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Author Topic: 4est's Cards  (Read 1463 times)

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Asper

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2017, 01:22:03 pm »
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With current wording on Cryptex, if I name Copper and the Ace of Spades, and reveal 2 Coppers, I get the benefit. I think that's not intended.
Hum, with Ace of Spades it actually isn't a problem. You could substitute that with naming Copper twice. However, you could name Copper and Estate, drawing both as long as neither card is something else. So you'll draw all of CE/EE/CC.

4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2017, 02:31:47 pm »
+1

With current wording on Cryptex, if I name Copper and the Ace of Spades, and reveal 2 Coppers, I get the benefit. I think that's not intended.

Hum, with Ace of Spades it actually isn't a problem. You could substitute that with naming Copper twice. However, you could name Copper and Estate, drawing both as long as neither card is something else. So you'll draw all of CE/EE/CC.

I see what you all mean, yeah, that's not the intent, you should have to name both cards correctly and not get the bonus if you name a card that wasn't revealed.  In any case, the card will be revised, and given some of the other issues with Cryptex (such as its swingyness), I'm also considering replacing it with a different card entirely.  Good catch on the current wording though.
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2017, 01:15:26 pm »
+2

Hello again!

A few more revisions, Astronomer and the two attacks.  Especially interested in feedback on Marshal and Rebellion--attacks are harder to balance and I'm still not sure if I'm satisfied with the updates. 

4est





After testing a few different options, I've settled on checking only another player's hand for duplicates and using the Gladiator method instead of hand revealing (thanks Asper for the idea!). 





I scrapped the old Marshal and am trying something very different.  Still a handsize attack--except you first name a card which if other players discard, it's a terminal Gold.  Otherwise, it's a cantrip.  Early on, you'll mainly name Copper or Estate--the attack is stronger on your opponents if they try to keep the named card so you don't get the +$3.  Consecutive plays of Marshal make other players draw back up and then discard (so the attack isn't useless when other players are already at 3 cards)--the sifting can be helpful for your opponents (similar to consecutive plays of Margrave).  Later in the game, when Coppers and Estates are fewer, knowing what to name is important or else the attack won't generate coin.  Though I've playtested this some, I'm still unsure if this attack is balanced and I have not tried playing with the card in games with more than 2 players--I'm guessing more players will make it easier to get the $3, but not sure how much easier.  Would love to hear your thoughts!





Rebellion is very similar to the first version, except it now gives other players a choice of whether or not to gain a free Duchy when you gain a Rebellion.  A free Duchy that provides VP and protection from Rebellion's cursing is a bargain, but especially early on, it can be a big liability to take one since it's another junk card that will get in your way.  Sometimes, you're hopeful players will take them when you get Rebellion.  However, those free points you've passed out may come back to bite you later in the game.  Like Mountebank, Rebellion can definitely make the game sloggy pretty quick if people always take the Duchys, but as a Smithy, it can still be a strong engine component.  I found the choice of whether to take the free Duchy to be unique--it's such a good deal, but do I really want another dead card in my deck on turn three or four?  Perhaps the attack itself is still a bit vanilla, but this is what I have for now. 



Would love to hear thoughts on these, especially the attacks--so far, I've found attacks to be much more difficult to revise and keep balanced than some of my other cards. 

Thanks friends!
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2017, 04:52:08 pm »
+1

I like your fixes for Marshal and Astronomer.

Rebellion seems a bit weak, now Witch seems a lot better. Guaranteed cursing is pretty good. I think if it was an Estate on gain it would be fine, but now the chance of getting a -3 swing seems really bad.

I really think you should change Granary, it does too much at once. The Draw-to-x part seems fine but the discarding just makes it weird.

EDIT: GAHHHH I have 666 respect now where did I go wrong?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 04:53:14 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2017, 05:17:21 pm »
+3

Thanks Satan, very helpful comments.  Also, I fixed your respect problem, so now you can go by Theta again instead of Satan.

I had actually initially tried Estates on-gain for Rebellion but thought Duchies might be a bit more interesting.  You're probably right though, the VP swing is fairly strong currently.

