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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards  (Read 55732 times)

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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« on: December 10, 2016, 11:36:58 am »
+10

The Best Cards - Part 1/5

44+ votes for Empires cards, ~59 votes for the rest.



#49 =0 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 5.3% ▼3.2pp / Unweighted Average: 5.5% / Median: 2.1% ▼0.9pp / Standard Deviation: 8.2%

Chancellor stays last since nearly the beginning. It even lost points and its deviation is the lowest of this whole list, so there's no doubt. It was voted last 23 times.
#48 =0 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 8.5% ▼5.6pp / Unweighted Average: 8.8% / Median: 4.8% ▼5.0pp / Standard Deviation: 9.9%

Great Hall lost ranks every year in the past, but stayed second to last this time. It still lost quite a lot in its average and has quite a low deviation. It was voted last 9 times.
#47 =0 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 11.8% ▼3.6pp / Unweighted Average: 11.7% / Median: 8.3% ▼2.2pp / Standard Deviation: 10.4%

Woodcutter fits into the same scheme, it stays on the same rank and lost in its average. It was voted last 5 times.
#46 =0 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 14.8% ▼1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 15.1% / Median: 10.4% ▼1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 14.5%

And I can only repeat myself. Fortune Teller stays where it was and lost a bit in its average. It has 7 last ranks.
#45 ▼1 Masterpiece (Guilds) Weighted Average: 20.6% ▼3.5pp / Unweighted Average: 22.6% / Median: 16.7% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 21.2%

Masterpiece is next with a lead of nearly 6pp over Fortune Teller. After losing quite a lot last year, it lost again one more rank. It has quite a high deviation for such a low ranked card. It was voted last twice.
#44 ▼2 Sage (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 23.7% ▼1.9pp / Unweighted Average: 26.9% / Median: 21.4% ▼2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3%

Losing consistently ranks the last years, Sage loses again 2 ranks. It is 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking, so newer players overvalue it. It was voted last once.
#43 ▼3 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 24.0% ▼3.2pp / Unweighted Average: 24.4% / Median: 20.8% ▼3.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.9%

After rising 5 ranks last year, Workshop falls back down 3 ranks. In the unweighted ranking it's even one more rank lower. It's at least the first card with no vote on the last rank.
#42 Banquet (Empires) Weighted Average: 24.3% / Unweighted Average: 24.9% / Median: 16.7% / Standard Deviation: 21.6%

Here's the first new card in this list. Banquet has a pretty low median compared to its average and the highest deviation we have seen so far in this list. It was voted last 3 times. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
#41 ▲3 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 24.3% ▲3.3pp / Unweighted Average: 26.1% / Median: 22.9% ▲3.8pp / Standard Deviation: 18.6%

Trade Route has a small lead over Banquet of 0.04pp. It's the first card which won ranks, 3 ranks to be exact. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
#40 ▼2 Caravan Guard (Adventures) Weighted Average: 25.5% ▼3.8pp / Unweighted Average: 27.5% / Median: 25.0% ▼1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5%

Caravan Guard lost 2 ranks, but is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2016, 11:37:08 am »
+8

The Best Cards - Part 2/5



#39 ▲3 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 28.5% ▲3.6pp / Unweighted Average: 27.0% / Median: 23.9% ▲4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 20.2%

3pp better than Caravan Guard is Develop. It was last in the first edition, but rises consistently, just like last year, it is 3 ranks better. It is still one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
#38 ▼1 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 29.7% ▼3.8pp / Unweighted Average: 36.5% / Median: 33.3% ▼3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 22.2%

Just like in the last years, Tunnel loses again, this time one rank. It is still 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking, but was also voted last once.
#37 ▲3 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 30.3% ▲3.9pp / Unweighted Average: 29.1% / Median: 29.2% ▲5.4pp / Standard Deviation: 18.9%

