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Author Topic: Baths, Posession  (Read 3860 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2017, 04:10:23 pm »
+1

Which, as noted, could in fact be done with Salt the Earth or Lurker.
How would you get the Lurker?

Good point.

Edit:  Oh wait, Masquerade of course.

In which case you can also use Masquerade to get the Witch or Looter. But somebody had to gain a Masquerade at some point. Salt of the Earth is the only way to end a game without anyone literally ever gaining any cards.

And in which case, Baths will have no VP on it long before the game ends.
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Donald X.

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2017, 05:39:29 pm »
+1

Ok, so then that creates another timing question. Extra turns from Mission and Outpost are also resolved directly after your turn ends. Can you then choose to do the extra turn first, then put set-aside cards from Possession in your discard pile? Or, do the extra turn first, then put the set-aside card from Save in your hand?
One set of cards says "after this [turn]," the other "at the end of your turn." I'm tentatively calling those two separate times, with "end of turn" first. You can order effects within those.
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Jeebus

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2017, 07:08:38 pm »
+1

I'm trying to make sense of this new timing ruling. Obviously I thought it was both more intuitive, clearer and easier to understand when I assumed that "end of turn" happens as the last part of Clean-up.

1) What about Wine Merchant? It follows that "at the end of your Buy phase" is after your Buy phase. Is it in your Clean-up phase then? Else it would have to be in-between the two phases, but having stuff in-between phases seems really odd. I mean, with current cards it doesn't seem to matter, but some cards (like Crown or Peddler) care about what phase you're in, and having "at the end of your Buy phase" happen when you're not in any phase, doesn't seem like a wise choice. Then again, having it in your Clean-up phase doesn't seem much better.

2) According to the rulebook, "the game ends at the end of a turn, if either the Province pile is empty, or any three or more Supply piles are empty." This would seem to mean that end-game is checked at the same time as Baths. So can you choose to end the game after you take 2 VP? This seemingly similar timing (based on the phrasing) was already there of course, but with the assumption that Baths actually happens in your turn, it seemed clearer that end-game is checked as the last thing in your turn, after Baths.

In any case, a literal reading would seem to suggest that you can choose to resolve Baths first, whether you go by the new ruling or the old assumption. Or: end-game check is not something you can order, it's always last; in which case you always get the 2 VP from Baths, whether you go by the new ruling or the old assumption. But having Baths (Possession, Save) and end-game check both happen after your turn, and end-game check being last of those things, make it pretty fuzzy that there are other after-turn things happening after end-game check.

Donald X.

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2017, 09:47:30 pm »
+1

I'm trying to make sense of this new timing ruling. Obviously I thought it was both more intuitive, clearer and easier to understand when I assumed that "end of turn" happens as the last part of Clean-up.
Well the rulebook doesn't say that. A rule like that would be something that players would not know, that would just be on the internet in a few places. I am always trying to avoid anything that amounts to new secret rules. Again it was a mistake to say "end of turn" but some cards do say that.

And these situations you mention, some of them could have come up years ago and did not. They are not affecting games. You are not asking about a game you played, where everyone wondered what should happen. So I feel like "handle the card wordings as-is" is fine while "improve how intuitive this obscure situation is by changing things" is not.

1) What about Wine Merchant? It follows that "at the end of your Buy phase" is after your Buy phase. Is it in your Clean-up phase then? Else it would have to be in-between the two phases, but having stuff in-between phases seems really odd. I mean, with current cards it doesn't seem to matter, but some cards (like Crown or Peddler) care about what phase you're in, and having "at the end of your Buy phase" happen when you're not in any phase, doesn't seem like a wise choice. Then again, having it in your Clean-up phase doesn't seem much better.
With current cards it doesn't matter? Sold. Yes, Wine Merchant should also not say "at the end of."

2) According to the rulebook, "the game ends at the end of a turn, if either the Province pile is empty, or any three or more Supply piles are empty." This would seem to mean that end-game is checked at the same time as Baths. So can you choose to end the game after you take 2 VP? This seemingly similar timing (based on the phrasing) was already there of course, but with the assumption that Baths actually happens in your turn, it seemed clearer that end-game is checked as the last thing in your turn, after Baths.

