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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards  (Read 103533 times)

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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #200 on: March 04, 2017, 10:47:00 am »
+2

werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #201 on: March 04, 2017, 12:08:26 pm »
0

Who the hell voted Knights as first

Also, looks like Royal Carriage is a big winner this year, and Count and Bridge Troll have also risen.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #202 on: March 04, 2017, 12:38:28 pm »
+1

Jester!
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #203 on: March 04, 2017, 12:39:46 pm »
0

Haunted Woods and Wild Hunt only 2 spots away from each other is insane.

Crown is overrated, and I'm also sceptical about RC's placement.
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Willvon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #204 on: March 04, 2017, 04:18:15 pm »
+1

Is Haunted Woods really that much better than Swamp Hag?  Obviously, it's attack is better later in the game than Swamp Hag because curses will have run out, but 9 points better? 

Also, of the next 14 cards behind it in the list, I would rank at least 1/2 of them ahead of Haunted Woods, including Rabble.  I would think Rabble has about as good a chance of hurting your opponent as Haunted Woods, and it gives you the immediate draw rather than waiting. Also, your opponent can just not buy cards that turn and avoid the attack, but unless you have a Moat in hand or have Lighthouse out, Rabble will always at least possibly make you discard a payload card you wanted to draw.  If there is something I am not appreciating about it that makes Haunted Woods significantly better, I would appreciate the insight.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #205 on: March 04, 2017, 04:50:48 pm »
+1

Is Haunted Woods really that much better than Swamp Hag?  Obviously, it's attack is better later in the game than Swamp Hag because curses will have run out, but 9 points better? 

Also, of the next 14 cards behind it in the list, I would rank at least 1/2 of them ahead of Haunted Woods, including Rabble.  I would think Rabble has about as good a chance of hurting your opponent as Haunted Woods, and it gives you the immediate draw rather than waiting. Also, your opponent can just not buy cards that turn and avoid the attack, but unless you have a Moat in hand or have Lighthouse out, Rabble will always at least possibly make you discard a payload card you wanted to draw.  If there is something I am not appreciating about it that makes Haunted Woods significantly better, I would appreciate the insight.

So, I think Qvist emphasized the attack of Haunted Woods too much in his video.  I think the duration draw is often more important.  Swamp Hag certainly has a stronger attack than Haunted Woods.  But duration +3 cards is a really powerful effect.  If you're drawing your deck, alternating a pair of Haunted Woods is arguably stronger than having two Hirelings in play.  It's a huge boost to reliability.  Using Haunted Woods for your only source of draw isn't pleasant, but you need a compelling reason not to play with at least two of them whenever they're on the board.  The first two Haunted Woods (ignoring the attack) are almost always more valuable than the first two Smithies, though their marginal value declines faster.

The attack part of Haunted Woods has a large impact on your opponent, but the impact isn't always negative.  So, it has a higher ceiling and a lower floor than Rabble.  Also, Rabble is an attack that gets stronger the more you play (up to a limit).  Haunted Woods's attack also emphasizes that you usually want to play just one per turn.  Both attacks punish early greening and get stronger if there is no way to trash Estates.  They also get stronger when combined with a junker.  Haunted Woods's attack can be worked around with non-buy gaining - even in the situations where it's good.  So, overall, I think Rabble has the stronger attack.  With enough action splitting, there's no reason not to get both if they appear in the same kingdom!  In that situation, I'd buy two Haunted Woods and then switch to Rabbles.

That said, I did rank Haunted Woods a little lower than the community and Rabble a little higher, but they weren't large discrepancies.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #206 on: March 04, 2017, 05:25:34 pm »
0

Apprentice seems high. Same for Lab. Crown is fine. Throne variants are better than some people realize.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #207 on: March 04, 2017, 06:22:38 pm »
0

Apprentice seems high. Same for Lab. Crown is fine. Throne variants are better than some people realize.

