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MattLee

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Discard and draw mechanic
« on: December 27, 2016, 05:06:37 pm »
+2

I'm creating this thread separate from my main thread to develop a new mechanic. I want to do a few vanilla cards in my set but want a way to give them a something extra and unique. What do you guys think of tacking this line of text onto cards -

"You may discard this card during your action phase. If you do, draw a card"

Its not the quite same as +1 Card +1 Action since it doesn't use up an action and obviously you don't get the +1 Card +1 Action if you actually play the card. If you have too many terminal actions you can discard this and draw. If you need that extra dollar to buy a Provence you can cross your fingers and hope to draw the treasure you need. Here a quick sample-



Thoughts?

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AdrianHealey

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2016, 05:08:48 pm »
+3

I like it. But I *do* think it should be a reaction-type card, no?
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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2016, 05:22:46 pm »
+1

I like it. But I *do* think it should be a reaction-type card, no?

I agree.
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Marcory

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2016, 05:44:19 pm »
+1

What about borrowing Villa's wording? Thus, you could have,  "At the start of your buy phase, you may discard this, to draw a card. If you do, return to your Action phase."

This avoids having to invent something to React to. Even if you have Actions left over, you can just declare that you're done with your Actions, move to your Buy phase, play this, and move on.

That said, I think that this card is pretty weak. Given that it's generally strictly worse than Squire, I think that it could safely cost $2, and even then, most people would only buy it when it's the only +Buy--i.e., for the same reasons they buy Herbalist or even Ruined Market. Maybe you could change the discard bonus to +2 cards?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2016, 05:54:07 pm »
+2

I can't find the thread, but a long time ago I made the suggestion of cards that have a "Choose one: +1 Card, +1 Action; or [some other conditionally good effect]". Same basic thing you're talking about here, except in the case where you draw it dead with a terminal drawer.

I agree with the other comment about timing; just letting you discard it "during your action phase" isn't good; it needs to be at a specific time. I wonder if it's worth the complex wording just to let you play it even if it's drawn dead. Doing so is mixing 2 mechanics into one; the optional cantrip and the card you can use even if you draw it dead. And using it when you draw it dead won't be great anyway; if you end up drawing an action, you can't play that action anyway.
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Nflickner

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2016, 07:11:54 pm »
+1

I like it.  Perhaps "...If you do, reveal it and draw a card."  That way it keeps your basic idea intact, but adds accountability.
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MattLee

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2016, 11:55:50 pm »
0

Good points, the timing is defiantly off. The Villa text would work but is more complicated that I want - I'm trying to make a set about the complexity level of Intrigue. Making it a reaction might work but I probably wouldn't want this text on 3 cards in the set like I was hoping if they all have to be reactions (if it even turns out to be worthwhile making 3). The choose one: +1 Card +1 Action or something else idea is easy to understand and has potential even if its not quite the same effect. I might toy with that.

Another idea - "When you discard this from your hand during your clean up phase, draw an additional card when you draw a new hand"

Yikes, there has to be a better way to word that. I'd avoid the timing problem but maybe it would still have to be a reaction. And it would still have the accountability problem.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2016, 01:36:05 am »
+1

You could just make a new type "Vanisher" or something, and say "At the start of your action phase or when you finish resolving an action, you can discard any Vanisher card to draw another card." Then you don't even have to have extra text on the card except the Vanisher type.

Chris is me

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2016, 10:43:57 am »
+1

I would do something like "If you still have Actions remaining, you may discard this, to draw a card." This seems like the most intuitive way to do it, without requiring phase tracking or dealing with the "is it still my action phase when I have 0 actions" question.
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Limetime

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2016, 10:48:19 am »
+1

I like how you can discard it from play but maybe it gets broken with champion?
Draw deck
play negotiator
discard negotiator from play, drawing negotiator
repeat
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GendoIkari

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2016, 10:31:09 pm »
+1

I would do something like "If you still have Actions remaining, you may discard this, to draw a card." This seems like the most intuitive way to do it, without requiring phase tracking or dealing with the "is it still my action phase when I have 0 actions" question.

