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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards  (Read 22921 times)

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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #150 on: December 25, 2016, 01:52:46 pm »
0

Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.

I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.

If you do need the draw of Steward, you have to draw 5 Gold + 1 anything to get to double Province, which is six stop cards. You draw four with Steward, versus 8 stop cards with 2x Amulet 7x Silver when you draw 0.

If you don't need the draw of Steward, consider a deck of 2x Amulet, 7x Silver, versus 2x Steward, 4x Gold. Eight stop cards (1 Amulet is a Duration) versus six, using 1 Action a turn instead of 2. It doesn't sound like a lot more, but you can use Steward for draw in a pinch so it isn't necessarily a stop card, and eight stop cards is way more likely to whiff than six.

Of course, the opportunity cost of paying for Gold payload is a lot less than buying a few Silver and gaining several more, so "it depends on the board" and neither of us can really definitively argue the general case one way or another.
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tristan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #151 on: December 26, 2016, 01:47:39 pm »
0

Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.

I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.
I don't see how you can build a decent draw engine with "+2 Cards" unless the opponent totally ignored the village pile and there is a gainer in the Kingdom. Village+Smithy is a Double Lab whereas Village+Moat is just one Lab and normally not worth it. Especially not if that Moat costs 3 and you only had 2 in your deck for the sake of trashing once you start to build your draw engine.
No, in this instance you want some Treasures for payload and Silver does the trick.

In Kingdoms without virtual coins those few Silver you gain via Amulet are going to matter more than the abysmal draw of Steward. Now I am not going to argue that Amulet is a powerhouse Silver gainer like Trading Post or Jack and of course Amulet and Steward are of very similar strength.
But I think that the disadvantage of Amulet relative to Steward, trashing and terminal Silver spread over 2 turns, is made up by the Silver-gaining which is more valuable than 2 Cards and 2 Buys. And there are also middlegame situations (e.g. after some junking) in which you wanna trash only one card and thus prefer to have an Amulet over a Steward.

If these weren't assets Amulet would be worse then Steward which I simply consider to not be the case.

But then again the strength of Silver is an old Dominion issue on which opinions vary.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #152 on: December 26, 2016, 04:44:56 pm »
0

Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.

I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.
I don't see how you can build a decent draw engine with "+2 Cards" unless the opponent totally ignored the village pile and there is a gainer in the Kingdom. Village+Smithy is a Double Lab whereas Village+Moat is just one Lab and normally not worth it. Especially not if that Moat costs 3 and you only had 2 in your deck for the sake of trashing once you start to build your draw engine.

No, in this instance you want some Treasures for payload and Silver does the trick.

Nah, not really. You can just read the post I already made for my argument against it - you deleted the quote, and then didn't respond to the arguments directly at all. I pointed out how many more stop cards a Silver payload engine with double Amulet has over a Gold payload engine with double Steward has. If you need draw so badly that Steward doesn't cut it, then you either can't build a good engine or you can't sustain 8 stop cards a turn. Pretty simple really.
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tristan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #153 on: December 27, 2016, 02:46:46 am »
0

Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.

I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.
I don't see how you can build a decent draw engine with "+2 Cards" unless the opponent totally ignored the village pile and there is a gainer in the Kingdom. Village+Smithy is a Double Lab whereas Village+Moat is just one Lab and normally not worth it. Especially not if that Moat costs 3 and you only had 2 in your deck for the sake of trashing once you start to build your draw engine.

No, in this instance you want some Treasures for payload and Silver does the trick.

Nah, not really. You can just read the post I already made for my argument against it - you deleted the quote, and then didn't respond to the arguments directly at all. I pointed out how many more stop cards a Silver payload engine with double Amulet has over a Gold payload engine with double Steward has. If you need draw so badly that Steward doesn't cut it, then you either can't build a good engine or you can't sustain 8 stop cards a turn. Pretty simple really.
Your example did not feature a draw engine it all, it was just a shitload of Gold plus some extra buy that came out of thin air. Steward must really be a powerhouse if it can do that
Seriously, I totally agree with you that Gold is better than Silver, no need to argue about that.   ;D

Village plus Steward-draw is equal to a Lab. You cannot build a draw engine with that.
I actually only once build an actual draw engine with "+2 Cards" cards so either I am totally ignorant ... or "+3 Cards" is actually really significantly better than "+2 Cards". Well, let's check, Village plus Smithy is equivalent to a Double Lab. Looks like the combo of a 3 and a 4 really is double as powerful as the combo of a 3 and a 3 (Steward as drawer).

As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 02:48:23 am by tristan »
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traces Around

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #154 on: December 27, 2016, 03:01:56 am »
+2

As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.

You are remarkably consistent in your argument strategies, I'll give you that.

tristan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #155 on: December 27, 2016, 03:06:26 am »
0

As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.

You are remarkably consistent in your argument strategies, I'll give you that.
Bullcrap. It is not a "strategy" but a response to what Chris actually claimed:

Amulet is good but it really isn't better than Steward in my experience. 90% of this is because Amulet can't ever draw. So I'm fine with Amulet below Steward. Forager isn't better than
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #156 on: December 27, 2016, 04:07:25 am »
+2

As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.

As I said, Steward is better in each and every situation so arguments that Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength are more than just a a tad ridiculous.
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traces Around

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #157 on: December 27, 2016, 04:25:37 am »
+7

As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.

