2 cards, or if your cards suck, discard them all and draw 3 more, to go with your extra actions and coins.





Carnival’s “travel between players” mechanic is inspired by Last Footnote’s Wanderer and Asper’s Pilgrim, but instead of a draw card, Carnival provides some nice payload.  It’s great for hitting $5 and $6 in the early game, and higher price points later, and players are never sad to have one passed to them.  Another key difference is that taking the coins and passing to your opponent is optional—you can always play it just for the non-terminal buy and cash out at another time (or try to amass a few Carnivals for a big turn later).





My Butcher variant that uses discarding instead of Coin tokens for Remodeling.  Early on, it also drew a card, but this made it just a bit too easy to gain cards costing $4 more, so the +1 Card was removed. 





It’s a giant Workshop!  Gainers that can gain that many cards per play are always risky designs, but the differently named clause prevents it from piledriving, and on many boards, you end up taking stuff you don’t necessarily need.  Also, for each card you gain, you can discard something else to topdeck it, a handy little bonus. 





Falconer is a cheap Band of Misfits variant that offers you a choice when you play it: a simple cantrip, or play it as the worst Action card in your opponent's hand.  Sometimes what they reveal just doesn’t work, but hey that’s okay, Falconer can never hurt you.  But sometimes, their worst card is still a winner.  Late game, it can become a tactical puzzle for your opponent on which of their good actions to reveal that will help you the least. 





Market is a nice card, but sometimes it feels sad to pay $5 and not use all the +Buys or Coin.  Introducing Fish Market, where you can build your own Market!  Need a Village?  Just discard a card.  Need +Buy?  Just discard a card.  Need Coin?  You know what to do.  Don’t need any of those?  Then just draw a card.  Need an actual Market?  Well you probably should have just bought one of those then.  It’s the flexibility you’re paying for in Fish Market. 





It's a Smithy with a neat discard effect.  It does suffer from the Harbinger effect—you’re sad when your discard is empty, but when it’s not, trading out the worst card in your hand for the best card in your discard pile is a sweet deal.   





My attempt at a fast Big Money enabler.  Also a lesson in basic personal finance: I can spend all my money now, invest a little in a short term return next turn, or invest a lot in a long term return next shuffle.  If only it was this simple in real life..





Marshal is a cantrip discard attack like Urchin, but multiples can bring your opponent down to 3 cards in hand (like Soldier).  Sometimes you don't mind getting hit by two Marshals though, since it sort of counters other Marshals by giving you a nice bonus with a small handsize. 





A cheap village that gives you a choice of what to do with the top card of your deck.  It can offer +Buy with a little sifting, light trashing, or a draw and discard--all useful things, but the randomness makes the card play a little bit differently each time. 





Another Draw-to-X style card, this time in Peddler form.  The fewer cards you have in hand, the better Poet gets.  With five or more, it’s a nonterminal Copper: okay, not so great.  But it has the potential to draw two, three, even four cards.  Good thing you’ve been playing all those discard for benefit cards!





The curser for this set, Rebellion provides a nice chunk of terminal coin for each set of duplicate cards in your hand.  The attack gives a Torturer-like Curse or discard choice for hands with duplicate cards, but can be countered by hands with no duplicates.  Rebellions need like-minded people working together in order to succeed.   





I wanted both a trasher and gainer in the expansion, and then I had the idea: why not make a card that does both?  Smelter is flexible, trashing like Steward or gaining like Workshop, and if you’re feeling adventurous, you can do both, but then your opponents get to trash too.  Better make it worth it!





Playing Treasures from your hand is so old school.  Nowadays we just discard them instead!  Introducing Trinket, the Treasure you can’t wait to discard!  On play, it’s just a nonterminal Herbalist, but you can also play it on your next Buy phase by discarding it.  Anything Tunnel likes, Trinket likes too.





Similar to Watchtower in its versatility, Undertaker has lots of neat reaction tricks up its sleeve.  It can turn sifters into trashers (including other Undertakers), it can defend against trashing attacks and make discard attacks actually helpful, it can turn trash-for-benefits like Apprentice into crazy discard-for-benefits instead, etc.  I’ve tried a bunch of different things for the top, and settled on a terminal Forum for now, but I’m still testing other options as well.   





