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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards  (Read 103541 times)

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weety4

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #125 on: February 09, 2017, 09:21:49 am »
0

Anyhow, you have an interesting definition of "obvious" and "fact" here. It's kind of douchey to conflate your own opinion with objective truth, tristan.
You can claim that I am another poster if you wish but I am new here. Given that you obviously hold some sort of grudge against me or the guy you confuse me with it is not surprising that it is not possible to rationally discuss Dominion with you. Not that such a discussion is possible with flat-eathers in the first place.

Whether you like it or not, it is a fact that Grand Market is generally better than Lab. If it isn't, feel free to explain why the game designer made GMs much harder to get than Labs.
For the same reason Festival is better than Village; combined with a Smithy the combo is 2 Labs vs. Lab+GM. Unsurprisingly
the average card in a deck is worse than Charm.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #126 on: February 09, 2017, 09:27:42 am »
+2

You can claim that I am another poster if you wish but I am new here.

And yet your opinion is apparently more valid than the opinion of those who are not new here.
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weety4

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #127 on: February 09, 2017, 09:33:09 am »
0

You can claim that I am another poster if you wish but I am new here.

And yet your opinion is apparently more valid than the opinion of those who are not new here.
A weird variation of argument from authority: "I have been here longer than you so I am smarter". Shall we call it argument from tradition? You soldier, police officer or just ordinary reactionary dude?

At least this nonsense is moderately entertaining.  ;D
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 09:34:22 am by weety4 »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #128 on: February 09, 2017, 09:48:55 am »
+2

You can claim that I am another poster if you wish but I am new here.

And yet your opinion is apparently more valid than the opinion of those who are not new here.
A weird variation of argument from authority: "I have been here longer than you so I am smarter". Shall we call it argument from tradition? You soldier, police officer or just ordinary reactionary dude?

At least this nonsense is moderately entertaining.  ;D

I'm not currently working as a soldier, but technically I am one.

Anyway, argument from authority is not a logical fallacy when we're talking about people who actually are experts on the field in question.
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weety4

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #129 on: February 09, 2017, 09:51:49 am »
0

Anyway, argument from authority is not a logical fallacy when we're talking about people who actually are experts on the field in question.
Like you. As opposed to the game designer who priced the cards totally horribly. Which is why the game is broken and why you are so interested in it.

Man, at least arguing like in topsy-turvy land is fun.  8)
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Miked

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #130 on: February 09, 2017, 10:04:51 am »
+2

Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

Purely in terms of action splitting Festival is a $5 Necropolis, which isn't very good and is obviously much worse than a regular Village. In a real game if Festival is useful then Village will be too, if Village is useful then the +buy from Festival needs to be important otherwise it's not going to add much as there's always ways to add money to a deck.
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #131 on: February 09, 2017, 10:08:45 am »
0

Cost not correlating with power isn't just "well chapel is an exception". Cost controls a few things: 1. perception of power 2. accessibility.

The classic example isn't Chapel, but Courtyard. [...]

We can also consider 3 cost cards, where the top 5 3 costs are certainly better than the vast majority of 4's, and the primary difference in costing 3 is that these cards can be opened with twice.

Anyhow, you have an interesting definition of "obvious" and "fact" here. It's kind of douchey to conflate your own opinion with objective truth, tristan. I think Lab is ultimately "better" in the sense that is more often a more important card. Why? Because while GM provides a lot of valuable resources, the only *scarce* resource it provides is +Buy. You can get coins from any number of sources, and while GM is a strong source of coin, it is somewhat frequently not fast enough to justify going out of your way for it. Lab is one of, what, maybe five nonterminal draw cards in the game? This is huge! Even terminal draw is a scarce resource, and Lab is one of the very, very few cards that gives you a solid chance of building an engine without any real +Action. That's amazing.

