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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards  (Read 33894 times)

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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #125 on: December 21, 2016, 05:58:13 am »
+2

For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is often underoverestimated

FTFY

How is it overestimated? Nobody ever talks about it at all. Consider this post:

I really appreciate how Steward is considered much better than Amulet. Being a draw card after trashing is just so much, much better than being a terminal Copper / delayed Peddler, even if double Amulet works a bit smoother than double Steward and you get a bit more economy while trashing.

Amulet can gain two Silvers with a single play, or it can gain a Silver and trash a card (like a Jack that doesn't draw but can trash Copper). That's pretty okay in engines, but it's absolutely bonkers in BM or slogs. In big engines, I agree Steward is slightly better than Amulet, but overall, I still think Amulet is better.

By the way, I also think Steward's draw is often overestimated. +2 Cards is not that great. If Steward is the only draw card in an engine, I wouldn't be so sure about the engine as a whole. And if it's not, you're often better off just taking +$2.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 05:59:53 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #126 on: December 21, 2016, 06:27:03 am »
0

For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is often underoverestimated

FTFY

How is it overestimated? Nobody ever talks about it at all.

There should be talk about how it's not very useful.

Amulet can gain two Silvers with a single play, or it can gain a Silver and trash a card (like a Jack that doesn't draw but can trash Copper). That's pretty okay in engines, but it's absolutely bonkers in BM or slogs. In big engines, I agree Steward is slightly better than Amulet, but overall, I still think Amulet is better.

By the way, I also think Steward's draw is often overestimated. +2 Cards is not that great. If Steward is the only draw card in an engine, I wouldn't be so sure about the engine as a whole. And if it's not, you're often better off just taking +$2.

Gaining two Silvers is awful in engines. Gaining a Silver and trashing a card is fine in engines, but not when the alternative is not gaining a Silver and still trashing a card, and especially not if you can trash two cards. Trashing a card is like gaining a Lab, gaining a Silver is like trashing a Lab.

You're also wrong about Steward's draw being overestimated. You can totally build engines with Steward as the only draw, because Steward being in the kingdom already means you probably don't need amazing draw in the first place since you can trash all of your junk cards pretty fast. If it's not the only draw, it's still super useful because it adds more reliability.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #127 on: December 21, 2016, 06:36:48 am »
0

I do hope you realize that when people say 'Silver is like a Curse', they're usually making a joke. Yes, in engines you want to be very careful with gaining Treasure cards and a Silver often becomes dead weight later on, but gaining a Silver is by no means equivalent to trashing a Lab. People open Silver in engines, you know. But opening Amulet and using it to gain a Silver on the second shuffle might be more efficient in some cases.

And remember, not every board is an engine. Amulet is useful on almost every board, Steward just isn't.
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Holger

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #128 on: December 21, 2016, 07:00:02 am »
+1

A small thing to consider with Masquerade is that we are ranking the version that doesn't pin (as much). That's a small part of Masquerade's overall effectiveness, but it's worth noting nonetheless.

Was this clear during the ranking? It seems strange to make a list which consists of 1st edition cards but with 2nd edition Masquerade.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #129 on: December 21, 2016, 07:09:48 am »
+1

I do hope you realize that when people say 'Silver is like a Curse', they're usually making a joke.

Well, I don't exactly need to take advice from most people who are joking about that. It is literally true that Silver is a stop card, which is also the main feature of Curse.

Yes, in engines you want to be very careful with gaining Treasure cards and a Silver often becomes dead weight later on, but gaining a Silver is by no means equivalent to trashing a Lab. People open Silver in engines, you know. But opening Amulet and using it to gain a Silver on the second shuffle might be more efficient in some cases.

People open Silver in engines when they don't have any other choice. If there's something like Wishing Well or Oasis available, people buy that over Silver because adding a stop card to your deck so early on is extremely detrimental. Sometimes you just have to buy the Silver anyway because you need the early economy, but there's no reason to gain Silver when Amulet is available, because Amulet gives you economy in addition to being a trasher, and if you still need the Silver despite Amulet being available, you need it to be in your deck for turns 3/4, not after you have already played an Amulet.

And remember, not every board is an engine. Amulet is useful on almost every board, Steward just isn't.

If Amulet or Steward is present, it is probably an engine board. Especially if it's Steward.