Throne Room is fine where it is on the $4 first, but Crown suffers from the $5 price point the same way all splitters do.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #208 on: March 04, 2017, 08:55:23 pm »
+5

splitters

Please don't indulge Awaclus
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #209 on: March 05, 2017, 02:26:14 am »
0

splitters

Please don't indulge Awaclus

So pointing out that someone should be using better words in order to have a better understanding of Dominion strategy is bad, but pointing out that someone should be using crappier words in order to avoid using the same words that Awaclus is using is good. Okay.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #210 on: March 05, 2017, 05:41:13 am »
+1

Second part of reason is that swamp hag was overrated as it isn't that good. Its ignorable for engine with any trasher better than trade route. With duration and missing shuffles its so slow that it doesn't gives many curses early and later opponent could trash gained junk next turn. If you add gainers, spending turns while hag is in play trashing and that buying two 5 engine components happens late and earlier one could just get one five cost and curse instead several cheaper components. Last as terminal money it isn't very effective engine payload. 

Crown looks fine as treasure part adds reliability that throne room lacks, getting throne room with only two terminals is usually mistake as you draw it dead. Also it improves reliability by reducing needed engine payload, 2 crowns and 2 golds are same as two golds and you could use these crowns to draw you deck but no golds..
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 05:50:39 am by luser »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #211 on: March 05, 2017, 06:58:35 am »
+1

Swamp Hag is appropriately rated on this list, but if you are playing Swamp Hags such that they give out a single Curse per buy, you are playing them extremely poorly and don't understand how they are supposed to work. You should be stacking multiples of them during the middle to end game and you should avoid playing them early to leave Curses in the pile to keep the pseudo pin alive on borderline-engine boards.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #212 on: March 05, 2017, 07:58:53 am »
0

To Swamp Hag's credit, Curses gained due to Swamp Hag are more likely to show up in an opening hand since, and possibly in bursts, because you (generally) have no chance to trash the Curses before you draw up again after cleanup. With a card like Witch you gain the Curses after you have drawn your starting cards and so it is slightly easier for your draw to kick off and find the newly gained Curses to trash.
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terminalCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #213 on: March 05, 2017, 08:31:17 am »
0

Is Haunted Woods really that much better than Swamp Hag?  Obviously, it's attack is better

Let me tell you a story: The difference between coins and cards is huge.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #214 on: March 05, 2017, 10:23:23 am »
+10

splitters

Please don't indulge Awaclus

I disagree with most of what Awaclus says, and I really dislike his style of discussion as a whole.

That being said, it feels like there's a lot of people who are throwing insults his way for no reason at all lately. Whether or not splitter is the best possible term, I'm pretty sure Awaclus isn't the only one who uses it, and as far as I know he didn't create it (I could be wrong). But either way, using the term is not "indulging Awaclus", and even if it were, the fact that Awaclus is the one being indulged is not relevant the the question of whether or not it's a good term.

As for the term itself, it's one of many possible and valid terms to use for this. I don't personally use it, but it's fine and accurate to what it does.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #215 on: March 05, 2017, 10:42:52 am »
+2

To Swamp Hag's credit, Curses gained due to Swamp Hag are more likely to show up in an opening hand since, and possibly in bursts, because you (generally) have no chance to trash the Curses before you draw up again after cleanup. With a card like Witch you gain the Curses after you have drawn your starting cards and so it is slightly easier for your draw to kick off and find the newly gained Curses to trash.

This is especially relevant when you trash out-of-deck, like Lookout, Sentry, or Doctor.

Second part of reason is that swamp hag was overrated as it isn't that good. Its ignorable for engine with any trasher better than trade route. With duration and missing shuffles its so slow that it doesn't gives many curses early and later opponent could trash gained junk next turn.

There are some trashers that are good at removing most of your starting cards, but struggle to trash Curses (the previously mentioned three plus Ratcatcher).  There are plenty of engine boards where there is no way to trash Curses.  There are plenty of engine boards where the trashing is terminal and terminal space is precious.  And there are other boards where your opponent doesn't have a good Curse trasher anymore after the early game (Raze, Donate, remodeling or Bonfiring your other trasher).  Finally, a single Swamp Hag can be more oppressive than a single Witch in an engine mirror, because your opponent might want to buy more than one card.

If you ignore Swamp Hag in engine mirrors, you will lose games.

On the other hand, Swamp Hag's attack can be worked around with gainers or events.  For that reason, it's ignorable on some boards without trashing, which most junkers are not.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 10:47:07 am by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #216 on: March 05, 2017, 10:45:57 am »
0

That being said, it feels like there's a lot of people who are throwing insults his way for no reason at all lately.

