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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards  (Read 37970 times)

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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #200 on: January 11, 2017, 03:28:21 am »
+1

I would say Adventures was really power creepy

Someone said that Seaside was power creepy, with Fishing Village and Diplomat.

I find Empires a bit stronger than Adventures. Legionaire is about the best terminal Gold ever.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #201 on: January 11, 2017, 04:56:09 am »
+1

Empires may feel slightly stronger than average, but that is due to lack of awful cards and not due to power creep. And even the weak cards tend to be cantrips so they are not completely useless. Also, every expansion has about 5 power cards that can dominate games with their presence (Farmers' Market and Legionary not being among them).

Seriously, compare the 5 best card from Intrigue 1ed. and Empires and you'll see there is not much difference between the two.

One could argue that Adventures events were quite above average in their strength, but Donald turned that down aswell with his Empires events. Also strong events are not that annoying since they don't dominate (no pun intended) games as much as cards do, in terms of how you build your deck.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #202 on: January 11, 2017, 09:04:14 am »
+2

Villa is pretty powerful, but in many cases it's just a village with low opportunity cost.  You might draw some actions dead, and save your turn by buying a Villa, but it still cost $3 to do that so your turn is still somewhat less than amazing.  The only thing that made the turn amazing was that you got an extra Villa, roughly for free.  Late in the game, saving a dud turn can be worth much more than $3, but by this time the Villas may have already piled, or perhaps you have so many Villas that the dud turn is missing draw rather than actions.

I rated Port higher than Villa.  Port is #2 for me.

That changes how you build the entire deck though. Villa isn't an "oops I fucked up, better buy this to save my turn" card - it is a village you buy only exactly when you need it. You just get terminals first a lot of the time, and then sprinkle in Villa exactly as your deck needs them rather than having to thread them in during the game and having all these awkward turns where cards don't line up. It's way easier to draw your deck this way. It's a whole different game.

Plus there's all the fun cool tricks like Alms / Villa and whatnot.

Port is really good too.
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McGarnacle

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #203 on: January 11, 2017, 09:20:44 am »
0

Villa is pretty powerful, but in many cases it's just a village with low opportunity cost.  You might draw some actions dead, and save your turn by buying a Villa, but it still cost $3 to do that so your turn is still somewhat less than amazing.  The only thing that made the turn amazing was that you got an extra Villa, roughly for free.  Late in the game, saving a dud turn can be worth much more than $3, but by this time the Villas may have already piled, or perhaps you have so many Villas that the dud turn is missing draw rather than actions.

I rated Port higher than Villa.  Port is #2 for me.

That changes how you build the entire deck though. Villa isn't an "oops I fucked up, better buy this to save my turn" card - it is a village you buy only exactly when you need it. You just get terminals first a lot of the time, and then sprinkle in Villa exactly as your deck needs them rather than having to thread them in during the game and having all these awkward turns where cards don't line up. It's way easier to draw your deck this way. It's a whole different game.

Plus there's all the fun cool tricks like Alms / Villa and whatnot.

Port is really good too.

Port is also really interesting and unique. It kinda feels like Border Village; pay for one card, get two.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #204 on: January 11, 2017, 10:24:14 am »
0

Port is really good too.

Port is also really interesting and unique. It kinda feels like Border Village; pay for one card, get two.

Port is particularly unique in its distribution since it only takes six buys to empty the pile instead of ten.  On boards when it's the only village, it's vastly more critical to win the split than with other villages.  Losing the Fishing Village split 4-6 is bad, but losing the Port split is disastrous: you get four villages while your opponent gets eight, i.e. twice the terminal space!  For this reason especially, I think Port definitely earns its place among the villages on this list--each Port purchase is worth so much more than just $4 since they're a limited commodity and more quickly deny terminal space to your opponent.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #205 on: January 11, 2017, 10:34:52 am »
+4

It's weird that sometimes, rushing Port is a necessary thing that changes the game. Splitting those 8-4 is just so dramatic on so many boards. Who's the Village Idiot now? :)

Legit, easily more than like 20% of Port boards should have players buying Port over other components until they are gone.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #206 on: January 11, 2017, 03:21:27 pm »
0

Wow, I missed the previous decline of Sea Hag; I still remember it as being pretty constantly #1. The way the metagame changes is just one of the things I love about Dominion.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #207 on: January 11, 2017, 09:37:47 pm »
0

It's weird that sometimes, rushing Port is a necessary thing that changes the game. Splitting those 8-4 is just so dramatic on so many boards. Who's the Village Idiot now? :)

Legit, easily more than like 20% of Port boards should have players buying Port over other components until they are gone.

