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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $6 cards  (Read 26806 times)

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brian22

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 09:31:25 am »
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Maybe if, like KC vs TR, Remodel would be more forcing and Expand would be less restrictive...

I'm sorry, but are you sure that you looked at expand? I'm pretty sure it says "up to," like remodel, so I don't understand what you mean when you say it's so restricted.
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toaster

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 11:56:17 am »
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He's not saying that Expand is restricted...he's saying that Expand might compare more favorably to remodel if Remodel only worked for price increases of exactly 2.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 12:20:31 pm »
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And if you're Expanding a Gold into a Platinum, Mine would be even better and it costs $2 less!
And the card goes in your hand. You rarely want to expand gold to platinum unless you are going to be able to re-draw it, since otherwise you're missing a chance to play it.

It also expands peddlers and provinces into colonies. Some cards should always be considered within their box set.
Yeah, that's why Expand is the worst of the $7 bunch. It's basically only good in Colony games.
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Kahryl

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2012, 01:34:08 pm »
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He's not saying that Expand is restricted...he's saying that Expand might compare more favorably to remodel if Remodel only worked for price increases of exactly 2.

Remodel is already pretty niche when it comes to trash-for-benefits, I don't like the idea of weakening it more.

How about for Expand, add a clause to put the gained card into your hand?  So it's like a Mine that works on anything.  Too strong?
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dondon151

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2012, 01:39:07 pm »
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How about for Expand, add a clause to put the gained card into your hand?  So it's like a Mine that works on anything.  Too strong?

Gaining the card to your hand works for Mine because the only cards that can be improved are Treasures, but gaining Actions to your hand can cause some weird interactions.

Personal suggestion for improving Expand: add +2 cards.
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Kahryl

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2012, 01:44:25 pm »
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Oo. I like that more. Feels more thematic.
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O

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2012, 05:46:49 pm »
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I would rank expand above forge. The amount of times that Expand can create double-province turns, or salvage (ha) provinces late game from unpromising Province-5$-Expand-CC hands (for example) really can make it critical in endgame play. With forge you need some combination of either cursing or a +draw engine to get full use of it.

Expand is significantly, significantly, significantly better than remodel when starting estates are still around, simply because there is such a large gap in quality from the 4$ tier actions and the 5$ tier actions. Obviously this is mitigated  when you have a crappy tier of 5$ or you have caravan/tournament on the board.. but in the majority of cases the 1$ makes a significant enough difference that I would pass on Remodel.

Admittedly, both are extremely board dependent. If there's a quick low cost trasher (Steward, Remake, Masq., Chapel), neither is great, though expand is still better because of its ability to sneak by a province more easily.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2012, 06:02:03 pm »
+1

Expand is significantly, significantly, significantly better than remodel when starting estates are still around, simply because there is such a large gap in quality from the 4$ tier actions and the 5$ tier actions.
And there's an even bigger gap between the $4 cost of remodel and the $7 cost of expand...
Expand is definitely not a bad card to have -- I'd gladly take it if it turns up on a Jester -- but it's a card you rarely want to buy. The usual circumstance for buying it is begrudgingly when you hit $7 instead of $8. Forge, on the other hand, while you purchase it just as infrequently, is the kind of card you would at times happily purchase with $8+.
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O

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2012, 06:09:03 pm »
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Expand is significantly, significantly, significantly better than remodel when starting estates are still around, simply because there is such a large gap in quality from the 4$ tier actions and the 5$ tier actions.
And there's an even bigger gap between the $4 cost of remodel and the $7 cost of expand...
Expand is definitely not a bad card to have -- I'd gladly take it if it turns up on a Jester -- but it's a card you rarely want to buy. The usual circumstance for buying it is begrudgingly when you hit $7 instead of $8. Forge, on the other hand, while you purchase it just as


2nd edit.. wat.
Edit... Post didn't post my addendum..

But I'd rather take an Expand> forge in most normal games, and Expand over gold more frequently than Forge over gold. I think Expand is for BM games, forge +draw engines or heavy cursing.
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Robz888

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2012, 01:32:25 am »
+1

I will also come to the defense of Expand over Forge.

Forge is certainly more useful in the early game. I would rather have a Forge on Turn 3 than an Expand on Turn 3. But unless I've got Baron (or Mining Village, I guess? I'm sure there are others) to work with, odds are I'm not getting either card on Turn 3.

The later the game goes before you can actually get these cards, the more useful Expand seems (of the two). You want Forge to do heavy-duty trashing, but the mere fact that you want Forge probably means cheaper trashers weren't available. So by the time you actually get Forge, you've sort of missed the valuable trashing stage of the game. Not every time, of course, but Forge becomes pretty dependent on what it gets drawn with in a big deck.