Loan was better 2 ranks last year, this year 3 more ranks. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking and was voted last once.
#36 ▼5 Storeroom (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 34.9% ▼6.3pp / Unweighted Average: 37.6% / Median: 33.3% ▼11.4pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7%

Storeroom has a lead over Loan of over 4.5pp but is a loser in this list. It lost 5 ranks and over 6pp. But it is still 4 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
#35 ▼2 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 34.9% ▼5.2pp / Unweighted Average: 38.4% / Median: 38.1% ▼1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7%

Oasis has a small lead over Storeroom of 0.05pp. Just like last year it lost again 2 ranks and quite a significant amount in its average. It also is still 4 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
#34 ▼2 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 36.2% ▼4.3pp / Unweighted Average: 37.4% / Median: 36.4% ▼1.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.2%

Oracle keeps losing ranks, this year 2 more ranks. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
#33 ▲2 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 36.3% ▼1.0pp / Unweighted Average: 35.2% / Median: 33.3% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 17.2%

And Smugglers keeps on climbing, this year 2 more ranks. It has a small lead over Oracle of 0.04pp. It is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
#32 Farmers' Market (Empires) Weighted Average: 36.7% / Unweighted Average: 37.0% / Median: 33.3% / Standard Deviation: 19.3%

Here is the second Empires card. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
#31 ▲2 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 38.9% ▼0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 36.0% / Median: 37.5% ▼4.9pp / Standard Deviation: 17.0%

Shanty Town has the same average, but still is 2 ranks higher and keeps on placing higher. It is 4 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 01:06:30 pm by Qvist »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2016, 11:37:15 am »
+7

The Best Cards - Part 3/5



#30 Chariot Race (Empires) Weighted Average: 40.6% / Unweighted Average: 40.5% / Median: 39.6% / Standard Deviation: 17.1%

We're starting part 3 with another new card.
#29 Gladiator (Empires) Weighted Average: 41.1% / Unweighted Average: 41.0% / Median: 35.9% / Standard Deviation: 22.7%

Gladiator is the second new Empires card in a row. It has a really high deviation.
#28 ▼2 Doctor (Guilds) Weighted Average: 42.2% ▼2.2pp / Unweighted Average: 46.0% / Median: 45.3% ▲2.9pp / Standard Deviation: 22.8%

Doctor loses 2 ranks and has a high deviation as well. It is one rank higher in the unweighted list.
#27 Catapult (Empires) Weighted Average: 46.2% / Unweighted Average: 48.4% / Median: 50.0% / Standard Deviation: 25.6%

Catapult is the third new Empires card within 4 cards. It has the highest deviation in this list as it was voted first and last each once. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It has quite a big lead over Doctor of around 4pp.
#26 =0 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 47.1% ▲3.0pp / Unweighted Average: 45.5% / Median: 45.8% ▲6.8pp / Standard Deviation: 18.1%

After winning quite a lot of ranks last year, Wishin Well stays the same this year, but is still quite a bit better average wise. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
#25 ▼2 Expedition (Adventures) Weighted Average: 47.9% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 49.2% / Median: 50.0% ▲3.7pp / Standard Deviation: 22.3%

Expedition is exactly in the middle in this list but there are still 2 cards with less than 50% to come. It loses 2 ranks but is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It has a high deviation.
#24 ▲8 Plan (Adventures) Weighted Average: 48.1% ▲11.1pp / Unweighted Average: 48.8% / Median: 45.8% ▲10.1pp / Standard Deviation: 22.6%

Plan is the winner in this list. It's 8 ranks and over 11pp better. It has a high deviation as well.
#23 ▼6 Guide (Adventures) Weighted Average: 48.9% ▼7.1pp / Unweighted Average: 48.3% / Median: 52.1% ▼5.8pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3%

Guide is the third Adventures card in a row, but quite a loser. It lost 6 ranks and 7pp. It is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted list.
#22 Enchantress (Empires) Weighted Average: 52.7% / Unweighted Average: 52.6% / Median: 52.1% / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

