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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards  (Read 103512 times)

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McGarnacle

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #225 on: March 12, 2017, 10:58:29 pm »
0

Count I always thought was good. Options are good, and it sure gives you options.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #226 on: March 12, 2017, 11:28:32 pm »
0

Butcher and Count are too low. Hunting Party should have dropped harder. It's no longer the power card it once was.

How is Butcher too low?

Butcher should easily be in the top 10.

I'm fine with Count where it is, though.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #227 on: March 12, 2017, 11:41:44 pm »
0

I'm really curious to see where Cultist and Mountebank end up this time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #228 on: March 13, 2017, 12:18:53 am »
+1

(Apologies if it's already been discussed; I've been a bit out of the loop lately)

Surprised Margrave is above Ghost Ship.  I guess the 1 more card and buy are that important?  But GS is slightly better when stacked and just so, so powerful in the early game.  Not that Margrave isn't, but the not being able to cycle Estates or whatever is just so devastating.

Also surprised Legionary is so low.  I'd almost put it on-par with GS, maybe.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #229 on: March 13, 2017, 12:22:36 am »
+1

I'm really curious to see where Cultist and Mountebank end up this time.

1 and 2, not necessarily respectively.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #230 on: March 13, 2017, 01:00:32 am »
0

I'm really curious to see where Cultist and Mountebank end up this time.

1 and 2, not necessarily respectively.

I meant I wonder if Cultist will be 1.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #231 on: March 13, 2017, 04:37:08 am »
0

Butcher should easily be in the top 10.

...how? Surely Count is better than Butcher, it actually gets rid of your cards.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #232 on: March 13, 2017, 02:30:17 pm »
+4

I just completely don't get how you don't get Butcher.

There is no phase of the game where Butcher is anything but great. Early on, Estates become something else. Mid game, Silvers become components, cheap components become expensive components, etc. Late game, components become Provinces, or you mill Provinces. At any point you can even just play it terminal and hoard tokens, which isn't stellar but it's still pretty decent.

Like Butcher is a card that can singlehandedly make a weak engine worth going for even in the absence of other ways to gain multiple cards per turn. Saying "it doesn't make your deck thinner" is so profoundly missing the point that I just don't get it. Butcher is almost universally good, and almost any deck with the terminal space for it should have a few. It's so rarely skippable.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #233 on: March 13, 2017, 03:15:52 pm »
+3

I just completely don't get how you don't get Butcher.

There is no phase of the game where Butcher is anything but great. Early on, Estates become something else. Mid game, Silvers become components, cheap components become expensive components, etc. Late game, components become Provinces, or you mill Provinces. At any point you can even just play it terminal and hoard tokens, which isn't stellar but it's still pretty decent.

You can use Remodel to do all of those things except for the coin token thing, and Remodel is not a great $4 card.

Like Butcher is a card that can singlehandedly make a weak engine worth going for even in the absence of other ways to gain multiple cards per turn. Saying "it doesn't make your deck thinner" is so profoundly missing the point that I just don't get it. Butcher is almost universally good, and almost any deck with the terminal space for it should have a few. It's so rarely skippable.

It's a card that can singlehandedly make a weak engine worse than Butcher/BM, I'll grant you that. But saying that it doesn't make your deck thinner is, in fact, profoundly getting the point. The point is to get thinner and that's what Butcher doesn't do. Whether or not you have the terminal space for it is one question, but the more important question is: do you have the time for it? It costs a turn to buy a Butcher, and because it doesn't get you thin and it isn't an engine component, it needs to give you one full extra turn worth of benefit during the course of the game to be worth it. And yeah, usually it does that, but it doesn't do all that much more than that.

In games with super good trashing like Chapel or Count, Butcher is a lot better because it helps you out of that weird stage where you don't have any cards but somehow you'd need to turn that into a consistent engine. In other engine games, it doesn't really have a role to play, you just buy it because it's a good card. The fact that it doesn't have a role to play in a regular engine is super important.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #234 on: March 13, 2017, 03:35:17 pm »
+6

I just completely don't get how you don't get Butcher.

