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[ecq]

It's often difficult to see the real impact of a play on a hand or deck.  Sometimes when you analyze a play, you'll discover that what seemed like a good play is nearly* equivalent to something else that's obviously not that great.

* I'll stress nearly equivalent.  The idea here is to understand the impact of a play on your deck in the general case.  We can gloss over situations where Silver / Village might be a reasonable opening.

Here's the ones I can think of off the top of my head:

Situation: Open Silver / Village
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to get some early cards and actions
What you've actually done: Opened Silver / Nothing

Situation: Open Develop / Silver.  Trash an Estate, top-decking a Silver.
What you think you've done: Traded an Estate for a Silver, getting access to that Silver on your next turn
What you've actually done: Traded an Estate for a Develop, delaying access to a Silver by one turn (i.e. you could have opened Silver/Silver)

Situation: Play a Tournament game with mostly non-terminals.  Gain a Trusty Steed.  Always use it for +Cards +Actions.
What you think you've done: Snagged one of the most powerful cards in the game.  Prevented yourself from drawing your Tournaments dead.
What you've actually done: Added a Shanty Town to your deck

Situation: Buy lots of Highways without any support cards (+buy, Saboteur, etc)
What you think you've done: Found a spectacular deal on Provinces
What you've actually done: Paid $5 each for a bunch of Peddlers

Does anyone have other examples?

[petrie911]

Situation: Buy Menagerie/X first turn
What you think you've done: Given your deck the chance for some early nonterminal draw
What you've actually done: Opened Nothing/X

Situation: Open Mint/Courtyard
What you think you've done: Given yourself some good drawing and the ability to gradually increase the treasure quality of your deck.
What you've actually done: Crippled your buying power because you mistook a t for an e.

[Davio]

Situation: Open Tunnel/Silver
What you think you've done: Bought the Tunnel early so you can combine it with a later Embassy
What you've actually done: Decreased your chance to actually buy that Embassy during the next shuffle.

Generally: Get the discarder first, then the Tunnel.

[Tahtweasel]

Situation: Open Tunnel/Silver
What you think you've done: Bought the Tunnel early so you can combine it with a later Embassy
What you've actually done: Decreased your chance to actually buy that Embassy during the next shuffle.

Generally: Get the discarder first, then the Tunnel.

I've seen people open Tunnel/Potion to try to get a Golem/Tunnel deck going. It didn't work so well.

[petrie911]

Situation: Open Festival
What you think you've done: Opened with a powerful $5 card
What you've actually done: Opened with Woodcutter

[ratxt1]

situation: Open Treasure map/Scheme
what you think you've done: opened with a strong combo making it more likely for your treasure maps to colide.
what you've actually done: trashed your treasure map.

How many people did'nt do this the first time they saw sceme and treaure map on the same board?

[Robz888]

Situation: Opened Chapel/Silver in a game with Envoy and no other useful Actions.

What you think you've done:Prepared yourself to do some early trashing and set up one of those 'engines' you've heard so much about.
What you've actually done: Prepared yourself to buy your first Gold on the same turn that your opponent buys his second Province.

[Asklepios]

Situation: Open Festival
What you think you've done: Opened with a powerful $5 card
What you've actually done: Opened with Woodcutter

This is the only one I'd dispute. Sure, its a woodcutter now, but if you've got a 5/2 opening and there's no other $5 out there, its better than silver.

Besides, there's a lot to be said for opening with woodcutter on the right kingdom...

[GendoIkari]

Finally, a hand with 2 Nobels in it!

What you think you've done: Set up a powerful +actions +cards combo.
What you've actually done: Set up a +actions +cards combo that's worse than Village/Smithy. (And equivalent to playing 1 Laboratory.)

[Asklepios]

Situation: Open Tunnel/Silver
What you think you've done: Bought the Tunnel early so you can combine it with a later Embassy
What you've actually done: Decreased your chance to actually buy that Embassy during the next shuffle.

Generally: Get the discarder first, then the Tunnel.

This, on the other hand is a truism that I learnt the hard way.

[Asklepios]

Situation: Near the end of the game, on $6, you buy a gold:

What you think you've done: Increased your chances of getting a game-deciding Province.
What you've actually done: Put a treasure card in your discard pile that you won't draw this game, and cost yourself 3 VP.

[Deadlock39]

Situation: Play a Tournament game with mostly non-terminals.  Gain a Trusty Steed.  Always use it for +Cards +Actions.
What you think you've done: Snagged one of the most powerful cards in the game.  Prevented yourself from drawing your Tournaments dead.
What you've actually done: Added a Shanty Town to your deck

I think this is much more equivalent to a Laboratory than a Shanty Town if you don't have terminals you are using the actions for.  It isn't a good use of your Tournament Prize, but it's not a terrible addition to your deck even if you only use it as a Lab.

[popsofctown]

Situation: Opened Chapel/Silver in a game with Envoy and no other useful Actions.

What you think you've done:Prepared yourself to do some early trashing and set up one of those 'engines' you've heard so much about.
What you've actually done: Prepared yourself to buy you first Gold on the same turn that your opponent buys his second Province.

I don't understand why this is bad, and I probably need to because chapel is one of my weakest cards on councilroom.  Could you elaborate?

[GendoIkari]

Situation: Opened Chapel/Silver in a game with Envoy and no other useful Actions.

What you think you've done:Prepared yourself to do some early trashing and set up one of those 'engines' you've heard so much about.
What you've actually done: Prepared yourself to buy you first Gold on the same turn that your opponent buys his second Province.

I don't understand why this is bad, and I probably need to because chapel is one of my weakest cards on councilroom.  Could you elaborate?

Chapel/BM is slower than straight BM. Chapel is super-powerful when used to create an engine-type deck... one with lots of actions and drawing. But Envoy is much more powerful than Chapel if all you are doing is buying money and points.

[GendoIkari]

Buy a Hoard as soon as you hit 6, then buy Duchies or Estates whenever you play Hoard.

