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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards  (Read 73583 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #150 on: January 08, 2017, 08:52:52 pm »
+1

"Village", however, could mean any of the following:

  • The card whose name is just Village
  • Any card with the word "village" in its title (sometimes including Ruined Village)
  • Any card that always does everything that vanilla Village does
  • Any card that always has an effect roughly comparable to Village (e.g. Lost City might not qualify because it's too powerful and Squire might not qualify because it's too weak)
  • Any card that always or through a choice effect explicitly gives +2 actions
  • Any card that is capable of giving +2 actions
  • Any splitter
  • Any combination of these (for example, to include Ruined Village as well as cards such as Squire)

I'm reasonably certain you're being willfully obtuse.  There's really only two colloquial uses for "Village" - the card Village, and anything that gives +2 Actions.  Wandering Minstrel is a village, Ruined Village is not.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #151 on: January 08, 2017, 09:16:00 pm »
0

"Village", however, could mean any of the following:

  • The card whose name is just Village
  • Any card with the word "village" in its title (sometimes including Ruined Village)
  • Any card that always does everything that vanilla Village does
  • Any card that always has an effect roughly comparable to Village (e.g. Lost City might not qualify because it's too powerful and Squire might not qualify because it's too weak)
  • Any card that always or through a choice effect explicitly gives +2 actions
  • Any card that is capable of giving +2 actions
  • Any splitter
  • Any combination of these (for example, to include Ruined Village as well as cards such as Squire)

I'm reasonably certain you're being willfully obtuse.  There's really only two colloquial uses for "Village" - the card Village, and anything that gives +2 Actions.  Wandering Minstrel is a village, Ruined Village is not.

Broadly, "village" can refer to anything that gives +2 actions or more, both explicitly (e.g. Village) and implicitly (e.g. Throne Room). So I mostly agree with you.

Still, there is a dilemma when it comes to whether or not Throne Room, Herald, Golem, etc. are considered a "village". Do consider them villages and you potentially get newer players to be unaware that the the scope of what is a "village" is so wide. Don't consider them as villages and you imply that broad statements about villages weren't also meant to encompass Throne Room, Herald, etc.

Splitter is a nice generic term for something that can be applied to anything that increases the limit of terminal actions (cards which use up an action), but it is not initially obvious what the term splitter is supposed to signify.

Hence the village/splitter terminology debate.

It doesn't help that we throw the term "necropolis" on stuff like Nobles and Squire that do not give +2 actions and card draw on the same play. Whether or not Necropolis is also a Village depends on context in the end.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #152 on: January 09, 2017, 12:16:58 am »
+2

But...what about calling the card Village Vanillage?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #153 on: January 09, 2017, 12:32:39 am »
0

But...what about calling the card Village Vanillage?

Not gonna lie, I thought everyone forgot about "Vanillage" and using it here would make me seem like I'm trying to be hip.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #154 on: January 09, 2017, 03:32:39 am »
+1

TL;DR: Splitters are splitters because it would be weird to call Summon "a village" and it would also be weird to not group Summon together with Village.

What's going on here? Awaclus is the one making sense.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #155 on: January 09, 2017, 06:11:11 am »
0

and anything that gives +2 Actions.

and that categorization is something that everyone has to unlearn during their process of climbing up the leaderboard from the intermediate ranks to the high level ranks.

Also, I have literally seen each of those definitions being used for the term "village". Some of them only a couple of times (possibly by the same guy every time), but definitions where Ruined Village is a "village" are not even some of the rarest ones.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #156 on: January 09, 2017, 06:43:47 am »
+1


Broadly, "village" can refer to anything that gives +2 actions or more, both explicitly (e.g. Village) and implicitly (e.g. Throne Room). So I mostly agree with you.

