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Author Topic: What you think you've done / What you've actually done  (Read 37728 times)

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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2012, 04:15:03 am »
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Situation: Bought lots of Cartographers
What you think you've done: Able to sift through your bad cards, playing only good cards
What you've actually done: Grouped your bad cards together so you still have to play them

Cartographer is kind of trappy to me, since I see a lot of players overinvesting in it and forgetting to actually buy those good cards.

Oh, and it takes forever to resolve of course.

How do you see playing Cartographer as grouping bad cards together? Bad cards are discarded, so you definitely play them less often. I agree though, that cycling alone isn't enough (even filtered cycling like Cartographer) and those good cards do need to be bought.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 04:35:30 am by Dubdubdubdub »
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Davio

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2012, 04:34:21 am »
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I see that a lot of people get caught up too much with Cartographers and this makes them buy less money or other good cards.

And Cartographer can cause nasty reshuffles so those discarded bad cards get thrown right back into the mix.
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2012, 04:37:50 am »
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Right, you have to be careful with your reshuffles; that's a big leap in the use of any grand cycler.


ps. I didn't mean to say 'Wow, do you see Cartographer as a grouping bad cards together?', but '*How do you see...". Without the astonishment :)
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Robz888

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2012, 10:11:25 am »
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I see that a lot of people get caught up too much with Cartographers and this makes them buy less money or other good cards.

And Cartographer can cause nasty reshuffles so those discarded bad cards get thrown right back into the mix.

I think Cartographer is a very useful card, but you are absolutely right about people over-buying it, buying it instead of money, and buying it too early. You will see people make Cartographer their first purchase when they $5, when all they have in their deck is Coppers, Estates, a few Silvers, and a terminal Action. In that case, Cartographer is just the world's worst Warehouse.

Double Cartographer is a good alternative to trashing, or a nice supplement to trashing in a bloated deck or a deck under heavy attack from cursers. I've also found it semi-useful at matching together cards like Baron with Estate. And great with Tunnel, of course. But people buy it like its the first and most vital purchase in an accelerated engine chain, which is most likely wrong.
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Piemaster

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2012, 03:28:43 am »
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Situation: Open Silver / Village
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to get some early cards and actions
What you've actually done: Opened Silver / Nothing

I have to confess I've opened Silver/Village before.  Usually on boards where there are a lot of power terminal 5s (esp drawing) and not a lot of note in the 3 and 4 slot.  My reasoning is that I will ultimately need a few villages for my engine and so I may as well pick them up while I can.  Is this legitimate or is it terribad and I should always just open double silver instead?
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Geronimoo

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2012, 03:33:08 am »
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I have to confess I've opened Silver/Village before.  Usually on boards where there are a lot of power terminal 5s (esp drawing) and not a lot of note in the 3 and 4 slot.  My reasoning is that I will ultimately need a few villages for my engine and so I may as well pick them up while I can.  Is this legitimate or is it terribad and I should always just open double silver instead?
Opening Village makes baby Jesus cry... (unless it's a Worker's Village and there's a Peddler )
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2012, 03:57:22 am »
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Situation: Open Silver / Village
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to get some early cards and actions
What you've actually done: Opened Silver / Nothing

I have to confess I've opened Silver/Village before.  Usually on boards where there are a lot of power terminal 5s (esp drawing) and not a lot of note in the 3 and 4 slot.  My reasoning is that I will ultimately need a few villages for my engine and so I may as well pick them up while I can.  Is this legitimate or is it terribad and I should always just open double silver instead?
The thing is, you need some way to get those 5s, and the village doesn't help you get there. The only time a village opening really makes sense, imo, is if you're getting it with remodel/ironworks/workshop and going for mass terminal 4s (i.e. smithy/conspirator)
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blueblimp

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2012, 04:22:54 am »
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Situation: Open Silver / Village
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to get some early cards and actions
What you've actually done: Opened Silver / Nothing

I have to confess I've opened Silver/Village before.  Usually on boards where there are a lot of power terminal 5s (esp drawing) and not a lot of note in the 3 and 4 slot.  My reasoning is that I will ultimately need a few villages for my engine and so I may as well pick them up while I can.  Is this legitimate or is it terribad and I should always just open double silver instead?

