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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards  (Read 103572 times)

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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #100 on: February 05, 2017, 04:15:21 pm »
+6

I also feel Groundskeeper is much better than people realize. If you get enough, you can let your opponent buy provinces and easily catch up on points.
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Omastar68

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #101 on: February 05, 2017, 11:37:29 pm »
+2

I feel new to post here, but I think this is cool.

Most of these seem more or less intuitive to me. Harvest certainly seems like one of the most useless cards ever. Maybe it sees use w/ ruins...except that means a looter a.k.a. a better card. Something like Gardens maybe? idk, not a good card. Cache also seems really bad.

While it's pretty obvious Treasure Trove is way past Cache in usefulness, it's one of the cards that seems high to me. I guess you usually can trash Copper though, and it's still low-ish so it isn't really weird.

I like Graverobber a lot, and think it's better than Mystic. Some others don't seem very obvious, like Royal Seal, Plunder, Inn, Ball, Outpost, and Wine Merchant being low. But these kinds of things can never be perfect, they're just a guideline and completely board dependent. Still really cool how much work goes into these. Dominion is awesome.
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Kambork

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #102 on: February 06, 2017, 01:56:35 am »
+3

Great videos. There's just so many cards I wish I had.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2023, 10:12:53 am by Kambork »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #103 on: February 06, 2017, 03:22:50 am »
+1

I feel new to post here, but I think this is cool.

Most of these seem more or less intuitive to me. Harvest certainly seems like one of the most useless cards ever. Maybe it sees use w/ ruins...except that means a looter a.k.a. a better card. Something like Gardens maybe? idk, not a good card. Cache also seems really bad.

While it's pretty obvious Treasure Trove is way past Cache in usefulness, it's one of the cards that seems high to me. I guess you usually can trash Copper though, and it's still low-ish so it isn't really weird.

I like Graverobber a lot, and think it's better than Mystic. Some others don't seem very obvious, like Royal Seal, Plunder, Inn, Ball, Outpost, and Wine Merchant being low. But these kinds of things can never be perfect, they're just a guideline and completely board dependent. Still really cool how much work goes into these. Dominion is awesome.

I agree with a lot of your points. Harvest is crap. Compare it to Poor House. They are very similar but PH cost $1. I agree about Wine Merchant being low as well. It's usually very good engine payload. Outpost is also good in a lot of engines.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #104 on: February 06, 2017, 08:12:46 am »
+2

I feel new to post here, but I think this is cool.

Most of these seem more or less intuitive to me. Harvest certainly seems like one of the most useless cards ever. Maybe it sees use w/ ruins...except that means a looter a.k.a. a better card. Something like Gardens maybe? idk, not a good card. Cache also seems really bad.

While it's pretty obvious Treasure Trove is way past Cache in usefulness, it's one of the cards that seems high to me. I guess you usually can trash Copper though, and it's still low-ish so it isn't really weird.

I like Graverobber a lot, and think it's better than Mystic. Some others don't seem very obvious, like Royal Seal, Plunder, Inn, Ball, Outpost, and Wine Merchant being low. But these kinds of things can never be perfect, they're just a guideline and completely board dependent. Still really cool how much work goes into these. Dominion is awesome.

I agree with a lot of your points. Harvest is crap. Compare it to Poor House. They are very similar but PH cost $1. I agree about Wine Merchant being low as well. It's usually very good engine payload. Outpost is also good in a lot of engines.

Wine Merchant is mediocre engine payload at best. You need 3 before it even gets better than Courtier revealing a 2-type, and Courtier is way more flexible. It's okay if there's no other +buy and for early spikes, but that's about it.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #105 on: February 07, 2017, 03:58:09 am »
+1

I would rank Festival, Duke and Treasure Trove way higher.
Winemerchant and council room lower (cr better than festival really ? :o ).
I think the new cards Charm and Forum are overrated. They are both useful but are rarely the $5 that you focus on.