Enchantress is the fourth Empires card in this part and the also the best one in this whole list, the only one beating 50% just barely. It has a lead of nearly 4pp over Guide. It is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
#21 ▼1 Market Square (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 56.3% ▲5.0pp / Unweighted Average: 58.3% / Median: 58.3% ▲3.5pp / Standard Deviation: 17.8%

Market Square is slowly losing ranks year after year, this year one more rank, but what's significant is that it won 5pp. It is 3 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 01:49:30 pm by Qvist »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2016, 11:37:23 am »
+7

The Best Cards - Part 4/5



#20 ▲3 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 56.3% ▲11.3pp / Unweighted Average: 52.2% / Median: 56.3% ▲11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 21.6%

After being better 5 ranks last year, Lookout climbed 3 more ranks, but also over 11pp, this is a lot. It has a small lead over Market Square of 0.02pp. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
#19 ▼4 Warehouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 56.4% ▼2.9pp / Unweighted Average: 57.4% / Median: 58.3% ▼3.3pp / Standard Deviation: 17.8%

Warehouse was #6 once, but it continues to lose ranks, this year even 4 ranks. It has a small lead over Lookout as well, only 0.01pp, so those last 3 cards are very close together.
#18 =0 Dungeon (Adventures) Weighted Average: 57.3% ▲3.8pp / Unweighted Average: 56.7% / Median: 58.3% ▼1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.9%

Dungeon is better than last year, but still stays on the same rank. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
#17 =0 Scheme (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 58.4% ▲4.5pp / Unweighted Average: 62.7% / Median: 64.6% ▲5.1pp  / Standard Deviation: 16.7%

Just like Dungeon, Scheme has quite a bit better average, but still stays on the same rank. It is 3 ranks better in the unweighted ranking, so it is overrated by weaker players.
#16 ▲3 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 61.3% ▲9.6pp / Unweighted Average: 60.6% / Median: 61.7% ▲6.4pp / Standard Deviation: 16.9%

Village is nearly 10pp and 3 ranks better. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
#15 ▲6 Bonfire (Adventures) Weighted Average: 63.7% ▲13.3pp / Unweighted Average: 61.1% / Median: 68.8% ▲21.2pp / Standard Deviation: 24.9%

Bonfire is another big winner in this list. It is 6 ranks and over 13pp better. The median is even over 20pp better. It has the second highest deviation in this list however. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
#14 ▼3 Watchtower (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 64.5% ▼5.1pp / Unweighted Average: 64.7% / Median: 70.8 ▲0.1pp / Standard Deviation: 23.6%

Watchtower loses 3 ranks and 5pp, but has on the other side even 3 votes on the first rank. That's why it has a high deviation as well. It is voted one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
#13 =0 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 67.6% ▲1.2pp / Unweighted Average: 62.6% / Median: 69.1% ▲0.8pp / Standard Deviation: 22.6%

After rising a lot of ranks the last 2 years, Black Market's stats didn't change a lot, it has the same rank and around the same average. It is the third card in a row with a high deviation. It is voted 2 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking.
#12 =0 Hermit (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 71.3% ▲1.8pp / Unweighted Average: 70.1% / Median: 72.9% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 18.1%

Hermit stays also on the same rank and has quite a solid lead of nearly 4pp over Black Market.
#11 ▼1 Amulet (Adventures) Weighted Average: 73.3% ▲2.2pp / Unweighted Average: 72.6% / Median: 75.0% ▲1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.4%

Amulet lost one rank, but has a better average.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 05:08:26 pm by Qvist »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2016, 11:37:34 am »
+7

The Best Cards - Part 5/5



#10 ▼3 Forager (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 78.4% ▼1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 77.9% / Median: 79.2% ▼4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 14.3%

Forager has a solid lead over Amulet of over 5pp. It lost 3 ranks and a bit in its average. It was voted first once. It has the lowest deviation since the bottom 3. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
#9 =0 Menagerie (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 78.5% ▲0.4pp / Unweighted Average: 76.3% / Median: 79.2% ▼4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 16.1%