RSP fallout?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #217 on: March 05, 2017, 02:11:03 pm »
0

I wonder where Witch will end up. tbh surprised it's above Lab. I'm not sure I disagree with that-just don't really know enough to decide. Certainly I often find cursing to be somewhat irrelevant if there's good trashing and I don't win the split by much. Other strong terminals can really conflict too, and I often draw stuff dead with Witch why I kinda like Lab better. Goons is one of the main ones that conflicts, and you also got stuff like Margrave. Things that can benefit from Curses, even just a little, like Gardens, Fairgrounds, and Quest(attack lol) make me wary of Witch, while Lab is rarely ever a bad investment, mostly only if Hunting Party is on the board too.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 10:36:11 pm by Omastar68 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #218 on: March 05, 2017, 03:44:06 pm »
+3

I wonder where Witch will end up. tbh surprised it's above Lab. I'm not sure I disagree with that-just don't really know enough to decide. Certainly I often find cursing to be somewhat irrelevant if there's good trashing and I don't win the split by much. Other strong terminals can really conflict too, and I often draw stuff dead with Witch why I kinda like Lab better. Goons is one of the main ones that conflicts, and you also got stuff like Margrave. Things that can benefit from Curses, even just a little, like Gardens, Fairgrounds, and Quest make me wary of Witch, while Lab is rarely ever a bad investment, mostly only if Hunting Party is on the board too.

There is all this talk about "good trashing", but very few trashers can make it so that you aren't behind a player who opened Witch or some other junker without getting the junker yourself at some point. Junker + trasher is often the way to go. I don't know if that has changed much on average since Empires.

Also don't underestimate the power of a mid-game junker that comes in once engines are starting to come together. Aku_chi just made a good point here about some trashers being great early, when even more restrictive trashers usually find trashing targets, but become less reliable once you have more good cards in your deck. Cards like Sentry, Lookout, and Doctor come to mind. Even Steward is a card you'd rather not waste on trashing in the midgame when draw and coins would otherwise be more attractive options. The result is that a midgame junker can sneak in some Curses and other Junk that remain by the end of the game.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 05:14:14 pm by markusin »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #219 on: March 05, 2017, 04:48:35 pm »
+3

Junking is really strong. Even in the worst case scenario, handing out a Curse is, edge cases aside, equivalent to handing out a -card token some time in your opponent's next shuffle, and if Witch did literally that instead of junking, you would still buy it in a lot of situations. However, unless your opponent already has an overdrawing engine, it's better — if he draws exactly his deck, that Curse might be just enough to prevent his engine from functioning at all which can be super important, and if the Curse hangs around for a second shuffle, it's twice as bad.

What's noteworthy about junking is that you need fast cycling to combat it, and junking itself slows your cycling down significantly. You can most obviously see this in Ambassador games, where one player ends up with a super thin deck pretty fast while the other player is probably not at all thin at that point, because a very small advantage in the early game (such as not colliding Ambs) can lead to a very dramatic difference a few shuffles later. This is also why you need both trashing and junking — trashing lets you play your junking more frequently, while junking makes your opponent play his trashing less frequently.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #220 on: March 12, 2017, 02:23:29 pm »
+1

Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #221 on: March 12, 2017, 03:18:07 pm »
0

Counterfeit and Count should be higher, Ghost Ship is overrated. Butcher might be overrated as well. The problem with Butcher is that, while its effect is definitely very strong, it's at its best at the stage when you want to get rid of your cards, but it doesn't actually get rid of your cards unless it can directly turn them into engine components, which it usually does a pretty clumsy job at even when the kingdom allows it. It's good for big money and slog games, but those aren't really very common.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #222 on: March 12, 2017, 04:34:17 pm »
+1

Butcher and Count are too low. Hunting Party should have dropped harder. It's no longer the power card it once was.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #223 on: March 12, 2017, 04:48:59 pm »
0

Butcher and Count are too low. Hunting Party should have dropped harder. It's no longer the power card it once was.

How is Butcher too low?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #224 on: March 12, 2017, 08:30:49 pm »
0

So Upgrade is now in the top 10.  People really like cantrip trashing.
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