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Author Topic: Subscription pricing & structure  (Read 14014 times)

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-Stef-

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Subscription pricing & structure
« on: December 15, 2016, 07:54:54 am »
+25

We are selling two subscriptions, Silver and Gold.
When you buy Silver, you subscribe to Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity, Cornucopia, Hinterlands, Guilds.
Gold is Silver plus Alchemy, Dark Ages, Adventures, Empires.
You can play with the Base Set for free (2nd Edition).
If you have a subscription, you will be able to invite others to play with those cards; also when they don't have a subscription.

For every transaction you will have to pay a transaction fee of €0.35.
If you're buying from the EU, you will also have to pay VAT.
The percentage depends on the country you're buying from.

Subscriptions always start immediately, and you subscribe for at least one month.
On Jan 1st the Gold variant costs €0.10 per day, and Silver costs €0.07 per day.

We are not selling promo cards. On some future day we will use them for some promotional purpose, but we haven't found the time yet to define or program that purpose. Until that day, everyone buying any subscription can just play with them all.

If you "owned" any expansions on Making Fun, you will get a subscription to those expansions for free in 2017.

Upgrading
While the price for buying is very straightforward, the price for upgrading is a little more complicated.
The client will just show you the price when you're about to buy, but for the curious here is how it works under the hood:

We assigned a weight to all the expansions. We will subtract what you already had from the price.
Alchemy, Cornucopia and Guilds have a weight of 1.
Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity and Hinterlands have a weight of 2.
Dark Ages, Adventures and Empires have a weight of 3.
You are paying €0.005 per weight per day when buying Gold, €0.007 per weight per day when buying Silver.

Example
Suppose you had all sets on Making Fun, which was everything except for Empires. But you'd also want to play with Empires in 2017.
You purchase the Gold subscription and are only paying for the difference, which is 3 * €0.005 * 365 = €5.47.
Add the transaction fee of €0.35 and possibly VAT.

Example 2
Suppose you only bought Intrigue and Dark Ages on Making Fun, but want to have some more expansions and buy Silver for 2017.
Intrigue is subtracted from the weight, so you are paying for 8 out of 10. It will cost 8 * €0.007 * 365 = €20.44.
Add the transaction fee of €0.35 and possibly VAT.
The fact that you already were subscribed to Dark Ages has no influence on this price, because it's not part of what you're buying.
In 2017, you can play with all expansions from Silver plus Dark Ages.

Example 3
You have nothing from Making fun, but buy a Silver subscription for 50 days. However, after 10 days you realize you'd much rather play with all the expansions and you decide to buy Gold subscription for 50 days.
Under the hood you are buying 50 * 20 = 1000 weight-days, but you already owned 40 * 10 = 400 of those. You are paying for the remaining 600, which will cost you 600 * €0.005 = €3.00
Add the transaction fee of €0.35 and possibly VAT.
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SCSN

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2016, 07:57:49 am »
+25

Like I've been saying all these years, Silver and Gold are excellent purchases!
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2016, 08:01:38 am »
+6

For those who don't speak Euro, that's $3.15 a month for Gold plus the transaction fee of 36 cents each time you pay.

All of this is extremely reasonable and fair; I'm particularly happy that free play still exists and that you can play with friends. Thanks!
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2016, 08:06:10 am »
+2

For those who don't speak Euro, that's $3.15 a month for Gold plus the transaction fee of 36 cents each time you play.
I read it as this and nearly got a heart attack.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2016, 08:13:26 am »
+1

Which payment options will be supported? :D
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2016, 08:18:58 am »
0

Great news!
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2016, 08:19:15 am »
+7

"If you have a subscription, you will be able to invite others to play with those cards; also when they don't have a subscription. "

I think this is great news, thanks.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2016, 09:46:45 am »
0

If a new expansion comes out, do we have to make a new subscription to get that or is it included in "Gold"?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2016, 09:50:19 am »
+2

When a new expansion comes out, do we have to make a new subscription to get that or is it included in "Gold"?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2016, 10:02:08 am »
+1

If a new expansion comes out, do we have to make a new subscription to get that or is it included in "Gold"?

This example describes how to get the latest set if you have a subscription to everything but the latest set:

Example
Suppose you had all sets on Making Fun, which was everything except for Empires. But you'd also want to play with Empires in 2017.
You purchase the Gold subscription and are only paying for the difference, which is 3 * €0.005 * 365 = €5.47.
Add the transaction fee of €0.35 and possibly VAT.

(You get a subscription to the sets, not to the concept Gold)
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2016, 10:03:55 am »
0

Will you be able to pay in currencies other than euros (e.g. pounds or dollars)?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2016, 10:25:48 am »
+2

Will you be able to pay in currencies other than euros (e.g. pounds or dollars)?

How do these prices convert to Galleons, Sickles and Knuts?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2016, 10:33:30 am »
+1

Will you be able to pay in currencies other than euros (e.g. pounds or dollars)?

How do these prices convert to Galleons, Sickles and Knuts?
Mine was a serious question. At the checkout, will it tell you the cost is 10 euros, or will you get the choice of e.g. 10 euros, $10, or £9.50. Because credit card fee is like another 2% for me
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2016, 10:41:32 am »
0

For every transaction you will have to pay a transaction fee of €0.35.

Subscriptions always start immediately, and you subscribe for at least one month.
On Jan 1st the Gold variant costs €0.10 per day, and Silver costs €0.07 per day.

