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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards  (Read 12380 times)

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2016, 09:44:24 am »
0

Regardless of how you go about it, your hard cap from Rats / Ritual is 40 VP, and the kind of cards that enable the golden deck (Chapel / Steward / etc) also enable much bigger engines. I could see it as part of an engine payload though? Definitely niche and not dominant.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2016, 10:07:44 am »
+5

It's curious how everyone seems to assume that Ritual needs to be the centerpiece of a strategy in order to be any good. I think it is a lot more tactical, and useful to get rid of cards that have outlived their utility, or to get an edge in Duchy dancing. I think it's quite decent there.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2016, 12:03:02 pm »
0

It's curious how everyone seems to assume that Ritual needs to be the centerpiece of a strategy in order to be any good. I think it is a lot more tactical, and useful to get rid of cards that have outlived their utility, or to get an edge in Duchy dancing. I think it's quite decent there.

What kind of cards do you have in mind?  Getting rid of a trasher like Chapel is underwhelming for two reasons: 1) Those cards tend to be cheap, so you don't get much VP, and 2) How do you get rid of the Curse without your trasher?  Using Ritual to get rid of junkers after the Curses are gone doesn't work.  Perhaps Ritual would be nice to get rid of duplicate Junk Dealers; you can get 5 VP and provide an additional target for your remaining Junk Dealer.  As usual, Peddler and Border Village can be good with TFB.  Hunting Grounds is a great target for Ritual.  Anything else?  Perhaps I'm not being sufficiently creative thinking of Ritual synergies.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2016, 01:36:27 pm »
0

It's curious how everyone seems to assume that Ritual needs to be the centerpiece of a strategy in order to be any good. I think it is a lot more tactical, and useful to get rid of cards that have outlived their utility, or to get an edge in Duchy dancing. I think it's quite decent there.

What kind of cards do you have in mind?  Getting rid of a trasher like Chapel is underwhelming for two reasons: 1) Those cards tend to be cheap, so you don't get much VP, and 2) How do you get rid of the Curse without your trasher?  Using Ritual to get rid of junkers after the Curses are gone doesn't work.  Perhaps Ritual would be nice to get rid of duplicate Junk Dealers; you can get 5 VP and provide an additional target for your remaining Junk Dealer.  As usual, Peddler and Border Village can be good with TFB.  Hunting Grounds is a great target for Ritual.  Anything else?  Perhaps I'm not being sufficiently creative thinking of Ritual synergies.
Getting rid of witch instead of giving the last curse. Gold gainers... lurker on prince or stuff like that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2016, 03:28:27 pm »
+1

It's curious how everyone seems to assume that Ritual needs to be the centerpiece of a strategy in order to be any good. I think it is a lot more tactical, and useful to get rid of cards that have outlived their utility, or to get an edge in Duchy dancing. I think it's quite decent there.

What kind of cards do you have in mind?  Getting rid of a trasher like Chapel is underwhelming for two reasons: 1) Those cards tend to be cheap, so you don't get much VP, and 2) How do you get rid of the Curse without your trasher?  Using Ritual to get rid of junkers after the Curses are gone doesn't work.  Perhaps Ritual would be nice to get rid of duplicate Junk Dealers; you can get 5 VP and provide an additional target for your remaining Junk Dealer.  As usual, Peddler and Border Village can be good with TFB.  Hunting Grounds is a great target for Ritual.  Anything else?  Perhaps I'm not being sufficiently creative thinking of Ritual synergies.

Any card that costs some dollars can be a good target for Ritual if shit hits the fan.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2016, 05:42:39 pm »
0

I tried Ritual once with some peddles on the board. Didn't work out, unfortunately.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2016, 10:10:37 am »
+1

It's curious how everyone seems to assume that Ritual needs to be the centerpiece of a strategy in order to be any good. I think it is a lot more tactical, and useful to get rid of cards that have outlived their utility, or to get an edge in Duchy dancing. I think it's quite decent there.

I don't think discussing Ritual's potential golden deck utility is at all the same as assuming it is the only, or even the best, use case for the card. It's just where the discussion was going.

