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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards  (Read 37971 times)

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LaLight

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2016, 07:20:34 am »
+1

It's nice that Walled Village is now at least somewhat closer to the other $4 splitters. It's a shame that it isn't higher than Farming Village.

Just trying to understand: Why do you feel that Walled Village is better than Farming Village?  Any engine would much rather have Farming Village than Walled Village, wouldn't it?  Unless I am totally missing something, Walled Village becomes nothing more than a $4 Village in an engine, but Farming Village helps you get through the junk and get to your actions to feed your engine.

Generally, Farming Village and Walled Village are both just vanilla Villages for $4. However, in the rare case where the ability actually does something, Farming Village just skips over one green card that probably wouldn't have made any difference anyway, whereas Walled Village might save you from an entire shuffle's worth of dead turns.
Farming Village skips over n green cards, where n is the number of green cards on top of your deck. This may well be one, but it may well be more than one. (Consider the not-entirely-uncommon case where your opponent is building a Rabble engine.)

Oh right, let's also talk about Scout that can draw even 4 (triple lab!) cards. Farming Village is not useful without deck inspection (scout) at all. It's literally Village for 4. Walled village is much much better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2016, 07:23:48 am »
0

It's nice that Walled Village is now at least somewhat closer to the other $4 splitters. It's a shame that it isn't higher than Farming Village.

Just trying to understand: Why do you feel that Walled Village is better than Farming Village?  Any engine would much rather have Farming Village than Walled Village, wouldn't it?  Unless I am totally missing something, Walled Village becomes nothing more than a $4 Village in an engine, but Farming Village helps you get through the junk and get to your actions to feed your engine.

Generally, Farming Village and Walled Village are both just vanilla Villages for $4. However, in the rare case where the ability actually does something, Farming Village just skips over one green card that probably wouldn't have made any difference anyway, whereas Walled Village might save you from an entire shuffle's worth of dead turns.
Farming Village skips over n green cards, where n is the number of green cards on top of your deck. This may well be one, but it may well be more than one. (Consider the not-entirely-uncommon case where your opponent is building a Rabble engine.)
But by far the most likely scenario is that it is 0.
Granted. Both these villages ultimately have the same dynamic: they're villages, so their utility increases as the proportion of actions in the deck approaches one, but as the proportion of actions in the deck approaches one, they become ever more indistinguishable from Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2016, 07:37:18 pm »
0

It's nice that Walled Village is now at least somewhat closer to the other $4 splitters. It's a shame that it isn't higher than Farming Village.

Just trying to understand: Why do you feel that Walled Village is better than Farming Village?  Any engine would much rather have Farming Village than Walled Village, wouldn't it?  Unless I am totally missing something, Walled Village becomes nothing more than a $4 Village in an engine, but Farming Village helps you get through the junk and get to your actions to feed your engine.

Generally, Farming Village and Walled Village are both just vanilla Villages for $4. However, in the rare case where the ability actually does something, Farming Village just skips over one green card that probably wouldn't have made any difference anyway, whereas Walled Village might save you from an entire shuffle's worth of dead turns.
Farming Village skips over n green cards, where n is the number of green cards on top of your deck. This may well be one, but it may well be more than one. (Consider the not-entirely-uncommon case where your opponent is building a Rabble engine.)
But by far the most likely scenario is that it is 0.

I agree that there are better villages than either of these, but I still don't get it. If I play either Walled Village or Farming Village, then if the card I draw is an action or treasure, they both will allow me to put it in my hand. But if I draw a victory card or curse, other than minimal cycling, I have gained nothing really from WV, while with FV I get to discard it and draw again until I get that action or treasure.  The ability that WV gives to top deck it is great earlier in the game, but the most likely scenario for it being activated late in the game is just as much 0 as FV not skipping green if you are running any kind of decent engine.

I enjoy learning from all of you, but I am having trouble seeing this one. I have looked back at some earlier posts comparing villages. Everything I find always ranks FV higher than WV. In fact, WV is usually considered a low tier village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2016, 07:58:53 pm »
+1

Well, Dominion is a game where something being good "earlier in the game" helps snowball faster. Also, in games where reshuffles don't happen every turn, Walled Village is probably better at lining up with terminal actions than Farming Village.