Will we be able to subscribe for, say, a year at a time to minimize transaction fees?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2016, 11:03:13 am »
+1

For every transaction you will have to pay a transaction fee of €0.35.

Subscriptions always start immediately, and you subscribe for at least one month.
On Jan 1st the Gold variant costs €0.10 per day, and Silver costs €0.07 per day.

Will we be able to subscribe for, say, a year at a time to minimize transaction fees?

That seems very heavily implied by the OP, yes.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2016, 11:08:08 am »
+4

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2016, 11:14:40 am »
0

For every transaction you will have to pay a transaction fee of €0.35.

Subscriptions always start immediately, and you subscribe for at least one month.
On Jan 1st the Gold variant costs €0.10 per day, and Silver costs €0.07 per day.

Will we be able to subscribe for, say, a year at a time to minimize transaction fees?

That seems very heavily implied by the OP, yes.
Seems to say yes you can pick as many days as you want. And the transaction fee encourages people to sign up for a year rather than a month, as you save €3.85/yr by doing 1 transaction instead of 12.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2016, 11:27:47 am »
0

Can we get prices in USD? Where are you guys based?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2016, 11:41:57 am »
0

Can we get prices in USD? Where are you guys based?

1 Euro is, as of today, 1.045 USD. So basically pretend all the prices are USD and add 5%.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2016, 11:54:55 am »
+1

When a new expansion is added, would it be possible reduce the remaining days of the gold subscription instead of paying the additional cost?
That way transaction costs for "micropayments" could be avoided.

Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense to pay for say 2018 already, if one always wants to have all cards - and is optimistic about future expansions.  ;)
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2016, 11:59:28 am »
+1

Put this in the "would be cool but I don't mind if it isn't possible" column: Your account has a balance of euros in it. You pay for whatever subscription you signed up for each day as long as your account has money in it.. If a new expansion comes out, you can add it to your subscription, and it will just drain your balance faster.

The main problem I see with this, is that you could have people insist on being able to cancel their subscription every day they don't use it, hence the money being spent automatically if it's available thing.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 12:00:37 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2016, 12:16:49 pm »
0

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere.

Originally you announced there would be two models: Subscription to play online against other players, and 1-off payments to "buy" the sets for offline play against AIs. Goko spend could be allocated to either buying the off-line product, or giving you free subscriptions for a period of time.

Has that plan changed? Is everything just a subscription now? Does the subscription get you the offline play with the AI?

Completely separate question:
Will I be able to play this on my iPhone in any way? (online or off? App or web? Magic?) (I still have an old app on my phone that lets me play AI only for the base set. Not available in the app store anymore, but sitting on my phone. I've gotten really really good at beating dumb AIs at the "First Game"...)

Thanks,

(And sorry if this has been explained somewhere else in the intervening time)
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2016, 12:20:02 pm »
0

Has that plan changed? Is everything just a subscription now? Does the subscription get you the offline play with the AI?

There haven't been any changes announced. Stef has said elsewhere that offline won't be available until later in 2017, so that pricing presumably won't be revealed until it is nearly available.

On January 1st 2017 we'll go live with our web version of Dominion Online. Our first priority now is to get that up & running smoothly. Once we have that in place we'll continue working on dedicated clients and Dominion Offline, but that certainly won't be released early in 2017.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 03:49:25 pm by JW »
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2016, 01:36:11 pm »
0

The main problem I see with this, is that you could have people insist on being able to cancel their subscription every day they don't use it, hence the money being spent automatically if it's available thing.
I think you could have a 30 days notice and it becomes clear that you can't just subscribe on a day to day basis.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2016, 01:51:51 pm »
+7

You really need USD prices, and not just here but on the client itself. Americans will take one look at those Euros and either think they can't subscribe since it's in Euros or will be confused since most Americans only think in terms of American currency. I hate to say this, but to some people displaying only Euros will be a turnoff.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2016, 01:56:32 pm »
+1

Can i get a copper subscription?
Or can i just play a soothsayer every month?

Am I right in assuming that people who only have base can matchmake against people with expansions?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 02:09:33 pm by Limetime »
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2016, 02:07:41 pm »
0

Probably the client will default to a currency supported in your location, or to a choice of major currencies (for Ozle, if they decide not to support the Tuvaluan Dollar)*.


*Yes, I know that the Tuvaluan Dollar is equivalent to the Australian Dollar but I'm trying to be amusing so bear with me.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2016, 02:26:12 pm »
+3

If you have a subscription, you will be able to invite others to play with those cards; also when they don't have a subscription.

This is the best news.  A lot of people will be made very happy by this.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2016, 02:26:36 pm »
0

Probably the client will default to a currency supported in your location, or to a choice of major currencies (for Ozle, if they decide not to support the Tuvaluan Dollar)*.


*Yes, I know that the Tuvaluan Dollar is equivalent to the Australian Dollar but I'm trying to be amusing so bear with me.

I miss Ozle :(
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2016, 02:28:44 pm »
0

Can we get prices in USD? Where are you guys based?

1 Euro is, as of today, 1.045 USD. So basically pretend all the prices are USD and add 5%.

Whoa, what happened to the euro?  A couple years ago it was like 1.3 USD...
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2016, 02:59:23 pm »
+1

QE, Greece, Brexit... and FOMC just raised the FFR yesterday. They actually expect 3 rate hikes next year... so we may be looking at EUR/USD parity in the new year.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2016, 03:09:08 pm »
0

QE, Greece, Brexit... and FOMC just raised the FFR yesterday. They actually expect 3 rate hikes next year... so we may be looking at EUR/USD parity in the new year.