Also the Masquerade pin is a 3-card combo, and thusly, it's not worth noting because it doesn't happen in real games of Dominion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #130 on: December 21, 2016, 08:49:11 am »
+2

Also the Masquerade pin is a 3-card combo, and thusly, it's not worth noting because it doesn't happen in real games of Dominion.
Maquerade/Royal Carriage is/was a 2-card combo.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #131 on: December 21, 2016, 09:15:52 am »
0

Also the Masquerade pin is a 3-card combo, and thusly, it's not worth noting because it doesn't happen in real games of Dominion.
Maquerade/Royal Carriage is/was a 2-card combo.

Right, I forgot about that. Well, that is somewhat relevant, but still super rare.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #132 on: December 21, 2016, 11:05:15 am »
0

Amulet can gain two Silvers with a single play, or it can gain a Silver and trash a card (like a Jack that doesn't draw but can trash Copper). That's pretty okay in engines, but it's absolutely bonkers in BM or slogs. In big engines, I agree Steward is slightly better than Amulet, but overall, I still think Amulet is better.

Amulet is clearly better in BM, no question there.

But Stewart isn't "slightly better" than Amulet in an engine - it is dramatically better. It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.

Quote
By the way, I also think Steward's draw is often overestimated. +2 Cards is not that great. If Steward is the only draw card in an engine, I wouldn't be so sure about the engine as a whole. And if it's not, you're often better off just taking +$2.

+2 Cards is decent draw if your engine has been thinned of junk, which is what Steward does. +2 Cards sucks if you're not thin, if you're playing Big Money, etc., but it's just fine if the average card in your deck is really good and useful. It's not the best draw card ever, but it's miles better than being a stop card that doesn't really contribute anything - and if you don't need the draw it's a terminal Silver every turn instead of a terminal Copper one turn and a Peddler next turn.

A small thing to consider with Masquerade is that we are ranking the version that doesn't pin (as much). That's a small part of Masquerade's overall effectiveness, but it's worth noting nonetheless.

Was this clear during the ranking? It seems strange to make a list which consists of 1st edition cards but with 2nd edition Masquerade.

The pictured Masquerade used in the ranking is the one shown in the OP of this post, which contains the anti-pin language.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 11:06:19 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #133 on: December 21, 2016, 11:07:53 am »
0

It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.

Who the hell buys more than one Steward

There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #134 on: December 21, 2016, 11:14:52 am »
+1

It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.

Who the hell buys more than one Steward

There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into

Many, many times I've bought two Steward to thin faster. Mostly on boards where getting a power $5 immediately isn't paramount. Or an Alms board or something. Is this that uncommon?

I pretty much always buy two Amulet though, it's not fast enough for an engine with just one. But it is a lot easier to trash one with the other later, so there's that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #135 on: December 21, 2016, 11:25:23 am »
+1

Who the hell buys more than one Steward

I do, almost every time unless there's non-terminal trashing for $3 or $4.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #136 on: December 21, 2016, 11:26:30 am »
0

It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.

Who the hell buys more than one Steward

There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into

Many, many times I've bought two Steward to thin faster. Mostly on boards where getting a power $5 immediately isn't paramount. Or an Alms board or something. Is this that uncommon?

I pretty much always buy two Amulet though, it's not fast enough for an engine with just one. But it is a lot easier to trash one with the other later, so there's that.

I mean, it's not as bad as getting two Chapels, but I only see multiple Stewards from a) bots or b) really sloggy games.  If Steward is the only draw, I find it usually isn't even worth it to bother.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #137 on: December 21, 2016, 11:36:32 am »
0

It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.

Who the hell buys more than one Steward

There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into

I'd buy two Stewards if it's a board where I would have really, really wanted Chapel. The good thing about double Steward is that the Steward can be used as a Silver when it's time to add good cards to your deck. With Chapel you often have to sneak in a Silver somewhere, possibly in the opening.

Don't be so dismissive about Steward draw either. If you're playing a deck that tries to play lots of cantrips, Steward might be the only draw you need.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #138 on: December 21, 2016, 11:37:10 am »
0

I mean, it's not as bad as getting two Chapels, but I only see multiple Stewards from a) bots or b) really sloggy games.