That said, I ranked Walled Village directly below Farming Village in my full card list ranking. I think they are not distinct from Village for $4 often enough to have a ranking gap between the two.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2016, 09:09:25 pm »
0

I agree that there are better villages than either of these, but I still don't get it. If I play either Walled Village or Farming Village, then if the card I draw is an action or treasure, they both will allow me to put it in my hand. But if I draw a victory card or curse, other than minimal cycling, I have gained nothing really from WV, while with FV I get to discard it and draw again until I get that action or treasure.  The ability that WV gives to top deck it is great earlier in the game, but the most likely scenario for it being activated late in the game is just as much 0 as FV not skipping green if you are running any kind of decent engine.

I enjoy learning from all of you, but I am having trouble seeing this one. I have looked back at some earlier posts comparing villages. Everything I find always ranks FV higher than WV. In fact, WV is usually considered a low tier village.

The thing is, it is super rare for either of the abilities to do anything. When Farming Village does something, it still doesn't do anything very impressive. When Walled Village does something, it has a game-deciding impact fairly often. I remember tons of games where I had a decent engine going, but shuffle luck had it so that I drew a hand with some splitters and no terminal draw, followed by a hand of terminal draw but not enough splitters, resulting in two (sometimes more) dud turns. I also remember some games where those splitters were Walled Villages and instead of the hand with terminal draw but no splitters, I had a hand that was perfectly capable of kicking off the engine, resulting in only one dud turn, which sometimes was still something that I could recover from. Discarding one green card from the top of your deck probably isn't the equivalent of taking an extra turn very often.

You shouldn't pay too much attention to earlier posts or rankings. Earlier posts are often mistaken about things because they were made at a time when people didn't understand all the things super well yet (nowadays we still don't understand all the things but at least what we post is usually not outdated), and rankings are often mistaken about things because people who aren't that amazing at playing the game still get to influence the rankings.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2017, 01:30:23 pm »
+1

Looking ahead to future rankings (because I'm bored), I've realized that ranks ~11-35 of $4 cards are really hard to sort.  There are a bunch of good cards that are very different from one another.  In this group, I have cards like: Quarry, Conspirator, Envoy, Militia, Marauder, Sacrifice, Bishop, Procession, Mission, Plaza, and Caravan (along with some other cards that share some obvious similarities to these cards).  I could probably be convinced that these cards could be ranked in any arbitrary order.  I don't have anything profound to say, just: keep this in mind when the next few sets of ratings are revealed.  There is bound to be a lot of noise from people like me who have a hard time evaluating which of these cards are more valuable.

That said, there are some cards that I'm more confident about.  Like, the $4 Villages.

IMO: Wandering Minstrel > Villa ~= Port ~= Worker's Village > Fortress ~= Plaza > Mining Village ~= Farming Village ~= Walled Village
And of the other action splitters, Throne Room and Herald are probably in between Wandering Minstrel and Port.  Procession is... tricky to rank.  But probably somewhere between Port and Mining Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2017, 02:45:16 am »
0

I agree that there are better villages than either of these, but I still don't get it. If I play either Walled Village or Farming Village, then if the card I draw is an action or treasure, they both will allow me to put it in my hand. But if I draw a victory card or curse, other than minimal cycling, I have gained nothing really from WV, while with FV I get to discard it and draw again until I get that action or treasure.  The ability that WV gives to top deck it is great earlier in the game, but the most likely scenario for it being activated late in the game is just as much 0 as FV not skipping green if you are running any kind of decent engine.

I enjoy learning from all of you, but I am having trouble seeing this one. I have looked back at some earlier posts comparing villages. Everything I find always ranks FV higher than WV. In fact, WV is usually considered a low tier village.

The thing is, it is super rare for either of the abilities to do anything. When Farming Village does something, it still doesn't do anything very impressive. When Walled Village does something, it has a game-deciding impact fairly often. I remember tons of games where I had a decent engine going, but shuffle luck had it so that I drew a hand with some splitters and no terminal draw, followed by a hand of terminal draw but not enough splitters, resulting in two (sometimes more) dud turns. I also remember some games where those splitters were Walled Villages and instead of the hand with terminal draw but no splitters, I had a hand that was perfectly capable of kicking off the engine, resulting in only one dud turn, which sometimes was still something that I could recover from. Discarding one green card from the top of your deck probably isn't the equivalent of taking an extra turn very often.
You are totally right that Walled Village is great in terms of reducing risk. But as others have pointed out, it is just a village once you have an engine running.
Farming Village is decent in the opening, when you have a chance of skipping over some green, good against Rabble, Haunted Woods, Fortune Teller and Sea Hag and in general good in the presence of junkers or alt-VP.