Not if Trump has anything to say about it!
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2016, 03:57:11 pm »
+6

Alright, since no one has asked it yet, I'll be that guy...

When will I be able to purchase a Platinum subscription?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2016, 04:04:25 pm »
+1

Good thing Thief is gone so no one can steal your subscription.

EDIT: except for Noble Brigands, that is.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2016, 04:06:27 pm »
+4

So will there be a copper subscription allowing you only the removed Base and Intrigue cards that your subscription is turned into when you are hit by the Noble Brigand?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2016, 04:19:31 pm »
+1

Can we get prices in USD? Where are you guys based?

1 Euro is, as of today, 1.045 USD. So basically pretend all the prices are USD and add 5%.

So this might be the same thing that was asked about payment options; but will the prices be fixed in Euros, meaning that buying in USD one day might cost a little more or a little less than buying in USD a different day?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2016, 04:24:18 pm »
+5

Good thing Thief is gone so no one can steal your subscription.

EDIT: except for Noble Brigands, that is.

That's why we need a Platinum subscription.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2016, 05:01:17 pm »
+1

Good thing Thief is gone so no one can steal your subscription.

EDIT: except for Noble Brigands, that is.

That's why we need a Platinum subscription.

Bandit and Pirate Ship would still be able to trash it, though it would be protected from Knights, Giants, Rogues and Warriors.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2016, 05:02:41 pm »
0

Good thing Thief is gone so no one can steal your subscription.

EDIT: except for Noble Brigands, that is.

That's why we need a Platinum subscription.

Bandit and Pirate Ship would still be able to trash it, though it would be protected from Knights, Giants, Rogues and Warriors.

But they couldn't steal it, at least.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2016, 08:28:30 pm »
+4

Alright, since no one has asked it yet, I'll be that guy...

When will I be able to purchase a Platinum subscription?

You can become a platinum member here:
That reminds me of this awesome Dominion meme:

---
To read the rest of this post, you must become a DominionStrategy Platinum Member: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=50

schadd

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2016, 08:36:13 pm »
+1


Alright, since no one has asked it yet, I'll be that guy...

When will I be able to purchase a Platinum subscription?

You can become a platinum member here:
That reminds me of this awesome Dominion meme:

---
To read the rest of this post, you must become a DominionStrategy Platinum Member: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=50
it's actually, of course, found here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16679.msg661756
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2016, 10:25:18 pm »
+1

For those who don't speak Euro, that's $3.15 a month for Gold plus the transaction fee of 36 cents each time you pay.

All of this is extremely reasonable and fair; I'm particularly happy that free play still exists and that you can play with friends. Thanks!

For just a few seconds I misread pay as play.

Man was it terrifying.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2016, 06:30:12 am »
+5

Can i get a copper subscription?
Copper is free, so that would be the Base Set.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2016, 09:09:39 am »
0

I'm glad you decided to keep the Base set free after all, I suspect you'd have lost a lot of potential customers otherwise.

Will the system automatically calculate how much I will need to pay in 2017? I can't quite remember which sets I owned before I switched to the subscription system on MF. :P
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2016, 09:16:45 am »
+1

Will the system automatically calculate how much I will need to pay in 2017? I can't quite remember which sets I owned before I switched to the subscription system on MF. :P

Looks like it:


Upgrading
While the price for buying is very straightforward, the price for upgrading is a little more complicated.
The client will just show you the price when you're about to buy, but for the curious here is how it works under the hood:

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McGarnacle

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2016, 12:59:24 pm »
+4

Will you be able to pay in currencies other than euros (e.g. pounds or dollars)?

Nope, just $ and P.
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Joseph2302

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2016, 02:49:45 pm »
0

Will you be able to pay in currencies other than euros (e.g. pounds or dollars)?

Nope, just $ and P.
What's P? £?
I'm fine with being able to pay in $, as £ and $ don't cost be a transaction fee on my credit card
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2016, 02:58:31 pm »
+2

Will you be able to pay in currencies other than euros (e.g. pounds or dollars)?

Nope, just $ and P.
What's P? £?
I'm fine with being able to pay in $, as £ and $ don't cost be a transaction fee on my credit card

Let me explain the joke. P is Potion :)
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Wins: M87, M85, M92, M99, M107, RMM37, RMM39, RMM44, RMM45, BM24, M86, M94, M95, M100, ZM24
Losses: M88, M90, RMM38, NM8, NM9, M97, M106, RMM46, RMM48, ZM23, NM10, M115, M108
Draws: RMM40
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Mod/Co-mod: RMM37, M89, M93, M91, M96, RMM41, M98, M101, M102, M104, M105, M109

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2016, 04:39:41 pm »
0

Will you be able to pay in currencies other than euros (e.g. pounds or dollars)?

Nope, just $ and P.
What's P? £?
I'm fine with being able to pay in $, as £ and $ don't cost be a transaction fee on my credit card

Let me explain the joke. P is Potion :)

I posted from a chromebook with no f.ds extension.
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cyberkev63

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2016, 09:12:58 pm »
+1

Originally you announced there would be two models: Subscription to play online against other players, and 1-off payments to "buy" the sets for offline play against AIs. Goko spend could be allocated to either buying the off-line product, or giving you free subscriptions for a period of time.