Still, there is a dilemma when it comes to whether or not Throne Room, Herald, Golem, etc. are considered a "village". Do consider them villages and you potentially get newer players to be unaware that the the scope of what is a "village" is so wide. Don't consider them as villages and you imply that broad statements about villages weren't also meant to encompass Throne Room, Herald, etc.
I usually call villages villages and stuff like Throne Room and so on pseudo-villages.
Splitter is not a bad term as this is how most folks track their remaining actions but it sounds far too technical for my taste. Dominion is not the most thematic game around, no need to further emphasize that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #157 on: January 09, 2017, 06:57:10 am »
0

I usually call villages villages and stuff like Throne Room and so on pseudo-villages.

I really hope that doesn't result in you thinking that they are different in any meaningful way.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #158 on: January 09, 2017, 07:00:27 am »
0

I usually call villages villages and stuff like Throne Room and so on pseudo-villages.

I really hope that doesn't result in you thinking that they are different in any meaningful way.
Throne Room is a quite different card than Village or Sacrifice.

I call cards like Throne Room, Herald and so on pseudo-villages because they are conditional villages, i.e. they can yield 2 Actions. Ordinary villages on the other hand unconditionally provide 2 Actions.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #159 on: January 09, 2017, 07:14:45 am »
0

I usually call villages villages and stuff like Throne Room and so on pseudo-villages.

I really hope that doesn't result in you thinking that they are different in any meaningful way.
Throne Room is a quite different card than Village or Sacrifice.

It's different in the sense that it's a lot more powerful, but not really in any other way.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #160 on: January 09, 2017, 07:30:37 am »
0

I usually call villages villages and stuff like Throne Room and so on pseudo-villages.

I really hope that doesn't result in you thinking that they are different in any meaningful way.
Throne Room is a quite different card than Village or Sacrifice.

It's different in the sense that it's a lot more powerful, but not really in any other way.
That's like saying that Copper and Platinum are identical as they both provide coins.  ::)
You are simply wrong and like other posters here indicate, it probably makes no sense to discuss with you.

Sacrifice, Tribute, Throne Room and Village are 4 totally different cards. The only thing they have in common is that they can (sometimes) yield 2 Actions.  Thus they have even less in common than Silver and all those 5$ 'Silver with an extra' Treasures.
Furthermore TR mainly copies with "villageifying" being a secondary effect. A pseudo-village like Sacrifice can hardly be used like a village at all and a card like Tribute is most of the times a degenerate village whose efficacy depends upon the Action card density in the opponent's deck.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #161 on: January 09, 2017, 07:34:26 am »
0

I usually call villages villages and stuff like Throne Room and so on pseudo-villages.

I really hope that doesn't result in you thinking that they are different in any meaningful way.
Throne Room is a quite different card than Village or Sacrifice.

It's different in the sense that it's a lot more powerful, but not really in any other way.
That's like saying that Copper and Platinum are identical as they both provide coins.  ::)
You are simply wrong and like other posters here indicate, it probably makes no sense to discuss with you.

Sacrifice, Tribute, Throne Room and Village are 4 totally different cards. The only thing they have in common is that they can (sometimes) yield 2 Actions.  Thus they have even less in common than Silver and all those 5$ 'Silver with an extra' Treasures.
Furthermore TR mainly copies with "villageifying" being a secondary effect. A pseudo-village like Sacrifice can hardly be used like a village at all and a card like Tribute is most of the times a degenerate village whose efficacy depends upon the Action card density in the opponent's deck.

Well, that is something you will have to unlearn during your process of climbing up the leaderboard from the intermediate ranks to the high level ranks.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #162 on: January 09, 2017, 08:08:54 am »
0

I usually call villages villages and stuff like Throne Room and so on pseudo-villages.

I really hope that doesn't result in you thinking that they are different in any meaningful way.
Throne Room is a quite different card than Village or Sacrifice.

It's different in the sense that it's a lot more powerful, but not really in any other way.

