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Author Topic: Summon & Villa  (Read 4271 times)

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Joseph2302

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Summon & Villa
« on: December 12, 2016, 02:23:11 pm »
0

Am I correct in thinking if you summon a villa, it doesn't get set aside?

This is how the steps happen, can you confirm this is correct?

  • Player buys the event Summon
  • Player chooses Villa as the action card costing up to $4
  • Player gains Villa
  • As player gains villa, the on gain effect of Villa happens, so it goes into hand and isn't set aside
  • Summon tries to set aside the Villa but can't (lose track rule)
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2016, 02:40:20 pm »
+2

Yes.  However, Nomad Camp can be properly Summoned.
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2016, 08:42:44 pm »
0

Yes.  However, Nomad Camp can be properly Summoned.
Please explain. I still don't get how nomad camp is the exception in every lose track question ever.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2016, 12:46:43 am »
0

Yes.  However, Nomad Camp can be properly Summoned.
Please explain. I still don't get how nomad camp is the exception in every lose track question ever.

Nomad Camp is gained directly to your draw pile. It does not go to your discard pile, and then get moved to your draw pile. This is despite the literal wording on the card suggesting otherwise; it's a rare case of a Dominion card behaving differently than the card wording suggests.
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2016, 04:58:20 pm »
+7

Nomad Camp is gained directly to your draw pile. It does not go to your discard pile, and then get moved to your draw pile. This is despite the literal wording on the card suggesting otherwise; it's a rare case of a Dominion card behaving differently than the card wording suggests.
The improved-layout-etc. version of Hinterlands is out; Nomad Camp now says:

Nomad Camp: Action, $4
+1 Buy
+$2
----------
This is gained onto your deck (instead of to your discard pile).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2016, 05:05:26 pm »
0

Nomad Camp is gained directly to your draw pile. It does not go to your discard pile, and then get moved to your draw pile. This is despite the literal wording on the card suggesting otherwise; it's a rare case of a Dominion card behaving differently than the card wording suggests.
The improved-layout-etc. version of Hinterlands is out; Nomad Camp now says:

Nomad Camp: Action, $4
+1 Buy
+$2
----------
This is gained onto your deck (instead of to your discard pile).

Woo! Is there a place where we can see all updated wordings; if there are any other meaningful changes? (I know there's no functional changes; just clarity stuff).
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2016, 05:07:00 pm »
+1

A sorta-rules question; when lose track first started mattering for stuff (Summon is a great example); with Nomad Camp having the "on-gain" wording; what was the reason for saying that Nomad Camp doesn't visit and that the wording was just unclear, rather than ruling that Nomad Camp does visit and stick with the wording as it was?
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2016, 05:33:27 pm »
0

Nomad Camp is gained directly to your draw pile. It does not go to your discard pile, and then get moved to your draw pile. This is despite the literal wording on the card suggesting otherwise; it's a rare case of a Dominion card behaving differently than the card wording suggests.
The improved-layout-etc. version of Hinterlands is out; Nomad Camp now says:

Nomad Camp: Action, $4
+1 Buy
+$2
----------
This is gained onto your deck (instead of to your discard pile).

Woo! Is there a place where we can see all updated wordings; if there are any other meaningful changes? (I know there's no functional changes; just clarity stuff).

They'll be on the new client.  I'm debating whether or not to start using card images from the client for the wiki, since I have no plans to re-buy all the other sets just to get updated card images.
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Donald X.

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2016, 06:15:32 pm »
+2

Woo! Is there a place where we can see all updated wordings; if there are any other meaningful changes? (I know there's no functional changes; just clarity stuff).
...new copies of Hinterlands? I don't know of a site with scans.

The only one I can think of that might be interesting is Scheme. It just shifts the timing of the decision, from the start of clean-up to when the card is discarded.

Scheme: Action, $3
+1 Card
+1 Action
This turn, you may put one of your Action cards onto your deck when you discard it from play.
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Donald X.