The first version of Water Wheel had 2VP and could be discarded from your hand at the start of your turn for a bonus but it proved to be confusing, overpowered, and could lead to weird discarding loops.  So it was scrapped and replaced with this version, still with 2VP but now a Scheme-like on-buy effect.  Basically, you can discard whatever cards you have left in your hand to Scheme that many cards you have in play (including Treasures) to use next turn.  With just a few discards, you can set up an ideal next hand.  It’s pricey though, and only worth it if you actually have some cards left in your hand when you buy it, otherwise you just spent $6 for 2VP.  And of course, once it’s in your deck, Water Wheel is a dead card—and another prime target for discarding when you buy another one.



Outtakes:


 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 03:24:38 pm by 4est »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2017, 08:00:54 pm »
+1

Some fun ideas! More later. :)
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2017, 11:16:38 am »
+2

I don't want this to sound like shameless andvertising, but I highly suggest you look through my All the Fan Cards You Could Ever Need thread (click the link in my signature). Several of the cards seem simmilar to official or fan cards.

Falconer, look at Kru5h's Hounds. Different, but I like his version better.
Investor, see DBnator's Offertory. This is a stretch, but yours is pretty boring.
Peasant Village, see Ben King's Ghost Town (or MattLee's for that matter). It's usually a boring card, and of the other 2 I mentioned I think yours is the least interesting.
Trinket, see eHalcyon's Crystal Ball, way more interesting.

All in all most of the cards just aren't interesting. You can still use them, heck most look pretty balanced. But I still think a lot of them are boring that I would probably playtest a more interesting card over them: Carpenter, Falconer, Investor, Marshal, Fish Market, Peasant Village, Rebellion, Trinket. That said, Astronomer, Brewery, Poet, and Smelter look pretty interesting. I'd like to play with them.

Balancing wise, some could use some help IMO.
Cryptex looks really swingy and annoying, Wishing Well is already kinda disliked, and this seems worse.
Astronomer seems really bad. I'm surprised it's too good without the other player revealing their hand. I'd like it if it was just your opponent's hand.
Watermill is wayyyy underpriced, it's usually either a Lab or a Silver, and you get 2 VP, for 5? Could cost 7 and still be strong I think. Should be a Reaction.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2017, 02:59:28 am »
0

I think Cryptex would be fine if it didn't have the discard a card penalty for guessing wrong.
Waterwheel would probably be fine at $6. (@Theta, it's only a lab or silver if you start with it in your hand.)

Trinket is fine. It is very similar to eHalcyon's Crystal Ball, but I don't think Trinket is less interesting at all. Trinket might even be better balanced, because Crystal Ball seemed very strong in the games I've used it in.

I agree with Theta about Invester, Peasant Village, Rebellion, and Marshall.
Marshall is just a slightly stronger Militia with the drawback of discarding a card. It's not different enough to be worth the complexity. Similarly, Granary is too wordy and tries to do too many different things.

Fish Market looks neat, but I think discarding one card is enough of a drawback. It seems weak when you have to discard two.

My favorites are Brewery and Carpenter. Almost favorites which could become favorites with tweaks and/or playtesting: Cryptex and Smelter. Smelter seems like it might be too strong. Allowing other players to trash a card doesn't seem like as much of a drawback when there's obviously strong trashing on the board already with Smelter. It's comparable to Remake (which is the #1 strongest $4 cost card in Qvist's ranking).
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 03:08:04 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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weety4

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 05:09:21 am »
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Kinda nice to see a first post of actually tested fan cards (instead of just ideas that only sometimes get tested and revised). They all look very balanced.
While I agree with Theta that the discard mechanics of most of them is not that interesting not all fan cards can be wild and innovative.

About Water Wheel, I think that this would be too expensive at 6$. If there is a Lab (variant) in the Kingdom it is much safer to go for that then for a card which is only a Lab during the start of the turn. Now of course you could still chain them: if you discard a Water Wheel and draw another one it is still the start of your turn so you could again discard a Water Wheel for 2 cards and so on. But it is still riskier than a normal Lab and those 2 VPs might not make up for that risk.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 05:10:48 am by weety4 »
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weety4

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2017, 05:10:58 am »
0

Kinda nice to see a first post of actually tested fan cards (instead of just ideas that only sometimes get tested and revised). They all look very balanced.
While I agree with Theta that the discard mechanics of most of them is not that interesting not all fan cards can be wild and innovative.