Has that plan changed? Is everything just a subscription now? Does the subscription get you the offline play with the AI?

There haven't been any changes announced. Stef has said elsewhere that offline won't be available until later in 2017, so that pricing presumably won't be revealed until it is nearly available.

On January 1st 2017 we'll go live with our web version of Dominion Online. Our first priority now is to get that up & running smoothly. Once we have that in place we'll continue working on dedicated clients and Dominion Offline, but that certainly won't be released early in 2017.

Hmm, I'm still confused.  My understanding was that customers who had purchased sets from Goko/Making Fun could either get some free subscription time (which seems to be the one-year offer) OR they could get a copy of the Dominion Offline program (which now won't be released until probably later in 2017) to have forever.  If this is still the case, I, as someone who has purchased all the sets/cards, would be interested in getting the Dominion Offline program.  Does that mean I would pay for a Gold subscription as if I'm a new player in January and place my faith in the eventual release of the offline program so I could "cash-in" my "credit"; or, would I be doing something else?

NEVER MIND.  I did additional reading and found the answer to my question (bolded emphasis in the quote below added by me):

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16557.msg655927#msg655927

* We're going live on January 1st with Dominion Online. Dominion offline will go live "somewhere" in 2017.
* When Dominion Offline does go live, the group of people with the free subscription will get the option to transfer it to offline.
* The product will never be finished, neither online or offline. We will just continue developing full time in 2017.
  - online will be running in a browser after all. Updating it will go automatically.
  - offline you will be allowed to download the newest version for as long as we make them.
    Off course there will be no need to actually update, because you're not connecting to any other computers, but you might want to, because we probably added some features and fixed some bugs.
* You will be able to buy expansions for Dominion Offline.
* We will show the status of the online client with a couple of streamed games on december 10th.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 10:54:36 pm by cyberkev63 »
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David

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2016, 01:10:22 pm »
+1

Will you accept Bitcoin?  :)
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Kirian

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2016, 02:28:18 pm »
+1

Will you accept Bitcoin?  :)

No, but they'll accept Dogecoin.  So crypto!
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #52 on: December 25, 2016, 06:54:21 pm »
0

If you "owned" any expansions on Making Fun, you will get a subscription to those expansions for free in 2017.

I'm glad to hear that our purchases will be honored for 2017... But does this imply that this won't be the case past 2017?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2016, 07:50:57 pm »
0

If you "owned" any expansions on Making Fun, you will get a subscription to those expansions for free in 2017.

I'm glad to hear that our purchases will be honored for 2017... But does this imply that this won't be the case past 2017?
That's more or less correct.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2016, 11:57:43 am »
0

If you "owned" any expansions on Making Fun, you will get a subscription to those expansions for free in 2017.

I'm glad to hear that our purchases will be honored for 2017... But does this imply that this won't be the case past 2017?
That's more or less correct.

That's more or less completely terrible.
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Kirian

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2016, 02:15:07 pm »
+6

If you "owned" any expansions on Making Fun, you will get a subscription to those expansions for free in 2017.

I'm glad to hear that our purchases will be honored for 2017... But does this imply that this won't be the case past 2017?
That's more or less correct.

That's more or less completely terrible.

Man, they're giving you, essentially, 40 bucks.  I think that's pretty much the opposite of terrible, given they never saw any of the money that went to MF.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2016, 06:05:11 am »
0

If you "owned" any expansions on Making Fun, you will get a subscription to those expansions for free in 2017.

I'm glad to hear that our purchases will be honored for 2017... But does this imply that this won't be the case past 2017?
That's more or less correct.

That's more or less completely terrible.

Well, of course you are entitled to your opinion. If you had suffered through the current botched implementation from the start you might have a different view of things (I'm assuming that you are a relative new comer).

I for one am very happy to see the end of the misbegotten abomination that started as Goko Dominion and morphed into Making Fun Dominion. Although after years of development it had finally reached "playable" it never got anywhere near being a pleasure to play. I'm looking forward to the new version and if it is as good as I hope/expect I won't mind paying for it at all.

PS. The rights and wrongs of having to pay for a new implementation of Dominion if you want to keep playing Dominion Online after the year have been rehashed in several other threads - not saying you can't raise it again - just explaining why it may not generate much discussion.

Awaclus

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2016, 06:57:30 am »
+2

If you "owned" any expansions on Making Fun, you will get a subscription to those expansions for free in 2017.

I'm glad to hear that our purchases will be honored for 2017... But does this imply that this won't be the case past 2017?
That's more or less correct.

That's more or less completely terrible.

If you founded a new company with the idea of selling a product, would you hand out that product for free just because people paid an entirely different company for a similar product in the past? Because that's what Shuffle iT is basically doing right now, and what you're doing is complaining that they aren't handing out even more free stuff than they already are.
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blueblimp

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2016, 07:45:18 am »
+3

Well, it _is_ terrible that Goko/MF did not make it clear that they would no longer be able to provide the service once their license expired. ShuffleIT is obviously not at fault because of having nothing to do with that, but blaming Goko/MF seems fair to me.

(Personally, I bought into Goko with the expectation that it might go out of business in a year or two, so by making it all the way to license expiry, it exceeded that bar.)
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2016, 08:13:17 am »
+1

Well, it _is_ terrible that Goko/MF did not make it clear that they would no longer be able to provide the service once their license expired. ShuffleIT is obviously not at fault because of having nothing to do with that, but blaming Goko/MF seems fair to me.