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2016, 06:16:34 pm »
0

They'll be on the new client.  I'm debating whether or not to start using card images from the client for the wiki, since I have no plans to re-buy all the other sets just to get updated card images.
I do not believe they are using real images in the new online version. Which is to say, they have redone the text layout.
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Donald X.

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2016, 06:19:04 pm »
+2

A sorta-rules question; when lose track first started mattering for stuff (Summon is a great example); with Nomad Camp having the "on-gain" wording; what was the reason for saying that Nomad Camp doesn't visit and that the wording was just unclear, rather than ruling that Nomad Camp does visit and stick with the wording as it was?
The FAQ probably said (my file, not checking the physical rulebook): "Nomad Camp: When you gain this card, it goes on top of your deck rather than into your discard pile. This is true whether you gained it due to buying it, or gained it some other way. If there were no cards in your deck, it becomes the only card in your deck." So I mean, it doesn't visit, it's right there in the rulebook (if it is).

Why did the FAQ say that? Because I was sure no-one would ever put Nomad Camp into their discard pile and them move it onto their deck. Why didn't Nomad Camp have a better phrasing? I lacked that technology at the time.
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Jeebus

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2016, 11:51:37 am »
0

The improved-layout-etc. version of Hinterlands is out; Nomad Camp now says:

Nomad Camp: Action, $4
+1 Buy
+$2
----------
This is gained onto your deck (instead of to your discard pile).

A very good idea to drop "when you gain this"; I didn't think about that. That eliminates the issue of the timing not being completely accurate.
I think having the last part in parenthesis implies that it's more of a clarification than a rule (see Inn)? In that case it would actually be more accurate without the parenthesis, because that would state categorically that it's overridden by Transmogrify and Artisan.

The only one I can think of that might be interesting is Scheme. It just shifts the timing of the decision, from the start of clean-up to when the card is discarded.

Scheme: Action, $3
+1 Card
+1 Action
This turn, you may put one of your Action cards onto your deck when you discard it from play.

I always assumed there was a reason for the decision being at the start of clean-up, having to do with some interaction. But I never tried to figure out what it could be. I guess there was no such reason. (I expect the online client to implement Scheme the old way, or you'd have to click topdeck or not for each card.)

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2016, 12:10:40 pm »
0

I have tried asking about this before... Will the new online Dominion constitute an official publishing of the new card versions? This would mean that all cards that change functionally, will officially change on January 1, and there will be no more of this "in-between" state where some cards function in an old way and some in a new way. And if the answer is no, well then that will be confusing for some cards, being different online and "officially".

And would it be possible to provide all the new card texts that have been provided to ShuffleIT? That way we can use them to update wikis and rules documents.

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2016, 12:29:10 pm »
+1

I have tried asking about this before... Will the new online Dominion constitute an official publishing of the new card versions? This would mean that all cards that change functionally, will officially change on January 1, and there will be no more of this "in-between" state where some cards function in an old way and some in a new way. And if the answer is no, well then that will be confusing for some cards, being different online and "officially".

And would it be possible to provide all the new card texts that have been provided to ShuffleIT? That way we can use them to update wikis and rules documents.

I think Donald's answer about the new Possession works just fine for this. "Official" doesn't mean a lot in Dominion; it only matters in a tournament, and in a tournament, the tournament organizer will be in charge of deciding which set of cards to use, and which rules set. At home, you can play with the old wordings or new as you see fit. And most casual players will just play with the wordings on the edition they own.
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2016, 02:39:30 pm »
0

I think Donald's answer about the new Possession works just fine for this. "Official" doesn't mean a lot in Dominion; it only matters in a tournament, and in a tournament, the tournament organizer will be in charge of deciding which set of cards to use, and which rules set. At home, you can play with the old wordings or new as you see fit. And most casual players will just play with the wordings on the edition they own.

Can you point me to the answer about Possession?

I should have included the usual disclaimer that I was not talking about casual play I guess.

What's official matters in:
-Tournaments
-Online implementation
-Documentation of the rules (wikis, documents, online faqs etc)
-(The however-small percentage of people who care to play according to the latest rulings)

Donald has stated several times that there actually are official card rules. The ones that are not published yet are not official and should not be followed (in whatever setting where one would want to play by the official rules), according to Donald. He has said that any rules overview should not include unofficial/unpublished card versions. That's why I'm asking this.

