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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards  (Read 15253 times)

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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #250 on: May 10, 2017, 02:59:09 pm »
0

The thing about coin token cards, is that they anti-self-synergize.  You only really want a few for flexibility, after which point more flexibility doesn't help and you'd rather get stronger cards.

The thing about peddlers is that they self-synergize.  Buy buying peddlers instead of stop cards, you keep your deck thin.  Peddlers like thin decks because you draw them more often.  I wouldn't be surprised if, without Poacher's drawback, sometimes the correct strategy is to buy all the Poachers.

So, Baker has both of those things.  That makes it always mediocre.  It works best when you have a way to pick them up easily, or when having a lot of flexibility is really good.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #251 on: May 10, 2017, 04:10:09 pm »
+4

Poacher wasn't a card "too powerful for $4" that was nerfed with the discard ability. It was the other way around - the discard penalty was thought up and it needed a vanilla card to be placed on that wouldn't be too strong if the penalty never activated.

Baker is also a pretty reasonable (if not great) BM card - it does exactly what BM decks like, which is help with spikes and smoothing out coin over multiple turns. Coin tokens are only not often seen with BM because the coin token cards that exist are usually much better for engines.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 04:11:45 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #252 on: May 10, 2017, 04:52:43 pm »
+7

I feel like people aren't quite aware of the benefits coin tokens have over coins. They absolutely have diminishing comparative value but in games with +buy they provide a couple vital functions:

1. They can allow you to delay greening without sacrificing greening economy to do so, which can be necessary in engines that are just barely holding together.

2. In games that are reliant on Penultimate Province play or potential three pile-out victories, they allow the player to exert more control over their capabilities of ending the game on a VP lead.

3. In games with price-reduction mechanics (Bridge, Bridge Troll, Highway, Princess), they can be stockpiled somewhat in order to maximize the blowout buys when multiple of those reductions stack (-5$ cost with 5 coins not nearly as impressive as -5$ cost with 10 coins)

4. In games where you have an inconsistent source of +buy and are often getting decent coins per turn, the "purchase thresholds" which your coin tokens can roll over into go way past the typical 1-2 coins that you see in BM games.

So while in the majority of games you "only want a few" bakers potentially, there's plenty of circumstances where stacking bakers isn't a particularly bad idea or newb trap at all.

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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #253 on: May 10, 2017, 06:56:26 pm »
+6

Speaking about something other than Baker,

I feel like Emporium is underrated, but I'm not sure I can justify that feeling.  It sounds really bad on paper, just an expensive peddler with 2 VP attached.  I wouldn't get Great Halls, so why would I get Emporium?  But when it's actually decision time, it looks so good.  I can green, but instead of my deck getting junked, it gets slightly more powerful?  Sign me up.

There are also a couple things that make Emporium "strictly worse" but really make it stronger.  First, the fact that there are only 5 in the supply means you want to get them earlier, before they disappear.  Second, the 5-action restriction means that sometimes the VP is accessible to only one of the players.  You really want to be that player who gets the 10 VP lead.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #254 on: May 10, 2017, 08:22:14 pm »
0

Speaking about something other than Baker,

I feel like Emporium is underrated, but I'm not sure I can justify that feeling.  It sounds really bad on paper, just an expensive peddler with 2 VP attached.  I wouldn't get Great Halls, so why would I get Emporium?  But when it's actually decision time, it looks so good.  I can green, but instead of my deck getting junked, it gets slightly more powerful?  Sign me up.

There are also a couple things that make Emporium "strictly worse" but really make it stronger.  First, the fact that there are only 5 in the supply means you want to get them earlier, before they disappear.  Second, the 5-action restriction means that sometimes the VP is accessible to only one of the players.  You really want to be that player who gets the 10 VP lead.

I have to agree with this. 10VP is a lot, and if you compare Emporium to Duchy, you get 1 point less and something which helps instead of hurts your deck. Cool card. Peddler variant!
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #255 on: May 11, 2017, 09:09:14 am »
+2

Quote
Other boards are gain-limited, and by the time you dip into non-Province VP, the guaranteed 3 VP from the Duchy is often more attractive than the potential 4 VP from Distant Lands.

There's your problem - you're treating Distant Lands like Duchy. You basically never buy Distant Lands when you would buy Duchy - you only buy it when you wouldn't buy Duchy.

You're also treating Distant Lands as a "not a Province consolation prize" that you only get after greening for provinces. Also wrong! You often go hard into Distant Lands before you pick up any Provinces at all. Imagine an engine mirror where you go for Distant Lands when your opponent goes Provinces. You end up not that far behind but with several fewer stop cards, and you can clean up the last few Provinces to take the lead and win.