What you think you've done: Created a way to get lots of Gold for less than $6 each.
What you've actually done: Passed up a Gold for a Silver, and turned each of your subsequent Golds into $1.5 per card instead of $3 per card.

[petrie911]

Situation: Opened Chapel/Silver in a game with Envoy and no other useful Actions.

What you think you've done:Prepared yourself to do some early trashing and set up one of those 'engines' you've heard so much about.
What you've actually done: Prepared yourself to buy you first Gold on the same turn that your opponent buys his second Province.

I don't understand why this is bad, and I probably need to because chapel is one of my weakest cards on councilroom.  Could you elaborate?

Chapel/Silver gets going a lot slower than Envoy/Silver, and you don't really catch up.  Those turns spent chapeling are turns you aren't getting more money, and you'll choke on green faster once you reach that phase of the game.  Also, the second reshuffle can go wrong for Chapel/Silver in more ways than it can for Silver/Envoy.

[ecq]

Situation: Play a Tournament game with mostly non-terminals.  Gain a Trusty Steed.  Always use it for +Cards +Actions.
What you think you've done: Snagged one of the most powerful cards in the game.  Prevented yourself from drawing your Tournaments dead.
What you've actually done: Added a Shanty Town to your deck

I think this is much more equivalent to a Laboratory than a Shanty Town if you don't have terminals you are using the actions for.  It isn't a good use of your Tournament Prize, but it's not a terrible addition to your deck even if you only use it as a Lab.

Fair enough.  In a deck with no terminals, a single Shanty Town and a single Laboratory are pretty much the same thing.  The only difference is that Lab/Steed don't need to be played last.  In a Tournament game, that's probably an important distinction, though.

And yes, a single Laboratory is a decent addition to nearly every deck.  In a Tournament game, though, you're probably rushing to get Provinces and setting up your deck so you can connect Provinces with Tournaments.  While good, you wouldn't build your strategy around acquiring a single Laboratory.

I'm not trying to knock Trusty Steed, either.  It's a great card.  For me it was eye-opening realizing +2 Cards / +2 Actions was the same as what Shanty Town provides.  I had been taking cards/actions almost reflexively and therefore wasn't getting the most out of the card.

[ratxt1]

on a related note to the one about the trust steed/lab/shanty town comparison.

situation: bought a lab in a kingdom with only non-terminals.
what you think you've done: bought a power 5 cost card
what you've actually done bought a shanty town

[popsofctown]

Situation: Opened Chapel/Silver in a game with Envoy and no other useful Actions.

What you think you've done:Prepared yourself to do some early trashing and set up one of those 'engines' you've heard so much about.
What you've actually done: Prepared yourself to buy you first Gold on the same turn that your opponent buys his second Province.

I don't understand why this is bad, and I probably need to because chapel is one of my weakest cards on councilroom.  Could you elaborate?

Chapel/BM is slower than straight BM. Chapel is super-powerful when used to create an engine-type deck... one with lots of actions and drawing. But Envoy is much more powerful than Chapel if all you are doing is buying money and points.

I presume you mean "Chapel/BM and Chapel/Dead draw/BM are slower than Dead draw/BM"?
Since I'd be incredibly surprised if Chapel Bot loses to BM bot.

Either way, thank you for the illumination.

[Deadlock39]

Absolutely. I guess I was looking at it from a "mostly non-terminal" perspective as originally stated, which is a situation where Shanty Town could end up dead. It is definitely a bad strategy to always be playing the Steed for cards/actions if you aren't using that extra action for something.  The point is a good one.  I felt like Shanty Town didn't quite fit, but it illustrates the point as well as Lab would.

[jsh357]

situation: You Embargoed the Provinces when behind on VP
What you think you've done: Discouraged other players from buying Provinces so you can sneak ahead by some miracle
The truth: http://img4.memecenter.com/uploaded/11561612361c9a2f4ee88f606d40016a9.jpg

[Robz888]

I presume you mean "Chapel/BM and Chapel/Dead draw/BM are slower than Dead draw/BM"?
Since I'd be incredibly surprised if Chapel Bot loses to BM bot.

Either way, thank you for the illumination.

My original claim was that Chapel/Big Money will lose to Big Money + Envoy (or Smithy). Of that, I'm positive. Chapel/Big Money might even lose to pure Big Money, I don't know. The latter is closer.

The reason is because a Chapel/Big Money deck really hurts during the greening stage. The fewer cards you have, the more your purchasing power suffers from filling your hand with Victory cards. Now, a well-constructed Action chain can handle the Victory cards, which is why Chapel is such a powerhouse--it's the fastest route to such an engine.

But if no engine exists--because the available cards don't lend themselves to one--trashing Coppers and Estates unnecessarily slows you down from getting Silvers and Golds. And Smithy/Big Money buys 4 Provinces in 14 or 15 turns, on average. With Chapel, you'll be trashing between Turns 3-6, and then need another couple turns for money. Also, say you manage to tie it up. The Chapel/Big Money player will in all likelihood lose the Duchy dance, because his purchasing power suffers way more from additional greening, while Mr. Smithy/Big Money continues along merrily buying Duchies (Coppers aren't so bad for buying Duchies, after all).

[Robz888]

Situation: You Embargo the Golds.

What you think you've done: Mercilessly blocked your opponent's Tunnel and Hoard-based deck. Curses for him!
What you've actually done: Forgot that gaining is not the same thing as buying. And now you can't buy Golds.

[dondon151]

situation: bought a lab in a kingdom with only non-terminals.
what you think you've done: bought a power 5 cost card
what you've actually done bought a shanty town

This is only true for the first Lab that you buy, and you always have to play Shanty Town last, which may make a difference for some non-terminal cards in edge cases (e.g. you draw a Spice Merchant with no Coppers in hand).

[Loschmidt]

Situation: You Embargo the Golds.

What you think you've done: Mercilessly blocked your opponent's Tunnel and Hoard-based deck. Curses for him!
What you've actually done: Forgot that gaining is not the same thing as buying. And now you can't buy Golds.