This is almost identical to just a regular action with +1 card +1 action as an option.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2016, 09:46:52 am »
+1

I would do something like "If you still have Actions remaining, you may discard this, to draw a card." This seems like the most intuitive way to do it, without requiring phase tracking or dealing with the "is it still my action phase when I have 0 actions" question.

This is almost identical to just a regular action with +1 card +1 action as an option.

How is it not identical?

I can only think of throning?
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Chris is me

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2016, 01:54:58 pm »
+1

I would do something like "If you still have Actions remaining, you may discard this, to draw a card." This seems like the most intuitive way to do it, without requiring phase tracking or dealing with the "is it still my action phase when I have 0 actions" question.

This is almost identical to just a regular action with +1 card +1 action as an option.

How is it not identical?

I can only think of throning?

I thought it was obvious - if you discard the card, you can draw it again and play it properly if you get the chance.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2016, 02:01:49 pm »
+1

I would do something like "If you still have Actions remaining, you may discard this, to draw a card." This seems like the most intuitive way to do it, without requiring phase tracking or dealing with the "is it still my action phase when I have 0 actions" question.

This is almost identical to just a regular action with +1 card +1 action as an option.

How is it not identical?

I can only think of throning?

I thought it was obvious - if you discard the card, you can draw it again and play it properly if you get the chance.

Ah, yes, that too.

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GendoIkari

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2016, 06:04:44 pm »
+1

I would do something like "If you still have Actions remaining, you may discard this, to draw a card." This seems like the most intuitive way to do it, without requiring phase tracking or dealing with the "is it still my action phase when I have 0 actions" question.

This is almost identical to just a regular action with +1 card +1 action as an option.

How is it not identical?

I can only think of throning?

Different for Peddler, Conspirator, Horn of Pleanty, Pilgramage, etc; anything that cares about cards in play. Also different because of the possibility to redraw the card later in the turn. But still; similar enough that the complex wording is excessive.
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MattLee

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2016, 01:04:41 am »
+2

I'm going to be trying out the +1 Card +1 Action idea. Its not exactly what I wanted but its close and super simple. Does anyone have any input on the power level of these cards before I print them out?

   
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2016, 06:17:45 am »
+2

I definitely like the first one, but I think (like squire) it could either use a third option or something below a _______- (or both.)

The second one is a bit niche. (And I don't like cards that so explicitly promote big money. :p) I think it desperately needs a +buy on the silver part. (Or even on the +1 card +1 action part.)

Inovate is like a better remodel, pure and simple. I don't like cards that are so blantly a super version of another version. How about 'gain a card costing up to $1' more and still make it cost $4?
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navical

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2016, 06:26:08 am »
+3

Ghost Town is basically Hamlet without the sifting or the +buy option.
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Miked

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2016, 07:37:15 am »
+1

Ghost Town: A bit too much worse than Hamlet I think, perhaps you could get a coin or buy with the actions or give it a +2 Cards option or something.

Negotiator: Should cost $5 because of Explorer, maybe it's too similar to Explorer? I prefer treasure gaining cards to be on the weaker side because they can lead to pretty dull games.

Innovate: I think this might be a bit too good. Remodelling to hand is really powerful, Replace is quite strong and that only puts the card on your deck.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2016, 10:03:07 am »
+1

Ghost town - Action - $1

Choose one:
+2 Actions
or +1 Card, +1 Action
----
With this in play, you may trash a card from your hand or play when you gain a card.

Or something like that.
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MattLee

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2016, 10:32:57 am »
0

Thanks for the input :)

Ghost town - Yeah this might need something extra. Could I make this "+2 Actions and you may trash a card from your hand or +1 Card +1 Action"? I'm defiantly not dead set on the themes for any of these cards but the trashing idea seems fitting for ghost town. and I might save the +Buy for Negotiator. I also like the idea of dropping the cost to 1 and just keeping it as is.