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2016, 02:59:15 pm »
0

Turns out the post I was thinking of wasn't actually Donald.

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?

What is the purpose of this question? I mean, if you want to use the new rules for Possession IRL, go ahead and do it. I doubt Donald will come out and say "Don't you dare use the errata IRL before MF implemented them!"

And "as soon as MF implements it" probably equals never.

I do know that Donald has said that when it comes to whether or not old Masquerade cards would continue to function as they had previously, it would be up to a tournament organizer, and that if he were running a tournament, he would use second edition cards.
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2016, 05:09:38 pm »
+1

I think having the last part in parenthesis implies that it's more of a clarification than a rule (see Inn)? In that case it would actually be more accurate without the parenthesis, because that would state categorically that it's overridden by Transmogrify and Artisan.
The cards are printed. There's no rule downgrading text in parentheses, though these days I do often try to use them more as helpful reminders, that might not be accurate for all edge cases. But there's also important stuff sometimes that you just don't need to pay attention to all the time, e.g. "(This is not in the Supply.)"

I always assumed there was a reason for the decision being at the start of clean-up, having to do with some interaction. But I never tried to figure out what it could be. I guess there was no such reason. (I expect the online client to implement Scheme the old way, or you'd have to click topdeck or not for each card.)
Scheme went through several phrasings back when. Whether or not it worked with Throne and worked on itself changed sometimes, but I didn't care about those things (though I had to this time); the deal was just trying to get the clearest wording. Again, I lacked the technology (although, for all I know the new wording will prompt questions). I don't know how they will implement it online; some good way, we hope.
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2016, 05:41:22 pm »
+1

I have tried asking about this before... Will the new online Dominion constitute an official publishing of the new card versions? This would mean that all cards that change functionally, will officially change on January 1, and there will be no more of this "in-between" state where some cards function in an old way and some in a new way. And if the answer is no, well then that will be confusing for some cards, being different online and "officially".
I think they are going to have to be different. I am hoping that you are one of the few people on the planet who may find this disappointing. You can of course ignore this and just make your rules document match your expectation of the future, with a note as to which expansions have actually been updated and where your old rules document is.

It just doesn't make sense to say "here are some tiny almost-never-matter changes you should be playing with that haven't been printed yet." For the most part "official" doesn't mean much; people will play with the actual sets as they have them. To the degree that it means anything, it should match actual cards.

And would it be possible to provide all the new card texts that have been provided to ShuffleIT? That way we can use them to update wikis and rules documents.
The issues are
- Without verifying texts vs. published texts, there may be some errors (things that changed at the layout stage), and I'd rather not provide texts with errors. I verified Nomad Camp and Scheme vs. the cards (I don't wish to go through and check them all). Shuffle iT will probably have a few errors too (until they're caught) due to not getting late changes.
- Only Hinterlands has actually been printed (and made it through the process far enough that I have a copy); any other sets could get last-minute changes.
- We don't normally give out non-promotional advance information about unprinted products. We def. don't want to announce these in advance of stock running out (and thus delay them). If I was all "oops now this card changes" it would be a hint at the order.

And uh, I am weighing these vs. "making Jeebus happier." I would like you to be happier but apparently not enough. I have enjoyed your document and well perhaps someone who didn't have Hinterlands will get it and scan it in.
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2016, 06:08:38 pm »
0

I have tried asking about this before... Will the new online Dominion constitute an official publishing of the new card versions? This would mean that all cards that change functionally, will officially change on January 1, and there will be no more of this "in-between" state where some cards function in an old way and some in a new way. And if the answer is no, well then that will be confusing for some cards, being different online and "officially".