I still rather like Granary as is, but indeed it is a bit wordy and might be trying to do too much.  I'll playtest some variants. 
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2017, 08:41:05 pm »
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Quick fix: Carpenter doesn't have to say you may discard any number of cards.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2017, 10:24:00 pm »
+2

I don't think the new Rebellion seems weak at all*. A duchy is still junk until the endgame. You have to have junk (or a mutil-type VP card) in your hand to discard to avoid the curse for each Rebellion played by an opponent, and it draws three cards for them either way. Definitely not weak. It's probably balanced just fine, but it will make games sloggy unless there's very good trashing.

The new Marshal seems good, except for how it gets stronger and slightly political in multiplayer. It'll also be mostly automatic to name Estate in the very early game, and then Copper once most Estates have been trashed.

I like the fix on Astronomer.

*Apparently, my job in this thread is to disagree with Theta.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 10:25:09 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2017, 07:19:33 am »
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*Apparently, my job in this thread is to disagree with Theta.
Well you agreed with my other 2 points...
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2017, 06:54:09 pm »
+2

Hello again friends,

I've got some more updates--including a minor update, a major update, and a brand new card!  Would love to get your thoughts and feedback on these!

4est





Carpenter gets a minor text change, removing the redundant "you may" from the "discard up to" clause (good catch Theta).  More significantly, it loses the +1 Card it originally had.  As Asper pointed out, with the +1 Card, it was much too easy to just discard 4 cards to trash Coppers into Smithies (or other $4 costs), then discard another 4 cards to trash those into Provinces.  Without the draw, now you often only have 3 cards in hand after trashing, which is indeed still enough to trash Estates into Carpenters (and Carpenters into Provinces), but this is much slower and rarely a strategy enough by itself to win a game.  It still retains its function as a remodeler which was the original intent.





While it still retains the 2VP, everything else about the old Water Wheel has been scrapped and replaced with this new version, now costing $6.  The idea was to create a Victory card that you buy and allows you to discard remaining cards in your hand to Scheme cards in play.  Unlike Scheme, Water Wheel does allow you to topdeck Treasures too, not just Actions, and has the potential to topdeck a full hand of five cards for next turn, provided you can discard five cards after buying it.  Sometimes even just Scheming two or three cards is enough, to make sure your Kings Court or City Quarter is in your next hand.  I tried pricing it at $5 originally and you could discard any number of cards, but that was way too strong in playtesting, so now it costs $6 and has a limit of 5 cards.





And a brand new card, Corridor!  As mentioned several times, though I loved the idea of Cryptex, in practice it was just too swingy to really be worth it--either overpowered when you guess right or annoying when you guess wrong.  Corridor takes its place, still a $4 cost payload card, and one that better exemplifies the set's intended theme.  Corridor borrows from a lot of things, it discards for coins like Vault, it's best when you have a small hand like Menagerie, and it can chain itself like Cultist--all completely different effects, but together I felt they synergized surprisingly well.  Since it doesn't draw on a hand of five cards, your first Corridor won't guarantee you to hit $5, similar to Storeroom, but it's a cute counter to handsize attacks.  Once you have a few of them, the chaining ability is powerful, but connecting them, especially your first play with your second, can be difficult.  Thoughts?  Does this seem balanced?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 05:02:05 pm by 4est »
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ConMan

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2017, 08:06:45 pm »
+1

I like Corridor! At first glance, it doesn't seem too imbalanced. I wonder, though, if piling Corridors will be particularly strong or not (compared to, say, a Cultist chain, which has the attack portion to it).

Water Mill seems good, but it does have the small issue that it can remove a Duration card from play while leaving its Duration effect set up. Which can already happen (thanks Procession), but it is something that Scheme's wording specifically protects against.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2017, 08:14:22 pm »
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Quote from: Watermill
When you buy this, discard up to 5 cards, then, when you would discard cards from play this turn, put a card onto your deck instead per card you discarded.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 08:15:40 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2017, 08:30:09 pm »
+1

I still think Rebellion needs changing. Let's examine the cases:
  • Your opponents won't gain the Duchy.
In this case, the effect is useless, it may as well not be there. I think this will happen a good majority of the time, especially since you want Rebellion early when Duchies are bad.
  • Your opponents will gain the Duchy, and it's really good for them.
Now you won't buy Rebellion, the free Duchies is just too good. This could be an interesting deterrent, but I think all the times that giving free Duchies is really good for your opponents, a Duchy is good for you as well. I can't really see any major cases where you'd buy this and people will get Duchies, but buying this was still a good move for you.