Really though its utility over Duchy is kinda marginal and edgecasey. Unless you also need the Curse for trasher fuel, it's fairly rare that the one extra point is going to be worth losing a $5 for.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2016, 01:15:35 pm »
0

It's curious how everyone seems to assume that Ritual needs to be the centerpiece of a strategy in order to be any good. I think it is a lot more tactical, and useful to get rid of cards that have outlived their utility, or to get an edge in Duchy dancing. I think it's quite decent there.

I don't think discussing Ritual's potential golden deck utility is at all the same as assuming it is the only, or even the best, use case for the card. It's just where the discussion was going.

Really though its utility over Duchy is kinda marginal and edgecasey. Unless you also need the Curse for trasher fuel, it's fairly rare that the one extra point is going to be worth losing a $5 for.

Though, trashing your Duchy with Ritual gives you an extra point at the cost of a buy, so there is that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2016, 03:03:18 pm »
+4

Though, trashing your Duchy with Ritual gives you an extra point at the cost of a buy, so there is that.

Not just a buy, but $4 and a buy. So it's like a more expensive Great Hall in that case. Same situation occurs when trashing a Province. If you can trash the Curse, then the net effect of Ritual + trashing the Curse is roughly similar to buying an Island and setting aside the Duchy/Province (+2 VP and thin your deck 1 card, in 2 steps). However, Island is better in terms of VP for setting aside Estates, as Ritual+trasher only gives +1 VP.

Trashing a Gold basically costs you $7 and a buy for 5 VP (plus the Gold is trashed). You need some reason to avoid buying Province for this to be worth it, unless you hit exactly $7 this way and don't care about losing the Gold. An engine with Gold gaining could use this to extend the VP supply, if there is no other better source of alt-VP. This is probably the most common good case for Ritual, but it's still not that strong.

If you have useless actions late in the game, Ritualing one of them (such as Moneylender) could be better and cheaper than buying a Duchy.

I rated it quite low, and as the worst Event in Empires, but maybe it does better when you're playing all random. Empires has so much alt-VP available that something on the power level of Great Hall or Island is just not meaningful most of the time. On average though, I still think this will be about as impactful as Great Hall and Island, except without gainers working on it and with the added requirement of having a card you want to trash in your hand. Mostly I'm surprised that it's been rated higher than Island, which is fairly similar but easier to gain and use.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2016, 09:45:10 pm »
0

Wait Ritual costs $4!? I thought it cost $0 when I made my last post.

I mean, I should have known better given that I ranked it with the $4's and we are currently discussing $4's.

So then yeah I am at a loss as to when it is supposed to be good. I'd say the most obvious use of getting extra VP on the last turn is perhaps the strongest use.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2016, 02:24:12 pm »
0

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2016, 02:33:43 pm »
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It's nice that Walled Village is now at least somewhat closer to the other $4 splitters. It's a shame that it isn't higher than Farming Village.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2016, 02:34:54 pm »
+1

I underrated Engineer a lot on my list. It's awesome. It's really so much better that you can have the card get out of the way once you're done with it. Getting an engineer can be worth it even just to gain 3 or 4 cards.

Also Mission's placement here is obscene! I have it at 10.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 02:51:15 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2016, 02:56:45 pm »
+6

Mission is the first card shaped thing that is disastrously rated. It deserves to be atleast 30 spots higher, I guess there wont be any worse one in any list this year.

The question is why? It does align with the +buy meme going around, but other than that I wouldn't know any reason why any person would rate as low as it is now.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2016, 04:18:43 pm »
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I rated Mission higher. I don't understand. Engineer is also underrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2016, 04:32:14 pm »
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Walled Village is way worse. Silk Road and Pilgrimage should be higher, I think. But then again I didn't rank, so I can't complain.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2016, 05:29:46 pm »
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Engineer is WAY better. I didn't rank Empires cards and now I'm sad about it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2016, 09:49:57 pm »
0

It's nice that Walled Village is now at least somewhat closer to the other $4 splitters. It's a shame that it isn't higher than Farming Village.