Menagerie has a small lead over Forager of 0.07pp. It has the same rank and basically the same average. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
#8 ▲6 Gear (Adventures) Weighted Average: 79.6% ▲15.9pp / Unweighted Average: 77.3% / Median: 83.3% ▲14.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5%

Gear won 6 ranks and over 15pp and is now in the Top 10. It was voted first once. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
#7 ▲1 Ferry (Adventures) Weighted Average: 80.6% ▲0.8pp / Unweighted Average: 79.3% / Median: 85.7% ▲2.4pp / Standard Deviation: 20.9%

Ferry climbed one rank and a little bit in its average. It was voted first 4 times.
#6 =0 Swindler (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 82.3% ▲1.3pp / Unweighted Average: 82.9% / Median: 83.3% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 9.9%

Swindler stays consistently over the years. It didn't change in rank and is only slightly better in its average. It is one rank better in the unweighted ranking. It has a pretty low deviation. It was voted first once.
#5 ▼2 Urchin (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 85.2% ▼1.2pp / Unweighted Average: 80.8% / Median: 88.1% ▲1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1%

After being a big winner last year, Urchin lost 2 ranks again. It is one more rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted first once.
#4 ▲1 Fishing Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 87.0% ▲1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 86.9% / Median: 89.6% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 9.2%

Fishing Village is one rank better and therefore continues to stay in the Top 5. It was voted first 5 times. It has the second lowest deviation in this list. In the unweighted ranking it is one rank higher.
#3 ▲1 Steward (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 88.2% ▲1.9pp / Unweighted Average: 86.7% / Median: 91.7% ▲3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 11.3%

Steward rises one rank and is higher than ever before. It is still one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted first once.
#2 =0 Masquerade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 92.8% ▲0.9pp / Unweighted Average: 91.4% / Median: 95.8% ▼1.2pp / Standard Deviation: 9.9%

Masquerade is just like nearly always second again. It has the third lowest deviation in this list. It was voted first 14 times.
#1 =0 Ambassador (Seaside) Weighted Average: 95.5% ▲1.3pp / Unweighted Average: 94.7% / Median: 97.9% ▲0.9pp / Standard Deviation: 13.6%

And Ambassador wins again this list. It was voted first 24 times.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 06:31:05 pm by Qvist »
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schadd

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2016, 01:28:52 pm »
0

i don't think i bothered to change my ranking for banquet when somebody reminded me it can't gain victory cards
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2016, 03:16:15 pm »
+3

Banquet is a LITTLE better than that. It's nice for getting fuel for Forager or Spice Merchant or Trade Route or whatever. Opening it to get a Sentry early isn't always absolutely terrible.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2016, 09:18:38 pm »
0

Banquet is a pretty bad event. I'm sure I ranked it lower than the list.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2016, 09:43:08 pm »
0

I guessed on Banquet's power level since I haven't played with it yet (I have empires but haven't used all the event & landmarks yet), but in my guess I agreed with Chris. It's not that good, but it does get you a $5 card in the first two turns. That can be a major benefit.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2016, 10:47:22 am »
+3

Next year's ranking will be hard for Fortune Teller.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2016, 11:45:08 am »
0

I ranked Banquet last, although that may have been a bit hyperbolic.  Since then I actually won a game with Banquet.  Turns out Banquet/Gardens is pretty good.