There is no phase of the game where Butcher is anything but great. Early on, Estates become something else. Mid game, Silvers become components, cheap components become expensive components, etc. Late game, components become Provinces, or you mill Provinces. At any point you can even just play it terminal and hoard tokens, which isn't stellar but it's still pretty decent.

You can use Remodel to do all of those things except for the coin token thing, and Remodel is not a great $4 card.


Okay at this point I honestly don't believe you're not fucking with me. Butcher is so much better than Remodel. It's not even CLOSE. "The coin token thing" is the whole reason the card works.

Every time you make an Estate into a Silver, a Silver into a 4 cost, or you mill a Province, you increase the power of future Butchers by not using those tokens. This makes it very easy to turn $5 costs into Provinces later on, or to change other Estates into $5 costs, or to even trash Curses into 3 costs if you're really in a pinch. Plus if you're desperate you can still use tokens in the normal fashion.

Remodel suffers from how rigid it is - it only goes up $2, it provides less benefit if you don't upgrade a card's cost, and it doesn't really help if you don't need it. Butcher goes up any amount of money, it provides MORE benefit if you don't upgrade the cost of a card, and it enables itself if you don't need it that turn.

Quote
Like Butcher is a card that can singlehandedly make a weak engine worth going for even in the absence of other ways to gain multiple cards per turn. Saying "it doesn't make your deck thinner" is so profoundly missing the point that I just don't get it. Butcher is almost universally good, and almost any deck with the terminal space for it should have a few. It's so rarely skippable.

It's a card that can singlehandedly make a weak engine worse than Butcher/BM, I'll grant you that. But saying that it doesn't make your deck thinner is, in fact, profoundly getting the point. The point is to get thinner and that's what Butcher doesn't do. Whether or not you have the terminal space for it is one question, but the more important question is: do you have the time for it? It costs a turn to buy a Butcher, and because it doesn't get you thin and it isn't an engine component, it needs to give you one full extra turn worth of benefit during the course of the game to be worth it. And yeah, usually it does that, but it doesn't do all that much more than that.

In games with super good trashing like Chapel or Count, Butcher is a lot better because it helps you out of that weird stage where you don't have any cards but somehow you'd need to turn that into a consistent engine. In other engine games, it doesn't really have a role to play, you just buy it because it's a good card. The fact that it doesn't have a role to play in a regular engine is super important.

The card isn't a thinner. No one is saying it is. No one is saying thinning isn't important! But it has nothing to do with thinning. It's like saying "Ghost Ship is worse than Ratcatcher because Ghost Ship doesn't thin your deck". It is that ridiculous of an argument. That is how little sense what you're saying makes.

To argue it has "no role to play in a regular engine" is just straight up ignorant. Like if this was the first post I read by you, I wouldn't believe you'd ever played a game with Butcher.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 03:36:51 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #235 on: March 13, 2017, 03:59:52 pm »
+8

I feel like there is some kind of misunderstanding here. Chris acts as though Awaclus claims that Butcher is garbage; which he clearly isn't. (He explicitly says "Butcher is a good card" in his post.) He doesn't say that Butcher isn't much better than Remodel; he's just pointing out that if most the reasons you think Butcher is great also apply to Remodel, maybe you should reconsider your argument.

Thing is that competition at the top of the $5 list is pretty stiff. Surely Butcher is a good card, but Awaclus is correct that it does not usually play a role in engines; i.e. there aren't many boards where Butcher makes an engine viable that otherwise wouldn't be. You will usually still add Butcher to your engine, but it's not a key card. Almost all other cards in that segment of the $5 list are major engines enablers (the exception being Royal Carriage).
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #236 on: March 13, 2017, 04:31:28 pm »
0

I feel like there is some kind of misunderstanding here. Chris acts as though Awaclus claims that Butcher is garbage; which he clearly isn't. (He explicitly says "Butcher is a good card" in his post.) He doesn't say that Butcher isn't much better than Remodel; he's just pointing out that if most the reasons you think Butcher is great also apply to Remodel, maybe you should reconsider your argument.