To add a comment (although I'm not too high level), you actually won't need villages for your engine particularly soon. I find it's way more important to get the drawing components first so that you have enough buying power and deck movement. It's not too bad if you, e.g., buy a couple Torturers with no village and draw one dead, since your deck will be cycling faster on average than if one of those were a village.
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jotheonah

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2012, 01:01:16 pm »
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Silver/Fishing Village, though, is different. Since it IS money producing, and you'll really want it with your terminals later because it helps them twice as much.
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Loschmidt

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2012, 07:00:49 pm »
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Situation: Open Silver / Village
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to get some early cards and actions
What you've actually done: Opened Silver / Nothing

I have to confess I've opened Silver/Village before.  Usually on boards where there are a lot of power terminal 5s (esp drawing) and not a lot of note in the 3 and 4 slot.  My reasoning is that I will ultimately need a few villages for my engine and so I may as well pick them up while I can.  Is this legitimate or is it terribad and I should always just open double silver instead?

Unless you have at least 2 terminal actions there is literally no situation in which your village is useful.

I get what you mean though, it feels sillly spending $5 on a village later on if you could spend $3 on it now, but before you have 2 terminals it has absolutely no use, whereas a silver will help you now and forever.
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Davio

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2012, 07:46:02 am »
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I would go so far as to saying: even with 2 terminals, Villages are of marginal value. The chance that you'll draw them together isn't that high and you can still draw them together without a Village! So the Village doesn't add much.

I'm not buying Villages nearly as much as I used to. Earlier in my *ahum* career, I was so scared of terminal collision I always bought some Villages, but now I just go "darn" when my 2 terminals collide.

Of course there are a lot of Villages that have uses beyond giving an extra action and whether or not I'll buy them depends on those other properties. Worker's Village into Peddler is of course very nice and Fishing Village is just a really good card.
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petrie911

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #86 on: February 17, 2012, 07:58:05 am »
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On the subject of villages, I used to think of Mining Village as a more expensive village with some extra endgame utility.  Now I tend to see it as a one-shot Grand Bazaar.
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chwhite

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #87 on: February 17, 2012, 12:44:49 pm »
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On the subject of villages, I used to think of Mining Village as a more expensive village with some extra endgame utility.  Now I tend to see it as a one-shot Grand Bazaar.

That's funny, I used to think of Mining Village as a one-shot Grand Bazaar and now I consider it mostly an expensive village with extra endgame utility. :P
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blueblimp

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #88 on: February 17, 2012, 04:40:20 pm »
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I'm not buying Villages nearly as much as I used to. Earlier in my *ahum* career, I was so scared of terminal collision I always bought some Villages, but now I just go "darn" when my 2 terminals collide.

The same thing happened with me. I think I used to start buying villages when I only had one terminal, and now I'm delaying them more and more. I think the reason I used to do that is that terminal collisions feel so bad, but as you point out, buying villages isn't actually so helpful for preventing terminal collision, with the exception of fishing village (and maybe walled village?). It would be a different story if somehow a smithy->village play order were legal. =P
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AJD

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #89 on: February 17, 2012, 04:59:17 pm »
+1

It would be a different story if somehow a smithy->village play order were legal. =P

This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.
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blueblimp

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #90 on: February 17, 2012, 05:12:57 pm »
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Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

That is a really nice way to realize it! Very cool. I think the card would actually be very strong with certain drawers. For example, imagine playing an Embassy and drawing this card (pretty likely since there are 9 to choose from): nearly guaranteed to go on to draw your entire deck if your deck composition is good.
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jonts26

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #91 on: February 17, 2012, 05:17:00 pm »
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It would be a different story if somehow a smithy->village play order were legal. =P

This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

The way it's worded now, I don't think it costs an action to use if you have 0 left. So it's often more advantageous to play it after your terminal leaving you with 2 actions instead of the normal 1 from a village/terminal pair. Maybe reword it so you only get +1 action from the reaction part.
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Robz888

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #92 on: February 17, 2012, 05:18:25 pm »
+1

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

That is a really nice way to realize it! Very cool. I think the card would actually be very strong with certain drawers. For example, imagine playing an Embassy and drawing this card (pretty likely since there are 9 to choose from): nearly guaranteed to go on to draw your entire deck if your deck composition is good.

