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Author Topic: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition  (Read 12429 times)

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werothegreat

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The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« on: January 06, 2017, 09:28:04 pm »
+4

In case you've been stuck under a Rocks since last Fall, the entirety of the Dominion canon is being re-released in a shiny new updated format, with less gendering, (hopefully) less confusing wordings, and bigger fonts.  That means that all the card scans I've made of the 1st edition cards are no longer accurate to canonical Dominion.  However, I have absolutely zero plans of seeking out and buying each new updated set outside of Base and Intrigue, which leads me to a dilemma, which already has at least one other wiki user... politely discussing the matter with me.  So I'm bringing to all of you lovely people this question for how the wiki should operate moving forward:

Should card text in infoboxes reflect the most updated wordings, or the wording on my most recent card scan for that card?  Should the card image and the card text have to match?

I see a few options:
a) Do not update the card text if an updated image is not uploaded
b) Update the card text, and don't care about the image
c) Someone else can buy the updated editions and make their own scans
d) Pull card images from the new Dominion online interface

Personally, I think card text should reflect the most up-to-date wording, so a) is not appealing to me.  However, at least one person has voiced an opposition to b).  c) would require someone to step forward, and I would want some sort of assent from the community here before going with d), since we had this same question about a year ago before I started scanning everything the first time around, and the consensus then was to keep to the physical scans.

Thoughts?

P.S.: Another slight problem with d) is that a few of the cards on Shuffle iT have some issues, mainly a few of the Treasures either lacking the top icons, or their names overlapping those icons.  Also, no Inheritance or Stash yet.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 09:31:19 pm by werothegreat »
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Deadlock39

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2017, 11:20:05 pm »
+1

I would approve of d), ideally with easy access to the old scans.

Alternative, highly impractical option: use raw art assets, raw card text, and card templates to generate card images.

werothegreat

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2017, 11:55:22 pm »
0

I would approve of d), ideally with easy access to the old scans.

Those could easily be slotted into the "Alternate version" section of each card page.

Alternative, highly impractical option: use raw art assets, raw card text, and card templates to generate card images.

Someone else can do that.  At any rate, I have no idea how to access the Adventures or Empires art assets.  Previously, I was able to scrounge them from Goko's delightfully insecure website, but I don't know how to get them off of Shuffle iT.
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 12:19:29 am »
0

I would approve of d), ideally with easy access to the old scans.

Those could easily be slotted into the "Alternate version" section of each card page.

Alternative, highly impractical option: use raw art assets, raw card text, and card templates to generate card images.

Someone else can do that.  At any rate, I have no idea how to access the Adventures or Empires art assets.  Previously, I was able to scrounge them from Goko's delightfully insecure website, but I don't know how to get them off of Shuffle iT.
I would just ask the devs. specifically scsn.
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Deadlock39

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2017, 12:20:40 am »
0

Security doesn't really come into it (unless you do something really tricky maybe, I'm not an expert here). The implementation has to tell your web browser to render an image, and it can't simultaneously restrict access to that image.  You can look at the source your browser is rendering when you are in a game and find the path to the art assets.

I won't post any links here unless someone with authority says it is fine to put the images on the wiki. The images are technically openly accessible, so it seems like it would be fine, but I don't want to assume.

Chris is me

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2017, 12:58:40 am »
+2

As long as the image caption says it's an old version of the card, I don't see why different wordings between the card and the box are a problem.
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2017, 01:01:00 am »
+1

Security doesn't really come into it (unless you do something really tricky maybe, I'm not an expert here). The implementation has to tell your web browser to render an image, and it can't simultaneously restrict access to that image.  You can look at the source your browser is rendering when you are in a game and find the path to the art assets.

I won't post any links here unless someone with authority says it is fine to put the images on the wiki. The images are technically openly accessible, so it seems like it would be fine, but I don't want to assume.
Shuffle it does no use that big resolution as Making Fun or Goko.
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Deadlock39

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2017, 01:38:05 am »
0

Security doesn't really come into it (unless you do something really tricky maybe, I'm not an expert here). The implementation has to tell your web browser to render an image, and it can't simultaneously restrict access to that image.  You can look at the source your browser is rendering when you are in a game and find the path to the art assets.

I won't post any links here unless someone with authority says it is fine to put the images on the wiki. The images are technically openly accessible, so it seems like it would be fine, but I don't want to assume.
Shuffle it does no use that big resolution as Making Fun or Goko.

I guess this is true, but the card image I checked seems plenty big for the wiki.
It is 287x209 as compared to the MilitiaArt.jpg on the wiki, which is 354x261.

Donald X.

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2017, 09:07:39 am »
+5

Should card text in infoboxes reflect the most updated wordings, or the wording on my most recent card scan for that card?  Should the card image and the card text have to match?