Thing is that competition at the top of the $5 list is pretty stiff. Surely Butcher is a good card, but Awaclus is correct that it does not usually play a role in engines; i.e. there aren't many boards where Butcher makes an engine viable that otherwise wouldn't be. You will usually still add Butcher to your engine, but it's not a key card. Almost all other cards in that segment of the $5 list are major engines enablers (the exception being Royal Carriage).

I was about to post a response to Chris I had typed, but it was a lot longer than this. Well done.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 04:32:37 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #237 on: May 09, 2017, 11:30:39 pm »
+8

With the intent to generate productive discussion, I will comprehensively discuss the cards I ranked significantly different from the community.  The threshold is 11 ranks different.  I'll start with the card the community ranked significantly higher than I did.  In case Qvist is keeping me honest, my personal rankings here might differ slightly from the ones I submitted, but I haven't changed them since the $5 cards list began.

Baker - Community:45 - Personal:69
Each year, I think that Baker is overrated and sure to drop in the community rankings.  This year is no different.  If we ignore the starting coin token on startup (which I believe we're supposed to), I'm never excited to see Baker in the kingdom.  The only games I've played where Baker is a key card is when it's the best target for +card from Pathfinding or Teacher.  I believe Baker is one of the weakest Peddler+ variants; I ranked it lower than Artificer, Market, and Emporium and stand by my decision.

Jester - Community:42 - Personal:63
I'm surprised by the community's high ranking of Jester.  Jester is a fine card, I suppose, but it often has a ton of competition as terminal payload.  As a junker, it's clearly weaker than the other $5 junkers - usually junking with Copper.  As a gainer, it can be good, but it's really inconsistent.  It feels so bad to reveal a card that has piled or an ambiguous card like Silver.  Jester is better with more players, and maybe I'm ranking it lower than it deserves due to variance.

Distant Lands- Community:36 - Personal:57
I was really shocked that Distant Lands was rated so highly.  In my experience, this card looks better than it is.  Some games end on piles, and Distant Lands are generally useless on these boards.  Other boards are gain-limited, and by the time you dip into non-Province VP, the guaranteed 3 VP from the Duchy is often more attractive than the potential 4 VP from Distant Lands.  There are certainly boards where Distant Lands will make the difference, but even on these boards it isn't super important to win the split.  Certainly, Triumph and Groundskeeper are stronger alternative VP than Distant Lands.

Archive- Community:50 - Personal:68
Yeah, I underrated Archive.  It's a strong card and might even rise in the rankings next year.  It isn't as generally useful as Laboratory (obviously), but it can be even better on boards with limited trashing.  Cool card.

Ghost Ship - Community:14 - Personal:28
Yeah, Ghost Ship has a brutal attack, but terminal +2 cards is so weak.  The Ghost Ship attack has quite a few counters (Guide is the best) and mitigaters (Herald, Enchantress, Chariot Race, etc..).  Also, the Ghost Ship attack doesn't stack with the other handsize attacks.  Those other handsize attacks, without exception, provide better payload; so Ghost Ship tends to be skippable on those boards.  I haven't played a non-Governor game where Ghost Ship was a super star in a long while.  All that said, Ghost Ship is a strong card, but overrated by the community, IMO.

Horn of Plenty - Community:28 - Personal:39
The allure of the Horn of Plenty megaturn is strong, it seems.  Sometimes it works, and it feels great (to the person who pulls it off).  But I expect that in fewer than 20% of the kingdoms with Horn of Plenty are HoP megaturn strategies optimal.  The HoP megaturn requires a lot of overdraw and consistency, which isn't always present.  And sometimes there's stronger payload.  And, sure, Horn of Plenty is a fine card as a non-terminal gainer of $5+ cards, but it isn't a top 30 $5 card for that.  For all that, it's a unique and powerful card.