Hee hee. This was like the time I thought I was an evil mastermind blocking a gardens rush with embargo, before I realised he was just ironworksing them. Sigh.

[Loschmidt]

Buy a Hoard as soon as you hit 6, then buy Duchies or Estates whenever you play Hoard.

What you think you've done: Created a way to get lots of Gold for less than $6 each.
What you've actually done: Passed up a Gold for a Silver, and turned each of your subsequent Golds into $1.5 per card instead of $3 per card.

If all you're doing is buying hoards and VP then you're right, its pretty stupid. But with any sort of sifting (cellar/warehouse/embassy) at all this is a perfectly legit strategy.

Hmmm...this makes me wonder now. I think i'd like to simulate

Hoard+BM
Hoard+BM (where you always buy VP when hoard shows up)
Hoard+BM+cellar/warehouse/embassy (where you always buy VP when hoard shows up)

[HiveMindEmulator]

Situation: Open Festival
What you think you've done: Opened with a powerful $5 card
What you've actually done: Opened with Woodcutter

What you think you've done: Made a good post on this thread.
What you've actually done: Ignored the longer-term benefits of a Festival opening.

[popsofctown]

To be specific, I meant the optimization of Chapel/Big Money vs. Big Money, not necessarily the Silver/Chapel opening.  A turn 3 or 4 Chapel might be better, trashing estates and coppers only as much as you can while still buying a silver or gold.

[Tahtweasel]

Situation: Open Festival
What you think you've done: Opened with a powerful $5 card
What you've actually done: Opened with Woodcutter

What you think you've done: Made a good post on this thread.
What you've actually done: Ignored the longer-term benefits of a Festival opening.

Depends on what terminals are available. If there aren't any useful terminals, Festival = Woodcutter.

[ftl]

If there's no useful terminals, then yeah, getting a card that has +2 actions on it is might be a waste in general, not just as an opener. (Exceptions exist, like Minion, but still.)

But is it really that common for a board to have no useful terminals, and yet still have something better than Festival for a 5-2 start? At the very least, Festival is at least a Silver.

[Deadlock39]

Yeah, even without any useful terminals, Festival is better than Woodcutter.  The first one isn't an improvement, but you can buy more of them later in the game with no concerns of them colliding unlike Woodcutter.  It's not a great 5, but in this scenario it is strictly superior to Silver (+buy) and Woodcutter (can't collide).

[Loschmidt]

Buy a Hoard as soon as you hit 6, then buy Duchies or Estates whenever you play Hoard.

What you think you've done: Created a way to get lots of Gold for less than $6 each.
What you've actually done: Passed up a Gold for a Silver, and turned each of your subsequent Golds into $1.5 per card instead of $3 per card.

If all you're doing is buying hoards and VP then you're right, its pretty stupid. But with any sort of sifting (cellar/warehouse/embassy) at all this is a perfectly legit strategy.

Hmmm...this makes me wonder now. I think i'd like to simulate

Hoard+BM
Hoard+BM (where you always buy VP when hoard shows up)
Hoard+BM+cellar/warehouse/embassy (where you always buy VP when hoard shows up)

After doing some simulation I think I need to eat my words GendoIkari. Not only does optimised Hoard lose to Big Money but Hoard + X basically ties with BM + X. And Hoard + Embassy loses to BM + Embassy.

You're going to need a well thought out strategy to make use of Hoard properly.

The numbers if anyone is interested.

Bot   vs    BMU

Hoard                         45 46
Hoard + cellar              45 46
Hoard + warehouse       50 41
Hoard + embassy          72 21
H+warehouse+embassy  73 21

Hoard + X vs BMU + X

H+cellar                      49 46 (Hoard only wins here because BMU beats BMU+cellar 46/44)
H+warehouse               47 46
H+embassy                  41 51
H+warehouse+embassy  46 44

Keep in mind all of these bots aren't optimised. It might be possible to eek out a few percent in places.

[Forge!!!]

Buy a Hoard as soon as you hit 6, then buy Duchies or Estates whenever you play Hoard.

What you think you've done: Created a way to get lots of Gold for less than $6 each.
What you've actually done: Passed up a Gold for a Silver, and turned each of your subsequent Golds into $1.5 per card instead of $3 per card.

If all you're doing is buying hoards and VP then you're right, its pretty stupid. But with any sort of sifting (cellar/warehouse/embassy) at all this is a perfectly legit strategy.

Hmmm...this makes me wonder now. I think i'd like to simulate

Hoard+BM
Hoard+BM (where you always buy VP when hoard shows up)
Hoard+BM+cellar/warehouse/embassy (where you always buy VP when hoard shows up)

After doing some simulation I think I need to eat my words GendoIkari. Not only does optimised Hoard lose to Big Money but Hoard + X basically ties with BM + X. And Hoard + Embassy loses to BM + Embassy.

You're going to need a well thought out strategy to make use of Hoard properly.

The numbers if anyone is interested.

Bot   vs    BMU

Hoard                         45 46
Hoard + cellar              45 46
Hoard + warehouse       50 41
Hoard + embassy          72 21
H+warehouse+embassy  73 21

Hoard + X vs BMU + X

H+cellar                      49 46 (Hoard only wins here because BMU beats BMU+cellar 46/44)
H+warehouse               47 46
H+embassy                  41 51
H+warehouse+embassy  46 44

Keep in mind all of these bots aren't optimised. It might be possible to eek out a few percent in places.

The creepiest thing in the world: I was reading this exact post, and Loschmidt asked to play a game with me on Isotropic. I think he might be keeping track of who is reading this post somehow....

[Loschmidt]

I'm watching.......always watching....

[HiveMindEmulator]

After doing some simulation I think I need to eat my words GendoIkari. Not only does optimised Hoard lose to Big Money but Hoard + X basically ties with BM + X. And Hoard + Embassy loses to BM + Embassy.

The "optimized" Hoard bot is really bad. There is a better one here.

[WanderingWinder]

After doing some simulation I think I need to eat my words GendoIkari. Not only does optimised Hoard lose to Big Money but Hoard + X basically ties with BM + X. And Hoard + Embassy loses to BM + Embassy.