In any case, a literal reading would seem to suggest that you can choose to resolve Baths first, whether you go by the new ruling or the old assumption. Or: end-game check is not something you can order, it's always last; in which case you always get the 2 VP from Baths, whether you go by the new ruling or the old assumption. But having Baths (Possession, Save) and end-game check both happen after your turn, and end-game check being last of those things, make it pretty fuzzy that there are other after-turn things happening after end-game check.
The game end check is after "at end of turn" and before "after this turn." Any conflict between it and any "end of turn" trigger isn't covered by the regular timing rules anyway - it isn't one of two things happening to different players at the same time, or one of two things happening to one player at the same time.
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Jeebus

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2017, 12:29:51 am »
0

I'm trying to make sense of this new timing ruling. Obviously I thought it was both more intuitive, clearer and easier to understand when I assumed that "end of turn" happens as the last part of Clean-up.
Well the rulebook doesn't say that. A rule like that would be something that players would not know, that would just be on the internet in a few places. I am always trying to avoid anything that amounts to new secret rules.

What I'm trying to express there is that your ruling would be the secret rule, because most people would think that "at the end of your turn" is part of your turn, not after it. "At the end of the parade was a clown" - means that the clown was in the parade. People would not think that ending the last turn without gaining a card fails to give you VP from Baths. I'm pretty certain about that, but of course, I haven't done a survey.

And these situations you mention, some of them could have come up years ago and did not. They are not affecting games. You are not asking about a game you played, where everyone wondered what should happen.

I think using Baths in the last turn will come up quite often. I think you're right that no-one would wonder, they would just assume that you get the VP. For Baths + Possession, some might actually wonder, but I would think most would assume the Possessor gets the VP.

The game end check is after "at end of turn" and before "after this turn." Any conflict between it and any "end of turn" trigger isn't covered by the regular timing rules anyway - it isn't one of two things happening to different players at the same time, or one of two things happening to one player at the same time.

Wait, isn't Baths timed "at end of turn"? You said before in this thread that you don't get VP from Baths at the end of the last turn. But you seem to say otherwise now.

dane-m

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2017, 05:52:27 am »
+3

I don't think there's any rules question for a set-aside card that was set aside by being Trashed on a Possession turn... set-aside cards are always still part of your deck (Haven, Gear, etc). I don't think it even matters who it really was that set it aside; the act of setting it aside doesn't make it leave your deck.

But it is mildly interesting to note this interaction; that cards trashed this, when the game ends on a Possession turn, will end the game set-aside, not end the game in your discard pile.

The point is that it's trashed, so it stops belonging to you. Then it's set aside. The only other ability that sets aside a card that doesn't belong to any player, is Inheritance, I think.
When I first read the final sentence I thought you were making a false statement, but then I read it again and realised that it was in fact a sentence capable of being understood in two ways and I had taken it the wrong way.  I'll explain further just in case anyone else has done the same without realising that the wrong way is false.

"The only other ability that sets aside a card that doesn't belong to any player, is Inheritance, I think." could be read as meaning that Inheritance sets aside a card that then does not belong to any player.  That's the false meaning.  It can also be read as meaning that Inheritance sets aside a card that previously did not belong to any player.  That's the correct meaning.

EDIT: I'm going to retract my comment.  Given that 'that' is used for defining clauses while 'which' is used for describing clauses (though often also used instead of 'that' for defining clauses), my initial reading of "The only other ability that sets aside a card that doesn't belong to any player, is Inheritance" was just plain wrong: "that doesn't belong to any player" defines the nature of the card being set aside, i.e. it's a card not currently owned by any player.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 04:27:31 pm by dane-m »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2017, 09:24:21 am »
0

I'm trying to make sense of this new timing ruling. Obviously I thought it was both more intuitive, clearer and easier to understand when I assumed that "end of turn" happens as the last part of Clean-up.
Well the rulebook doesn't say that. A rule like that would be something that players would not know, that would just be on the internet in a few places. I am always trying to avoid anything that amounts to new secret rules.