Opening with Banquet is far, far inferior to simply opening 5/2.  Your fiver is almost twice as likely to appear on turn 5, and you will draw it less often for the rest of the game.  I think the best use of Banquet is to commit to a slog.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2016, 01:06:54 pm »
0

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2016, 01:08:43 pm »
+1

farmer's market is so wrong. it looks like it sucks but that's only because it costs $3 and has +buy
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2016, 01:14:14 pm »
+1

After all the catapult hate I'm surprised we haven't seen it yet.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2016, 01:54:15 pm »
+1

Farmer's Market is really good, schadd is right. And whoever voted Tunnel last is a troll.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2016, 01:58:10 pm »
0

After all the catapult hate I'm surprised we haven't seen it yet.
It's way worse than Farmer's Market.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2016, 02:02:15 pm »
+1

After all the catapult hate I'm surprised we haven't seen it yet.
It's way worse than Farmer's Market.
Thats not true.
It is closer to forager than farmer's market.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2016, 02:04:59 pm »
0

After all the catapult hate I'm surprised we haven't seen it yet.
It's way worse than Farmer's Market.
Thats not true.
It is closer to forager than farmer's market.
Yeah not way worse, I just really like Farmer's Market.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2016, 02:16:36 pm »
+2

Workshop is still horribly underrated, even worse than last time. Do most people seriously think that it's worse than Develop or Loan?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2016, 02:41:29 pm »
0

Workshop is still horribly underrated, even worse than last time. Do most people seriously think that it's worse than Develop or Loan?

Yeah, this is beyond me. There are a lot more $3s and $4s worth getting now, especially with all of the cantrips added in the second editions.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2016, 03:10:19 pm »
0

Count me as one of the people that ranked Farmers' Market in the bottom ten. Hard to judge a card like this without having played with it. I don't see the appeal of a card that takes two terminal action plays before it becomes a Woodcutter. It looks best when you use it to snipe the VP tokens being collected by the opponent. If you really need the +buy, you have to re-buy it after it trashes itself. I'm sure it's better than Woodcutter, but how many other cards does it beat?

I've made good use of Workshop and variants midturn before reshuffles enough times to put Workshop above the bottom 10.

I may have severely overrated Loan.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2016, 04:16:11 pm »
+3

Loan is like 30 ranks too low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2016, 05:30:57 pm »
+1

Loan is not a top 10 card.  That's absurd.  There are a lot of really good $3 cards.

I'm pleased to see Plan has raised in the ranks.  IMO, it was the biggest misrank in the $3 cards last year.

Can somebody explain why Farmer's Market is good?  I'm in the same camp as Qvist and markusin.  I haven't played with it much, but it hasn't impressed me at all.

Finally, Banquet.  I think this event is underrated.  There are some situations where adding Copper is helpful.  For VP: Fountain, Triumph, and Gardens.  For payload, lategame: with Apothecary, Spice Merchant, Forager, or Bank.  In Slogs: Banquet + Witch seems especially strong.  And sometimes, a $5 card is so important that you'll want it despite the Coppers.  Getting the last Governor, Wharf, or Hunting Party with Banquet will often be worth it.  Getting an early Sentry, Junk Dealer, Witch, or Cultist could be worth it.  With Bonfire and Banquet, you can turn a 3/4 opening into a 5/0, which is sometimes worth it.  With a Watchtower in hand, you can trash Coppers gained with Banquet.  With Trader, you can turn the Coppers into Silver.  Is Banquet + Counting House a thing?  Has anybody simulated it?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2016, 05:41:12 pm »
0

Is Banquet + Counting House a thing?
I have played that + forum and i won but i am not really sure without the forum it will work.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2016, 05:55:38 pm »
+2

Banquet/Counting House is definitely a thing. According to sim results it beats Gear-BM slightly, and should do pretty well against attack-bm aswell since attacks are pretty bad against it.

There is not much else Banquet has going for it, though
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2016, 08:26:45 pm »
+1

I have pretty limited experience with Empires but I think Farmers' Market and Catapult are both a bit high.  Banquet is about right; I think it's decent enough, but there are very few terrible $3 cards, especially compared to the $4s.

Smugglers and Workshop seem like they should both be closer together, with workshop maybe a few ranks too low and Smugglers a few too high.  Terminal gainers that have their own strengths and weaknesses seem pretty similarly strong to me.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2016, 09:31:06 pm »
+2

I can't believe Storeroom is so low.  I would buy it before any of the 5 cards ranked above it other than possibly Shanty Town.  It should at least be in the mid to late 20's.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2016, 11:25:28 pm »
+5

Can somebody explain why Farmer's Market is good?  I'm in the same camp as Qvist and markusin.  I haven't played with it much, but it hasn't impressed me at all.