About Water Wheel, I think that this would be too expensive at 6$. If there is a Lab (variant) in the Kingdom it is much safer to go for that then for a card which is only a Lab during the start of the turn. Now of course you could still chain them: if you discard a Water Wheel and draw another one it is still the start of your turn so you could again discard a Water Wheel for 2 cards and so on. But it is still riskier than a normal Lab and those 2 VPs might not make up for that risk.
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Asper

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 08:07:41 am »
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Waterwheel would probably be fine at $6. (@Theta, it's only a lab or silver if you start with it in your hand.)
That's technically true, but only matters if you are buying sufficiently many drawing nonterminals (or terminal draw $ non-drawing villages). If you don't, there is no observable difference between Watermill and Lab. And as a Lab that also provides VP seems like a strategy in and on itself, this doesn't appear to be a bad thing to go for, either. Even though it's not strictly better than Harem, I believe it's still a monolithic path to victory for 6$.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 08:27:16 am by Asper »
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 08:32:32 am »
+2

Thanks guys for the comments thus far--especially Theta and LibraryAdventurer--super helpful stuff! 

I'm currently working to make slight revisions to Peasant Village, Falconer, Investor, Marshal, and Rebellion which I'll agree are all currently a bit vanilla.  I've got a few ideas which I think will add a bit of complexity and unique flavor to each card without becoming overly complex or overpowered.  I'll of course need to playtest revisions before posting updates (my playtesting schedule is currently somewhat determined by how much Dominion my incredibly patient wife is willing to play with me every evening haha). 

I like the idea of maybe trying Cryptex without the discard penalty.  I played a game the other day where that part got a bit annoying--will need to make sure it's not too strong without that.  And yeah, Astronomer needs more playtesting to figure out how much revealing (just my hand, just another player's, or both) will make the card sometimes a Lab (like Vagrant or Patrician), but not like all the time. 

On Water Wheel, that was the last card I made and has thus gotten far less play testing than some of the other cards.  Thanks LibraryAdventurer for pointing out that, yes, it's only a Lab or Silver if it's in your hand at the start of your turn.  But reading the comments and looking at it some more, I'm realizing some potential problems with this mechanic--for example, if your deck is small enough, you could theoretically discard and draw the same WW over and over which is weird (albeit usually pointless).  Gonna go back to the drawing board on this one too. 

Thanks again for the comments thus far, my friends!  Will start posting updated cards in the OP when I have time.  Please keep posting any other observations on the cards--I really appreciate the help!
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herw

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2017, 09:04:47 am »
+1

Hello friends!
[...]


The last card I made.  Water Wheel is one point less than Duchy for the same price, but it gives a nifty bonus (that doesn’t use up an action) anytime you start your turn with one in hand.  It’s not an Action card, so if you draw it later in your turn, it’s just a plain old Victory card, but it might possibly need Reaction-typing.  For now, it just has the Victory type, but I’d be curious to hear what others think.

hmm - what will happen if i have more than one water wheel on hand? Am i allowed to play again a water wheel?
If so, i wouldn't like it, because there is a pre-action phase now.
I think it would be better to give in addition +1 action and set the card to Action-Victory.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 09:30:45 am by herw »
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Asper

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2017, 10:12:56 am »
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Yes, herw, and as "the start of your turn" isn't over after drawing, you can discard any number, including those you just drew. Therefore, you can chain Water Wheels arbitrarily and still have an Action left for your Mountebank, making them Lab+ in such decks.
But 4est already decided to re-do it, so, let's see  what comes next.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 10:17:27 am by Asper »
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herw

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2017, 11:34:06 am »
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Yes, herw, and as "the start of your turn" isn't over after drawing, you can discard any number, including those you just drew. Therefore, you can chain Water Wheels arbitrarily and still have an Action left for your Mountebank, making them Lab+ in such decks.
But 4est already decided to re-do it, so, let's see  what comes next.
are there similar cards?
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2017, 11:53:45 am »
0

Fish Market looks neat, but I think discarding one card is enough of a drawback. It seems weak when you have to discard two.