I still have absolutely no understanding of artificer, it seems so strong on paper but i never had a game where it was really useful.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #106 on: February 07, 2017, 04:24:26 am »
0

Council Room above Festival also seems really weird to me. Maybe it's because of the Making Fun campaigns, where Council Room-BM was often the solution?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #107 on: February 07, 2017, 08:08:25 am »
+3

Council Room above Festival also seems really weird to me. Maybe it's because of the Making Fun campaigns, where Council Room-BM was often the solution?

Non-drawing villages that compete for $5s are a tough sell. Cards that draw a lot and give you an extra buy are pretty dope. That extra card penalty is rough but I definitely think CR is the difference maker more than Festival.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2017, 12:02:56 pm »
+2

As long as terminal draw is on the board Festival is good.
Council Room on the other hand wants discard attacks. Otherwise it is like playing a Lab for your opponents and something which is a bit better than Hunting Grounds for yourself. So the card is more situational than Festival and I think that one aspect of the strength of cards is their versatility.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2017, 12:23:22 pm »
0

Building engines with Festival for splitting is almost as awkward as building engines with Ranger for draw. Council Room, on the other hand, makes it super easy to build engines.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2017, 12:34:22 pm »
+5

As long as terminal draw is on the board Festival is good.

I disagree. Without trashing, Festival just isn't reliable enough. If there's no trashing or weak trashing, I will prefer any drawing village over Festival. I might still get a Festival if it's the only +Buy, but I'm not going to use it as my main village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #111 on: February 09, 2017, 02:58:49 am »
0

As long as terminal draw is on the board Festival is good.

I disagree. Without trashing, Festival just isn't reliable enough. If there's no trashing or weak trashing, I will prefer any drawing village over Festival. I might still get a Festival if it's the only +Buy, but I'm not going to use it as my main village.
Festival and Smithy is equivalent to a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Village and Smithy is equivalent to two Labs.

So the former is better unless the average card in your deck provides more than "+2 Coins, +1 Buy". Which is unlikely if there is no trashing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #112 on: February 09, 2017, 03:52:50 am »
0

But most boards have at least some kind of trasher, and the ones that don't aren't even engine boards half of the time.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #113 on: February 09, 2017, 04:20:58 am »
+1

Building engines with Festival for splitting is almost as awkward as building engines with Ranger for draw. Council Room, on the other hand, makes it super easy to build engines.
Makes engines super easy for the opponent too. Ok I know this is obvious.
Still for me that benefit for the opponent is so huge for me. Even with discard attacks, you are still giving to your opponent some kind of sifting. So overall that drawback of cr is a bigger weakness than the lack of +cards in festival, which is quite important too but can be mitigatened by some cute combos (menagerie-watchtower), non-terminal draw (advisor, lab, opponent's council room lol), or sifters / deck inspection. Really all you need on a village is +2 actions, the usual +1 card is just a a bonus that makes things easier.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #114 on: February 09, 2017, 05:18:39 am »
0

Building engines with Festival for splitting is almost as awkward as building engines with Ranger for draw. Council Room, on the other hand, makes it super easy to build engines.
Makes engines super easy for the opponent too. Ok I know this is obvious.
Still for me that benefit for the opponent is so huge for me. Even with discard attacks, you are still giving to your opponent some kind of sifting. So overall that drawback of cr is a bigger weakness than the lack of +cards in festival, which is quite important too but can be mitigatened by some cute combos (menagerie-watchtower), non-terminal draw (advisor, lab, opponent's council room lol), or sifters / deck inspection. Really all you need on a village is +2 actions, the usual +1 card is just a a bonus that makes things easier.

Let's put this into perspective: One Council Room equals one Lab for your opponent, increasing your handsize by three, while also providing a buy. So you can get three times the draw for one action, with another bonus on top.

Compare this to Festival as your village: Say you have 5 of them in your deck, which means you draw 5 fewer cards than with a regular village, which costs 2 less. This means you need 2,5 Smithies more to draw your deck than usual, which means you can play about two instead of four payload cards. If the payload card isn't Woodcutter, which it can't be anymore, this is clearly worse.

This covers only the best case scenario, but this is also so much more prone to dudding. Shoutout to @settingfarming who has a beta simulator which I think can test this:

5Villages + 3 Smithies (+6cards)
and 5 Festivals + 5 Smithies (+6cards), both with 4, 7 and 10 stopcards.

