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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards  (Read 12381 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2016, 01:38:49 pm »
0

I'm surprised that Ritual wasn't in the bottom ten. I almost never find a use for it.

Ritual is quite nice - it can help you catch up when you're behind.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2016, 07:01:58 pm »
+1

Rocks is bad. It never comes up, and for it to come up, you would need to buy more Catapults than you need, and even if it does come up, I mean, come on.

I'm surprised that Ritual wasn't in the bottom ten. I almost never find a use for it.

Remember that 4 catapult game? It rocked!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2016, 10:32:51 pm »
+4

Rocks is probably the hardest card to accurately rank.  First, we need to understand how valuable Catapult is.  Then we need to understand how likely the Catapult pile is to be depleted.  This will help us determine how often Rocks might even be gained when it appears in the kingdom.  Then, in those kingdoms, we need to evaluate how useful Rocks are.

Here's my initial attempt to do this:

Proposition 1: Catapult is likely to be bought as the only Curse trasher in ~33% of kingdoms*.
Proposition 2: In most of the kingdoms specified in Proposition 1, providing Curses via Catapult will be so valuable that it will be worth it to buy extra Catapults to get to Rocks**.
Proposition 3: In most of the kingdoms not specified in Proposition 1, no more than four Catapults will be purchased, and Rocks will not be available***.
Proposition 4: In kingdoms where Rocks can be gained (mostly those specified in Proposition 1), they will be quite valuable - offering immediate economy and three sources to provide a brutal double attack.  In these kingdoms, Rocks will be about as valuable as Ill Gotten Gains in kingdoms with weak curse trashing (Rocks are a slower, but more impactful attack with slightly better economy).  In the presence of gainers like Workshop, they will be even better.
Conclusion: Rocks will not be obtained in ~2/3 of kingdoms it is present in.  Rocks will be quite valuable (~7/10 $4 card?) in ~1/3 of the kingdoms it is present in.  I think Rocks compares favorably to Rats and Feodum, which are also situational cards that are quite valuable in a minority of kingdoms.

* I calculated this value by assuming that Catapult will be purchased as the only Curse trasher if it is not in the same kingdom as: Chapel, Masquerade, Steward, Upgrade, Replace, Ambassador, Lookout, Salvager, Apprentice, Expand, Remake, Jack of all Trades, Trading Post, Forager, Hermit, Urchin, Rats, Junk Dealer, Altar, Butcher, Ratcatcher, Raze, Amulet, Plan, Trade, Temple, Donate.  This is a sloppy assumption, but I think there is sloppiness on both sides (sometimes, Catapult won't be worth pursuing in the absence of these trashers; sometimes, it will be worth pursuing as the only Curse trasher in kingdoms with these trashers).

** For an argument as to why this is, see here.  However, I haven't played many Catapult mirrors.  It is possible that there is a stable equilibrium in a two-player game where each player has two Catapults, and neither player wants to purchase the last Catapult and expose Rocks to their opponent.  Theoretically, additional gains or buys could break this stalemate, but it will be challenging for a player to gain a Catapult and a Rocks in a single turn while being attacked by their opponent's Catapults.  If this equilibrium is common, I will have overestimated the value of Rocks.  <philosophizing>Or, does this equilibrium imply that Rocks are valuable despite the reality that they will rarely be purchased in a game with two skilled players.  I don't believe there is a similar situation in Dominion.</philosophizing>

*** The biggest exception to this proposition, I believe, is the presence of a gainer like Ironworks.  If a player can gain extra Catapults cheaply (trashing the duplicates), then it might be worth it to try to reach Rocks.  The gainer will also make Rocks more valuable - in addition to easier to obtain.

Edit: Because English is hard.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 10:39:17 pm by aku_chi »
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2016, 10:33:34 pm »
0

I think you mean "proposition"
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2016, 10:26:37 am »
+2

Philosophical question: If Rocks is powerful when it shows up, but only shows up in a small fraction of games, is it good?