While you are making some good, even great points why cost and power are not strictly positively associated for card costs of $1 to $4, it would be more of a challenge to argue in a similar way for $5+ cards. Adventurer is worse than Lab but he has been phased out for precisely that reason. An argument may be made for Forge being forced out of the opening but then I'd prefer Chapel over Forge in the opening enyways. Also, I am reading your argument about Lab vs GM in the way that you would buy GM over Lab in most cases if given the chance to get either, while there sometimes may be reasons (poor trashing, no attractive cheap cards worth a +Buy) to prefer Lab over GM. I'd tend to think that these occasions are few and far between.
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #132 on: February 09, 2017, 10:10:56 am »
0

Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

Grand Market is also of more use in the late (engine) game when you draw your deck anyway, and Lab would just get you extra cards from an empty deck.
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #133 on: February 09, 2017, 10:26:40 am »
0

At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.
Was the point of this post something else than to insult a forum member that sometimes voices opinions that differ from your own?
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Miked

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #134 on: February 09, 2017, 10:28:21 am »
0

Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

Grand Market is also of more use in the late (engine) game when you draw your deck anyway, and Lab would just get you extra cards from an empty deck.
Not necessarily. Overdrawing allows you to do a number of things such as adding green and retaining the ability to draw everything or using gainers to gain and play cards on the same turn, both of which can be much more important than the money and buy from Grand Market.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2017, 10:29:10 am »
0

Sorry, what were we arguing about? I seem to have lost the thread of the debate.
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2017, 10:30:29 am »
0

There is definitely no card in Dominion which costs 5 and is "super better" than a card which is priced at 6.
Because we all know that Mountebank is worse than Gold.
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2017, 10:51:51 am »
0

There is definitely no card in Dominion which costs 5 and is "super better" than a card which is priced at 6.
Because we all know that Mountebank is worse than Gold.
It's not "super better". It's not ignorable but I won't like to have more than two in most decks while I gladly would buy a fourth Gold for $6.
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #138 on: February 09, 2017, 10:57:29 am »
+3

There is definitely no card in Dominion which costs 5 and is "super better" than a card which is priced at 6.
Because we all know that Mountebank is worse than Gold.
It's not "super better". It's not ignorable but I won't like to have more than two in most decks while I gladly would buy a fourth Gold for $6.
I would also add 9 Pearl Divers to my deck but not usually more than 1 Chapel. Chapel is still super better than Pearl Diver.

EDIT: To put it another way: If you aren't allowed to buy Mountebank and I'm not allowed to buy Gold, I will win 90-93% of the games including those cards. Thus, Mountebank is super better than Gold.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 11:00:30 am by faust »
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #139 on: February 09, 2017, 11:01:55 am »
+3

So many notifications on this thread.

Oh, Qvist hasn't posted the next part of the list?

Never mind, back to my "work" day.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #140 on: February 09, 2017, 11:06:05 am »
+2

As long as terminal draw is on the board Festival is good.

I disagree. Without trashing, Festival just isn't reliable enough. If there's no trashing or weak trashing, I will prefer any drawing village over Festival. I might still get a Festival if it's the only +Buy, but I'm not going to use it as my main village.
Festival and Smithy is equivalent to a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Village and Smithy is equivalent to two Labs.

So the former is better unless the average card in your deck provides more than "+2 Coins, +1 Buy". Which is unlikely if there is no trashing.

Giving that the former is better for a moment, the point is that the former is harder to get. You need to have both Festival and Smithy within 5 cards of each other. Whereas Village and Smithy need to be within 6 cards of each other. Or more when there's more villages. A hand of 3 Villages gives you 3 changes to find that Smithy in your deck. 3 Festivals makes it much less likely you'll ever get that Smithy.

And on top of that, you're comparing a card to a card.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #141 on: February 09, 2017, 11:09:17 am »
+1

At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.
Was the point of this post something else than to insult a forum member that sometimes voices opinions that differ from your own?

