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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards  (Read 33888 times)

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mameluke

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #100 on: December 15, 2016, 05:18:03 pm »
0

Maybe dumb question, but it is fair to talk about losing ranks since the last list since there are so many new cards? Maybe I don't understand the stats here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2016, 05:20:18 pm »
+5

I ignore new cards for those stats. So if a card was on rank #20 and is now still on rank #20, but there are 2 new cards still coming up in this list it is now 2 ranks better than last year.

Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #102 on: December 15, 2016, 05:25:38 pm »
0

Not a lot that's obviously controversial with this section of the list. It's good that people like Bonfire now. It should be higher, I think? But top ten $3 is an elite tier, so maybe that's about its ceiling.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #103 on: December 15, 2016, 05:32:15 pm »
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Dungeon is way better than warehouse in practically any deck your playing.

Engines: The most common time you dud is at the beginning of your turn. This is about as good as guide at preventing duds.

Slogs: See your phil-stone, sea hag or whatever on more turns.

Bm: Discard two greens every turn.

Good stuff: See your good stuff more often every turn.

This is basically wharf vs smithy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #104 on: December 15, 2016, 07:06:26 pm »
+2

This is probably the saddest list that is going to come out this year.
Leaves top 10 as Ambassador, Masquerade, Steward, Fishing Village, Forager, Swindler, Urchin, Ferry, Menagerie, and Gear

Now for (30 reasons is the thing right now? whatever) why it is sad:

1. Lookout - is much better than this. Trashes and cycles non-terminally. Stop worrying about trashing good cards and track your deck better. The fact that this is #20 and Forager is in the top 10 is absurd considering that Forager does not do one of these things. There are certainly good arguments for Forager being better, but it is not that much better.

2. Dungeon - is way better than Warehouse, should be top 10. Most duds happen at the start of turns and having a Dungeon or two out helps with this, along with the 3 card sifting of Warehouse in the middle of the turn often being superfluous. Since we all care about money strategies so much, also Dungeon money beats Embassy money with both out of a 3/4 start.

3. Watchtower - it lost ranks but I'm still not sure what it is doing this high and I don't think that the reasons for wondering are too obscure.

4. Amulet - is at least as good as Steward if not better. Having the potential trashing spread across two turns makes it so that if the coin is more useful (say for hitting 5) you still get a card trashed. The ability to gain Silver also makes it a much better money card and allows for the addition of payload in engines if that is what is needed.

5. Menagerie - is just not that good, we should have seen it in this list. When it works it is amazing but the conditions on it working repeatedly in a powerful deck are rather narrow.

Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2016, 03:49:32 am »
+1

Well, to be fair, Forager doesn't just trash, it also gives +Buy and $ later in the game, whereas Lookout is only a trasher (well, with maybe a small amount of sifting). Also, tracking your deck isn't always the solution to problems with Lookout, sometimes you just get unlucky if you play it near the top of a shuffle (but you still should, because thinning is winning). It's a pretty decent card but it shouldn't be much higher. Having said that, I actually do have it higher, I just noticed, on place 19 instead of 20! Close call though. (Forager is on 13)

Also, Watchtower is a good card. It may very well be the second best defensive card in the game (after Champion), countering cursers and handsize attacks like there's no tomorrow, but it's also the best card for draw-to-X engines. They're sometimes a bit more difficult to build than standard Village-Smithy type engines, but it definitely pays off.

You make a good case for Dungeon > Warehouse (I had Dungeon just 1 place over Warehouse, the difference is probably bigger than that tbh), but top 10 is likely too high. I do agree with your point about Menagerie, it probably shouldn't be in the top 10, it's a bit too situational for that.
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markus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2016, 04:11:14 am »
0

I ignore new cards for those stats. So if a card was on rank #20 and is now still on rank #20, but there are 2 new cards still coming up in this list it is now 2 ranks better than last year.
But this is not true for the reported average %?
It seems that a direct effect of Empires is to make cards in the bottom half lose % and cards in the upper half win %.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2016, 08:18:00 am »
+2

Forager is better than Lookout, but only a little better. Not enough that I'm losing a ton of sleep over Lookout being 20 and Forager probably being 10.

Amulet is good but it really isn't better than Steward in my experience. 90% of this is because Amulet can't ever draw. So I'm fine with Amulet below Steward. Forager isn't better than Steward though.

Menagerie is as good as its ranked. More enablers for it than ever and you don't need it to draw 3 consistently to be worth it, just once or twice per hand is often fine.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 08:19:04 am by Chris is me »
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Harley_Beckett

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2016, 09:10:00 am »
+3

I note that most of the new 3-cost cards from Empires have placed mid-table.  I think this either means that Donald X is great at balancing cards, or the community doesn't quite know what to make of them yet.  Maybe both.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2016, 09:14:43 am »
0

My experience with Menagerie is that you can add a couple in the mid game to late game even when it doesn't seem that strong and it will still activate maybe a third of the time (like, during the greening stage). That's not too shabby. This is ignoring all the games where it has synergy and ends up dominating.

Amulet is fine, but you usually want at least two to deal with Amulet missing the reshuffle and then you have two terminals that don't feel good to play over other stuff somewhere in the mid game, though they are still perfectly playable when you have actions to spare. Steward draw allows it to form a core part of your engine once you trash down. I'm okay with Steward being higher than Amulet but maybe Amulet can be a bit higher?