I see a few options:
a) Do not update the card text if an updated image is not uploaded
b) Update the card text, and don't care about the image
c) Someone else can buy the updated editions and make their own scans
d) Pull card images from the new Dominion online interface
I personally would keep both old images and texts, and new ones. For situations where you only want one (e.g. mouseover images), use the new one.

There are two kinds of images here - ones that don't exist and ones that do. We could have a third category, ones that exist but which haven't been published; they might as well not exist.

For ones that exist, you could probably get me to ask Jay if I can send you the file. Note however that the file is not 100% accurate - it is a shrunk .pdf, and something about the shrinking process can mess things up. Sometimes the background color is a little off, or the font on the numbers is wrong, and they don't figure it out and give up trying because the large .pdf doesn't have those issues. However the large .pdf is not available, it is too large.

After that I like hoping someone will scan it for you. Use the current image until you get that one. The ability to scan is sufficiently ubiquitous that it seems like someone can do it eventually. I would have offered to scan them but in my imagination you would have been all "can you redo this with different settings and get them more even and stuff" and man no I cannot.

For nonexistent images, I would stick with existing images as a placeholder. The online images are generated and uh are just going to be wrong various ways.

I don't think it's so bad if card texts match the latest published versions rather than the online version. The latest published version is correct.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2017, 09:13:14 am »
+1

For ones that exist, you could probably get me to ask Jay if I can send you the file. Note however that the file is not 100% accurate - it is a shrunk .pdf, and something about the shrinking process can mess things up. Sometimes the background color is a little off, or the font on the numbers is wrong, and they don't figure it out and give up trying because the large .pdf doesn't have those issues. However the large .pdf is not available, it is too large.

After that I like hoping someone will scan it for you. Use the current image until you get that one. The ability to scan is sufficiently ubiquitous that it seems like someone can do it eventually. I would have offered to scan them but in my imagination you would have been all "can you redo this with different settings and get them more even and stuff" and man no I cannot.

I mean, I have GIMP, it has a rotate tool and all sorts of other fun things.  If you feel up to scanning the new Hinterlands cards, I will totally take whatever you feel like giving me.  I don't really foresee anyone complaining about using scans taken by the game designer himself on the wiki.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 03:01:49 pm »
+3

So, Donald X. graciously emailed me his personal scans of the updated Hinterlands cards, which I'll be putting up on the wiki.  They are, however, a bit stripe-y, but I think I can live with that if it means the new wordings match the pictures.  Donald did say he's getting a new printer soon, but I'm sure he has better things to do with his time.

Example:

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 07:06:42 pm »
+4

I think the 1st edition Recommended Kingdoms should be added back on somehow, a lot of people have the first editions and might still use the cards or not have the upgrade packs, plus they are useful if you want to look up old references to them but only have the 2nd edition rulebooks or whatever.

Not sure how that should actually be done, because it does make sense for the 2nd edition kingdoms to be the main thing on the page, but I don't think the information should just be deleted like it is now.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2017, 07:11:59 pm »
+1

I think the 1st edition Recommended Kingdoms should be added back on somehow, a lot of people have the first editions and might still use the cards or not have the upgrade packs, plus they are useful if you want to look up old references to them but only have the 2nd edition rulebooks or whatever.

Not sure how that should actually be done, because it does make sense for the 2nd edition kingdoms to be the main thing on the page, but I don't think the information should just be deleted like it is now.

I could see those kingdoms going on the "removed cards" page.
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2017, 07:58:34 pm »
+2

I could see those kingdoms going on the "removed cards" page.

For the reasons I was thinking about people wanting them (i.e. not just historical trivia) it seems like they ought to be accessible from the Intrigue and Base Set pages respectively.  Maybe as a link or maybe as a "1st edition Recommended Kingdoms" section or maybe as a note on the kingdoms that replaced them or something?

I'm imagining my friend who has Intrigue, Base, and like Seaside and that's it, and won't get the upgrade packs looking up recommended kingdoms for some reason (maybe rulebook loss) and just finding the ones with the 2nd edition cards, and that seems less than ideal.
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2017, 06:30:27 am »
+3

I could see those kingdoms going on the "removed cards" page.

For the reasons I was thinking about people wanting them (i.e. not just historical trivia) it seems like they ought to be accessible from the Intrigue and Base Set pages respectively.  Maybe as a link or maybe as a "1st edition Recommended Kingdoms" section or maybe as a note on the kingdoms that replaced them or something?

I'm imagining my friend who has Intrigue, Base, and like Seaside and that's it, and won't get the upgrade packs looking up recommended kingdoms for some reason (maybe rulebook loss) and just finding the ones with the 2nd edition cards, and that seems less than ideal.

The vast majority of Dominion and Intrigue sets in existence are first edition. The wiki should *not* follow the example of some on this forum in pretending that those sets don't exist.
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2017, 10:44:22 am »
+1

The vast majority of Dominion and Intrigue sets in existence are first edition. The wiki should *not* follow the example of some on this forum in pretending that those sets don't exist.