I don't care if people disagree with me; I might actually be wrong. It happens. Maybe Grand Market sucks and Laboratory is the best card in the universe. Whatever.

What I care about is the tone of the discussion, and somehow it always turns highly annoying and/or nasty with Awaclus in it.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #142 on: February 09, 2017, 11:13:44 am »
0

Anyway, argument from authority is not a logical fallacy when we're talking about people who actually are experts on the field in question.
Like you. As opposed to the game designer who priced the cards totally horribly. Which is why the game is broken and why you are so interested in it.

Man, at least arguing like in topsy-turvy land is fun.  8)

It's funny that you accuse me of a logical fallacy and now you're the one actually using that very fallacy in an actually fallacious way. Donald X. is an expert at game design, not necessarily at playing.

Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

That's what you might think, but the exact opposite is true. Lab is stronger than Grand Market in the early game, when you're not drawing your deck yet. A deck that draws itself and produces $5 is a way stronger deck than a deck that produces $8 on average, but takes 3 turns to draw itself, because of how much faster it is to add new components to the former deck. That's why you always build your engine first and then add payload. On the other hand, when you're already drawing your deck, it doesn't help much to add more cards that draw, because there's nothing more to draw, and that's when you want payload, such as Grand Market.
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #143 on: February 09, 2017, 11:19:32 am »
+2

At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.
Was the point of this post something else than to insult a forum member that sometimes voices opinions that differ from your own?

I don't care if people disagree with me; I might actually be wrong. It happens. Maybe Grand Market sucks and Laboratory is the best card in the universe. Whatever.

What I care about is the tone of the discussion, and somehow it always turns highly annoying and/or nasty with Awaclus in it.
And so you thought "I will work on making the tone less annoying and/or nasty... what could I possibly write to achieve that... oh right, I know: 'Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.'!"
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #144 on: February 09, 2017, 11:23:28 am »
+9

Come on guys, stop it please
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #145 on: February 09, 2017, 11:27:37 am »
+1

Ok...so I'm not going to touch the GM & Lab aspect of this debate. I'm going to stick to the Village + Smithy + Festival aspect (and hope that Qvist posts new rankings soon and we can just move on to arguing about those).

So yeah on average, overall, as a Dominion card, Festival is better than Village (it would be broken at $3). But there are tons of situations where you'd rather have a Village than a Festival. One of those situations is when you want to build an engine incorporating Smithy as the draw source. In general, the strategy for a kingdom with those 3 cards is that you're going to want some Villages and Smithies to draw your deck.

Once you start lining up Villages and Smithies, you are going to want a Festival or two. The main reason you want a Festival at that point is the fact that it gives you a +Buy along with other benefits. The buy allows you to buy a Village AND a Smithy per turn. The +2 Actions is good because at this point it gives you extra reliability if you don't draw a Village (and you can start to prioritize extra Smithies). And finally, a free $2 is great because it helps you utilize the +Buy.

So the core strategy is Village + Smithy to draw your deck every turn. Festival helps supplement that strategy because all of its pieces are useful additions to a Village + Smithy deck. You're just never* going to want to run a Festival + Smithy deck when Village is also available.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 11:29:06 am by allanfieldhouse »
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Miked

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #146 on: February 09, 2017, 12:01:16 pm »
0

Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

That's what you might think, but the exact opposite is true. Lab is stronger than Grand Market in the early game, when you're not drawing your deck yet. A deck that draws itself and produces $5 is a way stronger deck than a deck that produces $8 on average, but takes 3 turns to draw itself, because of how much faster it is to add new components to the former deck. That's why you always build your engine first and then add payload. On the other hand, when you're already drawing your deck, it doesn't help much to add more cards that draw, because there's nothing more to draw, and that's when you want payload, such as Grand Market.
What you're calling the early game here sounds like what I would call the mid game. No way I'm getting to $8 average or drawing my deck in the early game. Given the opportunity to open with either GM or Lab I would open GM on the vast majority of boards before moving onto the Labs. You need to add some economy first before you can afford those Labs right?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 12:03:22 pm by Miked »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #147 on: February 09, 2017, 12:31:06 pm »
0

Grand Market is stronger than Lab in the early game, when your average card is still quite weak. As the game progresses the extra card from Lab will gain more and more value as your deck improves. The power level of different effects change throughout the different stages of a game so the argument that Card A is better than Card B because it costs more doesn't really work.