And now, the larger list of cards I ranked significantly higher than the community.

Stables - Community:29 - Personal:18
I think I was off on this.  I rated Stables adjacent to Laboratory, which I can't defend at this point.  Stables is super good in games where it doesn't make sense to trash Copper (or it does make sense to Silver flood, or something), but it becomes a liability fast in games with strong trashing (though it's still often worth picking up, especially before you've finished trashing).

Trade - Community:62 - Personal:50
The community is coming around, but Trade is great.  Compare it to Embassy.  When Trade is on the board, any decent terminal draw BM becomes really fast and reliable.  So, I think Trade is a better indicator of a strong BM strategy than Embassy.  And Trade is also usually better for engines than Embassy.  The Silvers aren't always great in an engine, but if Trade is the only way to trash Estates, it surely pays off.  Trade is even stronger in games with junk (Witch + Trade is usually dominant, for example).

Treasure Trove - Community:53 - Personal:40
I probably overrated Treasure Trove.  It's great in BM and slogs and often a good one-of in some engines, but it can be a dead card on some engine boards.

Ball - Community:73 - Personal:60
I like the gainer events.  They can work around on-buy penalties.  Ball is great with spammable $4's (like Advisor or Caravan) and fantastic with cost reduction.

Festival - Community:58 - Personal:42
I believe I overrated Festival, though the community might have slightly underrated it.  On paper, Festival is comparable with Bandit Camp and Bazaar, but in practice that lack if draw makes a big difference.  So, Fesitval rarely competes with other villages in the same game, but acts as payload amplification - you plan to play it after drawing before your terminal payload.  And the non-terminal $2 and +buy is sometimes good enough payload if the engine enablers are strong enough.  And, sometimes, Festival is the only way to play additional actions, and you have to go for it even though you might prefer a vanilla Village.
   
Emporium - Community:76 - Personal:56
This one is tough.  Maybe I've mostly played in kingdoms where it's easy to pick up Patricians?  Or maybe my memory is biased towards those games?  In my limited experience, I believe Emporium has been a more impactful card than Baker.  But maybe it belongs lower because it isn't available in some games...

Windfall - Community:75 - Personal:51
This one is hard to evaluate.  It's usually worth buying Windfall in a game where you can activate the condition.  And activating the condition is pretty manageable when you only need $5 in your deck.  Compare with, say, Merchant Guild.  Merchant Guild is best in a draw-your-deck engine.  It gives +buy and smooths buys, but it's so much slower than Windfall.  Windfall keeps your terminal space free for draw and attacks.  I dunno.  I think they have similar power level.

And, the big three:

Storyteller - Community:48 - Personal:20
I do believe I overrated Storyteller a little bit, but boy is it stronger than the community gives it credit for.  My whole strategy changes sometimes when Storyteller is on the board.  The amount of draw it can produce is massive.  If there's a way to ensure that you start your hand with a Storyteller (e.g. Gear, Save, Scheme, Count, etc...), you can gain Silver and Gold without limit and draw your deck with ease.  Storyteller is also good early to cycle through Coppers to see your buys faster (especially important with trashers and travellers).  And Storyteller is good in single-terminal money decks that just want to play that key terminal (e.g. a junker or Haggler) as frequently as possible and buy a Province, too.  Then, there are the cute tricks you can pull off with playing kingdom treaures during your action phase (e.g Coin of the Realm, Treasure Trove).  Storyteller is a great card.

Seaway - Community:71 - Personal:41
Seaway is great.  Extra buys give a lot of pile control.  Seaway is barely even a cost; I'm willing to overpay once for the cards that are good Seaway targets (and there are a LOT of good Seaway targets - like any of the $4 villages).  Plus, it works around on-buy restrictions like Ball.  Woefully underrated.