(Personally, I bought into Goko with the expectation that it might go out of business in a year or two, so by making it all the way to license expiry, it exceeded that bar.)

They did write that, though. It's not their fault nobody reads their Terms of Use (or any other), ever.
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Chris is me

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2016, 10:41:09 am »
+1

I understand the frustrations of people just learning they invested in a product that is about to disappear.

Here is what I would suggest:

1. Enjoy your year of free Dominion (or like 30 cents a month Dominion if you upgrade to Empires)

2. If after a year you don't think the new Dominion is so much better, it's worth paying $3 a month for, then don't do that.

I think after a few weeks with the new client, seeing the speed of development, the array of new features, and the responsive support, you'll understand the benefits of a more sustainable business model for the developers.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2016, 09:12:17 pm »
+1

Oh wow, it is so nice to hear that these two are making a new online dominion service. Maybe I should take up the hobby again.
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Awaclus

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2016, 03:57:58 am »
+1

Oh wow, it is so nice to hear that these two are making a new online dominion service. Maybe I should take up the hobby again.

You totally should! It's nice to see you again.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2016, 09:28:00 am »
+3

Oh wow, it is so nice to hear that these two are making a new online dominion service. Maybe I should take up the hobby again.

Well you *do* need a hobby...
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2016, 11:31:27 am »
+3

Oh wow, it is so nice to hear that these two are making a new online dominion service. Maybe I should take up the hobby again.

Well you *do* need a hobby...

Are you suggesting I give cookie clicker another chance?
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werothegreat

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2016, 11:49:51 am »
0

Oh wow, it is so nice to hear that these two are making a new online dominion service. Maybe I should take up the hobby again.

Well you *do* need a hobby...

Are you suggesting I give cookie clicker another chance?

Not until orteil puts out another update.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2016, 11:59:40 am »
0

Oh wow, it is so nice to hear that these two are making a new online dominion service. Maybe I should take up the hobby again.

Well you *do* need a hobby...

Are you suggesting I give cookie clicker another chance?

Actually, I believe the new online Dominion service is going to be Dominion Clicker.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2016, 12:04:32 pm »
0

Oh wow, it is so nice to hear that these two are making a new online dominion service. Maybe I should take up the hobby again.

Well you *do* need a hobby...

Are you suggesting I give cookie clicker another chance?

Actually, I believe the new online Dominion service is going to be Dominion Clicker.

Online Dominion has been Dominion Clicker since Goko. The new version is just kind of like an upgrade that does some of the clicking for you.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2016, 12:05:03 pm »
0

Every time you click on Scout you get 7 quintillion Zaps.

SirPeebles

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2016, 12:09:02 pm »
+1

Every time you click on Scout you get 7 quintillion Zaps.

Still not worth it.
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Awaclus

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2016, 12:11:56 pm »
+1

Scout

What's that? Do you mean Scouting Party?
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Thera

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2016, 03:03:20 pm »
+1

Providing pricing in the end users currency would be good - I'm personally unhappy about the pricing model as it becomes _so expensive_ (I'm In Australia, with current exchange rate the $3 a month price actually equals almost $5 a month AUD so over $50 a year)

Considering the pricings for other countries (there are a LOT of other nationalities playing then just europe) and how that compares to their home currency / average incomes etc would be a good idea.

I can _deal_ with $50 a year, but I'd be concerned about countries who don't have amazing exhange rates with the euro who also have a lower average annual income, this would be effectively excluding them from playing.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2016, 04:12:43 pm »
+2

Providing pricing in the end users currency would be good - I'm personally unhappy about the pricing model as it becomes _so expensive_ (I'm In Australia, with current exchange rate the $3 a month price actually equals almost $5 a month AUD so over $50 a year)

Considering the pricings for other countries (there are a LOT of other nationalities playing then just europe) and how that compares to their home currency / average incomes etc would be a good idea.

I can _deal_ with $50 a year, but I'd be concerned about countries who don't have amazing exhange rates with the euro who also have a lower average annual income, this would be effectively excluding them from playing.

I... have never heard of a company doing this.  It would be a good way of losing money, I guess?
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qalnor

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2016, 04:34:37 pm »
0

If you "owned" any expansions on Making Fun, you will get a subscription to those expansions for free in 2017.

I'm glad to hear that our purchases will be honored for 2017... But does this imply that this won't be the case past 2017?
That's more or less correct.

That's more or less completely terrible.

Well, of course you are entitled to your opinion. If you had suffered through the current botched implementation from the start you might have a different view of things (I'm assuming that you are a relative new comer).

I for one am very happy to see the end of the misbegotten abomination that started as Goko Dominion and morphed into Making Fun Dominion. Although after years of development it had finally reached "playable" it never got anywhere near being a pleasure to play. I'm looking forward to the new version and if it is as good as I hope/expect I won't mind paying for it at all.

PS. The rights and wrongs of having to pay for a new implementation of Dominion if you want to keep playing Dominion Online after the year have been rehashed in several other threads - not saying you can't raise it again - just explaining why it may not generate much discussion.

I've been playing since somewhere around 10/2014. I haven't been around since the beginning, obviously, but I wouldn't call myself a newcomer either.

