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Author Topic: Landforms  (Read 2356 times)

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trivialknot

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2017, 11:52:32 am »
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My initial concern is that the tokens will go very quickly.  Once it becomes clear that one of the players can get any sort of advantage out of the landform, it becomes automatic for all the other players, and it will only impact 3 turns.

In the first couple turns, it's unclear whether any particular player could get an advantage, but I think some players will just use the landforms anyway, because they have little reason to think it will hurt at this point.  (See also: you used to be able to gain Engineers with Engineers, but in testing DXV found that some players just drained the pile automatically.)

I think the best landforms so far are the ones that have some sort of barrier to use, like having a non-Copper treasure or an action.  But I think the barriers could be even larger.
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faust

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2017, 12:28:30 pm »
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My initial concern is that the tokens will go very quickly.  Once it becomes clear that one of the players can get any sort of advantage out of the landform, it becomes automatic for all the other players, and it will only impact 3 turns.

In the first couple turns, it's unclear whether any particular player could get an advantage, but I think some players will just use the landforms anyway, because they have little reason to think it will hurt at this point.  (See also: you used to be able to gain Engineers with Engineers, but in testing DXV found that some players just drained the pile automatically.)
Draining for no benefit is actually bad play (not always).

If we start with 6 tokens in a 2-player game, removing one and getting nothing means there are 5 left. Now it's my opponent's turn. If each of us uses the Landform each turn, then my opponent will get 3 uses and I will get 2. So by draining the first one, all I'm doing is taking one possible use away from myself (and not from the other players).

Once a token is removed the situation changes: With 5 tokens left, draining is always good: If you don't drain, then your opponent might get 3 more uses while you only get 2 no matter if you drain or not.

This makes draining less of a problem, but it also makes for somewhat automatic play; once you figured it out, you will just always drain on odd numbers and never on even numbers. I guess things get more complicated in multiplayer.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2017, 12:54:30 pm »
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Okay, fair enough. So what if I changed them a bit? Delta and Field always have an effect, so they're good. Cavern usually does something, and it's hard to reliably drain them because you need a Treasure card and a non-Copper at that.
Channel: Maybe I should set a lower limit on discarding, like 2 or more cards. Lower than that it has almost no effect.
Forest: I'll change it to "when you have no Actions, you may remove a token from here for +1 Action". This makes it harder to drain, but you still could after, e.g. a militia with no other Action cards.
Coast: I'll go with Qvist's suggestion, "If you have an unused buy gain a Copper."
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2017, 10:51:36 am »
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(Updates to previous Landforms)


Here's a simple one. It's kinda plain. It's like a simple Annex, you increase your cycling and you get a VP card. The Estate helps slow you down and makes it harder to drain.


Here's a really weird one. This doesn't actually give you any good benefits. In a way, it's the opposite of Cavern. Cavern makes your first few Silvers Golds, this makes your last few Golds Silvers. You get 5 Golds in, then they're only silver.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2017, 07:17:21 pm »
+1

Could you post text versions so we can read them easier?  In order to read the top row I have to click to make it full screen and then find the horizontal scroll bar at the bottom of the message and try to put it at a place where it shows all the text. (in other words, the small version is too small to read, and the big version is too big.)

werothegreat

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2017, 12:36:49 pm »
+1

Question - how did you make your Landform template?  I'm interested in mocking up fan landscape things that aren't Events or Landmarks.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2017, 01:36:41 pm »
+1

Question - how did you make your Landform template?  I'm interested in mocking up fan landscape things that aren't Events or Landmarks.
1: Find an Event template, IMO Asper's is the best.
2: Colorize it in GIMP, using whatever preferred colorizing tool, but don't just paint over it with a solid color.
3: Put it in a layer above a copy of the base Event template.
4: Delete all of the colorized template EXCEPT for the text box, name box, and type box.
5: Paint over the name in the upper right corner, and use Optimus Princeps to write the new name.
6: Tilt your name at 45 degrees and make sure it's scaled and placed right.
7: You should have 3 layers, colored event template with just the text boxes, event template, and name. Merge/group them and you're done!


Also, here's 2 more:

Quote
Abyss
When you play an Action card, you may remove a token from here, to put it onto your deck. If you did, each other player may gain a copy of it.

Quote
Countryside
Once per turn, at the start of your Clean-up phase, you may remove a token from here, to move the Seasons token back or forth one section
Both of these are untested.
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popsofctown

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2017, 05:11:47 pm »
+1

Whenever a player finishes playing Treasures in her buy phase, you may remove a token from here.  If you do, name a card, and players can't buy that card this turn.

Setup: Place 3 tokens here per player.
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Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2017, 12:51:48 pm »
+1

So, Plains really ought to be an Event. That would actually be cleaner, as you could just tie the Chancellor to the Estate gaining, instead of sometimes having the Estates run out later (2 to 3 players), sometimes at the same time (4 to 5 players) and sometimes earlier than the tokens (6 players).

Edit: Uh, of course the player count isn't necessarily the only thing that will... de-syc the Estate gaining and chancellor effect. My bad.

Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2017, 04:18:18 pm »
+1

Also, Coast could just say "Once per turn, at the start of your cleanup phase, you may remove a token from here to gain a card costing at most the amount of $ you have unspent."
It DOES behave differently if you have more Potions in play than you have buys, but I believe it's a lot easier to process. Also, of course, this one also could be an Event (as long as you reference the cleanup phase the way e.g. Expedition does). Same goes for Delta (although it'd obviously have to give +2$ and would lack interaction with tfb and cards that let you play Treasures mid-turn).

I discourage mechanics that move the Season token forward, as it can mess up other players' opening buys. Moving it back IS a problem in some instances, but usually those are much milder. If I were to re-create Seasons, changing Plantation to only move the token backwards would be one of the things I'd do. But I'm not, so that's an aside.

One thing about Reef that worries me is that it'll easily be forgotten. You could solve it by only giving out debt (or taking tokens) if another player demands it (so that not taking any because it's forgotten isn't breaking the rules), but that again makes it political.

ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2017, 05:39:48 pm »
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Re Plains: Yes, but for the reasons you mentioned, I think it's fine as a Terrain. I get your point about for some Landforms they could work as Events, but I think you're missing the fact that overall it's simpler.

Re Reef: Hmm, I think the other players reminding should be good enough, and there have been worse things that haven't killed the game.

Re Countryside: Okay, I'll change that.

Re Coast: Again, I think my version is fine? Your version is fine but I don't know if you're trying to say "This is better" or "Fun Fact: this works". If it's the former, I'd like to disagree, it it's the latter, I'll keep it in mind for possibly later down the line.
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Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2017, 06:41:10 pm »
+1

Re Plains: Yes, but for the reasons you mentioned, I think it's fine as a Terrain. I get your point about for some Landforms they could work as Events, but I think you're missing the fact that overall it's simpler.
I really don't think it's simpler. Landforms are things you need to keep in mind all the time, because there is no set timing for them per se. If you can make a Landform as an Event, it means that instead of remembering it all the time, you can just look at it whenever it's your buy phase, and then say "Let's see, what does this do again?". I think this fact speaks in favor of using Events whenever possible - especially when you could leave out the tokens, as you could easily do here.

Re Coast: Again, I think my version is fine? Your version is fine but I don't know if you're trying to say "This is better" or "Fun Fact: this works". If it's the former, I'd like to disagree, it it's the latter, I'll keep it in mind for possibly later down the line.
I think it is better. Mostly because the Copper gaining feels awkward and people who don't think about using Landforms just to remove tokens would wonder why it is even there. There must be better ways than "If you use this without need, be punished.", and indeed I think a (more or less) atomic, positive instruction is such a way.

ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2017, 07:49:34 pm »
+1

I feel like this came up with Supplements: You're presenting an option and saying it's better and only 10% different, and thinking it should change. The origin of the disagreement does not originat e from me saying that it shouldn't change to a veesion thats better and 90% the same, it's me saykng that it's actually 20-25% different. To reference an analogy you used, it's like ordering a chocolate creme donut with sprinkles and not getting sprinkles. They could say "hey, it's 90% the same, just missing a few sprinkles", but no. To me the sprinkles are half of the reason I like it, and without them it doesnt work. Your Event Plains might seem like a vast improvement and with only a few minor changes to you, but to me it's a completley different card and it's only half what I wanted. We could discuss endlessly what the differences are and how often they matter, but in the end it's my card, and I feel like I'm entitled to say its not worth the change.
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Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2017, 10:19:47 pm »
+1

Sure, have it your way. As you said, they are your ideas. I felt syncing Estates and chancellor-ing was a strict improvement, but apparently the "out of sync" thing were sprinkles. In other words: "It's not a bug, it's a feature."

ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2017, 08:24:14 am »
+1

Hmm, I still have more I never got around to posting, but right now I don't know where to go with the type. I think what I'll do is make Landform a Subtype of landscape cards. All landforms will start with 3 tokens per player, and will have the color tan. This way some like Coast can be implimented as Events, a few like Tagia will be Landmarks, and the rest will be use Asper's Edicts (is that okay Asper?). For the ones that don't use 3 tokens per player, I'll rebalance them with 3 or just remove the tokens all together.
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Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2017, 09:54:22 am »
+1

Hmm, I still have more I never got around to posting, but right now I don't know where to go with the type. I think what I'll do is make Landform a Subtype of landscape cards. All landforms will start with 3 tokens per player, and will have the color tan. This way some like Coast can be implimented as Events, a few like Tagia will be Landmarks, and the rest will be use Asper's Edicts (is that okay Asper?). For the ones that don't use 3 tokens per player, I'll rebalance them with 3 or just remove the tokens all together.
Sure you can. I probably would have drawn inspiration from some of them sooner or later, either way ;)
Edit: If we're being honest, I think I already did that.

ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2017, 02:49:50 pm »
+1

So I'll just run through and post them all with the changes I plan to make. But first, here's clarification on how I'm gonna change things up.