My most conservative estimate would be that the latter duds 50% more, and twice as much with more junk around.

Overall, it is amusing to see that you would rather give up drawing 5 cards than giving your opponent one despite its benefits.

Market is also ridiculously high but I don't feel ranting about that one aswell since other did a good job with that already. Let me just add that nonterminal, drawing +buy wasn't good enough to make a mediocre $3 cost so it needed another effect which is now its main purpose.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #115 on: February 09, 2017, 06:11:06 am »
+1

Building engines with Festival for splitting is almost as awkward as building engines with Ranger for draw. Council Room, on the other hand, makes it super easy to build engines.
Makes engines super easy for the opponent too. Ok I know this is obvious.
Still for me that benefit for the opponent is so huge for me. Even with discard attacks, you are still giving to your opponent some kind of sifting. So overall that drawback of cr is a bigger weakness than the lack of +cards in festival, which is quite important too but can be mitigatened by some cute combos (menagerie-watchtower), non-terminal draw (advisor, lab, opponent's council room lol), or sifters / deck inspection. Really all you need on a village is +2 actions, the usual +1 card is just a a bonus that makes things easier.

The usual +1 card is not just a bonus, it's a free Lab. Free Labs are pretty good for engines.

Festival and Smithy is equivalent to a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Village and Smithy is equivalent to two Labs.

So the former is better unless the average card in your deck provides more than "+2 Coins, +1 Buy". Which is unlikely if there is no trashing.

Two Labs are super better than a Lab, a Market and a Peddler. It doesn't matter what the average card in your deck provides, what matters is whether or not you can draw your entire deck every turn and whether or not that entire deck lets you do something useful once you've drawn it.
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weety4

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #116 on: February 09, 2017, 08:23:23 am »
+1

Two Labs are super better than a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Lab might be sometimes better than GM but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Lab is "super better" than Grand Market is about as truthful as the world is flat.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 08:25:41 am by weety4 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #117 on: February 09, 2017, 08:25:18 am »
0

There are very few cases where I would voluntarily buy Lab over Grand Market if I had $6 and 1 buy (and no Copper in play), just as there are very few cases where I would buy Village over Festival if I had $5 and 1 buy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #118 on: February 09, 2017, 08:37:01 am »
+1

Two Labs are super better than a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Lab might be sometimes better than GM but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Lab is "super better" than Grand Market is about as truthful as the world is flat.

He said "two labs".
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #119 on: February 09, 2017, 08:40:02 am »
0

There are very few cases where I would voluntarily buy Lab over Grand Market if I had $6 and 1 buy (and no Copper in play), just as there are very few cases where I would buy Village over Festival if I had $5 and 1 buy.

That's because the opportunity cost of skipping a GM buy is pretty big and you want the GMs in your deck eventually. If GM was also a $5 card, you would buy Labs over GM until you're drawing your deck.

You actually do the latter scenario more often than you would think, through buying Villages when you don't hit $5, terminal draw when you do, and not buying Festivals at all until you're drawing your deck.

Two Labs are super better than a Lab, a Market and a Peddler.
Lab might be sometimes better than GM but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Lab is "super better" than Grand Market is about as truthful as the world is flat.


GM might be sometimes better than Lab but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Grand Market is "super better" than Lab is about as truthful as the world is flat.
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weety4

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #120 on: February 09, 2017, 08:50:10 am »
0

GM might be sometimes better than Lab but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Grand Market is "super better" than Lab is about as truthful as the world is flat.
Sure, that's why Lab costs more than Lab and has a no-Copper buy restriction. Oh no wait, it is the other way around.

Man, that Donald X. must be pretty bad at that game designing thing if he prices his cards so badly. Or some random guy on the internet is wrong. I wonder what's more likely.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #121 on: February 09, 2017, 08:52:03 am »
0

GM might be sometimes better than Lab but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Grand Market is "super better" than Lab is about as truthful as the world is flat.
Sure, that's why Lab costs more than Lab and has a no-Copper buy restriction. Oh no wait, it is the other way around.