You should call it "Hidden Village."
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pst

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Hidden Village
« Reply #93 on: February 17, 2012, 05:54:16 pm »
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This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

There are other uses as well. Any time your terminal action does things with the top of your deck you might want to play the terminal before this "Hidden Village", like with Chancellor, Bureaucrat, Navigator, Duchess, Treasure Map, Develop.

Another feature is that you give less information to the opponents when they have a choice. With Hidden Village + Envoy in your hand you start with the Envoy and opponents will have to guess if action cards will be dead for you.

Another reason to play your terminal action before HV is if your terminal action gains a card which puts itself or other cards at the top of your deck, like Nomad Camp or Mandarin, or any card if you show Watchtower.

Even if the gained card doesn't go on top of your deck it can be worthwhile to play the gainer first if your deck is empty so you'll reshuffle before you play Hidden Village, so once in a while that could be worthwhile with almost any gainer -- Workshop, Feast, Remodel, Thief, Smuggler, Mint, Expand, Forge, etc. etc.

There are lots of other small effects. Play Counting House before HV to gain Coppers before reshuffling. Play Menagerie before HV so as to now risk getting a double. Play

I'd say that in almost all kingdoms Hidden Village will be better than plain Village, and in some very much better (like with Embassy, Margrave, Torturer).
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Davio

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2012, 05:55:54 pm »
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Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

That is a really nice way to realize it! Very cool. I think the card would actually be very strong with certain drawers. For example, imagine playing an Embassy and drawing this card (pretty likely since there are 9 to choose from): nearly guaranteed to go on to draw your entire deck if your deck composition is good.

You should call it "Hidden Village."
It's genius, I love it! It's very much in tune with the other Village+'s.
We just have to get used to playing the Smithy first if this is in hand, which is different from the other Villages.
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AJD

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2012, 05:57:31 pm »
+1

This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

The way it's worded now, I don't think it costs an action to use if you have 0 left. So it's often more advantageous to play it after your terminal leaving you with 2 actions instead of the normal 1 from a village/terminal pair.

How do you mean? I have one action; I play my Smithy, leaving me with 0 actions; I reveal Hidden Village (thanks, Robz888!) and play it, getting +1 action. There's no way for me end up with 2 actions remaining with this.
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AJD

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2012, 05:59:15 pm »
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All right, pst; you've convinced me that this is interestingly different from regular Village!  :)
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jonts26

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2012, 06:09:01 pm »
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This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

The way it's worded now, I don't think it costs an action to use if you have 0 left. So it's often more advantageous to play it after your terminal leaving you with 2 actions instead of the normal 1 from a village/terminal pair.

How do you mean? I have one action; I play my Smithy, leaving me with 0 actions; I reveal Hidden Village (thanks, Robz888!) and play it, getting +1 action. There's no way for me end up with 2 actions remaining with this.

Sorry, I misread the card text to say +1 card +2 actions so you're right, you only get one extra action to spend, just like a normal village. Though this does create a different small problem. If this is the only action in hand and you play it for +1 card/action and then draw a terminal drawer, you don't ever get the village benefit and it's just a pure cantrip. Also you sort of have to play this after your terminals.

I think the best way to word it would have the action part read +1 card +2 actions and the reaction part read +1 card +1 action. While a little wordier, it gives the player the choice of getting the village benefit whether or not you play it before or after your terminals, which should open up the strategy space just a touch.
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Axxle

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2012, 06:14:02 pm »
0

This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

The way it's worded now, I don't think it costs an action to use if you have 0 left. So it's often more advantageous to play it after your terminal leaving you with 2 actions instead of the normal 1 from a village/terminal pair.

How do you mean? I have one action; I play my Smithy, leaving me with 0 actions; I reveal Hidden Village (thanks, Robz888!) and play it, getting +1 action. There's no way for me end up with 2 actions remaining with this.

Sorry, I misread the card text to say +1 card +2 actions so you're right, you only get one extra action to spend, just like a normal village. Though this does create a different small problem. If this is the only action in hand and you play it for +1 card/action and then draw a terminal drawer, you don't ever get the village benefit and it's just a pure cantrip. Also you sort of have to play this after your terminals.

I think the best way to word it would have the action part read +1 card +2 actions and the reaction part read +1 card +1 action. While a little wordier, it gives the player the choice of getting the village benefit whether or not you play it before or after your terminals, which should open up the strategy space just a touch.
It would make it slightly easier to use, but I think it's more interesting with the hoop you have to jump through.
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