I get your point, but I would say they are quite different. For one, Village gives you draw, which TR does not. Sacrifice trashes. The only thing they have in common is being able to occasionally play 2 more actions. Would you say that Fishing Village and Walled village are not "different in any meaningful way"? Likewise, Village and Sacrifice let you play different cards. Throne Room let's you play the same one. Are Cultist and TR essentially the same, because both just let you play copies of a card?
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #163 on: January 09, 2017, 08:17:04 am »
0

I usually call villages villages and stuff like Throne Room and so on pseudo-villages.

I really hope that doesn't result in you thinking that they are different in any meaningful way.
Throne Room is a quite different card than Village or Sacrifice.

It's different in the sense that it's a lot more powerful, but not really in any other way.

I get your point, but I would say they are quite different. For one, Village gives you draw, which TR does not. Sacrifice trashes. The only thing they have in common is being able to occasionally play 2 more actions. Would you say that Fishing Village and Walled village are not "different in any meaningful way"? Likewise, Village and Sacrifice let you play different cards. Throne Room let's you play the same one. Are Cultist and TR essentially the same, because both just let you play copies of a card?

I don't think you get my point. The point is that Bridge is on the kingdom. Does the card allow you to play 8 Bridges on a single turn? If yes, it's worth grouping together with all the other cards for which the answer is yes.

Also TR certainly lets you play different cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #164 on: January 09, 2017, 08:32:17 am »
0

I usually call villages villages and stuff like Throne Room and so on pseudo-villages.

I really hope that doesn't result in you thinking that they are different in any meaningful way.
Throne Room is a quite different card than Village or Sacrifice.

It's different in the sense that it's a lot more powerful, but not really in any other way.

I get your point, but I would say they are quite different. For one, Village gives you draw, which TR does not. Sacrifice trashes. The only thing they have in common is being able to occasionally play 2 more actions. Would you say that Fishing Village and Walled village are not "different in any meaningful way"? Likewise, Village and Sacrifice let you play different cards. Throne Room let's you play the same one. Are Cultist and TR essentially the same, because both just let you play copies of a card?

I don't think you get my point. The point is that Bridge is on the kingdom. Does the card allow you to play 8 Bridges on a single turn? If yes, it's worth grouping together with all the other cards for which the answer is yes.

Also TR certainly lets you play different cards.

Oh, okay. I thought you were talking in general.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #165 on: January 09, 2017, 08:36:07 am »
+3

I usually call villages villages and stuff like Throne Room and so on pseudo-villages.

I really hope that doesn't result in you thinking that they are different in any meaningful way.

You're being willfully obtuse again. Yes they are both villages, but it doesn't exactly take a master's degree to determine that a board with Throne as the only splitter plays much differently, and is much harder to get established, than one with the card Village as the splitter.

In general, pseudo Villages take more work / commitment to function properly as Villages. Golem requires the presence of nonterminals to chain more than 2 Actions together. Throne Room either requires nonterminals or requires a hand of at least 2 Thrones and a draw card to do the same; the latter in particular is much more difficult to establish than traditional engines. Royal Carriage flat out doesn't work as a splitter without nonterminals to play again.

Granted some pseudo Villages, like Herald, synergize with themselves well and aren't so limited, but in general, the presence of only a pseudo Village means the engine takes at least some greater amount of effort to make work.

That's not to say there isn't merit to sometimes discussing the union of Villages and Psuedo Villages as one set, but they aren't the same and shouldn't always be treated as interchangeable in function.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 08:38:01 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #166 on: January 09, 2017, 09:03:14 am »
+2

But the categorization into "villages" and "pseudo-villages" is arbitrary. An engine with Throne Room as the only splitter might easily require less effort to put together than an engine with Nobles as the only splitter. Hell, it might even require less effort to put together than an engine with Village as the only splitter when the conditions are really suitable for TR based engines. The exact way in which TR does the splitting is not a reason to have a separate group, it's just something you have to take into account for each individual card, just like you have to take into account that Nobles is super expensive, Shanty Town is awkward, Necropolis is limited to 1 copy in your deck, Madman is one-shot as well as difficult to acquire, Dame Molly might disappear from your deck every time you play it, etc.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #167 on: January 09, 2017, 10:20:07 am »
0

But the categorization into "villages" and "pseudo-villages" is arbitrary.