Man, that Donald X. must be pretty bad at that game designing thing if he prices his cards so badly. Or some random guy on the internet is wrong. I wonder what's more likely.

Yeah and Chapel probably sucks too because it only costs $2, right?
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weety4

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #122 on: February 09, 2017, 09:02:09 am »
+1

GM might be sometimes better than Lab but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Grand Market is "super better" than Lab is about as truthful as the world is flat.
Sure, that's why Lab costs more than Lab and has a no-Copper buy restriction. Oh no wait, it is the other way around.

Man, that Donald X. must be pretty bad at that game designing thing if he prices his cards so badly. Or some random guy on the internet is wrong. I wonder what's more likely.

Yeah and Chapel probably sucks too because it only costs $2, right?
Chapel is an exception. As you rarely want more than one Chapel it is not game breaking that it is very powerful.
In virtually all other cases price and power are highly correlated, especially in the case of cantrips of which you want severals. if this were not the case the game would be broken.

There is definitely no card in Dominion which costs 5 and is "super better" than a card which is priced at 6 (and would be priced at 7 or 8 without the copper clause).
 
That Grand Market is generally better than Lab is an obvious fact. At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #123 on: February 09, 2017, 09:09:31 am »
+4

At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Awaclus is pretty much the Donald Trump of Dominion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $5 Cards
« Reply #124 on: February 09, 2017, 09:11:22 am »
+2

GM might be sometimes better than Lab but on average it is clearly worse so the claim that Grand Market is "super better" than Lab is about as truthful as the world is flat.
Sure, that's why Lab costs more than Lab and has a no-Copper buy restriction. Oh no wait, it is the other way around.

Man, that Donald X. must be pretty bad at that game designing thing if he prices his cards so badly. Or some random guy on the internet is wrong. I wonder what's more likely.

Yeah and Chapel probably sucks too because it only costs $2, right?
Chapel is an exception. In virtually all other cases price and power are highly correlated. There is definitely no card in Dominion which costs 5 and is "super better" than a card which is priced at 6 (and would be priced at 7 or 8 without the copper clause). There are of course situations in which a Lab is better than Expand or Prince but Lab is in general worse than either of those cards.

That Grand Market is generally better than Lab is an obvious fact. At least this preposterous discussions shows that mirror universes in which fair is foul and foul is fair do exist and that communication between our world and topsy-turvy land is possible.

Cost not correlating with power isn't just "well chapel is an exception". Cost controls a few things: 1. perception of power 2. accessibility.

The classic example isn't Chapel, but Courtyard. Courtyard is a stronger BM card than Smithy, by quite a lot, but costs $2. Why? It's simple - BM strategies don't have extra buys (usually). So any Action you're buying costs "all the money in your hand", so Courtyard costing $2 doesn't make it significantly more accessible. But in engines with many gains, Courtyard isn't significantly better than even Moat, so being able to buy multiple Courtyard for cheap isn't a big deal.

We can also consider 3 cost cards, where the top 5 3 costs are certainly better than the vast majority of 4's, and the primary difference in costing 3 is that these cards can be opened with twice.

Anyhow, you have an interesting definition of "obvious" and "fact" here. It's kind of douchey to conflate your own opinion with objective truth, tristan. I think Lab is ultimately "better" in the sense that is more often a more important card. Why? Because while GM provides a lot of valuable resources, the only *scarce* resource it provides is +Buy. You can get coins from any number of sources, and while GM is a strong source of coin, it is somewhat frequently not fast enough to justify going out of your way for it. Lab is one of, what, maybe five nonterminal draw cards in the game? This is huge! Even terminal draw is a scarce resource, and Lab is one of the very, very few cards that gives you a solid chance of building an engine without any real +Action. That's amazing.

Regardless, all of this is much different than the original question, which is whether or not Festival is as good of a Village as Village. It's not. It's because it costs too much and it doesn't draw. That extra card is really important - finding another Village or Smithy in a 4 card search area is much easier than a 3 card search area! If your payload would otherwise be Silver, and you don't have other 5s to buy, then of course get Festival, duh, but it's really a Worker's Village that always draws Silver - not ideal for a lot of decks, while pretty decent in some.
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