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Author Topic: What you think you've done / What you've actually done  (Read 34720 times)

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ecq

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What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« on: February 06, 2012, 12:40:07 pm »
+8

It's often difficult to see the real impact of a play on a hand or deck.  Sometimes when you analyze a play, you'll discover that what seemed like a good play is nearly* equivalent to something else that's obviously not that great.

* I'll stress nearly equivalent.  The idea here is to understand the impact of a play on your deck in the general case.  We can gloss over situations where Silver / Village might be a reasonable opening.

Here's the ones I can think of off the top of my head:

Situation: Open Silver / Village
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to get some early cards and actions
What you've actually done: Opened Silver / Nothing

Situation: Open Develop / Silver.  Trash an Estate, top-decking a Silver.
What you think you've done: Traded an Estate for a Silver, getting access to that Silver on your next turn
What you've actually done: Traded an Estate for a Develop, delaying access to a Silver by one turn (i.e. you could have opened Silver/Silver)

Situation: Play a Tournament game with mostly non-terminals.  Gain a Trusty Steed.  Always use it for +Cards +Actions.
What you think you've done: Snagged one of the most powerful cards in the game.  Prevented yourself from drawing your Tournaments dead.
What you've actually done: Added a Shanty Town to your deck

Situation: Buy lots of Highways without any support cards (+buy, Saboteur, etc)
What you think you've done: Found a spectacular deal on Provinces
What you've actually done: Paid $5 each for a bunch of Peddlers

Does anyone have other examples?
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petrie911

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 01:32:22 pm »
+2

Situation: Buy Menagerie/X first turn
What you think you've done: Given your deck the chance for some early nonterminal draw
What you've actually done: Opened Nothing/X

Situation: Open Mint/Courtyard
What you think you've done: Given yourself some good drawing and the ability to gradually increase the treasure quality of your deck.
What you've actually done: Crippled your buying power because you mistook a t for an e.
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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 01:49:46 pm »
0

Situation: Open Tunnel/Silver
What you think you've done: Bought the Tunnel early so you can combine it with a later Embassy
What you've actually done: Decreased your chance to actually buy that Embassy during the next shuffle.

Generally: Get the discarder first, then the Tunnel.
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Tahtweasel

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 01:51:47 pm »
+1

Situation: Open Tunnel/Silver
What you think you've done: Bought the Tunnel early so you can combine it with a later Embassy
What you've actually done: Decreased your chance to actually buy that Embassy during the next shuffle.

Generally: Get the discarder first, then the Tunnel.
I've seen people open Tunnel/Potion to try to get a Golem/Tunnel deck going. It didn't work so well.
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petrie911

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 02:01:50 pm »
0

Situation: Open Festival
What you think you've done: Opened with a powerful $5 card
What you've actually done: Opened with Woodcutter
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ratxt1

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 02:20:36 pm »
0

situation: Open Treasure map/Scheme
what you think you've done: opened with a strong combo making it more likely for your treasure maps to colide.
what you've actually done: trashed your treasure map.

How many people did'nt do this the first time they saw sceme and treaure map on the same board?
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Robz888

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 02:27:25 pm »
0

Situation: Opened Chapel/Silver in a game with Envoy and no other useful Actions.

What you think you've done:Prepared yourself to do some early trashing and set up one of those 'engines' you've heard so much about.
What you've actually done: Prepared yourself to buy your first Gold on the same turn that your opponent buys his second Province.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 04:45:17 pm by Robz888 »
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Asklepios

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 02:44:08 pm »
+3

Situation: Open Festival
What you think you've done: Opened with a powerful $5 card
What you've actually done: Opened with Woodcutter

This is the only one I'd dispute. Sure, its a woodcutter now, but if you've got a 5/2 opening and there's no other $5 out there, its better than silver.

Besides, there's a lot to be said for opening with woodcutter on the right kingdom...
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GendoIkari

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 02:46:38 pm »
0

Finally, a hand with 2 Nobels in it!

What you think you've done: Set up a powerful +actions +cards combo.
What you've actually done: Set up a +actions +cards combo that's worse than Village/Smithy. (And equivalent to playing 1 Laboratory.)
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Asklepios

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 02:46:51 pm »
0

Situation: Open Tunnel/Silver
What you think you've done: Bought the Tunnel early so you can combine it with a later Embassy
What you've actually done: Decreased your chance to actually buy that Embassy during the next shuffle.