The "optimized" Hoard bot is really bad. There is a better one here.

Yes, the one in the sim is quite old and terrible. In fact, we've been working on improving it today... and it beats BMU pretty handily, buy you've got to play it right.

[Kirian]

I'm watching.......always watching....

[jotheonah]

What you think you've done: Bought two Treasure Maps
What you've actually done: Bought one Treasure Map

Ok, I know not quite in the spirit of the thread.

[Robz888]

To be specific, I meant the optimization of Chapel/Big Money vs. Big Money, not necessarily the Silver/Chapel opening.  A turn 3 or 4 Chapel might be better, trashing estates and coppers only as much as you can while still buying a silver or gold.

I've read that buying Chapel after turn 2 is really bad. If you are going to buy Chapel, you should buy it as soon as possible.

The point with Chapel vs. Big Money is that trashing Coppers and Estates doesn't really help unless you are then going to construct a massive engine.

[DStu]

Depends on what terminals are available. If there aren't any useful terminals, Festival = Woodcutter.

If there aren't any usefull terminals, a Woodcutter is a good buy...

[Eistee]

Seriously, guys.

I can't read a single "fun" thread on this forum anymore because it will eventually be filled with

1. someone pointing out that someone is wrong (like here, with festival)
2. arguments wether this card or another card is better in BMU
3. people pulling out simulator data no one reading this thread cares about
4. more arguing

Yes, I know that discussing the strength of cards is nice. But please, do it in a thread that was created for it... This thread is named "What you think you've done/What you've actually done", and not "Post statements. Let other people discuss wether they are true or false"

Sorry if I sound butthurt (I'm sure I do), but I find this quite annoying. I wanted to have a good laugh, but that isn't possible when only every 10th post actually has something to do with the topic.

[Asklepios]

Ok, here's one I've done:

Situation: Buy Haggler in a Vineyards game.

What you think you've done: Set up a crazy two for one deal that will see your number of actions in deck go up twice as fast.

What you've actually done: Forced yourself to buy a copper whenever you buy a vineyard AND passed up a chance to buy a potion, thus giving two reasons why you eventually lose the Vineyard race...

[Davio]

What you think you've done: Bought two Treasure Maps
What you've actually done: Bought one Treasure Map

Ok, I know not quite in the spirit of the thread.

Treasure Map is awkwardly named, the card should read: Half of a Treasure Map.

[Anon79]

Looking at the OP, this didn't seem to start off as a fun thread.

[Davio]

Situation: Grab a Lookout
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to trash Curses
What you've actually done: Trashed Coppers

[GendoIkari]

situation: You Embargoed the Provinces when behind on VP
What you think you've done: Discouraged other players from buying Provinces so you can sneak ahead by some miracle
The truth: http://img4.memecenter.com/uploaded/11561612361c9a2f4ee88f606d40016a9.jpg

Not necessarily!  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1678.0

[WanderingWinder]

Ok, here's one I've done:

Situation: Buy Haggler in a Vineyards game.

What you think you've done: Set up a crazy two for one deal that will see your number of actions in deck go up twice as fast.

What you've actually done: Forced yourself to buy a copper whenever you buy a vineyard AND passed up a chance to buy a potion, thus giving two reasons why you eventually lose the Vineyard race...

Just don't play haggler when you're going to buy a vineyard.....

[TrojH]

Situation: Grab a Lookout
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to trash Curses
What you've actually done: Trashed Coppers

To play off of this one:

Situation: Play a Lookout late in the game
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to trash a Curse or a Copper
What you've actually done: Trashed a Province, since you had three of them on top of your deck.

[Robz888]

Situation: Played a bunch of Governors for +cards, and bought one Province with your $20 in hand.

What you think you've done: This is great, I drew my whole deck!
What you've actually done: So did everybody else.

[ratxt1]

Situation: after a long governer +card chain you play a militia.
what you think you've done: discarded them down to a worse hand than they started
what you've actually done: tutored the 3 best cards of their deck.

of course a militia is still a great complemint to a governer deck. It doesn't mean you can just play goverener for cards without thinking though. Minion on the other hand...

[heatthespurs]

Looking at the OP, this didn't seem to start off as a fun thread.

Agree. This is more like a list of some common but not-so-trivial mistake in this game. And this would inevitably lead to some discussion (and debate) over the usage of different cards

Actually i think this kind of "off topic" discussion pretty useful in improving my game

[Asklepios]

Ok, here's one I've done:

Situation: Buy Haggler in a Vineyards game.

What you think you've done: Set up a crazy two for one deal that will see your number of actions in deck go up twice as fast.

What you've actually done: Forced yourself to buy a copper whenever you buy a vineyard AND passed up a chance to buy a potion, thus giving two reasons why you eventually lose the Vineyard race...

Just don't play haggler when you're going to buy a vineyard.....

Yeah, fair enough!

Still, better to spend that $5 on a potion almost every time, or if buying actions, to buy a cheap action that is one of the three-piles and gives a +buy.

[ecq]

Looking at the OP, this didn't seem to start off as a fun thread.

Agree. This is more like a list of some common but not-so-trivial mistake in this game. And this would inevitably lead to some discussion (and debate) over the usage of different cards

Actually i think this kind of "off topic" discussion pretty useful in improving my game

As the OP, this is correct.  The format probably made it seem more lighthearted than I had intended.  I was trying to collect examples of plays that look good but are nearly equivalent to plays that clearly aren't as good.  Three of the four examples I listed were eye-opening to me when I found them (the Village one wasn't, but it's the canonical example).  I figured I'd share them and hopefully pick up some more.

That said, I'm glad people are having fun with it, and sometimes even the joking posts have something useful to share about the game.