So all in all, I think that 70% of the time this won't affect the game, and 20% of the remaining times it affects the game only because of a suboptimal play.

I do like the choice, though, maybe if it was
Quote
Each other player may gain an Estate, for +1.
Now it's more interesting. Comparing against the 2 scenarios above:
  • Your opponents won't gain the Estate.
I think this will happen more, a free token gives you a slight edge even if you TfB the Estate.
  • Your opponents will gain the Estate, and it's really good for them.
This should happen less too, a 2 swing is a little less than a 3 swing.

My fix probably isn't perfect either, and it could be better for your opponents then a Duchy. I think giving it +1 Buy might work if it's too weak. This isn't a random fix, I think the extra buy would help you lower the Estates and could make Rebellion a good 3-pile card.
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Asper

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2017, 10:47:53 pm »
+1

Quote from: Watermill
When you buy this, discard up to 5 cards, then, when you would discard cards from play this turn, put a card onto your deck instead per card you discarded.

This wording doesn't make clear the cards that are put on your deck are the cards in play that would be discarded.
Here's another try:

"When you buy this, discard up to 5 cards. Per card discarded, you may put one of your cards in play onto your deck when you discard it this turn."

majiponi

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2017, 08:23:25 am »
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I like Corridor! At first glance, it doesn't seem too imbalanced. I wonder, though, if piling Corridors will be particularly strong or not (compared to, say, a Cultist chain, which has the attack portion to it).
I think it a kind of Minion Variant. It is an strong counter of Militia, it chains in itself. 3 draw, 3 discard, chaining is very fun. Very nice, I agree. But why does this allow playing only a copy of itself? Just +1 Action is simpler. Is it broken?
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2017, 09:43:57 am »
+1

I like Corridor! At first glance, it doesn't seem too imbalanced. I wonder, though, if piling Corridors will be particularly strong or not (compared to, say, a Cultist chain, which has the attack portion to it).
I think it a kind of Minion Variant. It is an strong counter of Militia, it chains in itself. 3 draw, 3 discard, chaining is very fun. Very nice, I agree. But why does this allow playing only a copy of itself? Just +1 Action is simpler. Is it broken?

Hi majiponi, thanks for the thoughts!  I do see the similarities to Minion, interesting observations! 

On your question, technically it doesn't only "allow playing only a copy of itself," you can of course always play a different action after you play Corridor, provided you have Village support.  I hadn't considered using +1 Action instead--you're right, this is simpler than "you may play a Corridor from your hand" and would still allow for the same chaining effect.  However, in all of my initial drafts of the card, Corridor was always terminal--just like Vault and Storeroom.  These two official cards are both terminal for a few reasons, first a non-terminal Vault would be strictly better than Lab, but more significantly, the discard for benefit effect allows you to discard colliding terminals, turning them into a helpful resource.  These sorts of cards are "soft terminals" which still let you put remaining actions in your hand to use at some extent.  Taking some inspiration from Vault and Storeroom, Corridor is also a soft-terminal--I believe making it non-terminal would eliminate some of the unique choices that can come up when playing the current version.  Additionally, playing another copy from your hand is a much more difficult condition to fulfill than just +1 Action--there's a reason Cultist is terminal and only "allows" you to play another Cultist, rather than giving +1 Action. All that to say, I haven't played with a non-terminal version of Corridor--I doubt it would necessarily be "broken" but do think its terminal-ness (paired with the chaining) creates a more interesting card than if it had +1 Action. 

I appreciate the ideas though!  Helpful things to think about. 
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4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2017, 09:56:23 am »
0

Quote from: Watermill
When you buy this, discard up to 5 cards, then, when you would discard cards from play this turn, put a card onto your deck instead per card you discarded.