Hmm, I don't recall anybody pretending any such thing.
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2017, 12:31:04 pm »
+1

The vast majority of Dominion and Intrigue sets in existence are first edition. The wiki should *not* follow the example of some on this forum in pretending that those sets don't exist.

Hmm, I don't recall anybody pretending any such thing.

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« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 12:34:37 pm by sc0UT »
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2017, 02:41:53 pm »
0

The vast majority of Dominion and Intrigue sets in existence are first edition. The wiki should *not* follow the example of some on this forum in pretending that those sets don't exist.

Hmm, I don't recall anybody pretending any such thing.

Scout

What's that? Do you mean Scouting Party?

Feast!

It would be really neat if there was a card called Feast in Dominion!

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Oh, you mean pretending they don't exist as a joke? Sure.
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2017, 03:29:00 am »
+1

    Just my 2 cents:

    • The main card images should represent the most recent physically published version in English (with obvious exceptions if the card isn't yet published in English). I'm okay with finalized images/PDFs from Donald/Jay for the new cards for now, since it will take a while to get reliably get physical copies of those in the hands of wiki members that can scan them.
    • The card pages need a new section or something to show revisions to the card (maybe call it "Revisions")? This should list all prior texts of the card and notes on any functional changes (like for Masquerade, Scheme, Possession, etc), and how the card was released. Include images of those revisions that are published where possible. I hope we'll end up with no more than 2 revisions for each card, so this should be a short section. This would replace or supersede the "First Edition" section on some of the pages. Alternately this info could be in an expanded version of the "Alternate Versions" section. I think nailing this down will avoid confusion in the long term. I'm more than happy to mock something like this up on the Discussion page of some card for review (maybe on Tactician or Masquerade).
    • How final are the wordings on the new Dominion Online? I assume all of them haven't been finalized and set off for publishing sans Hinterlands, but I could be wrong. I assume only Donald might know the answer to that one... I feel like we should only put finalized wordings on the Wiki as the main card text in the infobox, and only if we can get an image (of a card that is published or ready for publication). Having the image not match the text just looks bad. More up-to-date wordings that are still in flux or unpublished could go in a Revisions/Versions section until finalized and an image is acquired. Also the images from the new Dominion Online are a great candidates to add to the Alternate Versions section, but not as the main card image.

    Thoughts?
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Donald X.

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2017, 09:41:33 am »
+1

I'm okay with finalized images/PDFs from Donald/Jay for the new cards for now, since it will take a while to get reliably get physical copies of those in the hands of wiki members that can scan them.
The new Hinterlands is out (though any particular store might have an old copy).

How final are the wordings on the new Dominion Online? I assume all of them haven't been finalized and set off for publishing sans Hinterlands, but I could be wrong. I assume only Donald might know the answer to that one...
I am not going to look through and check all the wordings, and until it's been printed you never know for sure. To date only Hinterlands has gotten a new printing (after the main set and Intrigue); Prosperity is coming up.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2017, 10:07:12 am »
0

I'm okay with finalized images/PDFs from Donald/Jay for the new cards for now, since it will take a while to get reliably get physical copies of those in the hands of wiki members that can scan them.
The new Hinterlands is out (though any particular store might have an old copy).

Are 2nd edition Hinterlandses marked in any way?
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2017, 11:04:59 am »
+3

Are 2nd edition Hinterlandses marked in any way?
All new printings can be distinguished from the text on the back, which will note that you need the base cards from either Dominion or "the first edition of Intrigue." That magical phrase, "the first edition of Intrigue," of course does not appear on any original printings.

Some can be distinguished by card images, displaying the bigger font etc., though not Hinterlands. And some may have other ways you can tell.
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 02:05:54 am »
+3

Here's a shot at updating a card page with an updated Alternate versions section, renamed to Versions. I included all the version information there that seemed relevant, including a more expanded section on foreign language card info and also removed the "In other languages" section. Also added an image of the Shuffle iT card:

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/User:Dbclick/Masquerade

For new card wordings that haven't been sent off to printing, we can add an entry to the table with a note that the new wording isn't final. I'm still in favor of keeping the main image and card text at the top of the page be the latest printed one.

Let me know what you think (especially wero). When or if it's good enough, we can change the actual page and start making similar edits to the other card pages.
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 09:11:27 am »
0

I like it. I'm not so sure the non-English chart should reproduce their text, though - that takes up a lot of space. I would replace that with a translation/pronunciation column for the card name.

Also, Shuffle iT still has messed up images for a few of the Kingdom Treasures, and I'm going to keep harping on about that until they get fixed. :)
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Re: The Wiki moving into the 2nd Edition
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2017, 11:16:29 am »
+1

My thinking on listing the foreign card texts was to have a resource for having the card text for foreign language cards, which would be a help for people making Dominion-related tools (randomizers, tab generators, etc.), as well as a place to list translation errors. Not really strategy-related, but important and interesting info about the card nonetheless.
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