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Author Topic: New editions of cards online  (Read 1695 times)

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Jeebus

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New editions of cards online
« on: January 11, 2017, 08:11:48 pm »
+5

Since all cards are now presented in new editions on Dominion Online, it should be okay to discuss the new versions. Donald has said (as I understood it) that cards might get further changes before they are published, but for now this is what we're playing with.

Here is a text file with all the new versions, with thanks to Seprix. (He told me that there might be changes online not reflected in this text - Moat and Diplomat are missing the word "first" here.)

The only cards with functional changes (after Intrigue), seem to be Scheme, Embargo and Outpost. Possession is also changed, but the erratum in the Empires rulebook was apparently meant for 1st edition Possession cards too. (I'm still wondering about Stash.)

Hinterlands (already published)
Nomad Camp: Previous inaccurate wording now corrected.
Haggler: I thought the new wording made it less clear. Cheaper than which card?
Inn: Now clearer that Inn isn't necessarily shuffled in (since it's not necessarily in your discard pile).
Scheme: Changed functionally because the choice is now when actually discarding each card, not at the start of Clean-up. But it seems to me that in practice, with all existing cards, it will never make a difference...?

Seaside
Embargo: Each token is now a separate ability triggering, which means you can resolve other when-buy abilities (like Haggler) in between. This is very marginal of course. Also the strictly inaccurate, cumulative under-the-line text is now fixed (but not fixed on Duchess, Baker, Trade Route and Young Witch).
Pirate Ship: Corrected according to existing errata.
Salvager: Now specifies that it's coin cost.
Treasure Map: Now says "if you trashed", which matters for Band of Misfits.
Outpost: There is another thread about it. Four functional differences: It never stays in play if it fails; it doesn't make you draw 3 cards if it fails; it doesn't work if Inherited (it refers to "Outpost"); and if you have other extra turns lined up you can now resolve the Outpost turn last.
Tactician: Changed wording, but I think that it's functionally the same.

Alchemy
Apprentice: Coin symbol corrected.
Possession: Corrected according to existing errata (stated in Empires rulebook).

Adventures
Coin of the Realm, Royal Carriage: Previous wording was strictly inaccurate - now changed.
Storyteller: Coin symbol corrected.
Borrow, Save: "+1 Buy" moved, which makes the meaning of "once per turn" less confusing on these Events.

Promos
Black Market: Previous inaccurate wording now corrected: It was missing that you can play Treasures. A dividing line is also added. The setup rule has actually changed functionally strictly speaking: Before it said to use all cards not in the Supply. But from very early on Donald hasn't supported this requirement, and no online implementation has followed it. So this change is really a correction according to existing errata.
Envoy: Corrected according to existing errata (stated in Adventures rulebook).

Prosperity
EDIT 2017-08-21: Trade Route: It now trashes first, which can matter if your trashing leads to gaining a Victory card. See this post.

If anybody can spot any other changes that matter, or any mistake I've made, I'd appreciate it if you chime in.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 09:07:33 am by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: New editions of cards online
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 11:28:40 pm »
0

What made "after resolving an action" innacurate? On the surface, I'm not a fan of that change, because it's not obvious why "when another player plays an attack" should be a different time than "after you finish playing an action". Donald himself said that in games in general, "when X" effects happen after X has happened.
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LastFootnote

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Re: New editions of cards online
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2017, 08:55:40 am »
+1

What made "after resolving an action" innacurate? On the surface, I'm not a fan of that change, because it's not obvious why "when another player plays an attack" should be a different time than "after you finish playing an action". Donald himself said that in games in general, "when X" effects happen after X has happened.

That's why Moat et al now say "first".
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Jeebus

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Re: New editions of cards online
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2017, 09:49:01 am »
+3

What made "after resolving an action" innacurate? On the surface, I'm not a fan of that change, because it's not obvious why "when another player plays an attack" should be a different time than "after you finish playing an action". Donald himself said that in games in general, "when X" effects happen after X has happened.