I still need to test this, but just wanted to throw an idea out there: perhaps changing the "Do this twice" clause to "You may do this once or twice" on Fish Market might strengthen it a bit.  That way, if you're satisfied after discarding once, it doesn't force you to discard again (Heck, you could not discard at all if you really wanted, but then you just paid $5 for a cantrip).  Not a super exciting revision, but it seems like this minor change would maximize Fish Market's main theme, its flexibility, without making it overpowered.  Thoughts?
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Asper

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2017, 12:20:31 pm »
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Yes, herw, and as "the start of your turn" isn't over after drawing, you can discard any number, including those you just drew. Therefore, you can chain Water Wheels arbitrarily and still have an Action left for your Mountebank, making them Lab+ in such decks.
But 4est already decided to re-do it, so, let's see  what comes next.
are there similar cards?
Well, all cards that trigger at the start of your turn. For example, you can first trash a card with Ratcatcher, then discard your hand and draw a new one for Guide, draw 3 for your Prince'd Smithy, then return Horse Traders to your hand, then draw yet another card to last turn's Caravan, and finally call your second and third Ratcatcher to trash 2 more of the cards you drew. They all have the same timing, and therefore you can do them all in any order. Water Wheels would fit anywhere in this.
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herw

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2017, 03:19:32 pm »
0

Fish Market looks neat, but I think discarding one card is enough of a drawback. It seems weak when you have to discard two.

I still need to test this, but just wanted to throw an idea out there: perhaps changing the "Do this twice" clause to "You may do this once or twice" on Fish Market might strengthen it a bit.  That way, if you're satisfied after discarding once, it doesn't force you to discard again (Heck, you could not discard at all if you really wanted, but then you just paid $5 for a cantrip).  Not a super exciting revision, but it seems like this minor change would maximize Fish Market's main theme, its flexibility, without making it overpowered.  Thoughts?
the main idea (i am thinking about it too (see here) sorry it's german) to use dead cards with a new sense, means victory cards, curse cards f.i. is a change or better an upgrade of hand-cards.
The idea to change the use of duration-cards is nice. Because you can think about a strategy which is not depending on your temporary hand cards but your next moves.
There are two concepts of a duration strategy, normal duration cards (one more draw) and duration cards, which stay until the end of game.

The new idea here is to get a strategy to think forward!

An interesting discussion you find in the thread new mechanic - delay
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 03:41:15 pm by herw »
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gloures

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2017, 03:56:02 pm »
0

I quite like your cards, thought they were very interesting! ^^

Would just make a remark about one card, I thinkk Poet has the probability of being semi-useless in a lot of boards, specially if you add all the other expansions in the mix. I would consider adding an optional discard in the top, making it similar to Oasis with a 5 card hand, what do you think?


Edit: I´ll also add one thought about Criptex, I personally think it´s very high variance, for example, I think it´s an excellent opener, and just because if you   have it on your second hand in the second shuffle, it´s 100% guaranteed to work. Now consider a mirror where both players open Criptex, there´s a very high chance that if one player gets second hand Criptex while the other doesn´t, leads to a game that´s very much in favor of the player that had it´s Criptex activated.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 04:05:57 pm by gloures »
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2017, 05:11:15 pm »
+2

I quite like your cards, thought they were very interesting! ^^

Would just make a remark about one card, I thinkk Poet has the probability of being semi-useless in a lot of boards, specially if you add all the other expansions in the mix. I would consider adding an optional discard in the top, making it similar to Oasis with a 5 card hand, what do you think?


Edit: I´ll also add one thought about Criptex, I personally think it´s very high variance, for example, I think it´s an excellent opener, and just because if you   have it on your second hand in the second shuffle, it´s 100% guaranteed to work. Now consider a mirror where both players open Criptex, there´s a very high chance that if one player gets second hand Criptex while the other doesn´t, leads to a game that´s very much in favor of the player that had it´s Criptex activated.

Thanks gloures for the thoughts! 