What I'm trying to express there is that your ruling would be the secret rule, because most people would think that "at the end of your turn" is part of your turn, not after it. "At the end of the parade was a clown" - means that the clown was in the parade. People would not think that ending the last turn without gaining a card fails to give you VP from Baths. I'm pretty certain about that, but of course, I haven't done a survey.

And these situations you mention, some of them could have come up years ago and did not. They are not affecting games. You are not asking about a game you played, where everyone wondered what should happen.

I think using Baths in the last turn will come up quite often. I think you're right that no-one would wonder, they would just assume that you get the VP. For Baths + Possession, some might actually wonder, but I would think most would assume the Possessor gets the VP.

The game end check is after "at end of turn" and before "after this turn." Any conflict between it and any "end of turn" trigger isn't covered by the regular timing rules anyway - it isn't one of two things happening to different players at the same time, or one of two things happening to one player at the same time.

Wait, isn't Baths timed "at end of turn"? You said before in this thread that you don't get VP from Baths at the end of the last turn. But you seem to say otherwise now.

Baths is not "at the end of turn"... it's "when you end your turn". And the general Dominion timings for the word "when" try to always say that "when X" events only happen after "X" has happened. So "When you gain" happens after the gain (Inn is in your discard already), and "when you end your turn" happens after you have ended your turn.

The ruling isn't intuitive to me, but I do think it's consistent.
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Jeebus

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2017, 10:47:04 am »
+1

Baths is not "at the end of turn"... it's "when you end your turn". And the general Dominion timings for the word "when" try to always say that "when X" events only happen after "X" has happened. So "When you gain" happens after the gain (Inn is in your discard already), and "when you end your turn" happens after you have ended your turn.

The ruling isn't intuitive to me, but I do think it's consistent.

I assumed that "when you end you turn" is "at the end of your turn". That's why I mentioned Possession and Save from the start. Donald has not corrected me there or told me I was bringing up something irrelevant. Assuming they were the same, it followed that both Baths, Possession and Save happen after your turn according to this new ruling, and Donald confirmed that this is the case.

They could still be different of course. That would mean we have four different timings: "when you end your turn", "at the end of your turn", "after your turn" and the end-game check - all happening after your turn at different times!

trivialknot

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2017, 02:59:09 pm »
0

I would argue against Donald's ruling based on a comparison to Inheritance / Fortress.

When you Inherit Fortresses, Estates have the ability and type of Fortress as long as the Estates are "yours".  The Estate is still considered "yours" when its when-trash ability activates.  Therefore, when you trash an Estate, you put it into your hand.

Compare to Possession / Baths.  Baths activates when your turn ends, and I would argue that the turn is still "yours" during this time.  Therefore, the Possessor gets 2 VP.

Of course, my play group bans Possession, so I don't care either way.
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Donald X.

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2017, 03:13:29 pm »
+1

Wait, isn't Baths timed "at end of turn"? You said before in this thread that you don't get VP from Baths at the end of the last turn. But you seem to say otherwise now.
Someday, I will go back and check, and try harder to be consistent, so we can have perfect rules for this. Today it is just feeling like too much work.
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Jeebus

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2017, 05:43:11 pm »
0

Of course, my play group bans Possession, so I don't care either way.

This also matters if you end the last turn without gaining anything (and there are still VP left on Baths).

Donald X.

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Re: Baths, Posession
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2017, 04:53:09 am »
+10

I am, as usual tentatively, going with this ordering of things.

1. "end of turn" effects (such as Baths and Save)
2. "this turn" effects end (such as Possession and Bridge)
3. we are now between turns
4. the end-of-game check
5. "after this turn" effects (such as Outpost and Mountain Pass)

I do think people will expect "end of turn" to be during the turn. There is the usual contradiction - if something happened, it wasn't really the end of your turn. I am just going to wave my hand at that; I can't make an "end phase" to fix it.

"This turn" then lasts past "end of turn" stuff. Hopefully nothing will ever trigger off of effects ending then; it would be super-confusing.

The end-of-game check is after the turn, and followed by "after this turn." I have previously ruled that you don't get an Outpost turn if the game ended.
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