Triumph - Community:46 - Personal:16
Ya'all goofed.  Triumph is the real deal.  On boards with Triumph and additional gains, it's often incorrect to buy Province.  You can generate an obscene amount of points from Triumph buys; ignore it at your own peril.  Yeah, Triumph is pretty weak in games without additional gains, but those are rare.  And it's pretty trivial for Triumph to be a better buy than Duchy (e.g. Play Bandit, buy Triumph).  And you can buy it earlier in the game with the intent to trash the Estate: sustainable (while Estates last)!  The only sad thing about Triumph is that the games where Triumph could generate the most points are most likely to end on 3-piles, so Triumph will have only a minor impact.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #238 on: May 10, 2017, 10:04:38 am »
+2

Quote
Other boards are gain-limited, and by the time you dip into non-Province VP, the guaranteed 3 VP from the Duchy is often more attractive than the potential 4 VP from Distant Lands.

There's your problem - you're treating Distant Lands like Duchy. You basically never buy Distant Lands when you would buy Duchy - you only buy it when you wouldn't buy Duchy.

You're also treating Distant Lands as a "not a Province consolation prize" that you only get after greening for provinces. Also wrong! You often go hard into Distant Lands before you pick up any Provinces at all. Imagine an engine mirror where you go for Distant Lands when your opponent goes Provinces. You end up not that far behind but with several fewer stop cards, and you can clean up the last few Provinces to take the lead and win.

Totally agreed on Triumph though - it is one of the strongest events in the game. It basically guarantees that whomever can end the game wins. It's crazy.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #239 on: May 10, 2017, 10:25:43 am »
0

It basically guarantees that whomever can end the game wins.

Isn't whomever ends the game always the one who wins though?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #240 on: May 10, 2017, 10:27:49 am »
+1

It basically guarantees that whomever can end the game wins.

Isn't whomever ends the game always the one who wins though?

2 big exceptions to this... both which apply more to IRL play than online. One, a player who has given up hope, and would rather move on to the next game than fight on for a 1% chance that he can come back. Two, a player who hasn't tracked the  score perfectly and isn't sure if he is winning or not, or thinks he is winning but miscounted.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #241 on: May 10, 2017, 10:32:36 am »
+6

It basically guarantees that whomever can end the game wins.

Isn't whomever ends the game always the one who wins though?

"whomever can end the game" is a different statement than "whomever does end the game".

Many times in normal Dominion games, you can end the game, but you would lose if you did so, and thus you choose not to. Triumph makes these cases very, very, very rare.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #242 on: May 10, 2017, 10:57:24 am »
0

It is frustrating when I play against a Baker Idiot and lose. I mean it's my own fault when it happens, but still a real kick in the teeth.

I think Baker is definitely better than you're giving it credit, aku_chi. I would rank it above Emporium and Artificer for sure in terms of general utility. There are games where Artificer and Emporium are more important, but even in those games I'm probably picking up a Baker or two after I have a couple Artificers or the Emporiums have run out.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #243 on: May 10, 2017, 11:54:37 am »
+1

It is frustrating when I play against a Baker Idiot and lose. I mean it's my own fault when it happens, but still a real kick in the teeth.

Still not as bad as losing to a Village Idiot. At least Baker Idiot is a deck archetype (according to Awaclus anyway).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #244 on: May 10, 2017, 01:22:45 pm »
0

I have to agree that Baker is a weak peddler variant. If you spend the coin this turn, it's a Peddler variant that does nothing, which the community has agreed is worth $4. If you don't spend the coin this turn, it's a do-nothing cantrip, like a Pawn with no choices or a Pearl Diver that doesn't peek; the community has proposed that an actual do-nothing cantrip would likely be priced at $1. So Baker is a $5 that can either act like a $4 or a $1.

The fact that it gives coin tokens instead of coins is more of an edge case. The thing about coin tokens is that they're only valuable when they smooth out your buys, allowing you to hit $5 and $5 instead of $4 and $6, or possibly even $8 and $16 instead of $12 and $12 if you really want to stretch.