Early on, I considered including some sort of discard effect with Poet, for the exact reason you suggested, but decided the card would be simpler and a bit more compelling without it.  Indeed, there will certainly be boards that are not as good for Poet than others, but all you need for Poet to "work" (aside from being hit by discard attacks) is to first play at least one card that doesn't increase or maintain your handsize--and there are lots of actions across all the expansions that either don't draw or even decrease handsize (Festival, Warehouse, Squire, Villa, Hamlet are just a few of many, many examples).  In fact, another Poet will do this--if your first one doesn't draw, any more consecutive Poets you play will.  I think Poet is a bit like Menagerie in this respect--neither are mindless drawing cards and both like a little bit of finesse to get the most out of them.  For now, I'm probably going to leave Poet as is and focus on revising some of the other cards.

As for Cryptex, like others have mentioned, it is indeed a swingy card, especially without enablers, which isn't great, but I'm continuing to try variations to see if I can find something that works a bit better.  I definitely agree with you about opening with Cryptex--it can certainly be easier to guess correctly depending on when you draw it. 

Thanks again, everyone for your comments, all very helpful!  Hoping to post revised versions of a few of the other cards later tonight or tomorrow once I can get a few more games in with them. 
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Asper

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2017, 11:30:26 pm »
0

A little thing: Smelter could just say "Trash up to two cards from your hand" instead of "You may trash one or two cards from your hand" to be a tad shorter. It seems balanced and nice to me.

Trinket is okay, but I'm not sure it's really that interesting to have Tunnel 2.

While it's nice that Rebellion is a Curser that isn't as dangerous at the beginning of the game (as shameless self-advertisement has already be done, compare "Snow Witch" from Co0kieL0rd and my "Seasons" expansion  ;) ), I'm not sure whether the fact that having Curses makes it harder to defend against it is that cool. But indeed, the early-game niceness is cute.

Peasant Village could probably just always give the buy to make being able to discard the top card always feel like a bonus.

Marshal... is another Militia. I'm not sure it's actually stronger, so the discarding/topdecking might be unneccessary...? Of course, taking it away will make the card feel even more like Militia. And then, being able to topdeck a card might just as well be a benefit. Like Militia, this becomes much worse when hit by an opponent's copy of the card before playing yours, but that's not a new phenomenon. Edit: Actually I can imagine this being one of the cases where the topdecking might work to your advantage.

Carpenter seems like it might make it much too easy to just gain Provinces without ever establishing an economy. You trash a Copper, discard 4, gain a Smithy. You trash a Smithy, discard 4, gain a Province, buy a Copper if needed. Repeat, and if necessary just trash Provinces for Provinces to end the game.

Astronomer: You could use the Gladiator method instead of having the opponent reveal their hand.

I think Falconer is fine without discarding a card. Sure, sometimes it'll make sure to draw your Knight or Cultist, but that's, well, a combo.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 11:33:39 pm by Asper »
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2017, 02:45:16 pm »
+1

A little thing: Smelter could just say "Trash up to two cards from your hand" instead of "You may trash one or two cards from your hand" to be a tad shorter. It seems balanced and nice to me.

Trinket is okay, but I'm not sure it's really that interesting to have Tunnel 2.

While it's nice that Rebellion is a Curser that isn't as dangerous at the beginning of the game (as shameless self-advertisement has already be done, compare "Snow Witch" from Co0kieL0rd and my "Seasons" expansion  ;) ), I'm not sure whether the fact that having Curses makes it harder to defend against it is that cool. But indeed, the early-game niceness is cute.

Peasant Village could probably just always give the buy to make being able to discard the top card always feel like a bonus.

Marshal... is another Militia. I'm not sure it's actually stronger, so the discarding/topdecking might be unneccessary...? Of course, taking it away will make the card feel even more like Militia. And then, being able to topdeck a card might just as well be a benefit. Like Militia, this becomes much worse when hit by an opponent's copy of the card before playing yours, but that's not a new phenomenon. Edit: Actually I can imagine this being one of the cases where the topdecking might work to your advantage.

Carpenter seems like it might make it much too easy to just gain Provinces without ever establishing an economy. You trash a Copper, discard 4, gain a Smithy. You trash a Smithy, discard 4, gain a Province, buy a Copper if needed. Repeat, and if necessary just trash Provinces for Provinces to end the game.

Astronomer: You could use the Gladiator method instead of having the opponent reveal their hand.

I think Falconer is fine without discarding a card. Sure, sometimes it'll make sure to draw your Knight or Cultist, but that's, well, a combo.