They are probably roughly similar in strength. Not hyperimpressive 4$ villages but most of the times it doesn't really matter that much. If you need a village you pay 4$ for it anyway (or gain it via a gainer).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2017, 03:38:49 am »
0

I'm surprised Cutpurse is so low.  Sure, it's useless late game, but it's quite devastating in the early game.

Possibly because, again, people ranking cards here are people who play 2p only.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2017, 05:41:08 am »
0

You are totally right that Walled Village is great in terms of reducing risk. But as others have pointed out, it is just a village once you have an engine running.
Farming Village is decent in the opening, when you have a chance of skipping over some green, good against Rabble, Haunted Woods, Fortune Teller and Sea Hag and in general good in the presence of junkers or alt-VP.

It's not just a Village once you have an engine running, it's a Village which is doing all that risk-reducing. Farming Village is just a Village which is not even doing that risk-reducing when you have an engine going. Walled Village is also much better than Farming Village in the opening because FV is still super unlikely to skip over anything, but Walled Village is guaranteed to get topdecked every turn until you need it, which can allow you to buy more terminals early than you would with FV, which is great for tempo.

The more junk or alt-VP you have in your deck, the better WV becomes in comparison to FV for the same reason. You need a ridiculously bloated deck for FV's ability to be reasonably likely to do anything, and in that case, it's starting to get pretty unlikely that FV's +2 Actions is going to do anything, so it's probably better to skip buying splitters altogether and buy some more Treasure cards instead of some of the terminals that you would have needed the splitters for. But if you have WV, you can buy a couple of those and you're almost guaranteed to have them when you need them.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2017, 06:14:19 am »
+1

You are totally right that Walled Village is great in terms of reducing risk. But as others have pointed out, it is just a village once you have an engine running.
Farming Village is decent in the opening, when you have a chance of skipping over some green, good against Rabble, Haunted Woods, Fortune Teller and Sea Hag and in general good in the presence of junkers or alt-VP.

It's not just a Village once you have an engine running, it's a Village which is doing all that risk-reducing. Farming Village is just a Village which is not even doing that risk-reducing when you have an engine going. Walled Village is also much better than Farming Village in the opening because FV is still super unlikely to skip over anything, but Walled Village is guaranteed to get topdecked every turn until you need it, which can allow you to buy more terminals early than you would with FV, which is great for tempo.

The more junk or alt-VP you have in your deck, the better WV becomes in comparison to FV for the same reason. You need a ridiculously bloated deck for FV's ability to be reasonably likely to do anything, and in that case, it's starting to get pretty unlikely that FV's +2 Actions is going to do anything, so it's probably better to skip buying splitters altogether and buy some more Treasure cards instead of some of the terminals that you would have needed the splitters for. But if you have WV, you can buy a couple of those and you're almost guaranteed to have them when you need them.
I disagree with that. Once you have an engine running you cannot topdeck Walled Village anymore so it degenerates into an ordinary Village. Its ability only matters while you still build your engine. That is important but it is hardly as superstrong as you claim.

Farming Village does indeed rarely skip over junk but contrary to your claims it is not virtually never. After the opening you have 12 cards and 3 of them are junk so Farming Village has a chance of 25% to go over an Estate and thus be similar to Lost City. Of course the junk to deck ratio will decline from 1/4 after the second cycle, even in a Kingdom with cursers and without trashers. But to pretend that the ratio is virtually zero is wrong.

Both villages are weak 4$ villages of similar strength with a small bonus.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2017, 12:54:24 pm »
+1

Opening Farming Village has a decent chance of being a significant upgrade over opening Walled Village, but both of those are terrible cards to open.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2017, 01:20:58 pm »
+1

I disagree with that. Once you have an engine running you cannot topdeck Walled Village anymore so it degenerates into an ordinary Village. Its ability only matters while you still build your engine. That is important but it is hardly as superstrong as you claim.

Its ability also matters when you have a dud turn without terminal draw while your engine is already running, which is when it basically gives you 1 or 2 extra turns, which is definitely as superstrong as I claim.

Farming Village does indeed rarely skip over junk but contrary to your claims it is not virtually never. After the opening you have 12 cards and 3 of them are junk so Farming Village has a chance of 25% to go over an Estate and thus be similar to Lost City. Of course the junk to deck ratio will decline from 1/4 after the second cycle, even in a Kingdom with cursers and without trashers. But to pretend that the ratio is virtually zero is wrong.