Smoothing out buys over multiple turns is mostly useful in BM when you're trying to hit $8 or $11. With a deck-drawing engine, the difference between coin tokens and coin is almost irrelevant, other than a couple of engine-building buys early. But cantrip-money in general is weak in BM. So Baker's got a built-in anti-synergy.

Sure, there's plenty of "depends on the kingdom" cases, such as $5-gainers, Butcher, etc., and possibly slogs, though I'm not convinced that saving up tokens over multiple turns for VP cards is an efficient use of resources, even in a slog.

Compare it with Artificer: Even playing a single Artificer, discard 3, play two coppers allows you to gain two $3s. Two Artificers and Copper+Silver allows a gain $3, buy $5 or gain $4 buy $4 (kinda Baker-ish smoothing, no? but two gains per play!) If an engine is feasible, Artificer is much more powerful, not to mention that it happily discards green cards for benefit.



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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #245 on: May 10, 2017, 01:33:33 pm »
0

I have to agree that Baker is a weak peddler variant. If you spend the coin this turn, it's a Peddler variant that does nothing, which the community has agreed is worth $4. If you don't spend the coin this turn, it's a do-nothing cantrip, like a Pawn with no choices or a Pearl Diver that doesn't peek; the community has proposed that an actual do-nothing cantrip would likely be priced at $1. So Baker is a $5 that can either act like a $4 or a $1.

Eh, I agree with your conclusion but that's not how prices work. A hypothetical Chapel for $5 would be one of the strongest $5s.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #246 on: May 10, 2017, 02:03:36 pm »
+8

I have to agree that Baker is a weak peddler variant. If you spend the coin this turn, it's a Peddler variant that does nothing, which the community has agreed is worth $4. If you don't spend the coin this turn, it's a do-nothing cantrip, like a Pawn with no choices or a Pearl Diver that doesn't peek; the community has proposed that an actual do-nothing cantrip would likely be priced at $1. So Baker is a $5 that can either act like a $4 or a $1.

This is of course nonsense. It implies that not spending the Coin token this turn is equivalent to not getting it at all. What? Huh?

It's more like a choice between a fairly strong $4 effect (Peddler) and another $4 effect (Caravan Guard wo/Reaction except you can save the +$1 beyond your next turn AND it doesn't miss shuffles as much because it's not a Duration), but unlike with Band of Misfits, you don't have to decide which of the two effects you get when you play the card. That seems like a pretty great $5 card to me.

Compare it with Artificer: Even playing a single Artificer, discard 3, play two coppers allows you to gain two $3s. Two Artificers and Copper+Silver allows a gain $3, buy $5 or gain $4 buy $4 (kinda Baker-ish smoothing, no? but two gains per play!) If an engine is feasible, Artificer is much more powerful, not to mention that it happily discards green cards for benefit.

You have a double standard here. "Not to mention that it happily discards green cards for benefit"? If we're assuming an engine, ain't gonna be no green cards 'til the very end, and I run up against that problem constantly when playing with Artificer. Not to mention there often aren't $3 cards you want to load up on, so you either get to waste the $ that e.g. your Militia will generate this turn, or you get to not use Artificer's ability.

In my experience, Artificer really shines in two scenarios. Number one: there are $2 cards you want a bunch of. Number two: cost reduction. I'll sometimes buy Artificer for its Peddler effect on other boards, but it has a hard time competing with other $5 options.
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Seprix

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #247 on: May 10, 2017, 02:09:48 pm »
+2

I have to agree that Baker is a weak peddler variant. If you spend the coin this turn, it's a Peddler variant that does nothing, which the community has agreed is worth $4.

According to my knowledge, a Peddler worth $4 is overpowered, and the cost is more like $4.5 or something to the effect. Case in point: Poacher, which has a built in nerfing effect so you cannot simply pile them without consequences.

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If you don't spend the coin this turn, it's a do-nothing cantrip, like a Pawn with no choices or a Pearl Diver that doesn't peek; the community has proposed that an actual do-nothing cantrip would likely be priced at $1. So Baker is a $5 that can either act like a $4 or a $1.