Thanks for your feedback Asper! 

For Smelter, I agree that "Trash up to two cards from your hand" is definitely cleaner than the current wording, though I worded it that way intentionally so to prevent other players from asking the annoying, pedantic question: hey you trashed zero cards (which is technically "up to two") and gained a card, which means you did "both" so I can trash a card now, right?  Of course that's not the intent--other players only get to trash if you trash and gain, but I just wanted to make sure the card was as clear as possible.  If it's pretty obvious that trashing zero cards doesn't "count" for "trash up to two cards," I can certainly use the cleaner wording.  What do you all think?

Yes, for Rebellion, I was indeed trying to create a curser that was strongest in the midgame, after Estates are gone but before players start greening.  Still working on revisions to this card to make it a bit more unique.

One of my earliest versions of Peasant Village did give the +Buy unconditionally, but I worried it was a tad strong when compared with Hamlet (which needs to discard two cards in order to get the +2 Actions and +1 Buy).  In any case, I have a revised version of Peasant Village just about finished in playtesting that I'll be posting today (along with a revised version of Investor). 

Marshal is undergoing revisions as well to make it slightly less of a Militia clone. The topdecking option was actually one of my favorite parts about the original card and will probably be retained in the updated version. 

I had not considered that sort of strategy with Carpenter, and now I'm curious how feasible it actually would be.  You'd have to make sure to connect your $4 cards with Carpenter, though once you get a few of them, it probably wouldn't be too difficult.  Will playtest and see if it's too monolithic.  If it is, the simplest fix might be to just remove the +1 Card, which should nerf that strategy pretty well since you'd usually only have three cards to discard instead of four.  Good catch. 

And I like the Gladiator idea for Astronomer.  Definitely simpler, though I'll admit a part of me is still intrigued by the opponent hand-revealing as it's unique among official cards (I believe Pillage is the only other card that allows you to view another player's hand during your turn) and it feels thematically appropriate (the Astronomer uses his astrolabe to see across the heavenly spheres into your opponent's hand!).  In any case, I'm still testing this one to identify what conditions for drawing the second card are most balanced.

I appreciate the thoughts--helpful as always!
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 03:05:21 pm »
0

With Watermill you can discard and draw them repeatedly. I can't see a practical use for this barring certain fan cards, but just thought I'd throw that out.
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Asper

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 03:27:34 pm »
+2

For Smelter, I agree that "Trash up to two cards from your hand" is definitely cleaner than the current wording, though I worded it that way intentionally so to prevent other players from asking the annoying, pedantic question: hey you trashed zero cards (which is technically "up to two") and gained a card, which means you did "both" so I can trash a card now, right?  Of course that's not the intent--other players only get to trash if you trash and gain, but I just wanted to make sure the card was as clear as possible.  If it's pretty obvious that trashing zero cards doesn't "count" for "trash up to two cards," I can certainly use the cleaner wording.  What do you all think?
Oooh, I didn't think of that. Good catch. Probably you could use my wording and say "If you both gained and trashed a card...", but that eliminates the advantage of the wording being shorter. Considering that, your wording seems fine to me now.

One of my earliest versions of Peasant Village did give the +Buy unconditionally, but I worried it was a tad strong when compared with Hamlet (which needs to discard two cards in order to get the +2 Actions and +1 Buy).  In any case, I have a revised version of Peasant Village just about finished in playtesting that I'll be posting today (along with a revised version of Investor).
I'd say the fact that it doesn't draw is enough of a drawback to justify that. It certainly isn't as unproblematic to load up on these as it is with Hamlet. But I'm curious for the next version.

I had not considered that sort of strategy with Carpenter, and now I'm curious how feasible it actually would be.  You'd have to make sure to connect your $4 cards with Carpenter, though once you get a few of them, it probably wouldn't be too difficult.  Will playtest and see if it's too monolithic.  If it is, the simplest fix might be to just remove the +1 Card, which should nerf that strategy pretty well since you'd usually only have three cards to discard instead of four.  Good catch.
You don't actually need to get that many 4$s for that Carpenter strategy. Just keep your deck very slim. Also, you can directly make Carpenters out of Estates. Even without the +1 Card, Estate->carpenter->Province works. But true, that one would seem much less feasible.