Suppose Alice gets Distant Lands before buying any Provinces.  Bob ignores Distant Lands and goes straight for Provinces.  If my math is correct, Alice needs to gain and play all 8 Distant Lands and buy her first Province (38 VP) before Bob gains 6 Provinces (36 VP).  If Alice gains the Province immediately after Bob gains his sixth Province, Bob can win by grabbing the last Province.  Now, maybe that's difficult with 6 stop cards in his deck, so Alice can risk buying the penultimate Province here.  If Bob dips into Duchies, he would need 5 Provinces and 3 Duchies (39 VP) to threaten a win against Alice purchasing her 2nd Province (44 VP).  Another possibility, more favorable to Alice, is if Alice can build up to a double Province turn while gaining and playing Distant Lands.  Then, Alice can double Province (44 VP) to beat a Bob who has 6 Provinces and 2 Duchies (42 VP).  Which strategy is better depends on the board.

Conditions that can make Alice's strategy better or worse than Bob's:
+ The presence of multiple buys or ways to gain multiple Distant Lands per turn*.
+ The presence of action splitting (to play multiple Distant Lands per turn, or at least a Distant Land and other terminals).
- The presence of a strong terminal action payload (e.g. Mountebank, Militia, Haggler, Butcher, etc...).  Alice will be spending some terminal space on Distant Lands, whereas Bob will have all of his terminal space available for these cards.
- The ability to handle extra green cards in one's deck (sifting, setting aside, treasure flooding, etc...).
- Large decks that take multiple turns to cycle.  Bob benefits from the slower cycling, while it will take Alice longer to play her Distant Lands.

* If, however, if the gains are strong enough, Neither Alice nor Bob will be playing the strongest strategy.  A player who keeps building to have a one-sided ability to end the game on piles will have the advantage.  If both players mirror this strategy, Distant Lands will be the worst green card (absent mid-turn gaining and playing shenanigans), because you only want to green when your opponent has the capability to win the game on their next turn absent those points.

There are certainly games where Alice's strategy is stronger than Bob's; Distant Lands is sometimes the right buy.  But I find that these games are the exception rather than the rule.  I'm willing to play a Distant Land cage match (preferably with a Distant Lands advocate) to gather more data.

Edit: Playing a Distant Lands cage match with Rabid on Sunday 18:00 UTC.
Edit 2: Game report
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 12:07:28 am by aku_chi »
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #256 on: May 11, 2017, 10:43:13 am »
0

(absent mid-turn gaining and playing shenanigans)
That's a pretty big caveat because there are plenty of boards where you can gain and play one or even multiple Distant Lands in the same turn.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #257 on: May 12, 2017, 12:13:15 pm »
+2

It sounds really bad on paper, just an expensive peddler with 2 VP attached.  I wouldn't get Great Halls, so why would I get Emporium?

...Because Emporium has 1 more VP and 1 more coin than Great Hall?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #258 on: May 12, 2017, 12:15:30 pm »
0

It sounds really bad on paper, just an expensive peddler with 2 VP attached.  I wouldn't get Great Halls, so why would I get Emporium?

...Because Emporium has 1 more VP and 1 more coin than Great Hall?

For more.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #259 on: May 12, 2017, 12:31:37 pm »
+3

For more.

Which is a 5/5 bretty good deal, as it turns out. Gold is $3 more than Silver and it only has 1 more coin.

funkdoc

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #260 on: May 14, 2017, 06:02:06 pm »
+23

baker is a great BM card, actually.  there's been a major shift in BM thinking that i think hasn't reached some of f.ds yet.  to explain:

something many of the top players have figured out by now, that took me a while to catch up on, is that most non-drawing BM is better than most terminal draw BM.  i had always thought it was the other way around, but the simulators have uncovered some pretty shocking results.  did you know that dungeon-BM beats embassy-BM if both open 4/3?  or that navigator-BM beats smithy-BM?  or that swamp hag-BM beats cultist-BM?

i think a big reason for this is that the non-drawing strategies give you a lot more flexibility, since you have a far lower risk of terminal collision.  you can add other helpful supporting players like haven, scary endgame weapons like salvager, or even a bit of early trashing!  the terminal draw strategies are forced to be monolithic, which is how we had long thought BM should be played...but we're now learning that optimal BM has more room for variety and adaptation to game state than the conventional wisdom would tell you.

baker is tremendous in this regard since it's non-terminal.  you get flexibility with the amount of money you spend each turn, *and* with your options for additional action cards.  a double-province turn is feasible with something like bridge on the board, or any trash-for-benefit.

i noticed in my own games that i would consistently ignore baker on money boards in favor of big draw...and usually lose to opponents who rushed bakers.  even mass candlestick makers would beat me in these situations!  that's what initially opened my eyes to all of this, and my success has increased greatly since then.

baker-BM is a bit trickier to play correctly than most, which i think is part of why it's still underrated.  here are some helpful ground rules:

- good trashing helps a lot.  baker is similar to jack & gold-gainers in that regard, but trashing is even better in this case since baker is a cantrip.  this makes it easier to line up the trasher with junk cards compared to most other BM strategies, and the trashing also carries more benefit since it can allow you to play 4 or 5 bakers in a turn (vs. 1 jack).  and the beauty of coin tokens is that you can often trash and still get a baker that turn!

for example, on the 2-card kingdom of baker & remake, i would open remake/silver and keep the token.  with junk dealer, open junk dealer/silver then rush bakers with future $5s.  and so on.

