Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tlloyd]

I think the only thing possibly competitive really is chappeling down to where you're still buying an FG every turn. In which case steward is just going outclass chapel here, no?

if you are just playing a trash-> BM strategy then yeah i would think steward should easily win out.

I think the more difficult question is between Steward and Salvager. Salvager is slower at thinning your deck, but would probably be faster at gaining FGs, given the extra buy. The only times Salvager would miss double FG buys would be S/c/e/e/e (in which case steward would make you choose between FG and trashing) or S/c/c/c/c. After the FGs are gone, Salvager's +buy is less useful than Steward's +cards or +coin, but if you get out to an early lead, Salvager's ability to essentially trash your opponent's Province before he can buy it is huge.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Code: [Select]

<player name="Chapel+FG"
 author="HiveMindEmulator"
 description="">
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Chapel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chapel"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="10.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Fool$s_Gold"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
A little fix so it only plays chapel from first position. This beats pure FG 48-45. The reason is that as first player, you can still get an OK FG split, but as second player, you can't.

[ackack]

A little fix so it only plays chapel from first position. This beats pure FG 48-45. The reason is that as first player, you can still get an OK FG split, but as second player, you can't.

Is this predicated on the assumption that 1st player is going FG/FG from the getgo? A lot of the discussion is centered on the idea that FG is being picked up by the opponent as a blocker. If that's the case, then I don't see why second player should be getting hosed here, because they will often come out of the first shuffle with either a 1 FG edge or FG parity, not behind by 1 FG.

[glennC]

Nevermind I think HiveMindEmulator is right.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Is this predicated on the assumption that 1st player is going FG/FG from the getgo? A lot of the discussion is centered on the idea that FG is being picked up by the opponent as a blocker. If that's the case, then I don't see why second player should be getting hosed here, because they will often come out of the first shuffle with either a 1 FG edge or FG parity, not behind by 1 FG.

Yeah, so the script doesn't buy chapel if a fool's gold is already gone, which is probably a reasonable thing to do. Pure FG is not really a normal strategy, so the precise results of the sim don't matter too much. I think the main point is that getting trashing at the expense of losing the FG split is not worth it. If you can still get an even split, going for a trasher may be the right thing to do.

[WanderingWinder]

FYI, the simulator is playing chapel/FG roughly how I'd expect I would. At least, on chapelling things away. On trashing FG for gold, I'm unsure. (This is all based on some 'sample game' spot checks). It's pretty darn close either way with these sims though, but I'm guessing the straight BM/FG bot has slightly more room for improvement.
All of this makes me think that Steward/FG is somewhat better than straight FG as well. But much harder to sim.

[DG]

The fools gold/chapel bot needs a couple of improvements. It should buy provinces when it has half the fool's gold or the supply is empty. It shouldn't buy silver if it has sufficient fool's gold. With those in place it should be comparable to smithy + basic treasures as a deck (which I described before as reasonable). I don't see why it can't be improved significantly by adding other kingdom cards.

It suffers when compared to other simulated strategies that buy up a majority of fool's gold. In fact a smithy + fool's gold deck could be stronger if you buy the fool's gold first then the smithy afterwards, and it's a better deck than just fool's gold + chapel. On that basis the chapel doesn't seem as good an enabler for fool's gold as many +buy and drawing cards.

[glennC]

Testing FG/Steward versus Smithy:

It seems optimal to buy provinces once you have 4 FGs on the deck.
It makes sense to buy FG over gold and silver.

---
My thoughts on chapel:  I guess the problem with chapel is that you can't go crashing trashing in the beginning because you need to buy FG.  So Steward is almost just as good at trashing.  Later on, the problem with a really small deck is that it gets diluted very quickly once you start greening.  In the later game Steward is not a dead card like Chapel is.

[glennC]

Code: [Select]

<player name="Steward+FG"
 author="IamN00b"
 description="">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
   <buy name="Steward">
      <condition>
         <left type="countTurns"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Fool$s_Gold"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Steward + FG as above beats "Smithy" (in the simulator)
54% win - 42% lose

Code: [Select]

<player name="Smithy+FG"
 author="IamN00b"
 description="">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Fool$s_Gold"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Smithy/FG versus Smithy
51% win 41% lose

Smithy/FG versus Steward/FG
41%win 55% lose
I suppose that the trashing helps Steward hit FG collisions more often.