Expand is also sort of random in what it gets drawn with (by the time you can afford it), but decidedly less so than Forge. You only need to draw Expand with one other good Expand target, whereas Forge needs at least two to be worth it in most cases. Also, I can see picking up Expand in a deck that already has good trashing as a means of snagging an extra Province or Duchy somewhere. Less so for Forge.

Ultimately, I would say that the $7 cost harms Forge much more than Expand, since Forge is a card for the early game, and Expand is a card for the mid-late game.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2012, 03:10:26 am »
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The difference between Remodel and Expand mainly is:

Estate => Remodel => Gold => Province
vs.
Estate => Power $5s => Province

This is just huge. And Copper => 3s is also MUCH stronger than Copper => 2s.

However, I like Forge more, basically because of the great feeling when you can forge a ton of junk cards into a single Gold at once (which is quite rare of course).

Which one's better I really can't say. Expand is useful more often, and Forge is more powerful if it's useful. It's quite close.
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2012, 06:26:31 am »
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The last list (:'() will be coming up soon...will it finally have a perfect score? I think both the first and the last card can have it...Last card probably won't because of Possession haters (I hate it too, but it is not Transmute bad), but I cannot imagine putting anything else than Familiar on the top...
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ycz6

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2012, 10:53:51 am »
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Really? I would be shocked if Alchemist didn't get any first-place votes, and Vineyards, Possession, Scrying Pool, and Golem could all snag a few too.
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2012, 11:57:19 am »
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The last list (:'() will be coming up soon...will it finally have a perfect score? I think both the first and the last card can have it...Last card probably won't because of Possession haters (I hate it too, but it is not Transmute bad), but I cannot imagine putting anything else than Familiar on the top...

I can't remember, but I might have actually put Philosopher's Stone as worse than Transmute.  I buy it less often, and lose with it more often.

Familiar is the obvious choice, but I bet someome is going to vote Alchemist, Possession, or Scrying Pool.  Alchemist and Possession because they're horribly overrated, Scrying Pool because it is really good and deserves to be in the conversation with Familiar.
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DrHades

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2012, 12:05:24 pm »
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Really? I would be shocked if Alchemist didn't get any first-place votes, and Vineyards, Possession, Scrying Pool, and Golem could all snag a few too.

Alchemist? Alchemist is in like 50% of games too slow. Vineyards are cool, but need some backup. Possession is a bad card. It is great on some boards (Scheme, KC), but it is bad. Golem makes nice things, but often isn't worth buing the Potion.

Scrying Pool might snag some first places...but I think Familiar is one of the 4 cards (with Transmute, Chapel and Adventurer) that at least had a chance to have a perfect score...

Familiar is the obvious choice, but I bet someome is going to vote Alchemist, Possession, or Scrying Pool.  Alchemist and Possession because they're horribly overrated, Scrying Pool because it is really good and deserves to be in the conversation with Familiar.

Agree with the final sentence, but I don't think anyone would put Alchemist or Possession to the top. I was horribly overrating Alchemist when I was level 10-ish, but even back then I knew Familiar is better...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2012, 12:17:08 pm »
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Vineyards, scrying pool, apothecary, and golem can all be better cards than familiar. And not on a negligible number of boards. Not that I'd say that any is better overall, but scrying pool and golem are actually decently close. Familiar is actually probably the worst curse-giver, just because it is so cost-prohibitive (if you're asking which one I want magically transported to my deck, it's either going to be familiar or witch).

chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2012, 05:19:13 pm »
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Vineyards, scrying pool, apothecary, and golem can all be better cards than familiar. And not on a negligible number of boards. Not that I'd say that any is better overall, but scrying pool and golem are actually decently close. Familiar is actually probably the worst curse-giver, just because it is so cost-prohibitive (if you're asking which one I want magically transported to my deck, it's either going to be familiar or witch).

I'd say that Young Witch is the worst curse-giver, personally; there are far more Young Witch boards where you can ignore cursing entirely than there are for any other curse-giver.  In fact I ignore it half the time, perhaps a smidge more than I should but also way more than any other curse-giver can approach. It's often entirely skippable with a good Bane or a good high-trashing engine, since the benefit-to-you is usually quite weak.  And unlike Hag (which has similar problems), the Curse doesn't hit immediately.  I do agree that it's quite often better than Familiar on the head-to-head, but I'd say that, in general, Familiar tends to force Curse games in a way that YW often doesn't. 