If Port is the only Village, rushing it is legit
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weety4

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #208 on: January 12, 2017, 03:05:51 am »
0

Villa is pretty powerful, but in many cases it's just a village with low opportunity cost.  You might draw some actions dead, and save your turn by buying a Villa, but it still cost $3 to do that so your turn is still somewhat less than amazing.  The only thing that made the turn amazing was that you got an extra Villa, roughly for free.  Late in the game, saving a dud turn can be worth much more than $3, but by this time the Villas may have already piled, or perhaps you have so many Villas that the dud turn is missing draw rather than actions.

I rated Port higher than Villa.  Port is #2 for me.

That changes how you build the entire deck though. Villa isn't an "oops I fucked up, better buy this to save my turn" card - it is a village you buy only exactly when you need it. You just get terminals first a lot of the time, and then sprinkle in Villa exactly as your deck needs them rather than having to thread them in during the game and having all these awkward turns where cards don't line up. It's way easier to draw your deck this way. It's a whole different game.

Plus there's all the fun cool tricks like Alms / Villa and whatnot.

Port is really good too.

Port is also really interesting and unique. It kinda feels like Border Village; pay for one card, get two.
Good point. It uses a quite similar mechanism as Border Village, buy a village, pay one more and get an extra village (instead of buy any 5, pay one more and get an extra village).
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #209 on: January 12, 2017, 03:31:48 am »
0

Port is also one of the best cards in the game for the token events, along with Magpie.

Buy a Lost City/Bazaar, get another Lost City/Bazaar for free!
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #210 on: January 13, 2017, 10:10:37 am »
+1

Part 7, the final one.

allanfieldhouse

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #211 on: January 13, 2017, 10:15:08 am »
+1

I feel like Remake only improved (its average) because everyone just auto-voted it first. It's been first for a while, and nothing has obviously replaced it, so everyone just puts it first again (it picked up the last remaining Sea Hag votes).

Edit: "a while" being one year apparently...
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 10:17:32 am by allanfieldhouse »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #212 on: January 13, 2017, 10:16:15 am »
0

It's been first for a while

No, it got first the first time last year.

Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #213 on: January 13, 2017, 10:54:04 am »
0

Yay, Herald is in the top 5 now :)
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Witherweaver

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #214 on: January 13, 2017, 10:55:32 am »
+1

Herald is #1 in my <3.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #215 on: January 13, 2017, 10:55:51 am »
0

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #216 on: January 13, 2017, 11:04:34 am »
0

There's an error in the video--it says Magpie went up from #19 to #12.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #217 on: January 13, 2017, 11:12:04 am »
0

There's an error in the video--it says Magpie went up from #19 to #12.

Oops, sorry. Copy & paste error from Port.

aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #218 on: January 13, 2017, 11:13:11 am »
+5

I'm beginning to resist the Herald hype.  I'm doubtful that it's a top 10 $4 card.  Herald can help make engines that are lacking either +actions or +card (or both), which is powerful, of course.  But it is a mediocre card on boards where you can't get thin, or there isn't good payload.  I feel like that is almost ~50% of games where Herald is mediocre.

In general, I have a higher opinion of the cards that are great in all decks: Ironmonger, Jack of all Trades, and Magpie.

Edit: Qvist comments that all the top 10 $4 cards are engine cards now.  I don't think that's accurate.  Throne Room, Bridge, Herald, and Remake are all engine-only cards, but the rest can be good in a variety of decks.  Magpie, Ironmonger, and Jack of all Trades are great in nearly every deck type, but thin engines least so.  Tournament works well in a good stuff deck that just aims to reach $8 and 1 buy each turn.  Wandering Minstrel is great in engines, but also good in slogs.  Villa enables sloppy money + terminal draw hybrid strategies (okay, that's a reach).
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 11:24:56 am by aku_chi »
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #219 on: January 13, 2017, 11:18:00 am »
+2

I'm beginning to resist the Herald hype.  I'm doubtful that it's a top 10 $4 card.  Herald can help make engines that are lacking either +actions or +card (or both), which is powerful, of course.  But it is a mediocre card on boards where you can't get thin, or there isn't good payload.  I feel like that is almost ~50% of games where Herald is mediocre.