Generally: Get the discarder first, then the Tunnel.

This, on the other hand is a truism that I learnt the hard way.
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Asklepios

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 02:50:29 pm »
0

Situation: Near the end of the game, on $6, you buy a gold:

What you think you've done: Increased your chances of getting a game-deciding Province.
What you've actually done: Put a treasure card in your discard pile that you won't draw this game, and cost yourself 3 VP.
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Deadlock39

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 02:51:42 pm »
+1

Situation: Play a Tournament game with mostly non-terminals.  Gain a Trusty Steed.  Always use it for +Cards +Actions.
What you think you've done: Snagged one of the most powerful cards in the game.  Prevented yourself from drawing your Tournaments dead.
What you've actually done: Added a Shanty Town to your deck

I think this is much more equivalent to a Laboratory than a Shanty Town if you don't have terminals you are using the actions for.  It isn't a good use of your Tournament Prize, but it's not a terrible addition to your deck even if you only use it as a Lab.

popsofctown

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 02:59:40 pm »
0

Situation: Opened Chapel/Silver in a game with Envoy and no other useful Actions.

What you think you've done:Prepared yourself to do some early trashing and set up one of those 'engines' you've heard so much about.
What you've actually done: Prepared yourself to buy you first Gold on the same turn that your opponent buys his second Province.

I don't understand why this is bad, and I probably need to because chapel is one of my weakest cards on councilroom.  Could you elaborate?
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GendoIkari

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2012, 03:04:40 pm »
0

Situation: Opened Chapel/Silver in a game with Envoy and no other useful Actions.

What you think you've done:Prepared yourself to do some early trashing and set up one of those 'engines' you've heard so much about.
What you've actually done: Prepared yourself to buy you first Gold on the same turn that your opponent buys his second Province.

I don't understand why this is bad, and I probably need to because chapel is one of my weakest cards on councilroom.  Could you elaborate?

Chapel/BM is slower than straight BM. Chapel is super-powerful when used to create an engine-type deck... one with lots of actions and drawing. But Envoy is much more powerful than Chapel if all you are doing is buying money and points.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 03:08:09 pm »
0

Buy a Hoard as soon as you hit 6, then buy Duchies or Estates whenever you play Hoard.

What you think you've done: Created a way to get lots of Gold for less than $6 each.
What you've actually done: Passed up a Gold for a Silver, and turned each of your subsequent Golds into $1.5 per card instead of $3 per card.
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petrie911

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 03:13:27 pm »
0

Situation: Opened Chapel/Silver in a game with Envoy and no other useful Actions.

What you think you've done:Prepared yourself to do some early trashing and set up one of those 'engines' you've heard so much about.
What you've actually done: Prepared yourself to buy you first Gold on the same turn that your opponent buys his second Province.

I don't understand why this is bad, and I probably need to because chapel is one of my weakest cards on councilroom.  Could you elaborate?

Chapel/Silver gets going a lot slower than Envoy/Silver, and you don't really catch up.  Those turns spent chapeling are turns you aren't getting more money, and you'll choke on green faster once you reach that phase of the game.  Also, the second reshuffle can go wrong for Chapel/Silver in more ways than it can for Silver/Envoy.
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ecq

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 03:48:44 pm »
0

Situation: Play a Tournament game with mostly non-terminals.  Gain a Trusty Steed.  Always use it for +Cards +Actions.
What you think you've done: Snagged one of the most powerful cards in the game.  Prevented yourself from drawing your Tournaments dead.
What you've actually done: Added a Shanty Town to your deck

I think this is much more equivalent to a Laboratory than a Shanty Town if you don't have terminals you are using the actions for.  It isn't a good use of your Tournament Prize, but it's not a terrible addition to your deck even if you only use it as a Lab.

Fair enough.  In a deck with no terminals, a single Shanty Town and a single Laboratory are pretty much the same thing.  The only difference is that Lab/Steed don't need to be played last.  In a Tournament game, that's probably an important distinction, though.

And yes, a single Laboratory is a decent addition to nearly every deck.  In a Tournament game, though, you're probably rushing to get Provinces and setting up your deck so you can connect Provinces with Tournaments.  While good, you wouldn't build your strategy around acquiring a single Laboratory.