Forager gives money and a buy guys, and it trashes from your hand (more trashing control), making it stay very relevant throughout the game. It's a few places better than Lookout in my eyes due to its consistency.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2016, 09:19:34 am »
0

Forager isn't better than Steward though.

It depends on the kingdom.  Generally, Steward is better if there is an action splitter in the kingdom, and Forager is better if there isn't.  Steward is better when fast trashing is more important; Forager is better when buying $3/$4 components while trashing is preferred.  Also, when you're trashing singleton junk from attacks, Steward can become an awkward play.  In the absence of such attacks, Forager can become awkward to play in the lategame.  Steward is better when there is no other source of draw; Forager is better when there is no other source of +buy.  It's not obvious to me which card is more valuable in a random kingdom.

Fun fact: The community's list and my list have the same cards in the top ten!  I'm glad Gear made it into the top 10.

Part 4 seemed very reasonable to me, with one exception: Bonfire.  I've certainly come around on Bonfire since last year, but I think you guys are still overrating it (I had it about 10 ranks lower).  There are a lot of boards where Bonfire is a better purchase than a second or third Silver - which I didn't realize last year.  But, being unable to trash Estates and Curses is a large handicap.  Bonfire works nicely with an Estate trasher, but it can definitely be a trap to go in for heavy Copper trashing while holding onto one's Estates (see this game, where Mic Qsenoch and I had a hard time hitting $3P because we bought multiple Bonfires and no Silver).  Bonfire had a high deviation, so I suspect some people voted it in the top 10, which I just can't understand.  Bonfire is ignorable on too many boards and low impact on most others for it to be close to as good as Amulet or Hermit.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2016, 10:26:12 am »
0

I don't think Bonfire is ever really ignorable per se, but you do skip buying it sometimes. It's always an option worth considering, though, and its speed is unmatched among trashers (except Donate I guess). Even in games where it isn't an all-star, it lets you ditch your Chapel or Amulet or whatever. I particularly like how you pay for it using the Copper that you end up trashing - it really is a trasher that costs a buy rather than a dead card and an action.

I think Bonfire is probably better than Amulet when all is said and done.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2016, 10:47:33 am »
0

I think Bonfire is probably better than Amulet when all is said and done.

I'm pretty sure it's not. For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is often underestimated, but more importantly: Amulet can trash Estates.

Amulet has always been a bit underrated, probably because people hate how it misses so many shuffles, but it has a lot of mitigating factors.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2016, 12:31:31 pm »
0

For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is often underoverestimated

FTFY
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2016, 01:13:12 pm »
0

I notice that nobody has tried to defend the biggest loser so far, Guide.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2016, 01:23:02 pm »
+1

I notice that nobody has tried to defend the biggest loser so far, Guide.

Guide is more skippable than people think
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2016, 01:36:24 pm »
0

wtf. I had Bonfire in my top 5. I'm surprised at its rank.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2016, 01:47:49 pm »
0

I notice that nobody has tried to defend the biggest loser so far, Guide.

23rd on the $3 list isn't really "bad card" territory, just not essential or overwhelmingly good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2016, 02:24:15 pm »
0

wtf. I had Bonfire in my top 5. I'm surprised at its rank.

I hear ya. I have the same top ten except Swindler basically swapped places with Bonfire.

This might just be a product of me not having played with Bonfire enough. I've been satisfied with its work almost every time.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2016, 02:44:38 pm »
+1

Would any Bonfire champions like to play me in a cage match?

The format:
  • Bonfire and Plan are always in the kingdom.  The rest of the cards are random.
  • I cannot buy Bonfire.
  • You cannot buy Plan.
  • We play some games and see how it goes, hopefully learning more about the strength of Bonfire and Plan.
If this interests you, send me a message.  I have about half the sets (including Adventures), so bonus points if you have more sets.  We can swap Plan for some other decent card if you want.

Follow-up: markusin took me up on my offer and played a set of games with this format.  Check out the results.  Thanks, markusin!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 12:33:22 pm by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #120 on: December 20, 2016, 06:31:32 pm »
+2

Sorry about the break, here is the Top 10

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #121 on: December 20, 2016, 06:56:12 pm »
+1

I still think Masquerade is better than Ambassador.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #122 on: December 20, 2016, 07:47:37 pm »
+1

i am happy that urchin went down because it's stupid
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #123 on: December 20, 2016, 08:28:05 pm »
0

Ferry's better than Swinder, otherwise I'm content with the top 10.

I really appreciate how Steward is considered much better than Amulet. Being a draw card after trashing is just so much, much better than being a terminal Copper / delayed Peddler, even if double Amulet works a bit smoother than double Steward and you get a bit more economy while trashing.

Urchin falling is kind of expected. It's very strong, but a little awkward and monolithic. I think where it sits now is about right. Everything above it is better. Even Steward, I really think so. 

A small thing to consider with Masquerade is that we are ranking the version that doesn't pin (as much). That's a small part of Masquerade's overall effectiveness, but it's worth noting nonetheless.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #124 on: December 20, 2016, 10:39:55 pm »
0

I feel Gear is better than Ferry
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