[Davio]

Situation: Open with Potion in a game with only Golem or Possession as Potion-costing cards
What you think you've done: On your way to hit those power cards!
What you've actually done: Gave yourself a useless card for the first 2/3 shuffles

Chances are you're not going to hit that Golem after the first shuffle, it would be the equivalent of getting an early Gold, since you need Potion-4C or Potion-3C-S, thus not a single Estate. Even if you would get the Golem, that could have been a Gold and the order is wrong. Golem is a support card and it's only as good as the cards it draws. If you get Golem first and the good cards later, it's useless. Get the cards you want Golem to dig up first and the Golem later if you still think you need it (you probably don't).

For Possession it's even more difficult to get and you need the equivalent of a Province buying hand to grab it, so you could've bought a Province instead.

[Voltgloss]

Situation:  buy a Duchy when running a Hunting Party deck
What you think you've done: Given yourself a VP edge when fighting over the Provinces
What you've actually done: Ruined your ability to actually buy those Provinces

[Ozle]

Situation: Typed gg into the text box before logging off
What you think you've done: Shown a sign of sportsmanship to your opponent
What you've actually done: Nothing; besides posting a generic non-pleasentry that everybody does by rote so your opponent has no idea wheher it was genuine or not.

[Kirian]

Situation: Typed gg into the text box before logging off
What you think you've done: Shown a sign of sportsmanship to your opponent
What you've actually done: Nothing; besides posting a generic non-pleasentry that everybody does by rote so your opponent has no idea wheher it was genuine or not.

:rolleyes:

[DStu]

Situation:

Situation: Typed gg into the text box before logging off
What you think you've done: Shown a sign of sportsmanship to your opponent
What you've actually done: Nothing; besides posting a generic non-pleasentry that everybody does by rote so your opponent has no idea wheher it was genuine or not.

What you think you've done: made a contribution to this thread.
What you've actually done: killed this thread...

[Ozle]

Doh, sorry!

[RisingJaguar]

Situation: Typed gg into the text box before logging off
What you think you've done: Shown a sign of sportsmanship to your opponent
What you've actually done: Nothing; besides posting a generic non-pleasentry that everybody does by rote so your opponent has no idea wheher it was genuine or not.

Decline of Civility, Isotropic section of forums.  You'll have a ball there

[Julle]

What you think you've done: set up a great plan by embargoing curses several times and now gaining several silvers with traders in hand
What you've actually done: played you traders and now you're gaining several curses

[DrHades]

Situation: Trashing Estate into a 4$ with Farmland
What you think you've done: Getting rid of Estate and gaining a great card instead.
What you've actually done: Maikng your Estate worth 1 point more and buying a 4$ instead of 5$ or Gold.

I think MANY people don't get this one...

[Axxle]

Situation: Buying a Fairgrounds with $6
What you think you've done: Increased your VP count by a significant amount with a diverse deck.
What you've actually done: Trashed your province for nothing since you actually bought a Farmland.

That wasn't a good day...  Remember to read the cards!

[Robz888]

Situation: Bought Hoard in a Colony game.

What you think you've done: Prepared yourself for gold-gaining so you can move on to Platinums and Colonies.
What you've actually done: Bought an expensive Silver that will tempt you to decrease the value of your deck.

[jotheonah]

Situation: Trashing Estate into a 4$ with Farmland
What you think you've done: Getting rid of Estate and gaining a great card instead.
What you've actually done: Maikng your Estate worth 1 point more and buying a 4$ instead of 5$ or Gold.

I think MANY people don't get this one...

But you've "made your Estate" remodelable (or Farmlandable) into a Province. So it's not as bad as all that.

[blueblimp]

Situation: Trashing Estate into a 4$ with Farmland
What you think you've done: Getting rid of Estate and gaining a great card instead.
What you've actually done: Maikng your Estate worth 1 point more and buying a 4$ instead of 5$ or Gold.

I think MANY people don't get this one...

On a similar theme...

Situation: Have an Estate and Curse in hand, use Salvager on the Curse.
What you think you've done: Completely negated one of your opponent's Witch plays!
What you've actually done: Given up an additional $2 that turn in exchange for +2VP net.

This is not necessarily a bad play, but I definitely feel the urge to trash Curses more than is actually worth it.

[Asklepios]

Situation: Trashing Estate into a 4$ with Farmland
What you think you've done: Getting rid of Estate and gaining a great card instead.
What you've actually done: Maikng your Estate worth 1 point more and buying a 4$ instead of 5$ or Gold.

I think MANY people don't get this one...

But you've "made your Estate" remodelable (or Farmlandable) into a Province. So it's not as bad as all that.

Exactly!

I think a lot of people actually don't appreciate how much faster Farmlands can make a deck. Suddenly, you need $6 to start on the Province run, rather than $8. Also, marginal VP gains = tiebreaker in a 4-4 province split.

Farmlands is a card that I initially thought weak, but with time am beginning to see as an essential buy whenever it turns up. Unless there really is an incredible power card at $5, or my deck doesn't have a couple of golds yet, I'd almost always advocate getting the Farmland and changing the estate to a useful $4. What has actually happened is:

...+1 VP net total, ok not great, but every point counts.
...the card slot that was dead from being occupied by an estate is now occupied by a useful card for any trash-for-benefit, and we know that there's at least one trash for benefit card in the set: Farmland. If there's other trash for benefits in the Kingdom, then Farmlands becomes even better!
...a $4  card has been bought.

Compare this to buying a $5 card:

...a $5 card has been bought.

And that's it.

Farmland suddenly looks quite appealing, though obviously the real deciding factor is how much better a $5 card in a given kingdom is than a $4 card.
But as a rule of thumb, I think Farmland, a good card gained and a bad card trashed is worth way more than most $5 action cards

Buying a gold, OTOH, is very different. My general observation is most people don't buy enough gold. In the early to mid game Gold is probably better than Farmland + a great trash (i.e. okay $3-> great $5). In the late game, once you have enough gold in deck, I'd strongly advocate the Farmland if it gives even a slightly worthwhile trash.

[DrHades]

Situation: Trashing Estate into a 4$ with Farmland
What you think you've done: Getting rid of Estate and gaining a great card instead.
What you've actually done: Maikng your Estate worth 1 point more and buying a 4$ instead of 5$ or Gold.