I'm not trying to knock Trusty Steed, either.  It's a great card.  For me it was eye-opening realizing +2 Cards / +2 Actions was the same as what Shanty Town provides.  I had been taking cards/actions almost reflexively and therefore wasn't getting the most out of the card.
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ratxt1

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 03:55:47 pm »
0

on a related note to the one about the trust steed/lab/shanty town comparison.

situation: bought a lab in a kingdom with only non-terminals.
what you think you've done: bought a power 5 cost card
what you've actually done bought a shanty town

« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 04:53:58 pm by ratxt1 »
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popsofctown

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 03:57:43 pm »
0

Situation: Opened Chapel/Silver in a game with Envoy and no other useful Actions.

What you think you've done:Prepared yourself to do some early trashing and set up one of those 'engines' you've heard so much about.
What you've actually done: Prepared yourself to buy you first Gold on the same turn that your opponent buys his second Province.

I don't understand why this is bad, and I probably need to because chapel is one of my weakest cards on councilroom.  Could you elaborate?

Chapel/BM is slower than straight BM. Chapel is super-powerful when used to create an engine-type deck... one with lots of actions and drawing. But Envoy is much more powerful than Chapel if all you are doing is buying money and points.
I presume you mean "Chapel/BM and Chapel/Dead draw/BM are slower than Dead draw/BM"?
Since I'd be incredibly surprised if Chapel Bot loses to BM bot.

Either way, thank you for the illumination.
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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2012, 03:59:44 pm »
0

Absolutely. I guess I was looking at it from a "mostly non-terminal" perspective as originally stated, which is a situation where Shanty Town could end up dead. It is definitely a bad strategy to always be playing the Steed for cards/actions if you aren't using that extra action for something.  The point is a good one.  I felt like Shanty Town didn't quite fit, but it illustrates the point as well as Lab would.

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2012, 04:40:53 pm »
0

situation: You Embargoed the Provinces when behind on VP
What you think you've done: Discouraged other players from buying Provinces so you can sneak ahead by some miracle
The truth: http://img4.memecenter.com/uploaded/11561612361c9a2f4ee88f606d40016a9.jpg
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Robz888

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2012, 04:57:49 pm »
0

I presume you mean "Chapel/BM and Chapel/Dead draw/BM are slower than Dead draw/BM"?
Since I'd be incredibly surprised if Chapel Bot loses to BM bot.

Either way, thank you for the illumination.

My original claim was that Chapel/Big Money will lose to Big Money + Envoy (or Smithy). Of that, I'm positive. Chapel/Big Money might even lose to pure Big Money, I don't know. The latter is closer.

The reason is because a Chapel/Big Money deck really hurts during the greening stage. The fewer cards you have, the more your purchasing power suffers from filling your hand with Victory cards. Now, a well-constructed Action chain can handle the Victory cards, which is why Chapel is such a powerhouse--it's the fastest route to such an engine.

But if no engine exists--because the available cards don't lend themselves to one--trashing Coppers and Estates unnecessarily slows you down from getting Silvers and Golds. And Smithy/Big Money buys 4 Provinces in 14 or 15 turns, on average. With Chapel, you'll be trashing between Turns 3-6, and then need another couple turns for money. Also, say you manage to tie it up. The Chapel/Big Money player will in all likelihood lose the Duchy dance, because his purchasing power suffers way more from additional greening, while Mr. Smithy/Big Money continues along merrily buying Duchies (Coppers aren't so bad for buying Duchies, after all).
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Robz888

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2012, 05:02:31 pm »
0

Situation: You Embargo the Golds.

What you think you've done: Mercilessly blocked your opponent's Tunnel and Hoard-based deck. Curses for him!
What you've actually done: Forgot that gaining is not the same thing as buying. And now you can't buy Golds.
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dondon151

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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2012, 05:05:27 pm »
+1

situation: bought a lab in a kingdom with only non-terminals.
what you think you've done: bought a power 5 cost card
what you've actually done bought a shanty town

This is only true for the first Lab that you buy, and you always have to play Shanty Town last, which may make a difference for some non-terminal cards in edge cases (e.g. you draw a Spice Merchant with no Coppers in hand).
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Re: What you think you've done / What you've actually done
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2012, 05:17:45 pm »
0

Situation: You Embargo the Golds.

What you think you've done: Mercilessly blocked your opponent's Tunnel and Hoard-based deck. Curses for him!
What you've actually done: Forgot that gaining is not the same thing as buying. And now you can't buy Golds.

Hee hee. This was like the time I thought I was an evil mastermind blocking a gardens rush with embargo, before I realised he was just ironworksing them. Sigh.
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