That's what you might think, but the exact opposite is true. Lab is stronger than Grand Market in the early game, when you're not drawing your deck yet. A deck that draws itself and produces $5 is a way stronger deck than a deck that produces $8 on average, but takes 3 turns to draw itself, because of how much faster it is to add new components to the former deck. That's why you always build your engine first and then add payload. On the other hand, when you're already drawing your deck, it doesn't help much to add more cards that draw, because there's nothing more to draw, and that's when you want payload, such as Grand Market.
What you're calling the early game here sounds like what I would call the mid game. No way I'm getting to $8 average or drawing my deck in the early game. Given the opportunity to open with either GM or Lab I would open GM on the vast majority of boards before moving onto the Labs. You need to add some economy first before you can afford those Labs right?

Early game = when you're not drawing your deck yet (in the context of the post you were quoting, at least). I'm not sure what you would call the mid game, but it's worth evaluating whether or not you would call it "the mid game" just because it feels like it's roughly in the middle of the game or because there is a strategically relevant reason to make a distinction between that and other strategically relevant stages of the game.

You start with a deck full of economy, you only need to add more if you trash it away or if you can't draw enough of it to hit the price points you need to be hitting. If you can open Lab, you don't necessarily need to add any economy at all.
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Seprix

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #148 on: February 09, 2017, 12:53:02 pm »
0

Anyhow, you have an interesting definition of "obvious" and "fact" here. It's kind of douchey to conflate your own opinion with objective truth, tristan.
You can claim that I am another poster if you wish but I am new here. Given that you obviously hold some sort of grudge against me or the guy you confuse me with it is not surprising that it is not possible to rationally discuss Dominion with you. Not that such a discussion is possible with flat-eathers in the first place.

Whether you like it or not, it is a fact that Grand Market is generally better than Lab. If it isn't, feel free to explain why the game designer made GMs much harder to get than Labs.
For the same reason Festival is better than Village; combined with a Smithy the combo is 2 Labs vs. Lab+GM. Unsurprisingly
the average card in a deck is worse than Charm.

It's so obvious you're Tristan that it's not even funny. Give it a rest.

At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.

Awaclus is too logical to be the Donald Trump of Dominion. Awaclus is not a crowd-pleaser, but is rather an ethical robot in that he applies the same test to everything.

Thread lock in 3, 2, 1...

Come on guys, stop it please

obey this man!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 12:58:53 pm by Seprix »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #149 on: February 09, 2017, 01:03:23 pm »
+4

Festival is like almost-strictly-better-than-Silver, hence it costs $5. It's not as good as Village for drawing the deck, but it can be situationally stronger with draw-to-x and helps you skip buying treasure payload. Festival does suck when it's your only splitter and you really need to line it up with your draw in your opening hand. Without support, that is.

Edit: Okay, to help make it clear what I am trying to say, think of how you feel when you get an opening hand like Festival-Festival-Festival-Moneylender-Estate.

You know, Grand Market usually dominates in games with trashing where you don't really need much Laboratory-style stuff to play every GM in your deck. Not every game has super fast trashing though, and Lab helps you get to your trasher and maybe your attack faster than GM. Later you can get the GM and steamroll.

I would say GM and Lab accomplish different things, but I rank GM higher overall because it covers payload acceleration dramatically in a way Lab does not feel like it does for deck reliability. The +Buy with the GM gives so much pile control. Every GM play is another potential Estate you can buy to help close out the game on 3-pile.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 01:09:54 pm by markusin »
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