Let's compare to Fortune, a card that I suspect will be ranked fairly highly.  Fortune will also only appear in a fraction of games, but it seems intuitive that this is reflective of the power of Gladiator, rather than the power of Fortune.

The difference between Fortune and Catapult is that Fortune is good regardless of whether you were the one who got a Gladiator.  Rocks are usually only good when you have Catapults.  You might gain extra Catapults not because extra Catapults are especially good, but because they give you access to Rocks, which are better for you than for your opponent.

When we rank cards we always take their costs into consideration.  Thus, we rank Fortune knowing that it costs $8+8D, and Rocks knowing that it costs $4.  But unlike Fortune, Rocks also seems to have an extra cost: the opportunity cost of buying perhaps more Catapults than you really wanted.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2016, 10:41:58 am »
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non philosophical answer: it's just beyond dumb to rank them seperately and it's mind boggling how anyone thought differently
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2016, 01:54:53 pm »
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Let's compare to Fortune, a card that I suspect will be ranked fairly highly.  Fortune will also only appear in a fraction of games, but it seems intuitive that this is reflective of the power of Gladiator, rather than the power of Fortune.

For the literal definition of a fraction, yes. But if you mean, less than most games with Gladiator in it, that's wrong. Gladiator is passably good and Fortune is so overwhelmingly powerful that it'll be sought out in I'd say at least 75% of games. You only really need to play it once (MAYBE twice) for it to have been worth it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2016, 03:17:49 pm »
+1

Feodum should have been seen by now.

I respectfully disagree.  Feodum can be a game-winning card if it appears with a good silver-gainer or with trash-for benefit.

Are any of these cards in the bottom rank ever game-winners?  Counting House if combined with Travelling Fair, sure, but that's a very specific circumstance.  I guess Pirate Ship in 3-4 player, but who plays 3-4 player?

Lots of people play 3-4 player, they just don't come here to talk about it.

I think 3-4 player only barley makes Pirate Ship better. The only difference real difference it makes is that it's less likely to be a wasted card on a given turn. Even if Pirate Ship were guaranteed to give you a token every time you played it, it wouldn't be very good. It still just helps your opponent thin their Coppers while only eventually turning into decent terminal money. Whether 2 players or 4 players, I'd probably only go Pirate Ship when there's no other action-coin.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2016, 04:34:10 pm »
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I think this is the second time I've been surprised by the groundbreaking discovery that you don't actually get 3 tokens if your Pirate Ship hits all opponents in a 4-player game.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2016, 05:00:29 pm »
+5

You guys are missing another thing about Pirate Ship in 3+ player games. Pirate Ship is better in those games not just because it is less likely to be a wasted turn, by because you are being attacked my multiple Ships a turn. You lose your entire Treasure economy much faster as a result, and thus you need to quickly invest in a decently strong virtual Coin source. You know... like Pirate Ship itself.

Not that it becomes a fantastic card - but you can seriously run out of economy before you know it if you aren't careful.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2016, 10:05:05 am »
0

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2016, 12:06:48 pm »
+1

Why is Nomad Camp so high? It's almost as weak as Woodcutter and it has a lot tougher competetition. Below Rats is just completely unfair.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2016, 12:18:18 pm »
+1

Part 2 thoughts:

My vote didn't work out this way, but I think Rats is definitely better than Death Cart. I honestly can't recall when I've actually used Death Cart as payload excluding games with Fortress (or Rats lol). It's awkward to use, and it needs +Buy. I think when I get it, I'm usually aiming to pile Ruins.

Rats on the other hand, has a lower floor but a much higher ceiling, and the number of useful TFB cards that work with it has skyrocketed lately. Transmogrify, Sacrifice, Advance, Replace, Catapult... it's just a lot more common to find a Rats synergy than it used to be - and a lot harder to find trashing that's truly great for Coppers and Estates with the increased number of cards to pick from. It's skippable a lot of the time, but it has a much higher ceiling than Death Cart.