You are remarkably consistent in your argument strategies, I'll give you that.
Bullcrap. It is not a "strategy" but a response to what Chris actually claimed:

Amulet is good but it really isn't better than Steward in my experience. 90% of this is because Amulet can't ever draw. So I'm fine with Amulet below Steward. Forager isn't better than

Upon closer inspection you may realize that they never made any claim that Steward is better than Amulet in each and every situation. I mostly point this out because this particular twisting of words (claiming of an unconditional statement where there was none) has been a trend for a month now: this is at least the third time.
Based on those last two threads, it seems almost certain that somebody is going to be labelled a liar pretty soon.

No statement on this forum about Dominion is said with any notion of it being an absolute truth, and these rankings are particularly noteworthy in that respect: they are based on an average case, not based on any absolute, because, as you have so kindly pointed out so many times, it depends on the kingdom. I don't see why this is so difficult, like, I can say that Chapel is better than Counting House and somehow everybody knows what that means without me having to point out the exceptions. The fact that the two cards that are being discussed are closer in strength should not change that underlying assumption, and I suggest using this very sentence if you want to practice the thinking which goes into accounting for that assumption.

You know, the tough part is that in this case I actually do think that the average case of Amulet is better than the average case of Steward, but I am not going to put up with your crap, and quite frankly, nobody else should either.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 02:48:37 pm by traces Around »
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tristan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #158 on: December 28, 2016, 07:52:07 am »
0

I am not going to put up with your crap, and quite frankly, nobody else should either.
Looks like somebody is still mad because I pointed out the difference between turns and shuffles.
Looks like you get even mader when I point out that Chris did in fact argue for what he did argue for.

Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with. And if you piss them, as well as p***philes like Awaclus, off, you must have doen something right.

User was temp banned for this post (and others).
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 11:17:39 am by theory »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #159 on: December 28, 2016, 08:19:27 am »
+4

I am not going to put up with your crap, and quite frankly, nobody else should either.
Looks like somebody is still mad because I pointed out the difference between turns and shuffles.
Looks like you get even mader when I point out that Chris did in fact argue for what he did argue for.

Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with. And if you piss them, as well as p***philes like Awaclus, off, you must have doen something right.

You must have misunderstood something. The point of arguing is not to piss people off.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #160 on: December 28, 2016, 08:33:24 am »
+3

Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with.
I understand none of this. Who are postmodern relativists on here? What does that even mean? How does it make people hard to argue with? Why am I writing a response to an obviously semi-trolling post?
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tristan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #161 on: December 28, 2016, 08:48:21 am »
0

Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with.
I understand none of this. Who are postmodern relativists on here? What does that even mean? How does it make people hard to argue with? Why am I writing a response to an obviously semi-trolling post?
That guy went mad when I pointed out that Chris did actually argue precisely what I claimed (just like he went mad in another thread because I dared to point out that you do not automatically shuffle once per turn), namely that Steward is better than Amulet ... and you seriously accuse ME of being a troll?
I mean, seriously?
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Miked

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #162 on: December 28, 2016, 09:29:33 am »
+1

Village plus Steward-draw is equal to a Lab. You cannot build a draw engine with that.
There are actually many cases where Lab or equivalent is sufficient for a draw engine. Some examples include: strong villages such as Wandering Minstrel or Fishing Village, cantrip payload such as Grand Market, Highway or Peddlers and strong trashing such as Steward or Chapel. Obviously such a sweeping statement that you cannot build a draw engine with +"2 Cards" cards is completely ridiculous.

I actually only once build an actual draw engine with "+2 Cards" cards so either I am totally ignorant
You yourself even state that you have built a draw engine with "+2 Cards" cards in the very next sentence contradicting yourself and proving how preposterous your previous claim was. In fact you seem to have summed up what everyone else has been trying to tell you here better than they have been able to, so I don't see why this argument has continued.

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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #163 on: December 28, 2016, 10:20:59 am »
+11

I really just want to re-emphasize the point that +2 card draw is most useful in engine games where you are extremely thin, perhaps with the help of an elite trasher like Steward. Oh look, the card that gives you less than elite draw is also the card that enables you to get away with it. Weird, huh.

I also want to emphasize, hey, you can have a deck where some cards draw 3 cards and other cards draw 2 cards, and it'll be better at drawing than a deck where some cards draw 3 cards and other cards draw 0 cards.

But honesty I don't even get what the point of posting this is. I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here. It's impossible to discuss a differing opinion with you. I agree with you politically most of the time, and I kind of figured your intensity in that was mostly out of frustration on not being able to find common ground / areas to compromise on in that realm, but really it turns out you hold all of your convictions with that strength.

What is the purpose of discussion, for you? What do you gain by posting on a forum, and what value do you find in the comments of posts that you don't already agree with? Why are you here? These aren't rhetorical questions - I really want to know.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 10:23:30 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #164 on: December 28, 2016, 10:21:42 am »
+7

There are actually many cases where Lab or equivalent is sufficient for a draw engine. Some examples include: strong villages such as Wandering Minstrel or Fishing Village, cantrip payload such as Grand Market, Highway or Peddlers and strong trashing such as Steward or Chapel.

And surprisingly enough, strong trashing such as Steward or Chapel is usually present when Steward is in the kingdom.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #165 on: December 28, 2016, 11:54:11 am »
+4

Steward > Amulet
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