- the tokens offer plenty of room for mistakes, but you can do fine sticking to some simple rules for them.  if you have $3 before tokens, take a silver.  if you have $4, always spend the 1 token for a baker.  if you have $5, do not spend a token for gold unless the bakers are gone!  baker is almost as good as gold here and is a much more limited pile, so you need to attack those.  if bakers have run out and you don't feel you have enough gold to start greening yet, then you can spend 1 token for a gold.  and of course, when greening, you want to use all your tokens to grab provinces early then base future token decisions on the game state.  knowing when to stockpile for one more province vs. grabbing duchies now is an important skill.

- as strong as baker is, you definitely still want some gold before greening.  in a very thin deck, just 1 gold is fine.  without trashing you'll probably want 2-3.  i used to make the mistake of not getting any gold, and that's a one-way ticket to frowntown.

- if your opponent is playing a different money strategy and ignoring bakers, you'll probably want to start greening after 5-6 bakers and the amount of gold described above.


see, who said money had to be boring~?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 06:15:06 pm by funkdoc »
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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #261 on: May 14, 2017, 08:31:56 pm »
0

Edit: Playing a Distant Lands cage match with Rabid on Sunday 18:00 UTC.
Is there a recording of this?
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #262 on: May 14, 2017, 11:33:50 pm »
+2

Edit: Playing a Distant Lands cage match with Rabid on Sunday 18:00 UTC.
Is there a recording of this?

Sadly, no.  I've got the game numbers.  I'm considering writing up a game report, but I need to muster up the energy.

Game #3596085
Game #3596379
Game #3596717
reroll
Game #3597007 - reroll
Game #3597061
Game #3597298
Game #3597745
Game #3598315
Game #3598655

funkdoc, I agree with everything in your post except the first sentence.  Baker is a fine supplement to a BM strategy with a solid non-draw terminal.  But Baker BM by itself is pretty weak.  By your own advice, we'd expect to see 2-3 Silver buys, 5-6 Baker buys, and 2-3 Gold buys.  More than 9 non-green buys is slowish big money.  Now, Baker BM does smooth out later turns better, so it seems reasonable against a weak Alt VP strategy.  But in a Province fight?  4 Provinces and no Duchies by turn 14 is slow.

Edit: Game report of the Distant Lands cage match.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 12:08:32 am by aku_chi »
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funkdoc

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #263 on: May 15, 2017, 12:04:48 am »
+1

aku_chi: without trashing you have more of a point, though even then baker has much better staying power than a lot of its competition.  strong trashing makes it quite a bit faster since you need less gold and the trashing shouldn't really hurt your ability to reach $5.  you should basically never need more than 2 silver in this deck; after the first couple shuffles it may be worth spending 2 tokens for a baker if you had to trash that turn.

also, it's not that rare for there to be another action card you can throw in with your baker stack in a money game.  this card would probably replace gold in the basic outline i described.
 that's more what i mean by it being great, not baker as a monolithic thing (though monolithic baker is still better than a lot of things we used to think were good).  that's exactly the paradigm i'm arguing against here!
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 12:08:05 am by funkdoc »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #264 on: May 15, 2017, 02:06:07 am »
+2

something many of the top players have figured out by now, that took me a while to catch up on, is that most non-drawing BM is better than most terminal draw BM.  i had always thought it was the other way around, but the simulators have uncovered some pretty shocking results.  did you know that dungeon-BM beats embassy-BM if both open 4/3?  or that navigator-BM beats smithy-BM?  or that swamp hag-BM beats cultist-BM?

Your post raises a lot of interesting points, but this is probably the result of the simulator not playing well against Swamp Hag.
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funkdoc

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #265 on: May 15, 2017, 09:30:03 am »
0

cultist also loses to witch-BM so i'm not so sure that's it.  breppert is the main person who's been doing all this work recently IIRC, and he could probably address this a lot better.

points matter a ton in BM, yo

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #266 on: May 15, 2017, 09:49:31 am »
+1

Well, now I'm more confused than ever.

Opening Remake/Silver and thinning your deck dramatically while also buying Bakers so that you can ultimately play 4-5 bakers a turn and a maybe one or two treasures sure sounds a lot more like a single-Province engine than BM to me.

Or is the distinction that if you don't play your whole deck every turn, it's not an engine, period?