This is similar to my rationale for ranking Mountebank over Witch, of course, so YMMV.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 05:25:36 pm by chwhite »
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dan11295

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2012, 08:24:26 pm »
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I think Familiar is the best Potion card, just by being the only curse giver. As mentioned above, Possession is overrated and have seen many games where it is just ignored. With more very fast engines (i.e. JoAT) available it simply takes too long to get to be worthwhile.  That and good players know how to junk their deck to decrease its affectiveness. Golem also tend to be overrated. Sure its useful in clogged decks with one or two key cards you want to play, but many times it is just too slow. Not to mention there are some cards you do NOT want in a deck with a Golem (Trading Post is a prime example).
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Asklepios

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2012, 05:16:29 am »
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Re: Grand Market, I think its a difficult one to look at statistically, as the "trap" in it comes from continuing to buy it when you should be switching to Provinces or multi-buying other stuff rather than in buying it at all. Grand Market is almost always a better card than gold if you have the right $6 for it, but its not always a better card than the alternatives when you have $8+.

Thus if you were to look at win rates of including grand market or not, that wouldn't reflect its value or its best usage. It'd be an odd player who advocated completely rejecting Grand Market in all but the most extreme case kingdoms, but it'd also be a rare game where buying Grand Markets over Provinces until Grand Markets run out is a good idea.

Re: Farmland, I think this is a strong card that is often badly used. If Farmlands is in the Kingdom there's almost always at least one opportunity to make good use of it during a game. Its almost definitely not be a card you ever want to start buying with early $6 over gold, but in the mid to late game it becomes a real power card.
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brokoli

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2012, 05:47:18 am »
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Vineyards, scrying pool, apothecary, and golem can all be better cards than familiar. And not on a negligible number of boards. Not that I'd say that any is better overall, but scrying pool and golem are actually decently close. Familiar is actually probably the worst curse-giver, just because it is so cost-prohibitive (if you're asking which one I want magically transported to my deck, it's either going to be familiar or witch).

Golem ?
Ermů why ?
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PerdHapley

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2012, 08:23:53 pm »
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Vineyards, scrying pool, apothecary, and golem can all be better cards than familiar. And not on a negligible number of boards. Not that I'd say that any is better overall, but scrying pool and golem are actually decently close. Familiar is actually probably the worst curse-giver, just because it is so cost-prohibitive (if you're asking which one I want magically transported to my deck, it's either going to be familiar or witch).

Golem ?
Ermů why ?

Golem is an elite card in a lot of kingdoms - think of it as essentially a throne room that plays two action cards once each instead of one action card twice and always works (as long as you have the action cards in deck already when you use it, of course).

It's much different from familiar/scrying pool/alchemist/apothecary in that you almost never want to open potion when it's the only Alchemy card around, although certain cards might have something to say about that. Like Possession, it can be a trap card that is just not worth the effort due to it's difficult price, but there are a great many kingdoms in which it can be absolutely dominant.

That said, no way is it the best Potion card. But when it is worth it, it can be completely game changing, and I can totally see a newer player getting trounced by it and deciding that it's unbeatable.

Also, there are few simple combos more entertaining than Golem/Tunnel.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2012, 09:24:12 pm »
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To clarify, I was saying that all those cards CAN be better than familiar decently often. Overall, yeah, familiar is the best. Well, golem being close may be a little of a stretch, but when you want it, you want it about as much as you want familiar (when you want familiar). Somewhat less often though, probably.
And my larger point is that familiar is a lot more ignorable than a lot of people realize. Decently strong BM can deal with it.

MasterAir

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2012, 12:46:35 pm »
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And my larger point is that familiar is a lot more ignorable than a lot of people realize. Decently strong BM can deal with it.

I'm surprised by this, if the familiar player gets his familiar into the 3rd shuffle (I've seen how likely that is somewhere before, I think it's more often than not).  BM is swimming upstream, especially if there are any alternative VPs on the table.  I think you can only ignore familiar in the presence of other cursers or good trashing (steward or better).  If there are multiple potion cost cards on the table, you probably can't ever ignore familiar.

When it shines, I'd say scrying pool shines brightest of the potion cost cards.  Maybe that's just because it wins the time it takes to have a turn battle, clouding my judgement.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2012, 12:55:13 pm »
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And my larger point is that familiar is a lot more ignorable than a lot of people realize. Decently strong BM can deal with it.

I'm surprised by this, if the familiar player gets his familiar into the 3rd shuffle (I've seen how likely that is somewhere before, I think it's more often than not).  BM is swimming upstream, especially if there are any alternative VPs on the table.  I think you can only ignore familiar in the presence of other cursers or good trashing (steward or better).  If there are multiple potion cost cards on the table, you probably can't ever ignore familiar.

When it shines, I'd say scrying pool shines brightest of the potion cost cards.  Maybe that's just because it wins the time it takes to have a turn battle, clouding my judgement.
Well, there's about a 1/3 chance you miss that reshuffle, iirc, and if you do, you basically lose.
Otherwise, familiar generally has somewhat of an advantage, though depending on the particular BM you're playing, not an enormous one.

jotheonah

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2012, 08:17:59 pm »
+1

Bumping to ask whenever are the Potion cards coming? It's not as if it's a large set...
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