With the same logic, Groundskeeper is just a $1 cost worth card worth $5. You're ignoring the flexible economy with tokens. Yes, you don't get instant benefit when saving up, but coin tokens are so incredibly powerful as a reserve threat for pile control. The threat of spiking a Province buy or emptying piles (assuming +buy) at any point is great pile control.

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The fact that it gives coin tokens instead of coins is more of an edge case. The thing about coin tokens is that they're only valuable when they smooth out your buys, allowing you to hit $5 and $5 instead of $4 and $6, or possibly even $8 and $16 instead of $12 and $12 if you really want to stretch.

That is not all Coin Tokens are good for, as I have discussed already.

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Smoothing out buys over multiple turns is mostly useful in BM when you're trying to hit $8 or $11. With a deck-drawing engine, the difference between coin tokens and coin is almost irrelevant, other than a couple of engine-building buys early. But cantrip-money in general is weak in BM. So Baker's got a built-in anti-synergy.

I don't think I would use more than one Baker in a BM strategy. Baker is a terrible BM card.

The difference between coin tokens and coin is not irrelevant. I certainly don't need to explain the virtues of saving up tokens, and holding off on buying sometimes.

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Sure, there's plenty of "depends on the kingdom" cases, such as $5-gainers, Butcher, etc., and possibly slogs, though I'm not convinced that saving up tokens over multiple turns for VP cards is an efficient use of resources, even in a slog.

Compare it with Artificer: Even playing a single Artificer, discard 3, play two coppers allows you to gain two $3s. Two Artificers and Copper+Silver allows a gain $3, buy $5 or gain $4 buy $4 (kinda Baker-ish smoothing, no? but two gains per play!) If an engine is feasible, Artificer is much more powerful, not to mention that it happily discards green cards for benefit.

Artificer is one of the best Dominion cards out there. Baker is certainly not a fantastic card, but it is far from weak.

Junk Dealer
Grand Market
Artificer
Peddler
Emporium
Bazaar
Highway
Poacher
Baker
Merchant
Market
Oasis
Caravan Guard
Treasury


This is about where I have Baker in terms of Peddlers. I know there's the tired expression of it depends on the board and you're talking about overall use, but it really is pretty pointless to discuss the power of a card without looking at the other nine, and the surrounding Events, Landmarks and other conditionals. For example, without +Buy, Baker becomes a lot weaker. With Donate, Junk Dealer becomes a not so great card. With constant discard attacks, it is hard to justify getting an Artificer.

edit: LastFootnote beat me to the punch :'(
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 02:10:56 pm by Seprix »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #248 on: May 10, 2017, 02:13:14 pm »
+2

According to my knowledge, a Peddler worth $4 is overpowered, and the cost is more like $4.5 or something to the effect. Case in point: Poacher, which has a built in nerfing effect so you cannot simply pile them without consequences.

That's still not how prices work.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #249 on: May 10, 2017, 02:24:15 pm »
+3

According to my knowledge, a Peddler worth $4 is overpowered, and the cost is more like $4.5 or something to the effect. Case in point: Poacher, which has a built in nerfing effect so you cannot simply pile them without consequences.
5 is a lot more than 4. Also poacher is defiantly on the weaker end of 4s. The time where Poacher is strong is on the opening and when you much rather would open something cool like upgrade or the like than a peddler(which true purpose early is to hit 5.)


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I don't think I would use more than one Baker in a BM strategy. Baker is a terrible BM card.
Baker is a worse engine card. You would way rather do effective payload rather than 1 coin token per baker per turn.

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The difference between coin tokens and coin is not irrelevant. I certainly don't need to explain the virtues of saving up tokens, and holding off on buying sometimes.
It mostly is once you are drawing your deck. If you are saving up token than you probably are doing something wrong, Your opponent cay spend that money towards cards that contribute to their deck it will probably pay off in less than 2 turns.

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