Just trying to understand: Why do you feel that Walled Village is better than Farming Village?  Any engine would much rather have Farming Village than Walled Village, wouldn't it?  Unless I am totally missing something, Walled Village becomes nothing more than a $4 Village in an engine, but Farming Village helps you get through the junk and get to your actions to feed your engine. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2016, 10:32:27 pm »
0

It's nice that Walled Village is now at least somewhat closer to the other $4 splitters. It's a shame that it isn't higher than Farming Village.

Just trying to understand: Why do you feel that Walled Village is better than Farming Village?  Any engine would much rather have Farming Village than Walled Village, wouldn't it?  Unless I am totally missing something, Walled Village becomes nothing more than a $4 Village in an engine, but Farming Village helps you get through the junk and get to your actions to feed your engine.

Awaclus's irrational hatred of Farming Village is itself sort of a meme, but I mean, Farming Village is only rarely significantly better than Village, and obviously it pales in comparison to others like Wandering Minstrel.

Walled Village is nice because it is better in sloggy games than Farming Village, since Walled Village sticks around until you need it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2016, 11:00:29 pm »
0

Awaclus's irrational hatred of Farming Village

I thought Seprix was the one who hated Farming Village.  He wrote a whole article about how pointless it was.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2016, 11:53:06 pm »
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I've only seen one thing in this list so far that's more than 4 or 5 ranks off where I had it in my list. I had Ritual about 10 ranks too high (not saying too high because it disagrees with this list but more because I've barely played with it and didn't think about how bad it was). I had Mission at #37.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2016, 12:46:27 am »
0

I'm surprised Cutpurse is so low.  Sure, it's useless late game, but it's quite devastating in the early game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2016, 05:46:38 am »
0

It's nice that Walled Village is now at least somewhat closer to the other $4 splitters. It's a shame that it isn't higher than Farming Village.

Just trying to understand: Why do you feel that Walled Village is better than Farming Village?  Any engine would much rather have Farming Village than Walled Village, wouldn't it?  Unless I am totally missing something, Walled Village becomes nothing more than a $4 Village in an engine, but Farming Village helps you get through the junk and get to your actions to feed your engine.

Generally, Farming Village and Walled Village are both just vanilla Villages for $4. However, in the rare case where the ability actually does something, Farming Village just skips over one green card that probably wouldn't have made any difference anyway, whereas Walled Village might save you from an entire shuffle's worth of dead turns.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2016, 07:16:57 am »
0

It's nice that Walled Village is now at least somewhat closer to the other $4 splitters. It's a shame that it isn't higher than Farming Village.

Just trying to understand: Why do you feel that Walled Village is better than Farming Village?  Any engine would much rather have Farming Village than Walled Village, wouldn't it?  Unless I am totally missing something, Walled Village becomes nothing more than a $4 Village in an engine, but Farming Village helps you get through the junk and get to your actions to feed your engine.

Generally, Farming Village and Walled Village are both just vanilla Villages for $4. However, in the rare case where the ability actually does something, Farming Village just skips over one green card that probably wouldn't have made any difference anyway, whereas Walled Village might save you from an entire shuffle's worth of dead turns.
Farming Village skips over n green cards, where n is the number of green cards on top of your deck. This may well be one, but it may well be more than one. (Consider the not-entirely-uncommon case where your opponent is building a Rabble engine.)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2016, 07:19:15 am »
+1

It's nice that Walled Village is now at least somewhat closer to the other $4 splitters. It's a shame that it isn't higher than Farming Village.

Just trying to understand: Why do you feel that Walled Village is better than Farming Village?  Any engine would much rather have Farming Village than Walled Village, wouldn't it?  Unless I am totally missing something, Walled Village becomes nothing more than a $4 Village in an engine, but Farming Village helps you get through the junk and get to your actions to feed your engine.

Generally, Farming Village and Walled Village are both just vanilla Villages for $4. However, in the rare case where the ability actually does something, Farming Village just skips over one green card that probably wouldn't have made any difference anyway, whereas Walled Village might save you from an entire shuffle's worth of dead turns.
Farming Village skips over n green cards, where n is the number of green cards on top of your deck. This may well be one, but it may well be more than one. (Consider the not-entirely-uncommon case where your opponent is building a Rabble engine.)
But by far the most likely scenario is that it is 0.
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