I'm not really sure, though, why the money I spent on buying a flawed product means that when the company who relicenses the product gets to sell it to me a second time without letting me continue to use the old product. I can see a few valid arguments if they want to push me towards buying in on their new game:

- Don't let me have anything in the new game, but let me continue to play on the old version.
- Let me play with the old cards on the new version, but completely block me from using new cards if I don't buy a full subscription

But the idea of licensing a company to sell a product and then taking that product away with a gesture isn't really what I would consider fair play.
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blueblimp

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2016, 05:50:57 pm »
+3

Providing pricing in the end users currency would be good - I'm personally unhappy about the pricing model as it becomes _so expensive_ (I'm In Australia, with current exchange rate the $3 a month price actually equals almost $5 a month AUD so over $50 a year)

Considering the pricings for other countries (there are a LOT of other nationalities playing then just europe) and how that compares to their home currency / average incomes etc would be a good idea.

I can _deal_ with $50 a year, but I'd be concerned about countries who don't have amazing exhange rates with the euro who also have a lower average annual income, this would be effectively excluding them from playing.

I... have never heard of a company doing this.  It would be a good way of losing money, I guess?
I think it's pretty normal to sell digital goods & services for different prices depending on region. The reason you do it is that the profit-maximizing price may be different depending on region, such as because of different price sensitivity. ($3/month may not sound expensive in the US/EU/etc., but it may be pretty expensive in developing countries.)

You can do this without losing money because not all of the $3/month is used to pay server costs. Making up numbers, imagine that $0.10/month goes to server upkeep and the remaining $2.90/month is used to pay for continuing development (and kept as profit if that cost is met). Then you can price anywhere up of $0.10/month without losing money on the servers, and you just need to make sure that over your entire userbase (which includes all regions, not just the poor ones), you make enough to pay for development.
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qalnor

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2017, 09:09:10 am »
+1

Providing pricing in the end users currency would be good - I'm personally unhappy about the pricing model as it becomes _so expensive_ (I'm In Australia, with current exchange rate the $3 a month price actually equals almost $5 a month AUD so over $50 a year)

Considering the pricings for other countries (there are a LOT of other nationalities playing then just europe) and how that compares to their home currency / average incomes etc would be a good idea.

I can _deal_ with $50 a year, but I'd be concerned about countries who don't have amazing exhange rates with the euro who also have a lower average annual income, this would be effectively excluding them from playing.

I... have never heard of a company doing this.  It would be a good way of losing money, I guess?
I think it's pretty normal to sell digital goods & services for different prices depending on region. The reason you do it is that the profit-maximizing price may be different depending on region, such as because of different price sensitivity. ($3/month may not sound expensive in the US/EU/etc., but it may be pretty expensive in developing countries.)

You can do this without losing money because not all of the $3/month is used to pay server costs. Making up numbers, imagine that $0.10/month goes to server upkeep and the remaining $2.90/month is used to pay for continuing development (and kept as profit if that cost is met). Then you can price anywhere up of $0.10/month without losing money on the servers, and you just need to make sure that over your entire userbase (which includes all regions, not just the poor ones), you make enough to pay for development.

I'd go further than that. The server costs might be $.10 per person per month, but the additional cost of adding a user to the server is likely much less than $.10 a month, so even if someone in a developing nation is only paying something over that cost there's the  possibility of profit.

That said, I don't know what the contract specifies, there may be a flat per-set/user royalty rather than a % of earnings. That would tend to make sense to me unless the money involved here is large enough to make the cost of annual financial audits a minor expense -- so there may be a cost per-user that doesn't fit into pure financial logic.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2017, 03:03:22 pm »
+1


I've been playing since somewhere around 10/2014. I haven't been around since the beginning, obviously, but I wouldn't call myself a newcomer either.

I'm not really sure, though, why the money I spent on buying a flawed product means that when the company who relicenses the product gets to sell it to me a second time without letting me continue to use the old product. I can see a few valid arguments if they want to push me towards buying in on their new game:

- Don't let me have anything in the new game, but let me continue to play on the old version.
- Let me play with the old cards on the new version, but completely block me from using new cards if I don't buy a full subscription

But the idea of licensing a company to sell a product and then taking that product away with a gesture isn't really what I would consider fair play.
Making fun had only a limited license, period. They pretended that wasn't the case but it was clear from the beginning that they cannot actually promise to offer anything beyond that date. They didn't make it clear when selling you your product, but as a matter of fact you didn't buy lifetime rights to use that cards. They just pretended that would be the case.
It was not "taking away a license with a gesture" but rather "Using their legitimate right to not extend an expiring license at an agreed expiration date due to customer unfriendly policies of the other party".
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2017, 08:44:12 am »
+3

Providing pricing in the end users currency would be good - I'm personally unhappy about the pricing model as it becomes _so expensive_ (I'm In Australia, with current exchange rate the $3 a month price actually equals almost $5 a month AUD so over $50 a year)

Considering the pricings for other countries (there are a LOT of other nationalities playing then just europe) and how that compares to their home currency / average incomes etc would be a good idea.

I can _deal_ with $50 a year, but I'd be concerned about countries who don't have amazing exhange rates with the euro who also have a lower average annual income, this would be effectively excluding them from playing.

Why is is that so many Australians do not understand currency???

The minimum age in Australia is $17.70 per hour (UK£10.27.  In the UK is is £6.70 per hour (equivalent to AU$11.45).

UK average annual income is £26,500 = AU$45,050
Australian average annual income is A$81,947 = UK£47,529

Exchange rates from XE.com, average incomes from Google.


20m Australians, but do any of them understand that because their dollar buys fewer pounds than the dollars they exchange that they are not worse off?