No, it's not.  There's clearly a distinction between a card that gives "+X Actions" and a card that lets you play the same card multiple times.  They may fill a similar role sometimes, but they operate differently.  Throne Room only "splits" if you either hit another Throne Room or a non-terminal.  A village always "splits".
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #168 on: January 09, 2017, 10:31:15 am »
0

But the categorization into "villages" and "pseudo-villages" is arbitrary.

No, it's not.  There's clearly a distinction between a card that gives "+X Actions" and a card that lets you play the same card multiple times.  They may fill a similar role sometimes, but they operate differently.  Throne Room only "splits" if you either hit another Throne Room or a non-terminal.  A village always "splits".

They fill the exact same role every time and that's what matters.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #169 on: January 09, 2017, 11:44:58 am »
0

I don't agree that Throne Room being a village/splitter is any more conditional than Necropolis. Both are similarly useless if they do not pair up with another Action card.

Throne Room operates differently than your typical village through. It can be seen as equivalent to "+2 Actions, choose a card, autoplay the chosen card twice (each play costs an action)". Less flexible, but let's you play more Action card effects than you have in your deck. At the end of the day, you can use Throne Rooms to play arbitrarily many terminals, just like any card giving +2 Actions explicitly.

It's perhaps fair to call Throne Room, Herald, Royal Carriage etc. "Pseudo villages" just because they do not behave like vanilla cards that provide +2 Actions. Consider Tactician, the card I think is most deserving of the classification as a "pseudo-village". It requires a crazy chain to get arbitrarily many next-turn effects to activate.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #170 on: January 09, 2017, 03:08:19 pm »
0

They fill the exact same role every time and that's what matters.
No. Throne Room yields (implicit) Actions: 4 when it hits a village, 2 when it hits a non-terminal and one when it hits a terminal. In the latter case it is clearly not even mildly similar to a village or a "splitter".
For a self-proclaimed top player you are awefully ignorant of the very basics of the game you claim to excel in.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #171 on: January 09, 2017, 03:14:55 pm »
0

They fill the exact same role every time and that's what matters.
No. Throne Room yields (implicit) Actions: 4 when it hits a village, 2 when it hits a non-terminal and one when it hits a terminal. In the latter case it is clearly not even mildly similar to a village or a "splitter".
For a self-proclaimed top player you are awefully ignorant of the very basics of the game you claim to excel in.

What happens when Throne Room hits another Throne Room?

You could do TR TR Smithy TR Smithy TR Smithy... on repeat eventually playing one terminal per Throne Room you have. It requires 3/5 of your starting hand to be perfect though.

This aside, back to Awaclus's point - the distinction isn't arbitrary. Villages give extra actions with the play of a single card. Throne, RC, Golem, even Herald do not. This distinction is worth discussing sometimes, even if sometimes it is not important. I don't understand why several people have to spell all of these points out for you.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 03:16:58 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #172 on: January 09, 2017, 03:29:49 pm »
0

They fill the exact same role every time and that's what matters.
No. Throne Room yields (implicit) Actions: 4 when it hits a village, 2 when it hits a non-terminal and one when it hits a terminal. In the latter case it is clearly not even mildly similar to a village or a "splitter".
For a self-proclaimed top player you are awefully ignorant of the very basics of the game you claim to excel in.

What happens when Throne Room hits another Throne Room?

You could do TR TR Smithy TR Smithy TR Smithy... on repeat eventually playing one terminal per Throne Room you have. It requires 3/5 of your starting hand to be perfect though.