The only cards that change functionally are in the 2nd edition sets (Base and Intrigue), and thus already official published, and Possession, which has an erratum in Empires.  Everything else, if you read through the wordings on the new client, function exactly as they always have, just with better wordings.
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2016, 06:30:29 pm »
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The only cards that change functionally are in the 2nd edition sets (Base and Intrigue), and thus already official published, and Possession, which has an erratum in Empires.  Everything else, if you read through the wordings on the new client, function exactly as they always have, just with better wordings.
That isn't true; a very small number of cards have functional differences that almost never matter. For example Scheme shifts when you make the decision. It is a very small number of cards though.
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2016, 06:58:40 pm »
0

Thanks for replying, Donald.

So I think what you're saying effectively is there will be two official versions of Dominion (for the time being): Dominion (with actual cards), and Dominion Online. The only unfortunate and not "tiny almost-never-matter" issue, that I know of, is Stash, which will be significantly different in the two versions - up until the point of a new printing of course.

I didn't necessarily mean to ask about getting all the new card texts now, sorry that I was unclear. I meant the card texts that are going to be implemented online, of not in advance then at least when they are implemented online. I mean, the card texts will be there online for all to see and read, and they will in any case be the official cards of Dominion Online. So I was asking if it's possible to get the new texts at that point instead of having to screen grab each and every one. The issues you list shouldn't apply to that I think, since it's about the cards of Dominion Online, where the texts provided are the ones used (at least until any errors are corrected).

Printed sets like Hinterlands are different, hopefully someone will scan them. Or hopefully the new rulebook is going to be available online, that would do the trick since it has scans of all the cards.

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2016, 07:00:39 pm »
0

I think they are going to have to be different. I am hoping that you are one of the few people on the planet who may find this disappointing.
Did you mean to put a "not" in there...? :)

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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2016, 07:54:28 pm »
+2

So I think what you're saying effectively is there will be two official versions of Dominion (for the time being): Dominion (with actual cards), and Dominion Online. The only unfortunate and not "tiny almost-never-matter" issue, that I know of, is Stash, which will be significantly different in the two versions - up until the point of a new printing of course.
Stash is going to try to preserve its old functionality with the new printing, which probably you know. The promos are the one case where it wouldn't matter if I said when they were coming, but I don't know when they're coming. The work's been done, I think it's just down to printer availability.

The only minor change in other sets that comes to mind is Outpost, which will interact differently with other sources of extra turns.

I didn't necessarily mean to ask about getting all the new card texts now, sorry that I was unclear. I meant the card texts that are going to be implemented online, of not in advance then at least when they are implemented online. I mean, the card texts will be there online for all to see and read, and they will in any case be the official cards of Dominion Online. So I was asking if it's possible to get the new texts at that point instead of having to screen grab each and every one. The issues you list shouldn't apply to that I think, since it's about the cards of Dominion Online, where the texts provided are the ones used (at least until any errors are corrected).
I don't actually have that list verbatim. I (poorly) maintain a list of card texts. One day Stef saved it and used those. It has changed since then.

On or after Jan 1 you could ask Seprix, I believe he is taking charge of card formatting and will have all the texts as they have them (and will be less busy than Stef and SCSN).

Printed sets like Hinterlands are different, hopefully someone will scan them. Or hopefully the new rulebook is going to be available online, that would do the trick since it has scans of all the cards.
Oh if it isn't I will remind Jay to put it up.
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2016, 07:55:16 pm »
+2

I think they are going to have to be different. I am hoping that you are one of the few people on the planet who may find this disappointing.
Did you mean to put a "not" in there...? :)
No I meant, while it would be great if zero people were disappointed, I'd settle for just you being disappointed. If you are not disappointed either, even better.
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Re: Summon & Villa
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2016, 08:08:45 pm »
0

Stash is going to try to preserve its old functionality with the new printing, which probably you know.
Yes, that's why it will have a different functionally until then, except for in Dominion Online.

On or after Jan 1 you could ask Seprix, I believe he is taking charge of card formatting and will have all the texts as they have them (and will be less busy than Stef and SCSN).
Thanks for that info!

Printed sets like Hinterlands are different, hopefully someone will scan them. Or hopefully the new rulebook is going to be available online, that would do the trick since it has scans of all the cards.
Oh if it isn't I will remind Jay to put it up.
Thanks, that will really help!
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