Code: [Select]

<player name="Woodcutter+FG"
 author="IamN00b"
 description="">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
   <buy name="Woodcutter">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Woodcutter"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Fool$s_Gold"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Woodcutter/FG versus Steward/FG
57% win 41% lose

Code: [Select]

<player name="Embassy+FG"
 author="IamN00b"
 description="">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Generated"/>
   <buy name="Embassy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Embassy"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Fool$s_Gold"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Woodcutter+FG (buying provinces when FG in deck >= 4) versus Embassy+FG (buying provinces when FG in deck >= 1)
42% win 54% lose

Code: [Select]

<player name="Woodcutter+FG"
 author="IamN00b"
 description="">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
   <buy name="Woodcutter">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Woodcutter"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Fool$s_Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Fool$s_Gold"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Trying to tweak the rules a little
Woodcutter+FG (buying provinces when FG in deck >= 0) versus Embassy+FG (buying provinces when FG in deck >= 1)
45% win 50% lose

[WanderingWinder]

Keep in mind that the simulator is misplaying steward...

[glennC]

true true.  baron seems similar to woodcutter with FG?.

[Asklepios]

Anecdotally, I've found that FG/nomad camp/FG-FG seems to work quite well. In fact, I'm not entirely convinced you need much trashing at all if you can buy FGs fast enough...

How does FG/nomad camp compare to FG/Chapel?

Likewise Spice Merchant / FG seems to be theoretically strong to me too: Lots of opportunities to buy 2 FGs at once in the early game, and copper trashing at the same time.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think it goes something like nomad camp > courtyard > remodel > envoy > smithy > woodcutter > spice merchant > steward > oracle > herbalist > worker's village/pawn/hamlet > chapel.

[tlloyd]

I think it goes something like nomad camp > courtyard > remodel > envoy > smithy > woodcutter > spice merchant > steward > oracle > herbalist > worker's village/pawn/hamlet > chapel.

No place for Salvager?! Am I the only one who thinks a Salvager/FG opening would be pretty strong?

[HiveMindEmulator]

Oh, I forgot salvager... It should probably be just below spice merchant I think...

The problem is that if you don't get it with an estate, you can't really take advantage of the +buy. Plus since your money cards are cheap, salvage isn't as good later in the game.

[O]

I think it goes something like nomad camp > courtyard > remodel > envoy > smithy > woodcutter > spice merchant > steward > oracle > herbalist > worker's village/pawn/hamlet > chapel.

I have a hard time believing this. Courtyard you obviously want after the FG race, at which point you should be buying provinces. I would guess Smithy>Envoy, probably, because the +1 card is mitigated by the fact that the variance between cards is much larger in a FG deck (veto silver/gold>copper for 1/2 coin difference, FG>copper for 3 coin difference.

And I would guess herbalist to play better than Woodcutter/Oracle. Topdeck fools gold is actually pretty strong..

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think it goes something like nomad camp > courtyard > remodel > envoy > smithy > woodcutter > spice merchant > steward > oracle > herbalist > worker's village/pawn/hamlet > chapel.

I have a hard time believing this. Courtyard you obviously want after the FG race, at which point you should be buying provinces. I would guess Smithy>Envoy, probably, because the +1 card is mitigated by the fact that the variance between cards is much larger in a FG deck (veto silver/gold>copper for 1/2 coin difference, FG>copper for 3 coin difference.

And I would guess herbalist to play better than Woodcutter/Oracle. Topdeck fools gold is actually pretty strong..

So this is not scientific at all. It's just the order I would prioritize if I were to play a game right now. But I will offer some justification.
Courtyard might even be better than nomad camp depending on how likely you're going to be able to use the buy later (i.e. with stables, nomad is better, but if there are no other helper cards, Courtyard is probably better. The play strategy of courtyard I think is just to open CY/CY, add about 3 FGs and then play CY+money. The CYs help line up the FGs so you don't need a lot. It's a minor improvement to the ridiculously fast CY+money strat and doesn't rely on mass FGs. Nomad into CY isn't really going to be faster, since you can't use the +buy on the draw turns without a village.