I appreciate the thoughts--helpful as always!
:D
You're welcome.
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2017, 07:29:11 pm »
+2

Hello friends! 

Here are my first revisions (also in the OP).  It's just three cards this time and one of those is just a very mild update.

4est



 

Fish Market remains largely the same, except with a "once or twice" clause, so if you're satisfied after discarding once and taking a bonus, the card doesn't force you to discard again.  This adds a bit more flexibility.





Investor retains its original topdecked Silver gaining but now can gain Golds--very powerful for a $3, but you usually have to significantly reduce your buying power this turn to do so.  Surprisingly, in my Investor-BM playtesting (about 10 games of each version), this addition actually didn't seem significantly faster than the old Silver-only version.  Discarding two Treasures is a big hoop to jump through, but having three options (no discard, discard one, discard two) helps with smoothing your money in BM games and makes for more interesting decisions in the late game where you have to gauge the benefits of Silver next turn vs. Gold next shuffle.  Additionally, the revised version makes Investor a bit more useful in engines too, as a cheap payload gainer that also draws.



 

Peasant Village gets an overhaul, also with more choices on how to play it.  It can still generate +Buy by discarding the top card of your deck, but now you can also trash that top card, or if you don't want to trash it or discard it, you can basically exchange it for another card in your hand, at the cost of reducing your handsize.  No longer can you leave the card on top.  Peasant Village feels a bit like Squire--three options, all of which will be used, but will probably play different each time you use it.  Early on, the trashing can be very nice, but it suffers from Sentry-Syndrome, only looking at one card.  Later, the +Buy and sifting can come in handy.  And that option to put the card into your hand is always there, so you're not sad when you turn over your needed engine component.  In games where Peasant Village is the only +Buy, it creates tough decisions when discarding for +Buy is the correct choice, but when the card you flip is good, the temptation to just take it is hard to resist. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 04:58:16 pm by 4est »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 08:09:03 pm »
+1

I feel like perhaps I came across too negative the first time, these cards are great! I particularly like the change to peasant village, much better! Investor is OK but still maybe a little vanilla. Fish market:
Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard 1 or 2 cards, and choose one per card discarded: *boni*
Would this be better? Maybe to make it more interesting it could even be "discard an odd number of cards from your hand".
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2017, 03:32:36 pm »
+2

I feel like perhaps I came across too negative the first time, these cards are great! I particularly like the change to peasant village, much better! Investor is OK but still maybe a little vanilla. Fish market:
Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard 1 or 2 cards, and choose one per card discarded: *boni*
Would this be better? Maybe to make it more interesting it could even be "discard an odd number of cards from your hand".

Thanks Theta!  And no worries, I appreciated your initial feedback as it's challenged me to try some more innovative ideas in my card revisions.  I'm pleased with how the new Peasant Village turned out too!  I like Investor, and I can see how it is still a bit plain, but for now, I'm okay with it and am prioritizing editing other cards. 

Interesting thought on Fish Market--I guess it would force you to decide what bonuses you're going to take and how many beforehand, whereas the current version allows you to decide after discarding once if you want to discard again.  Not sure which I like better--I'll try it with this wording in my next game and see how it goes, though I'm still leaning toward the current wording.  The odd number idea is unique, but I worry that it might be a bit too restricting and result in usually only discarding one card, and only rarely three or more. 

I'm finishing up revisions to the two Attacks in the set now--I feel pretty good about the new version of Marshal (it's very different from the original), though Rebellion still needs some work.  Hoping to post updates in the next day or so.  Thanks all! 
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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2017, 11:06:17 am »
+1

With current wording on Cryptex, if I name Copper and the Ace of Spades, and reveal 2 Coppers, I get the benefit. I think that's not intended.
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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2017, 11:10:18 am »
+1

I feel like perhaps I came across too negative the first time, these cards are great! I particularly like the change to peasant village, much better! Investor is OK but still maybe a little vanilla. Fish market:
Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard 1 or 2 cards, and choose one per card discarded: *boni*
Would this be better? Maybe to make it more interesting it could even be "discard an odd number of cards from your hand".
Fish Market could also be this:

Discard any number of cards. For each card discarded, choose one: [boni] The choices must be different.
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