I think MANY people don't get this one...

But you've "made your Estate" remodelable (or Farmlandable) into a Province. So it's not as bad as all that.

Exactly!

I think a lot of people actually don't appreciate how much faster Farmlands can make a deck. Suddenly, you need $6 to start on the Province run, rather than $8. Also, marginal VP gains = tiebreaker in a 4-4 province split.

Farmlands is a card that I initially thought weak, but with time am beginning to see as an essential buy whenever it turns up. Unless there really is an incredible power card at $5, or my deck doesn't have a couple of golds yet, I'd almost always advocate getting the Farmland and changing the estate to a useful $4. What has actually happened is:

...+1 VP net total, ok not great, but every point counts.
...the card slot that was dead from being occupied by an estate is now occupied by a useful card for any trash-for-benefit, and we know that there's at least one trash for benefit card in the set: Farmland. If there's other trash for benefits in the Kingdom, then Farmlands becomes even better!
...a $4  card has been bought.

Compare this to buying a $5 card:

...a $5 card has been bought.

And that's it.

Farmland suddenly looks quite appealing, though obviously the real deciding factor is how much better a $5 card in a given kingdom is than a $4 card.
But as a rule of thumb, I think Farmland, a good card gained and a bad card trashed is worth way more than most $5 action cards

Buying a gold, OTOH, is very different. My general observation is most people don't buy enough gold. In the early to mid game Gold is probably better than Farmland + a great trash (i.e. okay $3-> great $5). In the late game, once you have enough gold in deck, I'd strongly advocate the Farmland if it gives even a slightly worthwhile trash.

Situation 1: Trashing Estate into a 4$ with Farmland.

You are really saying that +1VP, SilveronlywhenyouneedtobuyProvince and 4$ is better than Blank card (estate) and great action or Gold?
Early game: I wanna gold.
Mid game: Maybe sometimes yes, but mostly I want a 5$ or Gold.
Late game: Tottally stupid, I don't wanna get rid of my Estate.

Situation 2: Trashing 3$ into 5$ with Farmland.

Let's say that 3$ is a Silver (it can be better, it can be worse, but let's say it's Silver). So this is:
Silver + 5$/Gold vs. 2VP + SilveronlywhenyouneedtobuyProvince + 5$. Let's say I don't want to Gold, so this is:
Silver vs. Harem that works only when buing Province and only 1 at a time.
Again - maybe in late midgame, but never at the beggining or at the end.

I am not saying that Farmland is a bad card, I am just saying that its main use is to trash things for greens at the end of the game. When you are trashing with it early, it is mostly bad decision and if in the midgame, you might be right, but you need a very good plan to do so...

And as for the extra points - yeah, but you are also making buying Duchies much more difficult for you...

[mnavratil]

It's not even extra points most of the time if you are playing Farmlands like that. Example: Buy Farmlands, Trash estate for $4 action. Buy Farmlands, Trash Farmlands into Province. End result +8VP (1 Farmlands, 1 Province).

Better Scenario: Buy Gold. Buy Farmland, Trash Gold, Gain Province. End result +8VP (1 farmlands, 1 province).

What you actually do when trashing an estate is to trade a gold for a $4 action. Any trash for benefit cards that can use farmland, can also use gold, but the gold is also much better to have in your deck.

[RisingJaguar]

Situation 2: Trashing 3$ into 5$ with Farmland.

Let's say that 3$ is a Silver (it can be better, it can be worse, but let's say it's Silver). So this is:
Silver + 5$/Gold vs. 2VP + SilveronlywhenyouneedtobuyProvince + 5$. Let's say I don't want to Gold, so this is:
Silver vs. Harem that works only when buing Province and only 1 at a time.
Again - maybe in late midgame, but never at the beggining or at the end.

I am not saying that Farmland is a bad card, I am just saying that its main use is to trash things for greens at the end of the game. When you are trashing with it early, it is mostly bad decision and if in the midgame, you might be right, but you need a very good plan to do so...

Actually the end is probably where its more useful.  Especially in PPR situations, buying farmland and using a $3 (lets say silver again) to become a duchy.  One you don't waste $8 on a duchy, and two you jump forward 2VP assuming OP gets a duchy as well. 

I agree its a bad card, but it has its uses.  The original post about trashing the estate (presumably early in the game), is not one of them.  Unless its silk road/gardens.

[DrHades]

I am just saying that its main use is to trash things for greens at the end of the game.

Actually the end is probably where its more useful.

Am I missing something or did you just corrected me by saying the same thing?

[RisingJaguar]

I am just saying that its main use is to trash things for greens at the end of the game.

Actually the end is probably where its more useful.

Am I missing something or did you just corrected me by saying the same thing?

Again - maybe in late midgame, but never at the beggining or at the end.

I guess I just misunderstood, a little misleading though. 

[DrHades]

I am just saying that its main use is to trash things for greens at the end of the game.

Actually the end is probably where its more useful.

Am I missing something or did you just corrected me by saying the same thing?

Again - maybe in late midgame, but never at the beggining or at the end.

I guess I just misunderstood, a little misleading though.

I was refering to a situation where you trash a 3$ action/Silver into a 5$ action, which really is stupid in the endgame, because you wanna Duchy instead and thus getting 5VP...but I am sorry, it was a bit misleading...

[WallyNate]

on a related note to the one about the trust steed/lab/shanty town comparison.

situation: bought a lab in a kingdom with only non-terminals.
what you think you've done: bought a power 5 cost card
what you've actually done bought a shanty town

situation: Made the above argument.
what you think you've done: Totally dissed Lab
what you've actually done: Made a good case for buying a single shanty town in such a deck

[Davio]

Situation: Bought lots of Cartographers
What you think you've done: Able to sift through your bad cards, playing only good cards
What you've actually done: Grouped your bad cards together so you still have to play them

Cartographer is kind of trappy to me, since I see a lot of players overinvesting in it and forgetting to actually buy those good cards.

Oh, and it takes forever to resolve of course.