I don't really mind Nomad Camp escaping the bottom 10, just because the 10 cards below it are so bad and +Buy is usually the most scarce engine resource these days (at least it seems like it for me). But, shouldn't be above Rats.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2016, 12:58:49 pm »
0

Nomad camp is worse than all of these. Like worse than p-ship. If you don't get it for the opening, Nomad camp is literally the worst +buy for a engine(the most common deck that needs +buy) because it may cause a dud.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2016, 01:03:40 pm »
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I agree that Rats is better than Death Cart.

Nomad Camp isn't that great, but it does give a buy and sometimes that's what you really need.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2016, 01:06:07 pm »
+2

Still haven't seen Scout yet...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2016, 01:48:53 pm »
0

Nomad camp is worse than all of these. Like worse than p-ship. If you don't get it for the opening, Nomad camp is literally the worst +buy for a engine(the most common deck that needs +buy) because it may cause a dud.
Not really. On-gain topdecking can be be valuable during the middle- and endgame as well. In situations in which you are in dire need of an extra buy and are willing to pay a shitload for a Woodcutter anyway (because you generate many coins in all your turns and missed to go for Nomad Camp in the opening) you actually appreciate that this very Woodcutter is landing on top of your deck.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2016, 01:49:26 pm »
+2

Still haven't seen Scout yet...

I think you're in denial.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2016, 01:50:27 pm »
+1

Why is Nomad Camp so high? It's almost as weak as Woodcutter and it has a lot tougher competetition. Below Rats is just completely unfair.

You mean, it has a lot tougher competition for the lowest possible ranks. I think Nomad Camp is worse than Woodcutter, but the difference isn't big and there are fewer absolutely horrible $3 cards.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2016, 03:42:50 pm »
0

Still haven't seen Scout yet...

Have you tried looking? Like, with your eyes?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2016, 04:10:09 pm »
+1

Why is Nomad Camp so high? It's almost as weak as Woodcutter and it has a lot tougher competetition. Below Rats is just completely unfair.
Actually, there are a lot worse $4 cards than $3 cards.  Like, Chancellor is better than Navigator and everything beneath it (plus Coppersmith, IMO).  So, even though Nomad Camp is worse than Woodcutter, it's approximately in the right position; probably a few ranks too high.

Ritual is too high; we should have seen it by now.  It is very rarely better than green.  Consider trashing a Gold with Ritual.  That's $4 for 5VP.  If you had $5 without the Gold, you could have played the Gold for a Province.  And even with $4, you could keep the Gold and buy a Duchy.  You could use Ritual to trash a colliding terminal, but that's only going to provide a net 4VP in the usual case - barely more than a Duchy.  Sure, you could theoretically trash the Curse from Ritual, but it's a pretty weak golden deck payload.  Ritual is really weak and situational.  Island, for instance, seems pretty clearly better.  It would take a Gold gainer and a good trasher to make Ritual a better payload than Island + Province pairs.

Addendum: Ritual + Rats would be an amusing golden deck payload, though.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 04:36:56 pm by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2016, 10:35:55 pm »
0

Why is Nomad Camp so high? It's almost as weak as Woodcutter and it has a lot tougher competetition. Below Rats is just completely unfair.
Actually, there are a lot worse $4 cards than $3 cards.  Like, Chancellor is better than Navigator and everything beneath it (plus Coppersmith, IMO).  So, even though Nomad Camp is worse than Woodcutter, it's approximately in the right position; probably a few ranks too high.

Ritual is too high; we should have seen it by now.  It is very rarely better than green.  Consider trashing a Gold with Ritual.  That's $4 for 5VP.  If you had $5 without the Gold, you could have played the Gold for a Province.  And even with $4, you could keep the Gold and buy a Duchy.  You could use Ritual to trash a colliding terminal, but that's only going to provide a net 4VP in the usual case - barely more than a Duchy.  Sure, you could theoretically trash the Curse from Ritual, but it's a pretty weak golden deck payload.  Ritual is really weak and situational.  Island, for instance, seems pretty clearly better.  It would take a Gold gainer and a good trasher to make Ritual a better payload than Island + Province pairs.

