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Author Topic: Quest  (Read 1096 times)

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majiponi

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Quest
« on: January 24, 2017, 08:57:52 pm »
0

I can see my opponent discards 6 cards (counting her hand), discards an Attack (looking at the top card of her discard pile). What about 2 Curses? I cannot check whether she really discards a Curse and a Curse. The first card is hidden.
Of course, I won't doubt my friend and other players in the competition, and I won't play foul, but this is a kind of accountability problems, isn't it?
What should we do? Ask to reveal all of them? Or check their discard pile?
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Re: Quest
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2017, 10:10:05 pm »
+1

I think ask to reveal all of them.
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Jeebus

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Re: Quest
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 09:50:55 am »
0

You're right, to be completely technically correct, the card should have said to reveal and discard 2 Curses. But I don't think anybody would be confused about this; obviously you have to show that you're discarding 2 Curses if it's not obvious.

GendoIkari

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Re: Quest
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 10:09:41 am »
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You're right, to be completely technically correct, the card should have said to reveal and discard 2 Curses. But I don't think anybody would be confused about this; obviously you have to show that you're discarding 2 Curses if it's not obvious.

I'm going to be pedantic and say that in fact you do not have to show that you're discarding 2 Curses. In the same way that when playing Throne Room (1st edition) with no action card in hand, you don't have to show your hand to prove that you don't have an action in hand.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Quest
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 10:33:10 am »
0

If you don't show that you did what you have to do for X, you don't get X
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Jeebus

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Re: Quest
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2017, 10:45:05 am »
+1

I'm going to be pedantic and say that in fact you do not have to show that you're discarding 2 Curses. In the same way that when playing Throne Room (1st edition) with no action card in hand, you don't have to show your hand to prove that you don't have an action in hand.

Of course, as I said, that is tecnically correct. But I think there is a practical difference between this and Throne Room 1: There is a valid reason to not wanting to show your hand, but there is no valid reason to not wanting to show that the other discarded card was also a Curse. So with Throne Room 1, you could theoretically end up with either having to trust your opponent or calling in a third party to check their hand. No such consern will ever arise with Quest. That's why I think it should be treated like it said "reveal". To put it another way: Treating Quest like it said "reveal" makes no difference (except making it accountable), while for Throne Room 1, making it accountable changes it.

GendoIkari

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Re: Quest
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2017, 10:49:27 am »
0

I'm going to be pedantic and say that in fact you do not have to show that you're discarding 2 Curses. In the same way that when playing Throne Room (1st edition) with no action card in hand, you don't have to show your hand to prove that you don't have an action in hand.

Of course, as I said, that is tecnically correct. But I think there is a practical difference between this and Throne Room 1: There is a valid reason to not wanting to show your hand, but there is no valid reason to not wanting to show that the other discarded card was also a Curse. So with Throne Room 1, you could theoretically end up with either having to trust your opponent or calling in a third party to check their hand. No such consern will ever arise with Quest. That's why I think it should be treated like it said "reveal". To put it another way: Treating Quest like it said "reveal" makes no difference (except making it accountable), while for Throne Room 1, making it accountable changes it.

Fair point.
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Donald X.

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Re: Quest
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2017, 04:42:04 pm »
+7

I can see my opponent discards 6 cards (counting her hand), discards an Attack (looking at the top card of her discard pile). What about 2 Curses? I cannot check whether she really discards a Curse and a Curse. The first card is hidden.
Of course, I won't doubt my friend and other players in the competition, and I won't play foul, but this is a kind of accountability problems, isn't it?
What should we do? Ask to reveal all of them? Or check their discard pile?
You are correct, there is an accountability problem. In practice it shouldn't matter, because why would they be unwilling to show you the other Curse? I mean if they won't, they're either cheating or a jerk. In a friendly game, if they won't show you the other Curse, you do not want to be playing with them.

Classic accountability issues like old Throne Room can be solved in tournaments by asking the judge to confirm that the play is legal. In this case that's just ludicrous; the only information given away by the Curse is the fact that they're not cheating. Still if that's who you're dealing with, call the judge to confirm.
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Shvegait

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Re: Quest
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2017, 11:34:49 pm »
+7

This comes up also with Opulent Castle, which says to discard any number of Victory cards. Here it might matter sometimes, like if you don't want your opponents to know you're discarding Small Castle this turn, so they don't know your chances of being able to play it next turn.
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ackmondual

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Re: Quest
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 12:49:47 am »
0

I can see my opponent discards 6 cards (counting her hand), discards an Attack (looking at the top card of her discard pile). What about 2 Curses? I cannot check whether she really discards a Curse and a Curse. The first card is hidden.
Of course, I won't doubt my friend and other players in the competition, and I won't play foul, but this is a kind of accountability problems, isn't it?
What should we do? Ask to reveal all of them? Or check their discard pile?
You are correct, there is an accountability problem. In practice it shouldn't matter, because why would they be unwilling to show you the other Curse? I mean if they won't, they're either cheating or a jerk. In a friendly game, if they won't show you the other Curse, you do not want to be playing with them.