25% of skipping over a card is not as good as 100% of connecting with two other Actions.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2017, 01:27:27 pm »
+2

is definitely as superstrong as I claim.
Not really, you tremendously exaggerate. The card is just a weak 4$ village with a bonus that sometimes does a little something which is of roughly equivalent strength as the bonus of Farming Village.
All other 4$ villages are better than those two.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2017, 02:05:29 pm »
0

is definitely as superstrong as I claim.
Not really, you tremendously exaggerate. The card is just a weak 4$ village with a bonus that sometimes does a little something which is of roughly equivalent strength as the bonus of Farming Village.
All other 4$ villages are better than those two.

By what metric is taking an extra turn of roughly equivalent strength as skipping over a green card?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2017, 02:12:46 pm »
0

Connecting with 2 other actions is only good if both of those actions are terminals. Even in kingdoms where every other card is a terminal, Walled Village can inactivate itself.

You could play an enhanced version of Big Money where you buy more terminals than usual and a single walled Village, but that's the only unique situation enabled by it.

Hoping to see statistics come from the new Dominion online that reveal how often Walled Village is useful (eg compared to other villages, how often do terminals go unplayed, or how often are both actions used).

 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2017, 02:18:42 pm »
0

is definitely as superstrong as I claim.
Not really, you tremendously exaggerate. The card is just a weak 4$ village with a bonus that sometimes does a little something which is of roughly equivalent strength as the bonus of Farming Village.
All other 4$ villages are better than those two.

By what metric is taking an extra turn of roughly equivalent strength as skipping over a green card?

Imagine a hand with one $4 village and four stop cards.  If the next cards in the deck are Estate followed by Smithy, Farming Village has a better outcome than Walled Village; because you save the current turn, as opposed to the next turn.

Yes, this is contrived.  No, Farming Village isn't loads better than Walled Village.  Please, let's leave this dead horse in relative peace.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2017, 02:41:14 pm »
0

Imagine a hand with one $4 village and four stop cards.  If the next cards in the deck are Estate followed by Smithy, Farming Village has a better outcome than Walled Village; because you save the current turn, as opposed to the next turn.

And how likely is that scenario? Because the scenario where Walled Village saves the next turn is common enough that it actually happens (not very often, but it happens anyway).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2017, 09:48:28 am »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2017, 10:06:08 am »
+2

Awaclus pedantry aside, we can all agree Mining Village should be a fair amount above Farming Village, right? Mining Village does stuff most games.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2017, 10:06:44 am »
0

Awaclus pedantry aside, we can all agree Mining Village should be a fair amount above Farming Village, right? Mining Village does stuff most games.

Mining village is much better than Farming one obviously.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #95 on: January 04, 2017, 10:19:15 am »
+1

I'm really salty about how low salt is here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #96 on: January 04, 2017, 10:22:41 am »
0

Regardless of how you go about it, your hard cap from Rats / Ritual is 40 VP, and the kind of cards that enable the golden deck (Chapel / Steward / etc) also enable much bigger engines. I could see it as part of an engine payload though? Definitely niche and not dominant.

There are 20 Rats in the supply, so you can net up to 60 VP. The one exception is if you are playing with just two players, in which case there will only be 10 curses.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #97 on: January 04, 2017, 10:23:34 am »
0

Regardless of how you go about it, your hard cap from Rats / Ritual is 40 VP, and the kind of cards that enable the golden deck (Chapel / Steward / etc) also enable much bigger engines. I could see it as part of an engine payload though? Definitely niche and not dominant.

There are 20 Rats in the supply, so you can net up to 60 VP. The one exception is if you are playing with just two players, in which case there will only be 10 curses.

Generally 2 player Dominion is presumed here. I was also assuming you didn't keep the Curses.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2017, 10:58:25 am »
0

I'm glad Bishop and Salvager are significantly lower this year. I think they're pretty accurately ranked now. Intuitively I'd think Salt the Earth should be higher but I don't have a lot of experience with it.

Also yes, Mining should be higher than Farming, but not by much. All the $4 splitters should be roughly at the same rank, really.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2017, 11:32:42 am »
0

All the $4 splitters should be roughly at the same rank, really.
Now this is something about $4 Villages I do agree with Awaclus on. The special abilities for $4 Villages tend to be:

Of diminishing utility in multiples (Worker's)
One-shots (Mining)
Not always capable of being meaningfully activated (Plaza, Fortress)
Of lower utility as the deck tends to an all-Action state (Wandering Minstrel, Walled, Farming)
... that sort of thing.
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'
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