Addendum: Ritual + Rats would be an amusing golden deck payload, though.

I'm pretty sure the golden deck is just Rats / Rats / Silver / Silver /  Junk Card (curse after the first cycle). You basically get 4 VP a turn for 10 turns. Not especially overwhelming.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2016, 10:50:21 pm »
0

Why is Nomad Camp so high? It's almost as weak as Woodcutter and it has a lot tougher competetition. Below Rats is just completely unfair.
Actually, there are a lot worse $4 cards than $3 cards.  Like, Chancellor is better than Navigator and everything beneath it (plus Coppersmith, IMO).  So, even though Nomad Camp is worse than Woodcutter, it's approximately in the right position; probably a few ranks too high.

Ritual is too high; we should have seen it by now.  It is very rarely better than green.  Consider trashing a Gold with Ritual.  That's $4 for 5VP.  If you had $5 without the Gold, you could have played the Gold for a Province.  And even with $4, you could keep the Gold and buy a Duchy.  You could use Ritual to trash a colliding terminal, but that's only going to provide a net 4VP in the usual case - barely more than a Duchy.  Sure, you could theoretically trash the Curse from Ritual, but it's a pretty weak golden deck payload.  Ritual is really weak and situational.  Island, for instance, seems pretty clearly better.  It would take a Gold gainer and a good trasher to make Ritual a better payload than Island + Province pairs.

Addendum: Ritual + Rats would be an amusing golden deck payload, though.

I'm pretty sure the golden deck is just Rats / Rats / Silver / Silver /  Junk Card (curse after the first cycle). You basically get 4 VP a turn for 10 turns. Not especially overwhelming.
40 vp isnt bad but it should lose to any fast bm or engine.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2016, 11:32:15 pm »
0

Why is Nomad Camp so high? It's almost as weak as Woodcutter and it has a lot tougher competetition. Below Rats is just completely unfair.
Actually, there are a lot worse $4 cards than $3 cards.  Like, Chancellor is better than Navigator and everything beneath it (plus Coppersmith, IMO).  So, even though Nomad Camp is worse than Woodcutter, it's approximately in the right position; probably a few ranks too high.

Ritual is too high; we should have seen it by now.  It is very rarely better than green.  Consider trashing a Gold with Ritual.  That's $4 for 5VP.  If you had $5 without the Gold, you could have played the Gold for a Province.  And even with $4, you could keep the Gold and buy a Duchy.  You could use Ritual to trash a colliding terminal, but that's only going to provide a net 4VP in the usual case - barely more than a Duchy.  Sure, you could theoretically trash the Curse from Ritual, but it's a pretty weak golden deck payload.  Ritual is really weak and situational.  Island, for instance, seems pretty clearly better.  It would take a Gold gainer and a good trasher to make Ritual a better payload than Island + Province pairs.

Addendum: Ritual + Rats would be an amusing golden deck payload, though.

I'm pretty sure the golden deck is just Rats / Rats / Silver / Silver /  Junk Card (curse after the first cycle). You basically get 4 VP a turn for 10 turns. Not especially overwhelming.
40 vp isnt bad but it should lose to any fast bm or engine.

I think almost any BM eventually beats this. It takes ~8-10 turns to set this up with e.g. Rats / Steward, and only by turn 20 do you have 40 VP.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2016, 11:50:18 pm »
0

With support, you could buy Ritual multiple times per turn.  For instance: { Rats x2, Curse x2, Peddler x6, Woodcutter } is a reliable golden deck for 8VP per turn (until the Curses run out).  But, it probably isn't competitive on most boards.

I played a few games against the AI with Ritual.  I discovered that Ritual can help get extra VP on the turn that you pile out with an engine.  Most engines have some redundant components that you can trash with Ritual on the final turn.  If they cost $5 or more, trashing them with Ritual is worth a little more than buying Duchies.  Pretty minor, but it's something.  I also discovered that Ritual is completely worthless in games with a strong Curser.
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