Classic accountability issues like old Throne Room can be solved in tournaments by asking the judge to confirm that the play is legal. In this case that's just ludicrous; the only information given away by the Curse is the fact that they're not cheating. Still if that's who you're dealing with, call the judge to confirm.
I've seen some of the worst rules lawyers ever whom would not budge, with an equally adamant opposing party who wouldn't give way either.  In such extreme cases, the game just simply comes to an end.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Quest
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 03:43:57 am »
0

'If you discard anything for benefit, you reveal it.'

There we go. Problem solved.
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Awaclus

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Re: Quest
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 04:01:58 am »
+1

'If you discard anything for benefit, you reveal it.'

There we go. Problem solved.

The game doesn't mechanically differentiate between discarding for benefit and discarding for some other reason. Besides, I don't think there's a reason to reveal cards you discard for Cellar.

AdrianHealey

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Re: Quest
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 04:11:29 am »
0

Your fake autism just isn't funny anymore, you need a new schtick
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Awaclus

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Re: Quest
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 04:20:10 am »
0

Your fake autism just isn't funny anymore, you need a new schtick

What? It wasn't supposed to be funny. If you come up with a rule that doesn't mean anything, it's not going to solve any problems.

pacovf

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Re: Quest
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2017, 04:30:45 am »
0

I'm with Awaclus. Unlike other games, the rules of Dominion try to be as precise as possible. There is no such thing as discarding for benefit. This is just an accountability problem. Quest should say something along the lines of "reveal then discard", as other cards do. Our resident rules expert, Jeebus, seems to also agree.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Quest
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2017, 05:02:09 am »
0

Your fake autism just isn't funny anymore, you need a new schtick

What? It wasn't supposed to be funny. If you come up with a rule that doesn't mean anything, it's not going to solve any problems.

That makes it even worse
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Awaclus

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Re: Quest
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2017, 05:30:31 am »
0

Your fake autism just isn't funny anymore, you need a new schtick

What? It wasn't supposed to be funny. If you come up with a rule that doesn't mean anything, it's not going to solve any problems.

That makes it even worse

Do you also think these would be good rules for Dominion:

"Whenever you discard anything you don't like, you have to reveal it."
"Whenever you discard anything to get a reasonably complicated effect, you have to reveal it."
"Whenever you discard anything that you are very unlikely to discard, you have to reveal it."

AdrianHealey

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Re: Quest
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2017, 07:12:48 am »
0

Your fake autism just isn't funny anymore, you need a new schtick

Since you like playing autistic, I shall do the same.

User was warned for this post
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 09:45:04 am by theory »
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pacovf

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Re: Quest
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2017, 07:18:59 am »
+2

I think you are being unreasonable, Adrian.
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McGarnacle

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Re: Quest
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2017, 07:32:06 am »
0

Your fake autism just isn't funny anymore, you need a new schtick

Since you like playing autistic, I shall do the same.

Wait, what?!
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Re: Quest
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2017, 08:03:21 am »
0

I'm an actually autistic person, and thought the answer "well, you show both Curses at the same time as you discard them" was an obvious and good answer to the question.
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Re: Quest
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2017, 08:33:32 am »
+1

The shitty and completely unwarranted ableism aside, let's not pretend that the majority of people on this forum aren't on the autism spectrum, to at least some limited degree.

This doesn't make anyone incapable of understanding anything, nor does it make anyone needlessly pedantic.

Jesus, Adrian, you're making me defend Awaclus, what the fuck is wrong with you?
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Quest
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2017, 08:35:32 am »
+4

It's harder to avoid RSP then I thought.
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Re: Quest
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2017, 08:42:52 am »
+2

It's harder to avoid RSP then I thought.

It's like guilt, it follows you everywhere, and the choices you make haunt you forever. Sorry, I've just been watching too many Until Dawn playthroughs.
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Re: Quest
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2017, 09:06:43 am »
0

I want to respond to stuff, but it's better to continue in RSP so I'll make a thread there.

AdrianHealey

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Re: Quest
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2017, 10:15:19 am »
0

The shitty and completely unwarranted ableism aside, let's not pretend that the majority of people on this forum aren't on the autism spectrum, to at least some limited degree.

This doesn't make anyone incapable of understanding anything, nor does it make anyone needlessly pedantic.

Jesus, Adrian, you're making me defend Awaclus, what the fuck is wrong with you?

I know all of this. That's why the act is so annoying.
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Cuzz

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Re: Quest
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2017, 10:19:38 am »
0

Why don't they just make the whole forum out of RSP?
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Quest
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2017, 10:21:49 am »
0

Is calling out 'being a dick' rsp only?

If so, I apologize for the location.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Quest
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2017, 10:33:41 am »
+10

I genuinely have no idea what was wrong with what Awaclus said here.
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Re: Quest
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2017, 01:10:00 pm »
+8

It's harder to avoid RSP then I thought.

You mean it's harder to avoid RSP than you thought.
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jonts26

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Re: Quest
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2017, 01:31:41 pm »
+8

No he's saying he only started to think after it became to hard to avoid RSP. It's an endorsement.
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