I've played Farmer's Market 7 or 8 times, and each time it performed beyond my expectations.  Sometimes you really want the +3$ or +4$, sometimes you really want the 4VP. Sometimes you want that VP multiple times, and the +Buy and large chunks of money help you in other ways.

I'm still a little bit weary of it because it doesn't read like a powerful card (especially since it starts as a half-Herbalist and Woodcutter), but the real power I've gleaned is twofold: how well you play it and how well you outplay your opponent. I played it in a game where I was falling behind once when my opponent skipped it, and cracking it for 4 VP twice was enough to clinch a victory by two points. That was a case where the +Buy and larger coin amounts were especially useful incidentally. In other games, wherein my opponent and I have both gone for them (which is the majority of games), being able to play multiple a turn (or none) to control what I get and what my opponent gets gives the card extra potency. Giving your opponent a bad Herbalist and Woodcutter while you get the Horse Traders, Wine Merchant, Distant Lands options is pretty stellar.

Against a better opponent, though, it probably comes down more to shuffle luck and how many you can play, which means you have to consider how much you really want to invest in a card that could backfire or how much you want to keep your opponent from getting the good parts of the card.

I ranked the card slightly higher than it is, somewhat because it has been personally useful, but also because I think it presents some really interesting tactical decisions. I'm definitely looking forward to testing it more.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2016, 11:47:24 pm »
0

Assuming you are playing a good opponent (this is a good thing to assume) farmers market is just some way of capitalizing on having more control over your deck than your opponent. If your opponent is playing bm you can use this as a stack of very slow distant lands with cash and costing 3 to compensate.

That said it is not very strong because terminal payload have a high opportunity cost because it is a terminal stop card and most decks dont have much room for mediocre benefit terminal stop cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2016, 12:16:00 am »
0

Loan is not a top 10 card.  That's absurd.  There are a lot of really good $3 cards.

Yes it is. Its ability is almost as strong as Junk Dealer's, and it costs only €3. That's bonkers.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2016, 01:01:06 am »
+2

The Farming Village meme died a few months ago, Awaclus had to find a new one to discredit his Dominion advice.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2016, 05:27:18 am »
0

The Farming Village meme died a few months ago, Awaclus had to find a new one to discredit his Dominion advice.

Yeah because €3 Junk Dealers are totally useless.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2016, 05:31:43 am »
+1

Loan is like 30 ranks too low.

I had Loan second-to-last, just above Chancellor, and I stand by it.

As I said in the voting topic:

"Loan sucks. You use it to get rid of Copper, but it's actually a Copper on play itself, so you need to play it twice before your deck is any better than it used to be without it, ASSUMING you don't skip your better Treasures instead. Which is not a good assumption as it happens all the time. Any other trasher is better, even Trade Route. You have to be really desperate before Loan is worth it."

Loan is not even close to a $3 Junk Dealer. Loans don't draw a card and Junk Dealers can actually trash Estates, which is WAY more important than trashing Coppers.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2016, 05:51:14 am »
+1

Loan does  effectively draw a card - the one that it trashes. It's also non-terminal and gives you a coin. Stats-wise, it's exactly a Junk Dealer. Trashing Estates is not that much more important than trashing Coppers either, mostly it matters in the early game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2016, 07:44:25 am »
0

I remember pairing Loan with Masquerade to good effect in a Cultist game with no +Actions. Loan has a bonus of not being drawn dead.

I wouldn't say it's on the level of Junk Dealer because Junk Dealer supports both engines and "good stuff" decks with a few quality treasures while Loan will cease to be reliable if you add treasures to your deck, for example the new treasures in Empires.

Basically, Loan is great for Treasure-less engines, but is pretty bad in most other cases. This makes Loan's usability much more narrow than your Foragers and Junk Dealers.