This aside, back to Awaclus's point - the distinction isn't arbitrary. Villages give extra actions with the play of a single card. Throne, RC, Golem, even Herald do not. This distinction is worth discussing sometimes, even if sometimes it is not important. I don't understand why several people have to spell all of these points out for you.
TR TR Smithy isn't mysterious, it works precisely after the 1/2/4 scheme:
TR hits a terminal, TR, and yields an implicit action. The throned TR hits Smithy and yields another implicit Action. If the thrones TR then hits another terminal it yields another implicit Action and after that has been played twice you are down to zero Actions. If it hits a non-terminal instead you end up with two Actions, and if it hits a village instead you end up with 4 Actions.

In this instance TR works better than a village in combination with Smithy would but it doesn't technically ever yields 2 Actions (if we focus only on thrones terminals)
As you pointed out, this is why it makes little sense to argue, as Awaclus does, that villages and pseudo-villages, are identical.

It is like he is in some Theory of Everything mode of thinking. Nobody here would deny that villages and pseudo-villages are good to get engines running or to make them run even better ... but nonetheless the cards function very differently. I don't necessarily want a Golem when I want a village and vice versa.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #173 on: January 09, 2017, 03:38:54 pm »
+1

For a self-proclaimed top player you are awefully ignorant of the very basics of the game you claim to excel in.

If you want to put my knowledge of the very basics of Dominion to test, we should play a Throne Room cage match.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #174 on: January 09, 2017, 03:46:56 pm »
0

They fill the exact same role every time and that's what matters.
No. Throne Room yields (implicit) Actions: 4 when it hits a village, 2 when it hits a non-terminal and one when it hits a terminal. In the latter case it is clearly not even mildly similar to a village or a "splitter".
For a self-proclaimed top player you are awefully ignorant of the very basics of the game you claim to excel in.

What happens when Throne Room hits another Throne Room?

You could do TR TR Smithy TR Smithy TR Smithy... on repeat eventually playing one terminal per Throne Room you have. It requires 3/5 of your starting hand to be perfect though.

This aside, back to Awaclus's point - the distinction isn't arbitrary. Villages give extra actions with the play of a single card. Throne, RC, Golem, even Herald do not. This distinction is worth discussing sometimes, even if sometimes it is not important. I don't understand why several people have to spell all of these points out for you.
TR TR Smithy isn't mysterious, it works precisely after the 1/2/4 scheme:
TR hits a terminal, TR, and yields an implicit action. The throned TR hits Smithy and yields another implicit Action. If the thrones TR then hits another terminal it yields another implicit Action and after that has been played twice you are down to zero Actions. If it hits a non-terminal instead you end up with two Actions, and if it hits a village instead you end up with 4 Actions.

In this instance TR works better than a village in combination with Smithy would but it doesn't technically ever yields 2 Actions (if we focus only on thrones terminals)
As you pointed out, this is why it makes little sense to argue, as Awaclus does, that villages and pseudo-villages, are identical.

It is like he is in some Theory of Everything mode of thinking. Nobody here would deny that villages and pseudo-villages are good to get engines running or to make them run even better ... but nonetheless the cards function very differently. I don't necessarily want a Golem when I want a village and vice versa.

This highlights how Village and Throne Room operate differently. However, the goal of a splitter is to help you play your terminals, not increase the Action counter by 2 or more. Functionally, both Village and Throne Room help accomplish the goal of letting you play all your terminals. Succeeding in that, it doesn't matter if you ever increase the Action counter.

I would say Awaclus is understating the difficulty of pulling off somethinf like a Throne Room chain with no card giving + Action, as it requires two Throne Rooms and a draw card to pull off. The difficulty in pulling off the task of playing lots of terminals is the main thing distinguishing vanilla +2 Actions from stuff like Herald, Vassal, Throne Room, etc.

I mean, yeah you'd climb the leaderboard if you could successfully use every unconventional means of playing additional terminals on almost any given board, but it's really not easy to do that, and surely there are board where it matters if the splitter is Village or Throne Room when it comes to the viability of the engine. Which one is better depends on the rest of the board I guess.
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