Or is the distinction that an engine builds exponentially, seeks to gain pile control and end the game when it's ahead, whereas a BM deck greens early and continuously, forgets about pile control and the game simply ends usually whenever the Provinces are gone?

Maybe I'm letting Awaclus get to me with his "there's nothing between" statement. Where's the line in the sand that separates BM and engine?
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #267 on: May 15, 2017, 10:38:34 am »
+2

The trouble is "BM" is an antiquated term that loses lots of meaning, and "engine" shouldn't mean "any strategy where you have several Action cards". I'd call such strategies "Province rushes", which encompasses both TDBM, treasure flood BM, and more nonterminal money strategies like thin Baker decks. Ultimately all of these decks are trying to lock up the majority of points before a slower engine has the chance to catch up; they're about speed and short term consistency in value. Just like any other rush.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 10:39:40 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #268 on: May 16, 2017, 09:29:33 pm »
+2

In my experience, Artificer really shines in two scenarios. Number one: there are $2 cards you want a bunch of. Number two: cost reduction. I'll sometimes buy Artificer for its Peddler effect on other boards, but it has a hard time competing with other $5 options.

Number 3: boards where you can overdraw a lot. Menagerie (where it also serves as a helpful discard outlet), Scrying Pool, and City Quarter come to mind.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #269 on: May 16, 2017, 09:48:31 pm »
+1

In my experience, Artificer really shines in two scenarios. Number one: there are $2 cards you want a bunch of. Number two: cost reduction. I'll sometimes buy Artificer for its Peddler effect on other boards, but it has a hard time competing with other $5 options.

Number 3: boards where you can overdraw a lot. Menagerie (where it also serves as a helpful discard outlet), Scrying Pool, and City Quarter come to mind.

Oh yeah, good call. I tend to forget about that because those decks aren't very fun for me. I always feel bad making my opponent(s) wait while I carefully plan the end of an already long turn. I usually play very sub-optimally for sake of speed in those cases.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #270 on: May 16, 2017, 10:37:50 pm »
0

In my experience, Artificer really shines in two scenarios. Number one: there are $2 cards you want a bunch of. Number two: cost reduction. I'll sometimes buy Artificer for its Peddler effect on other boards, but it has a hard time competing with other $5 options.

Number 3: boards where you can overdraw a lot. Menagerie (where it also serves as a helpful discard outlet), Scrying Pool, and City Quarter come to mind.

Artificer is WAY better than people give it credit for.
Oh yeah, good call. I tend to forget about that because those decks aren't very fun for me. I always feel bad making my opponent(s) wait while I carefully plan the end of an already long turn. I usually play very sub-optimally for sake of speed in those cases.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #271 on: May 20, 2017, 03:23:17 pm »
0

something many of the top players have figured out by now, that took me a while to catch up on, is that most non-drawing BM is better than most terminal draw BM.  i had always thought it was the other way around, but the simulators have uncovered some pretty shocking results.  did you know that dungeon-BM beats embassy-BM if both open 4/3?  or that navigator-BM beats smithy-BM?  or that swamp hag-BM beats cultist-BM?

Can I see the scripts used for Dungeon vs Embassy and Navigator vs Smithy? Dungeon > Embassy, I can see it, free Silver in BM games is no joke and Dungeon filters so well. Navigator > Smithy feels very weird to me. Back when Isotropic was around, I solitaired Navigator-BM out of curiosity, and found it sometimes had dream draws where you discarding all your junk and hit 4 Provinces in 12-13 turns. But it was really inconsistent compared to Smithy-BM.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #272 on: May 20, 2017, 07:02:09 pm »
+1

something many of the top players have figured out by now, that took me a while to catch up on, is that most non-drawing BM is better than most terminal draw BM.  i had always thought it was the other way around, but the simulators have uncovered some pretty shocking results.  did you know that dungeon-BM beats embassy-BM if both open 4/3?  or that navigator-BM beats smithy-BM?  or that swamp hag-BM beats cultist-BM?

Can I see the scripts used for Dungeon vs Embassy and Navigator vs Smithy? Dungeon > Embassy, I can see it, free Silver in BM games is no joke and Dungeon filters so well. Navigator > Smithy feels very weird to me. Back when Isotropic was around, I solitaired Navigator-BM out of curiosity, and found it sometimes had dream draws where you discarding all your junk and hit 4 Provinces in 12-13 turns. But it was really inconsistent compared to Smithy-BM.

The key to Navigator BM is to discard, like, almost all the time. Basically unless it's a guaranteed Gold early or a Province mid, discard. It wins on cycling faster, increasing your average hand's value faster.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #273 on: May 20, 2017, 07:50:57 pm »
0

you don't discard once you start greening though, yes?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #274 on: May 20, 2017, 07:54:40 pm »
0

you don't discard once you start greening though, yes?

Depends on if the 5 cards are mostly green.
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