Perhaps it's because you're getting automatched against lower level players?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #139 on: December 21, 2016, 11:40:39 am »
0

Steward/Steward is a legit opening when no other trashers are present
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #140 on: December 21, 2016, 12:00:53 pm »
+5

So some logic behind double Steward:

1. Trashing fast is pretty much the ideal - the only real reason to not eliminate all your junk as fast as possible on an engine board is if you need that junk to buy your first several components.

2. When you get thin with Steward, you'll always have at the very least +$2 from one of your Stewards to start you off, and this is assuming you don't find a Village buy before then. You can more aggressively thin with Steward versus other trashers as a result.

3. In the second shuffle, double Steward is basically strictly better than single Steward if getting thin is more important than racing to $5. The collision case is basically the same outcome as opening Steward / Anything Else - you don't buy anything on the collision turn, you get something on the other turn. The non collision case is much better - you trashed 4 cards by turn 5. Nice!

4. Since Steward is better than nothing on a lot of boards you don't really mind keeping 2 of them around for awhile. You can trash one if you really want to though you need a second card to trash with it. Most of the time even if it isn't the absolute best use of terminal space, it's a pretty decent terminal, either for economy or draw depending on what the deck needs at the moment.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #141 on: December 21, 2016, 12:07:14 pm »
0

You learn something new every day!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #142 on: December 21, 2016, 01:34:27 pm »
+2

3. In the second shuffle, double Steward is basically strictly better than single Steward if getting thin is more important than racing to $5. The collision case is basically the same outcome as opening Steward / Anything Else - you don't buy anything on the collision turn, you get something on the other turn. The non collision case is much better - you trashed 4 cards by turn 5. Nice!

I mostly agree with your post on why double Steward is a decent opening, but not this section. 

Steward + other terminal is identical to double Steward in the collision case, and so it would take an extraordinary terminal to even consider opening with it over double Stewart (Peasant, Swindler, Black Market, Remake, and Jack of all Trades are some of the only terminal actions I'd consider opening with Steward).

But Steward + good non-terminal is often a better opening than double Steward.  Cards like Tournament, Ironmonger, Magpie, and Wishing Well can give you a chance to get a $5 card and trash two cards on turns 3 and 4 - if they don't collide.  If your openers do "collide", you'll usually be able to buy a $3 component on that turn.  Those cards also reduce the likelihood of your Steward missing the shuffle.

Steward + Silver is sometimes better than Steward + Steward.  If they don't collide, you have a good chance of reaching $5 in your hand with Silver.  If they do collide, you can still pick up a $3 card while trashing.  Which is better will depend on the rest of the kingdom.  Strong $2 cards and plentiful action splitters favor double Steward.  Strong $3 and $5 components and limited terminal space favor Steward + Silver.

Edit: Because Dingan is correct.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 02:42:17 pm by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #143 on: December 21, 2016, 01:53:44 pm »
+2

Steward + Silver is sometimes better than Steward + Steward.  If they don't collide, you have a better chance of reaching $5.

Wouldn't you have an equal chance of hitting $5?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #144 on: December 21, 2016, 02:30:59 pm »
0

3. In the second shuffle, double Steward is basically strictly better than single Steward if getting thin is more important than racing to $5. The collision case is basically the same outcome as opening Steward / Silver Anything Else - you don't buy anything on the collision turn, you get something on the other turn. The non collision case is much better - you trashed 4 cards by turn 5. Nice!

Change Anything Else to Silver and this is mostly correct (assuming that you'll trash with Steward over hitting $5). Steward (trash 2) + Silver + Copper still buys another $3 card, but there probably aren't any $3 cards that are critical to get on the second shuffle if you opened Silver over those other $3 cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #145 on: December 21, 2016, 04:57:02 pm »
0

Everyone's points about hitting $5 if you get a power $4 cantrip, etc. are valid, which is why I specified that double is better than single if thinning quickly is more important than racing to a power $5.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #146 on: December 23, 2016, 08:49:22 pm »
0

FV above urchin is criminal

it's half a stop card, people

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #147 on: December 23, 2016, 09:45:16 pm »
0

FV above urchin is criminal

it's half a stop card, people
Agreed. We also have a lot of villages these days
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #148 on: December 25, 2016, 11:09:38 am »
0

Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #149 on: December 25, 2016, 01:08:46 pm »
0

An engine needs a lot of draw for Silver to be a good payload.  It can happen with power draw like Wharf, but it's rare.  Amulet's Silver gaining can work well in an engine with Storyteller, Apprentice, Butcher, or the like.
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