The type "Landform" will be changed to a subtype "Geographical" which will precede the type of Landscape card it is, i.e "Geographical Event, Geographical Edict". "Geographical" means that it will start with 3 tokens per player. I haven't decided if I'll actually write that on the card, on one hand, it will have the tan sub color to remind you, it won't matter if you put them on late, and Victory cards and 2 players gives some kind of precedence. OTOH, it can be easy to forget and Landmarks start with tokens and other stuff. Most of them will become Asper's Edicts, with some going elsewhere, and some removed period.


Probably no changes.

I'll make it Non-Victory so it works with 3 tokens, and an Event.

No changes, though I'm not a fan per se.

Event, if you have any non-Copper treasures in play remove a token for +

No changes, but it will be an Edict of course.

No changes.

I think I may just use the term "Refresh the tokens on here", and maybe use that again elsewhere.

An Event, but with "You must use all of your buys" instead of icky copper gaining.

No moving token forward.

Maybe a bit like Asper's blessing, but I'll fix the typo.

No changes.

An event, discard a non-Copper take a Coin token. Actually, it may work without tokens as fix to Asper's Conserve.

No changes, though like Asper's Exploration.

I'm not that fond of the card, so major changes pending.

Maybe not even a Geographical card, but whatever.

Once per game: Replace an empty Kingdom Supply pile, event cost .

I need to change this one after playtesting, it should be once next turn, and react to an Action played from your hand.

Probably make the trigger anytime, though I dislike the similarity to Delta. Maybe if I switched Delta's abilities?

Pitched, it should be covered by the new Bog.

A normal event just with tokens.

No changes, not sideways.

Probably +3 Cards.

Too similar to Desert.

I'll go with Asp's version.

No changes, pending testing, though.

Just an event, maybe costs that lets you flip a landmark.

Fix typo. Should be wasteland.

Plain Edict, though I'd like to jazz it up. Something like "When you play a Gold, if you have no Copper in play, take "

Maybe needs changes.

I'm not sure if it needs to exist ATM.

Again, another trasher probably isn't what I need.

I'll make this a geographical Landmark.
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Qvist

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2017, 08:35:20 am »
0


An Event, but with "You must use all of your buys" instead of icky copper gaining.

You play 2 Contrabands and your opponent names Curse and Copper. What now? You can't enforce buys because of Contraband. There's a good reason it's worded that way.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2017, 09:16:38 am »
+1


An Event, but with "You must use all of your buys" instead of icky copper gaining.

You play 2 Contrabands and your opponent names Curse and Copper. What now? You can't enforce buys because of Contraband. There's a good reason it's worded that way.

Yeah, it also doesn't work if the piles are empty or you have debt.
I still think this should simply give you a card costing up to what you have left at cleanup.

Edit: Or simply not use counter tokens, but some kind of penalty instead. As an Event costing 0$: Once per turn: +2 Buys, gain a Copper.

ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2017, 04:32:50 pm »
0

Updated OP with images.

Still working on their theme. Most of them will need name/art changes now.
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pacovf

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2017, 05:24:33 pm »
0


An Event, but with "You must use all of your buys" instead of icky copper gaining.

You play 2 Contrabands and your opponent names Curse and Copper. What now? You can't enforce buys because of Contraband. There's a good reason it's worded that way.

Prohibition beats Obligation (there's a quote by Donald somewhere). If it really bothers you, just make it "You must use all your buys, if able".

Also, the number of times this would be the optimal move is astoundingly low.

Not saying that enforcing buys is the right way to go, but this counterargument feels very tortured to me.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2017, 05:45:34 pm »
0

Yeah, it also doesn't work if the piles are empty
True cases both of you, but there are plenty of times when you're instructed to do something and you can't, as Pacovf said Prohibition beats Obligation. This seems obvious enough.
or you have debt.
Then how did you buy the Event?
I still think this should simply give you a card costing up to what you have left at cleanup.
That seems messier to me, but I guess it works. I could be won over if the current version doesn't work.
Edit: Or simply not use counter tokens, but some kind of penalty instead. As an Event costing 0$: Once per turn: +2 Buys, gain a Copper.
I've considered something along the lines of +3 Buys, you must use all, but it would probably be something separate, I like the Geographical version.
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Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2017, 06:04:13 pm »
+2

or you have debt.
Then how did you buy the Event?
I suppose you just bought it before you bought something that gave you debt?

I still think this should simply give you a card costing up to what you have left at cleanup.
That seems messier to me, but I guess it works. I could be won over if the current version doesn't work.
I admit pacovf's reasoning has something to it. Actually, I guess my complaint is that all of this wouldn't be necessary if there weren't those tokens and the fear that you could spend them needlessly. Therefore, my second solution where you "pay" for that buy somehow.

ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2017, 06:06:24 pm »
+1

or you have debt.
Then how did you buy the Event?
I suppose you just bought it before you bought something that gave you debt?
Oh that makes sense.
I still think this should simply give you a card costing up to what you have left at cleanup.
That seems messier to me, but I guess it works. I could be won over if the current version doesn't work.
I admit pacovf's reasoning has something to it. Actually, I guess my complaint is that all of this wouldn't be necessary if there weren't those tokens and the fear that you could spend them needlessly. Therefore, my second solution where you "pay" for that buy somehow.
Well, then I'd suggest you play with it. I think it's better with the tokens.
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