In general, I have a higher opinion of the cards that are great in all decks: Ironmonger, Jack of all Trades, and Magpie.

Yeah, there was that whole Herald vs Ironmonger thread a while back. Herald is just so much fun when it works though!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #220 on: January 13, 2017, 12:26:06 pm »
0

Content with the very top of the list, except Villa should be Top 4.

Happy that Wandering Minstrel is where it deserves to be, even if some people think a card being a splitter means any other value it has must automatically be negligible...
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #221 on: January 13, 2017, 01:27:32 pm »
+1

I'm beginning to resist the Herald hype.  I'm doubtful that it's a top 10 $4 card.  Herald can help make engines that are lacking either +actions or +card (or both), which is powerful, of course.  But it is a mediocre card on boards where you can't get thin, or there isn't good payload.  I feel like that is almost ~50% of games where Herald is mediocre.

In general, I have a higher opinion of the cards that are great in all decks: Ironmonger, Jack of all Trades, and Magpie.

Herald is not a mediocre card on boards where you can't get thin. I mean, sure, you don't want it in BM or slogs, but engines have been getting more and more common over the past few expansions, and it's one of the best engine cards in the game.

Say you're running an engine without any form of trashing - they are fairly rare, but do exist, especially if there's some other form of guaranteeing consistency (for example: delayed draw, Scheme, Summon, Prince on a Colony board). In those cases, you'll probably buy an Action card every turn, and it's likely there are gainers or +Buy so you'll acquire them even faster. So after 7 or 8 turns, you probably have 10 Action cards and your Action density is 50%, and it only goes up from there.

Say you have an Action density of 50%, and assume the average thing happens with 2 Heralds. You play one Herald, hitting C/E (so it's a cantrip), and then another, hitting an Action card (so it's basically a Lost City). Vanilla Cantrip + Lost City = Village + Laboratory. So your two Heralds are as good as a Village and a Lab, which I wouldn't call mediocre. And as you add more and more Action cards, your odds of hitting one with Herald increases, meaning you get more Lost Cities and fewer vanilla cantrips.

Of course, the other extreme case is where you trash all your starting cards, in which case every Herald is a Lost City without the drawback of giving your opponent +1 Card upon buying it. That's pretty insane for $4.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #222 on: January 13, 2017, 04:50:25 pm »
0

Can anyone explain why Spice Merchant is #14 and has a low deviation?  I had it at #3.  I feel it's almost always an auto-open, and one of the best thinners that isn't a remodeler, possibly even the best besides the powerhouses (Chapel, Amb, Masq, Donate).  Even with remodelers (like the #1 $4), I often like the Spice first, and then the Spice itself is a good remodel target once it's done its job.  There must be something I'm not seeing.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 04:55:43 pm by Dingan »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #223 on: January 13, 2017, 05:04:32 pm »
0

Can anyone explain why Spice Merchant is #14 and has a low deviation?  I had it at #3.  I feel it's almost always an auto-open, and one of the best thinners that isn't a remodeler, possibly even the best besides the powerhouses (Chapel, Amb, Masq, Donate).  Even with remodelers (like the #1 $4), I often like the Spice first, and then the Spice itself is a good remodel target once it's done its job.  There must be something I'm not seeing.

It's a fantastic Copper trasher. All the cards above it are just more important, though? At least that's how the voters felt, and I think it's a reasonable claim.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #224 on: January 13, 2017, 06:27:38 pm »
0

Can anyone explain why Spice Merchant is #14 and has a low deviation?  I had it at #3.  I feel it's almost always an auto-open, and one of the best thinners that isn't a remodeler, possibly even the best besides the powerhouses (Chapel, Amb, Masq, Donate).  Even with remodelers (like the #1 $4), I often like the Spice first, and then the Spice itself is a good remodel target once it's done its job.  There must be something I'm not seeing.

No, I actually think there's something that you are seeing and a lot of others aren't. Spice Merchant is equivalent to playing a Lab and a cantrip trasher, which is insanely good for $4, plus it comes with extra versatility. In general, I think that people tend to evaluate these cards less based on how much the cards actually affect the game and more based on how it feels to play the card, and cards such as Spice Merchant don't feel that amazing until you really pay attention to how much faster it makes your engine come together. The same is true for Loan, which was even more underrated than SM (but not as good either).
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