Given their higher minimum wage, and higher average earnings, Australians should be paying more to play Dominion!!!
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2017, 09:29:49 am »
0

Ok, I play with my three boys, we paid our dues and now play for free.

I have all the expansions, they do not.
So if we continue to play, I pay .30 per month and they pay $10 a month
That is $30 x 12 or $360 per year?????

COME ON NOW!!!!!!  How can that be worth it? 
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2017, 10:06:03 am »
+3

You can still share your expansions with people at your table.

I don't see where you're getting $10 from, a gold subscription (which includes all expansions) is about $3 a month.
Also note that you will get a free subscription to all the expansions you had on MF for a year (unless you only got them there after they changed to a subscription system). You should be receiving an email on how to get this once we have resolved ur issues with sending emails.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2017, 03:23:05 pm »
+1

Ok, I play with my three boys, we paid our dues and now play for free.

I have all the expansions, they do not.

Even though Watno already said this, I want to make sure everyone sees this:

If you subscribe to N expansions, people playing against you can also play with those expansions, even if they aren't subscribers.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2017, 03:40:56 pm »
0

Australians should be paying more to play Dominion!!!

Shh. We just want to be noticed.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2017, 06:59:58 pm »
0

So, We have two with multiple expansions, three without (wife)  (I saw a 10 euro price somewhere)

What is the cost for me to play with my wife and three sons?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2017, 07:10:29 pm »
0

So, We have two with multiple expansions, three without (wife)  (I saw a 10 euro price somewhere)

What is the cost for me to play with my wife and three sons?

Nothing in 2017 (to play with the expansions you already have) and 3€/month (to play with the expansions that currently exist) after that.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2017, 07:47:01 pm »
0

So, We have two with multiple expansions, three without (wife)  (I saw a 10 euro price somewhere)

What is the cost for me to play with my wife and three sons?

Nothing in 2017 (to play with the expansions you already have) and 3€/month (to play with the expansions that currently exist) after that.

And another 30 cents (eurocents?) a month to get Empires.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2017, 06:47:34 am »
0

So, We have two with multiple expansions, three without (wife)  (I saw a 10 euro price somewhere)

What is the cost for me to play with my wife and three sons?

You can see the exact prizes by logging into the game and going to the Store tab, or use the information in the opening post of this thread to calculate them.
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Mypaltheelf

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2017, 01:23:43 pm »
0

So, We have two with multiple expansions, three without (wife)  (I saw a 10 euro price somewhere)

What is the cost for me to play with my wife and three sons?

Nothing in 2017 (to play with the expansions you already have) and 3€/month (to play with the expansions that currently exist) after that.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WHAT DO I PAY FOR MY WIFE, SON 1, SON2, SON 3??????  WHO JUST HAVE THE BASIC SET?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2017, 01:25:08 pm »
+2

So, We have two with multiple expansions, three without (wife)  (I saw a 10 euro price somewhere)

What is the cost for me to play with my wife and three sons?

Nothing in 2017 (to play with the expansions you already have) and 3€/month (to play with the expansions that currently exist) after that.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WHAT DO I PAY FOR MY WIFE, SON 1, SON2, SON 3??????  WHO JUST HAVE THE BASIC SET?

NOTHING AS LONG AS YOU ARE SUBSCRIBED TO THE EXPANSIONS THAT YOU ALL WANT TO PLAY WITH AND YOU ARE PLAYING IN ALL OF THE GAMES!!!!!!!
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2017, 01:25:31 pm »
+1

So, We have two with multiple expansions, three without (wife)  (I saw a 10 euro price somewhere)

What is the cost for me to play with my wife and three sons?

Nothing in 2017 (to play with the expansions you already have) and 3€/month (to play with the expansions that currently exist) after that.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WHAT DO I PAY FOR MY WIFE, SON 1, SON2, SON 3??????  WHO JUST HAVE THE BASIC SET?

Nothing, dude! You pay nothing! As long as you host the games, they can use your cards!
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Mypaltheelf

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2017, 03:56:00 pm »
0

So, what does my son pay, what does my wife pay? Also nothing?
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2017, 03:57:26 pm »
0

So, what does my son pay, what does my wife pay? Also nothing?

If the person who pays to have all the expansions hosts the table, anyone on that table can play with all the cards for free.
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Awaclus

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2017, 04:09:40 pm »
+3

So, what does my son pay, what does my wife pay? Also nothing?

2017:
You pay: nothing (or 0.30€/month if you want Empires)
Your sons and your wife pay: nothing

2018+:
You pay: 3€/month
Your sons and your wife pay: nothing

But you have to host all the games.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 04:10:50 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2017, 05:09:22 pm »
0

Man, they're giving you, essentially, 40 bucks.  I think that's pretty much the opposite of terrible, given they never saw any of the money that went to MF.

Sure, they didn't but Jay and Donald hopefully did (unless MF/Goko screwed them over totally). Didn't Donald say that earlier purchases would be honored? They could just say to ShuffleIT, "we won't demand royalties on the expansions people already paid for in earlier incarnations of Dominion Online".

I don't play nearly enough to justify a subscription cost. I would pay the price of, say, a good full price Steam game, for a new implementation of Dominion. But it sucks to have to pay for the licenses all over again.

This business model is screaming "casual players not wanted!". Apropos steam games, my library of little-played/unplayed steam games suggests that casual-hostile pricing policies may not be the best policy.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2017, 05:26:00 pm »
0

Man, they're giving you, essentially, 40 bucks.  I think that's pretty much the opposite of terrible, given they never saw any of the money that went to MF.