You're technically right, but...

Ideally we would like all card texts to be technically accurate and also easily understandable. However, sometimes the former is sacrificed for the sake of the latter. In this case, neither the old or the new text are technically accurate, but for different reasons. However, I think the new text is more understandable.

"After resolving an Action" does not specify that the Action card needs to have been played. You resolve an Action card also when you reveal a Diplomat, when you take VP from buying a card with Goons in play, or even when you draw a card in the beginning of your turn from a Caravan. The new version specifies that it's about playing an Action card.

But you're right that the old text specified that it's after resolving, while the new simply talks about playing it, which technically puts it in the same timing as Moat. The wording "finish playing" is meant to signal that it's after resolving. As LastFootnote says, Moat now says "first", which is also just a signal. "First" is supposed to mean "before resolving the played card", and "after you finish playing" is supposed to mean "after resolving a played card".

To me the new text is clearer, because the old inaccuracy made it more difficult to understand than the new inaccuracy. I would have liked a wording like "after playing and resolving an Action card" though.

GendoIkari

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Re: New editions of cards online
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2017, 10:02:07 am »
0

What made "after resolving an action" innacurate? On the surface, I'm not a fan of that change, because it's not obvious why "when another player plays an attack" should be a different time than "after you finish playing an action". Donald himself said that in games in general, "when X" effects happen after X has happened.

You're technically right, but...

Ideally we would like all card texts to be technically accurate and also easily understandable. However, sometimes the former is sacrificed for the sake of the latter. In this case, neither the old or the new text are technically accurate, but for different reasons. However, I think the new text is more understandable.

"After resolving an Action" does not specify that the Action card needs to have been played. You resolve an Action card also when you reveal a Diplomat, when you take VP from buying a card with Goons in play, or even when you draw a card in the beginning of your turn from a Caravan. The new version specifies that it's about playing an Action card.

But you're right that the old text specified that it's after resolving, while the new simply talks about playing it, which technically puts it in the same timing as Moat. The wording "finish playing" is meant to signal that it's after resolving. As LastFootnote says, Moat now says "first", which is also just a signal. "First" is supposed to mean "before resolving the played card", and "after you finish playing" is supposed to mean "after resolving a played card".

To me the new text is clearer, because the old inaccuracy made it more difficult to understand than the new inaccuracy. I would have liked a wording like "after playing and resolving an Action card" though.

Ok yeah. Agreed. "First" and "after" in these cases are helpful to the casual reader, and make the intent clearer in English, but don't make it more technically accurate. Which I think is fine for Dominion. As Donald has said, he prefers the implicit stack to one spelled out in the rules like MTG.
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Jeebus

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Re: New editions of cards online
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2017, 02:44:04 pm »
+2

Via Stef I got the new Stash text from Donald, and so I also added it to the file.

"When shuffling this, you may look through your remaining deck, and may put this anywhere in the shuffled cards."

So now it clarifies that you can't just grab Stashes from the supply and place them in your deck, and also it now works how it used to before the new shuffling rule.

EDIT: And it actually also clarifies that you can't place Stash among the remaining cards of your deck, something that also came up with the new shuffling rule.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 03:25:51 pm by Jeebus »
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Chris is me

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Re: New editions of cards online
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2017, 03:57:54 pm »
+1

It does kind of seem to imply you can look at the contents of your deck though? I know that's not what it means, but "look through" sort of implies, well, looking.
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Donald X.

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Re: New editions of cards online
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2017, 04:13:27 pm »
+1

It does kind of seem to imply you can look at the contents of your deck though? I know that's not what it means, but "look through" sort of implies, well, looking.
You can look at the contents of your deck! But not the cards you're shuffling.

This would be a functional change in situations where you have to access multiple cards from your deck at once without looking at them, e.g. a version of Native Village that set aside 3 cards at once.
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