Envoy/smithy is a tossup. I had no really strong reasoning there. I mean, they don't see your hand, so they might end up blocking FG when it's your only one, making their "veto" less effective. It could go either way based on luck, but I put envoy ahead because regular envoy+money > smithy+money. Again, this is in the context of just getting a big draw card and like 3 FGs, not trying to race to half of them.

Herbalist's top-decking ability is really nice, but it suffers from not providing enough money. [herb, FG, FG, copper, estate] doesn't buy a province. But you definitely could be right. I wouldn't be all too surprised if it does end up being better, particularly if you have some sort of lab around so you don't get stuck on these kinds of 5-card hands too much.

[O]

I think it goes something like nomad camp > courtyard > remodel > envoy > smithy > woodcutter > spice merchant > steward > oracle > herbalist > worker's village/pawn/hamlet > chapel.

I have a hard time believing this. Courtyard you obviously want after the FG race, at which point you should be buying provinces. I would guess Smithy>Envoy, probably, because the +1 card is mitigated by the fact that the variance between cards is much larger in a FG deck (veto silver/gold>copper for 1/2 coin difference, FG>copper for 3 coin difference.

And I would guess herbalist to play better than Woodcutter/Oracle. Topdeck fools gold is actually pretty strong..

So this is not scientific at all. It's just the order I would prioritize if I were to play a game right now. But I will offer some justification.
Courtyard might even be better than nomad camp depending on how likely you're going to be able to use the buy later (i.e. with stables, nomad is better, but if there are no other helper cards, Courtyard is probably better. The play strategy of courtyard I think is just to open CY/CY, add about 3 FGs and then play CY+money. The CYs help line up the FGs so you don't need a lot. It's a minor improvement to the ridiculously fast CY+money strat and doesn't rely on mass FGs. Nomad into CY isn't really going to be faster, since you can't use the +buy on the draw turns without a village.

Envoy/smithy is a tossup. I had no really strong reasoning there. I mean, they don't see your hand, so they might end up blocking FG when it's your only one, making their "veto" less effective. It could go either way based on luck, but I put envoy ahead because regular envoy+money > smithy+money. Again, this is in the context of just getting a big draw card and like 3 FGs, not trying to race to half of them.

Herbalist's top-decking ability is really nice, but it suffers from not providing enough money. [herb, FG, FG, copper, estate] doesn't buy a province. But you definitely could be right. I wouldn't be all too surprised if it does end up being better, particularly if you have some sort of lab around so you don't get stuck on these kinds of 5-card hands too much.

Funny how I argue that Herbalist's topdeck is so great and than completely ignore that same aspect when thinking about courtyard. You're probably right on courtyard.

[jonts26]

Perhaps Mandarin might actually be useful in a FG deck. With Mandarin you only need 2 FG's to get a province and the topdecking would be useful to save extra FGs for next turn.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Oh, the other one I forgot is Horse Traders. HT+2FGs is also a province, and it plays just like woodcutter in the early game.

[Anon79]

Margrave has interesting interactions with FG...

[HiveMindEmulator]

^Of course there are 5's that beat everything on this list: Mint, Wharf, Margrave, Council Room. Market, Festival and Mine would probably be below Nomad Camp.

Oh, also Bridge is really really good. Up there with Remodel, because while it's just like woodcutter early, the cost reduction aspect makes it easier to use the +buy for extra VPs later.

[Anon79]

Heh, just played an interesting FG game:
Apothecary, Baron, Fool's Gold, Forge, Lookout, Mine, Possession, Potion, Saboteur, Treasure Map, Vineyard

oppo opened Baron. I thought it over and decided that hey, if he gets 10 FG's, my Possessions will really rock. So I duly opened with the dreaded Potion/Copper...

Opponent spent the next few turns getting the FG's, as expected, while I bought apothecaries and possessions. Turns out, there's a very interesting mechanic with Possession and FG: if on a Possessed hand I pick up 4 FG's, I can play 3 of them, buy a Province, and since I'm now the one gaining the Province, I can "trash" the last FG for a Gold...

I probably significantly misplayed after the opening, but man, is it ever fun to possess a 10 FG deck!

[ftl]

Ouch, and apothecary makes it actually viable to get and cycle Possessions quickly enough. Buy up apothecaries, get Possessions with them and copper...

[Asklepios]

Just to satisfy my curiosity, would someone simulate Ambassador+Fool's Gold vs the above options for me?