Sure, they didn't but Jay and Donald hopefully did (unless MF/Goko screwed them over totally). Didn't Donald say that earlier purchases would be honored? They could just say to ShuffleIT, "we won't demand royalties on the expansions people already paid for in earlier incarnations of Dominion Online".

I don't play nearly enough to justify a subscription cost. I would pay the price of, say, a good full price Steam game, for a new implementation of Dominion. But it sucks to have to pay for the licenses all over again.

This business model is screaming "casual players not wanted!". Apropos steam games, my library of little-played/unplayed steam games suggests that casual-hostile pricing policies may not be the best policy.

I agree with this. I play sometimes, but it is a lot to spend if I play rarely.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2017, 05:47:06 pm »
0

(unless MF/Goko screwed them over totally)

That did kind of happen.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2017, 06:39:34 pm »
+9

Man, they're giving you, essentially, 40 bucks.  I think that's pretty much the opposite of terrible, given they never saw any of the money that went to MF.

Sure, they didn't but Jay and Donald hopefully did (unless MF/Goko screwed them over totally). Didn't Donald say that earlier purchases would be honored? They could just say to ShuffleIT, "we won't demand royalties on the expansions people already paid for in earlier incarnations of Dominion Online".

I don't play nearly enough to justify a subscription cost. I would pay the price of, say, a good full price Steam game, for a new implementation of Dominion. But it sucks to have to pay for the licenses all over again.

This business model is screaming "casual players not wanted!". Apropos steam games, my library of little-played/unplayed steam games suggests that casual-hostile pricing policies may not be the best policy.

I agree with this. I play sometimes, but it is a lot to spend if I play rarely.

I'm very confused by this. Buying it outright is expensive if you only play rarely. Subscription is much cheaper if you only play rarely. You can pay a dollar and then play all you want for the next week. If you wanted to do that on MF, the exact same playtime would have cost you $80. subscription is only more expensive if you play a lot; like every month for 3 years.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2017, 11:47:36 pm »
0

Man, they're giving you, essentially, 40 bucks.  I think that's pretty much the opposite of terrible, given they never saw any of the money that went to MF.

Sure, they didn't but Jay and Donald hopefully did (unless MF/Goko screwed them over totally).

My understanding is that at least half the reason for the switch is that Jay and Donald saw almost no income from Goko and MF.  Yeah, they got royally screwed.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #97 on: July 27, 2017, 11:49:05 pm »
+1

Alright, since no one has asked it yet, I'll be that guy...

When will I be able to purchase a Platinum subscription?
Potion subscription is where it's it, but that's only good for a few cards!
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #98 on: October 05, 2017, 08:00:07 am »
0

Alright, since no one has asked it yet, I'll be that guy...

When will I be able to purchase a Platinum subscription?
Potion subscription is where it's it, but that's only good for a few cards!

Yeah but if those potion cards appear in a game and you didn't get potion subscription, you can't buy them and are screwed!
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #99 on: October 05, 2017, 08:53:25 am »
+1

Man, they're giving you, essentially, 40 bucks.  I think that's pretty much the opposite of terrible, given they never saw any of the money that went to MF.

Sure, they didn't but Jay and Donald hopefully did (unless MF/Goko screwed them over totally). Didn't Donald say that earlier purchases would be honored? They could just say to ShuffleIT, "we won't demand royalties on the expansions people already paid for in earlier incarnations of Dominion Online".

I don't play nearly enough to justify a subscription cost. I would pay the price of, say, a good full price Steam game, for a new implementation of Dominion. But it sucks to have to pay for the licenses all over again.

This business model is screaming "casual players not wanted!". Apropos steam games, my library of little-played/unplayed steam games suggests that casual-hostile pricing policies may not be the best policy.

I agree with this. I play sometimes, but it is a lot to spend if I play rarely.

I think what misleads people about this is that the term subscription implies a recurring fee. It doesn’t actually recur here! You are actually only paying for fixed blocks of time, and you have to opt in to paying again. This is what makes it cheaper.

Say you get into Dominion for a week every 3 months. You can pay roughly $2 for access to all the cards for a week or so (the pricing includes a fixed transaction fee, so that you are slightly incentivized to pay for more at once, but ignore that for a bit). That would be like, $8 a year. Compared to the $48 cost of Dominion on Goko, and especially compared to the $100 cost on MF, you need to play for six years (or twelve years!) at that rate for it to cost you more. You spend more on a single take out meal than you’d spend on Dominion all year this way.

And you don’t even have to plan how often you get into Dominion and do this on some schedule - all you have to know at the time of purchase is how long you want to pay for, until you either lose interest or are willing to pay the small transaction fee again to extend. You can be as conservative as you wish.

The only way this ends up costing you more (as a new player, compared to Goko and MF) is if you play for more than 1.5/3 consecutive years. At which point, you’re supporting an online service, that sort of makes sense.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #100 on: October 05, 2017, 09:36:19 am »
+1

I don’t believe you can buy less than a month at a time.
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Re: Subscription pricing & structure
« Reply #101 on: October 05, 2017, 11:51:34 am »
+3

I don’t believe you can buy less than a month at a time.

I just attempted to pay for a week and the system was happy to let me do it.

There's a 35 Eurocent transaction fee which almost doubles the price of a week, though.
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