[Dubdubdubdub]

Situation: Bought lots of Cartographers
What you think you've done: Able to sift through your bad cards, playing only good cards
What you've actually done: Grouped your bad cards together so you still have to play them

Cartographer is kind of trappy to me, since I see a lot of players overinvesting in it and forgetting to actually buy those good cards.

Oh, and it takes forever to resolve of course.

How do you see playing Cartographer as grouping bad cards together? Bad cards are discarded, so you definitely play them less often. I agree though, that cycling alone isn't enough (even filtered cycling like Cartographer) and those good cards do need to be bought.

[Davio]

I see that a lot of people get caught up too much with Cartographers and this makes them buy less money or other good cards.

And Cartographer can cause nasty reshuffles so those discarded bad cards get thrown right back into the mix.

[Dubdubdubdub]

Right, you have to be careful with your reshuffles; that's a big leap in the use of any grand cycler.


ps. I didn't mean to say 'Wow, do you see Cartographer as a grouping bad cards together?', but '*How do you see...". Without the astonishment

[Robz888]

I see that a lot of people get caught up too much with Cartographers and this makes them buy less money or other good cards.

And Cartographer can cause nasty reshuffles so those discarded bad cards get thrown right back into the mix.

I think Cartographer is a very useful card, but you are absolutely right about people over-buying it, buying it instead of money, and buying it too early. You will see people make Cartographer their first purchase when they $5, when all they have in their deck is Coppers, Estates, a few Silvers, and a terminal Action. In that case, Cartographer is just the world's worst Warehouse.

Double Cartographer is a good alternative to trashing, or a nice supplement to trashing in a bloated deck or a deck under heavy attack from cursers. I've also found it semi-useful at matching together cards like Baron with Estate. And great with Tunnel, of course. But people buy it like its the first and most vital purchase in an accelerated engine chain, which is most likely wrong.

[Piemaster]

Situation: Open Silver / Village
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to get some early cards and actions
What you've actually done: Opened Silver / Nothing

I have to confess I've opened Silver/Village before.  Usually on boards where there are a lot of power terminal 5s (esp drawing) and not a lot of note in the 3 and 4 slot.  My reasoning is that I will ultimately need a few villages for my engine and so I may as well pick them up while I can.  Is this legitimate or is it terribad and I should always just open double silver instead?

[Geronimoo]

I have to confess I've opened Silver/Village before.  Usually on boards where there are a lot of power terminal 5s (esp drawing) and not a lot of note in the 3 and 4 slot.  My reasoning is that I will ultimately need a few villages for my engine and so I may as well pick them up while I can.  Is this legitimate or is it terribad and I should always just open double silver instead?

Opening Village makes baby Jesus cry... (unless it's a Worker's Village and there's a Peddler )

[HiveMindEmulator]

Situation: Open Silver / Village
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to get some early cards and actions
What you've actually done: Opened Silver / Nothing

I have to confess I've opened Silver/Village before.  Usually on boards where there are a lot of power terminal 5s (esp drawing) and not a lot of note in the 3 and 4 slot.  My reasoning is that I will ultimately need a few villages for my engine and so I may as well pick them up while I can.  Is this legitimate or is it terribad and I should always just open double silver instead?

The thing is, you need some way to get those 5s, and the village doesn't help you get there. The only time a village opening really makes sense, imo, is if you're getting it with remodel/ironworks/workshop and going for mass terminal 4s (i.e. smithy/conspirator)

[blueblimp]

Situation: Open Silver / Village
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to get some early cards and actions
What you've actually done: Opened Silver / Nothing

I have to confess I've opened Silver/Village before.  Usually on boards where there are a lot of power terminal 5s (esp drawing) and not a lot of note in the 3 and 4 slot.  My reasoning is that I will ultimately need a few villages for my engine and so I may as well pick them up while I can.  Is this legitimate or is it terribad and I should always just open double silver instead?

To add a comment (although I'm not too high level), you actually won't need villages for your engine particularly soon. I find it's way more important to get the drawing components first so that you have enough buying power and deck movement. It's not too bad if you, e.g., buy a couple Torturers with no village and draw one dead, since your deck will be cycling faster on average than if one of those were a village.

[jotheonah]

Silver/Fishing Village, though, is different. Since it IS money producing, and you'll really want it with your terminals later because it helps them twice as much.

[Loschmidt]

Situation: Open Silver / Village
What you think you've done: Given yourself a chance to get some early cards and actions
What you've actually done: Opened Silver / Nothing

I have to confess I've opened Silver/Village before.  Usually on boards where there are a lot of power terminal 5s (esp drawing) and not a lot of note in the 3 and 4 slot.  My reasoning is that I will ultimately need a few villages for my engine and so I may as well pick them up while I can.  Is this legitimate or is it terribad and I should always just open double silver instead?

Unless you have at least 2 terminal actions there is literally no situation in which your village is useful.

I get what you mean though, it feels sillly spending $5 on a village later on if you could spend $3 on it now, but before you have 2 terminals it has absolutely no use, whereas a silver will help you now and forever.

[Davio]

I would go so far as to saying: even with 2 terminals, Villages are of marginal value. The chance that you'll draw them together isn't that high and you can still draw them together without a Village! So the Village doesn't add much.

I'm not buying Villages nearly as much as I used to. Earlier in my *ahum* career, I was so scared of terminal collision I always bought some Villages, but now I just go "darn" when my 2 terminals collide.

Of course there are a lot of Villages that have uses beyond giving an extra action and whether or not I'll buy them depends on those other properties. Worker's Village into Peddler is of course very nice and Fishing Village is just a really good card.

[petrie911]

On the subject of villages, I used to think of Mining Village as a more expensive village with some extra endgame utility.  Now I tend to see it as a one-shot Grand Bazaar.

[chwhite]

On the subject of villages, I used to think of Mining Village as a more expensive village with some extra endgame utility.  Now I tend to see it as a one-shot Grand Bazaar.

That's funny, I used to think of Mining Village as a one-shot Grand Bazaar and now I consider it mostly an expensive village with extra endgame utility.