Negotiator - I can see what you mean about this leading to dull games but I like the idea of a card thats good in the early game when you want to build wealth and can be recycled late game when you don't really want more silver clogging up your deck (explorer makes up for this but hopefully gaining you golds late game). I can't see myself paying 5 for this but we'll see, How about making it cost 4 and adding +1 Buy?

Innovate -  Maybe I could gain the card to the top of the deck instead of the hand and have it be balanced since it doesn't have the cursing power of replace.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 10:34:08 am by MattLee »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2016, 11:19:24 am »
+1

How about this for Negotiator:

Negotioator - $5
+$1
Choose one: Gain a silver to your hand, putting it into your hand or +1 Card, +1 action?

Peddler or terminal +$3?

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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2016, 12:06:33 pm »
+1

How about this for Negotiator:

Negotioator - $5
+$1
Choose one: Gain a silver to your hand, putting it into your hand or +1 Card, +1 action?

Peddler or terminal +$3?
You might want to fix that ;D.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2016, 01:40:26 pm »
+1

It just now occurred to me that Pawn and Hamlet have this same mechanic built-in.
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MattLee

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2017, 11:31:47 am »
0

It just now occurred to me that Pawn and Hamlet have this same mechanic built-in.

Oh dang you're right  :o

I tried out Ghost town last night and in the in the one game we played with it it actually seemed a little too powerful with the trashing effect. I'll try it more before I nerf it though.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 11:36:49 am by MattLee »
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MattLee

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2017, 10:34:02 am »
0

I'm thinking an attack with the optional +1 Card, +1 Action could be interesting. On a curser, after the curses are out this could be recycled. On a militia, it could be recycled if their hand is already too low for it to work. How would you do it? I'm thinking something like this:

Quote
Warlock

$4
Action - Attack
Choose one: + $1 and each other player gains a Curse, or +1 Card, +1 Action
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2017, 10:41:00 am »
+2

Looks very strong for $4. Difficult to be sure whether it's stronger than Sea Hag, which is not exactly a weak card for its cost.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2017, 11:23:46 am »
+2

Looks very strong for $4. Difficult to be sure whether it's stronger than Sea Hag, which is not exactly a weak card for its cost.

Seems way stronger than Sea Hag to me. Yes, the curse going on your deck definitely adds a fair amount to Sea Hag, but both an extra $1 and it not being a dead card later seem like much more.
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MattLee

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2017, 11:33:25 am »
0

I wonder if I dropped the + $1 if it would be too boring. Donald has said he doesn't do cards like Sea Hag and Saboteur with no benefit to the player because people don't like them. Would the ability to cycle it out make it interesting enough to play? I'm guessing not  :-\
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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2017, 08:13:25 pm »
+2

Maybe it could work if you increase the cost and buffed the effect? Perhaps give it buy so you might not automatically cycle it after the curses are out.
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MattLee

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2017, 09:54:20 pm »
0



I've got a quite a bit of time testing this one and I'm not sure where to go with it. I tired a few things and settled on

Quote
Choose one: +2 Actions and you may trash a non-treasure from your hand or +1 Card, +1 Action.

Letting you trash anything seemed too good and the card rarely got cycled out. Actually I think thats why there are no offical village trashers, thinning out the deck makes makes the villages more and more powerful as you are more likely to draw your actions. Anyways, this lets you chuck your Estates and fights junking attacks. The card is fine but its uncommon for you to have only $2 to spend once the game gets going and if you're building an engine you're going to keep needing to buy these and wasting any left over money which feels bad. Adding a +Buy instead of the trashing would let you get more of them without wasting money. Would anyone buying like that?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 10:15:45 pm by MattLee »
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MattLee

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Re: Discard and draw mechanic
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2017, 11:05:19 pm »
+1

I've given up on Ghost town and Negotiator. Ghost town works but just isn't much fun any way you cut it. Negotiator was as boring as I should have realized it would be. I still think theres room for a card with this +1 Card, +1 Action text but I don't know what it would be..
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