This wording doesn't make clear the cards that are put on your deck are the cards in play that would be discarded.
Here's another try:

"When you buy this, discard up to 5 cards. Per card discarded, you may put one of your cards in play onto your deck when you discard it this turn."

Thanks guys for the help on the wording for Water Wheel!  I knew when I posted it that it probably wasn't quite right, but I couldn't figure out how to phrase it concisely so it would mirror Scheme's effect.  It's funny how with these sorts of things, I know exactly what the cards are supposed to do and not do but wording it exactly right to rule out all the pedantic edge cases is tricky.  I'll update the OP and this post with a reworded version later. 

Theta, I appreciate your thoughts on Rebellion, very helpful.  I'm still not totally satisfied with it either, I mean I think it's okay as is, but I want to give it some more thoughts and see if I can make it even better.  I like the idea of allowing opponents to gain an Estate and +1VP, that does seem a bit more balanced and compelling, however I would prefer not to have to use VP tokens on just one card in the set.  I'm going to keep working on this one.

Thanks friends!
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Asper

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2017, 10:00:43 am »
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Truth be told, I'm not sure I really like the self-chaining on Corridor. Usually discard-for-benefit goes best with somewhat junked decks, while the chaining goes best in small, clean decks. Getting into a situation where you both have junk to discard and can chain two Corridors will require quite a bit of luck, I feel. Even if you manage to do that, such a hand will rarely do better than e.g. Horse Traders. The nicest thing about the card is that it re-fills your hand after a Militia, so it doesn't get worse in games with discard attacks. Which, now that I think about it, is also something Horse Traders already does.

4est

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2017, 05:10:23 pm »
+1

Hello friends! 

I've been busy and haven't had much time in the past few weeks to work on my cards, but I do have a few updates and ideas to post. 

4est





First, I've corrected Water Wheel's wording as suggested to mirror Scheme (see above and OP).  Thanks all for the suggested wording fixes!





Next, I haven't actually playtested this yet, but I've been trying to think of other variations on Rebellion.  The Duchy-gifting was pretty close to what I wanted, however the 3VP swing might be a bit too strong for other players as indicated by Theta.  One alternative that doesn't require VP tokens or other mechanics would be "When you gain this, each other player may gain a Silver and an Estate."  This would be only a 1VP swing, would still "junk" with Victory cards that can be used for protection from Rebellion, and can also gives players a bit of extra economy with the Silver gifting, like Embassy, though again, they might not want Silvers or Estates and could decline to take them, creating some interesting decisions.  The Silvers also might help Rebellion-heavy games to not descend so quickly into green and purple slogs.  Thoughts? 



Finally, I have another new card to introduce as a potential replacement for Cryptex.  While I still like Corridor, Asper pointed out its similarities to Horse Traders and the more I think about it, the more it seems that the card is too similar, and may be a bit niche.  If this new one works out, I might use it instead of Corridor. 



Originally, I named this Drawbridge as a joke, but the horrible pun was just too much--so now it's called Causeway.  It's a cost reducer, similar to Bridge but without +$1, and fitting with the themes of the set it both benefits from and can create small handsizes.  Without the bottom bonus, it's strictly worse than Bridge, but if you manage to have no cards in your hand after playing Causeway, you draw another 3 Cards and can keep playing Actions.  Like Corridor, Causeway can chain itself under certain circumstances, and is a cute counter to handsize attacks.  Originally, it had a "while this is in play" clause like Highway, but I decided to try it without to be more like Bridge--Causeway likes Throne Room even more that way. 

I'd love to get feedback on this card too--I've found it to be trickier to playtest as cost reducers naturally tend to have more significant impact on a lot of other cards--gainers, TfB, trashing attacks, etc.  Is it balanced?  Fun or finicky?  Too strong or too weak?  Too similar to Bridge?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 05:34:23 pm by 4est »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: 4est's Cards
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2017, 08:13:22 am »
0

I like your fix to Rebellion and Waterwheel.

Regarding Causeway, it seems a bit much. The discarding and no caeds in hand is cool, but the cost reduction seems just annoying. Maybe if it was a simple +1 Action +1 Coin +1Buy and discard up to 2, then if you have 0 draw 3. That seems cool, but maybe too different from your first version.
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