[blueblimp]

I'm not buying Villages nearly as much as I used to. Earlier in my *ahum* career, I was so scared of terminal collision I always bought some Villages, but now I just go "darn" when my 2 terminals collide.

The same thing happened with me. I think I used to start buying villages when I only had one terminal, and now I'm delaying them more and more. I think the reason I used to do that is that terminal collisions feel so bad, but as you point out, buying villages isn't actually so helpful for preventing terminal collision, with the exception of fishing village (and maybe walled village?). It would be a different story if somehow a smithy->village play order were legal. =P

[AJD]

It would be a different story if somehow a smithy->village play order were legal. =P

This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

[blueblimp]

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

That is a really nice way to realize it! Very cool. I think the card would actually be very strong with certain drawers. For example, imagine playing an Embassy and drawing this card (pretty likely since there are 9 to choose from): nearly guaranteed to go on to draw your entire deck if your deck composition is good.

[jonts26]

It would be a different story if somehow a smithy->village play order were legal. =P

This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

The way it's worded now, I don't think it costs an action to use if you have 0 left. So it's often more advantageous to play it after your terminal leaving you with 2 actions instead of the normal 1 from a village/terminal pair. Maybe reword it so you only get +1 action from the reaction part.

[Robz888]

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

That is a really nice way to realize it! Very cool. I think the card would actually be very strong with certain drawers. For example, imagine playing an Embassy and drawing this card (pretty likely since there are 9 to choose from): nearly guaranteed to go on to draw your entire deck if your deck composition is good.

You should call it "Hidden Village."

[pst]

This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

There are other uses as well. Any time your terminal action does things with the top of your deck you might want to play the terminal before this "Hidden Village", like with Chancellor, Bureaucrat, Navigator, Duchess, Treasure Map, Develop.

Another feature is that you give less information to the opponents when they have a choice. With Hidden Village + Envoy in your hand you start with the Envoy and opponents will have to guess if action cards will be dead for you.

Another reason to play your terminal action before HV is if your terminal action gains a card which puts itself or other cards at the top of your deck, like Nomad Camp or Mandarin, or any card if you show Watchtower.

Even if the gained card doesn't go on top of your deck it can be worthwhile to play the gainer first if your deck is empty so you'll reshuffle before you play Hidden Village, so once in a while that could be worthwhile with almost any gainer -- Workshop, Feast, Remodel, Thief, Smuggler, Mint, Expand, Forge, etc. etc.

There are lots of other small effects. Play Counting House before HV to gain Coppers before reshuffling. Play Menagerie before HV so as to now risk getting a double. Play

I'd say that in almost all kingdoms Hidden Village will be better than plain Village, and in some very much better (like with Embassy, Margrave, Torturer).

[Davio]

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

That is a really nice way to realize it! Very cool. I think the card would actually be very strong with certain drawers. For example, imagine playing an Embassy and drawing this card (pretty likely since there are 9 to choose from): nearly guaranteed to go on to draw your entire deck if your deck composition is good.

You should call it "Hidden Village."

It's genius, I love it! It's very much in tune with the other Village+'s.
We just have to get used to playing the Smithy first if this is in hand, which is different from the other Villages.

[AJD]

This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

The way it's worded now, I don't think it costs an action to use if you have 0 left. So it's often more advantageous to play it after your terminal leaving you with 2 actions instead of the normal 1 from a village/terminal pair.

How do you mean? I have one action; I play my Smithy, leaving me with 0 actions; I reveal Hidden Village (thanks, Robz888!) and play it, getting +1 action. There's no way for me end up with 2 actions remaining with this.

[AJD]

All right, pst; you've convinced me that this is interestingly different from regular Village! 

[jonts26]

This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

The way it's worded now, I don't think it costs an action to use if you have 0 left. So it's often more advantageous to play it after your terminal leaving you with 2 actions instead of the normal 1 from a village/terminal pair.

How do you mean? I have one action; I play my Smithy, leaving me with 0 actions; I reveal Hidden Village (thanks, Robz888!) and play it, getting +1 action. There's no way for me end up with 2 actions remaining with this.

Sorry, I misread the card text to say +1 card +2 actions so you're right, you only get one extra action to spend, just like a normal village. Though this does create a different small problem. If this is the only action in hand and you play it for +1 card/action and then draw a terminal drawer, you don't ever get the village benefit and it's just a pure cantrip. Also you sort of have to play this after your terminals.

I think the best way to word it would have the action part read +1 card +2 actions and the reaction part read +1 card +1 action. While a little wordier, it gives the player the choice of getting the village benefit whether or not you play it before or after your terminals, which should open up the strategy space just a touch.

[Axxle]

This is actually a fan card I've occasionally contemplated:

Probably-Not-Sufficiently-Different-from-Village Village
$4: Action-Reaction
+1 card
+1 action
----------
During your Action phase, if you have 0 actions remaining, you may reveal this from your hand and play it.

The only practical difference from regular Village is, you still get the extra action if you draw it off your Smithy, but you don't if you draw the Smithy off of it.

The way it's worded now, I don't think it costs an action to use if you have 0 left. So it's often more advantageous to play it after your terminal leaving you with 2 actions instead of the normal 1 from a village/terminal pair.

How do you mean? I have one action; I play my Smithy, leaving me with 0 actions; I reveal Hidden Village (thanks, Robz888!) and play it, getting +1 action. There's no way for me end up with 2 actions remaining with this.

Sorry, I misread the card text to say +1 card +2 actions so you're right, you only get one extra action to spend, just like a normal village. Though this does create a different small problem. If this is the only action in hand and you play it for +1 card/action and then draw a terminal drawer, you don't ever get the village benefit and it's just a pure cantrip. Also you sort of have to play this after your terminals.

I think the best way to word it would have the action part read +1 card +2 actions and the reaction part read +1 card +1 action. While a little wordier, it gives the player the choice of getting the village benefit whether or not you play it before or after your terminals, which should open up the strategy space just a touch.

It would make it slightly easier to use, but I think it's more interesting with the hoop you have to jump through.