Edit: okay maybe "most other cases" is a bit harsh but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say. I had it at Rank 25.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 07:48:06 am by markusin »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2016, 09:28:47 am »
+1

costs only €3
Is €3 worth more or less than a Potion?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2016, 09:33:32 am »
+1

You guys are really underestimating Farmer's Market. 4 VP and a bunch of money sometimes isn't too bad in decks that can spare it, and the +Buy is helpful for keeping its own strategy going. You generally want a pair of them if you can afford it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2016, 10:55:35 am »
0

Any sort of Throne Room variant really helps out Farmer's Market. It's such a slow card that benefits from multiple plays.

Uncontested it's a ton of money and points. Still not sure how good it is overall though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2016, 11:07:20 am »
+2

Also forgot to mention that Catapult kinda sucks and we should have seen it by now. Certainly way worse than Farmer's Market.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2016, 11:58:38 am »
0

costs only €3
Is €3 worth more or less than a Potion?

It's worth $3 when you're using a Finnish keyboard layout on a phone.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2016, 12:06:00 pm »
+4

Loan does  effectively draw a card - the one that it trashes. It's also non-terminal and gives you a coin. Stats-wise, it's exactly a Junk Dealer. Trashing Estates is not that much more important than trashing Coppers either, mostly it matters in the early game.

You were almost correct until this part. Trashing Estates is WAY more important than trashing Coppers and why am I even responding to your troll post? Man.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2016, 12:11:30 pm »
+1

I expected to see Catapult right now and was set to argue that maybe it should be a bit higher.  But since we haven't seen it yet, clearly it's being overrated.

Catapult, it's really bad.  If you trash a copper, it's like a Militia that doesn't give you money.  If you trash an estate, it's like a Trade Route without buy.  Later you can trash good cards to curse your opponent, but that hurts your own deck almost as much as your opponent's.  I mean, if you can spend an action to trash a $3, then your opponent can spend an action to trash their curse, and it comes out about the same for both of you, only you lost a $3.

In the previews, people were saying Catapult looks great, Rocks looks awful.  It's quite the opposite.  Rocks is the main saving grace of Catapult.  In our group, as we've explored the strategy-space of Catapult, it seems the best thing you can do is buy ALL the Catapults, and then trash Catapults and Rocks to curse your opponents.  The opposing player has to decide between buying a catapult (which accelerates towards Rocks, and is a terrible card) and not buying a catapult (possibly losing access to the only junker and trasher).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2016, 12:14:36 pm »
0

Loan does  effectively draw a card - the one that it trashes. It's also non-terminal and gives you a coin. Stats-wise, it's exactly a Junk Dealer. Trashing Estates is not that much more important than trashing Coppers either, mostly it matters in the early game.

You were almost correct until this part. Trashing Estates is WAY more important than trashing Coppers and why am I even responding to your troll post? Man.

The difference between having an Estate and having a Copper is just as important as the difference between having or not having a Peddler. That is not a huge difference relatively when you take into account that either way, you're thinning your deck by one whole card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2016, 12:32:56 pm »
+3

A free Peddler is super good the first three shuffles (counting from t1)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2016, 12:38:57 pm »
0

Loan is nice because of the extra $1 (as compared to say, Forager).  However, the extra $1 is pretty much cancelled out by the first time you trash a copper rather than an Estate.  So yes you're getting an extra $1 in the first shuffle, but you just lose in the long run.

That said, Forager is a top card, and I could see Loan being somewhat closer to it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2016, 12:48:19 pm »
+1

Trashing Estates is not that much more important than trashing Coppers either, mostly it matters in the early game.
Whatever matters in the early game, implicitly matters a lot in the rest of the game, because the advantage cascades from there.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2016, 01:20:48 pm »
0

Loan is better than Forager for sure. With Loan, you get to buy something for €1 and 4 cards. With Forager, you get to buy something with just 3 cards and essentially the benefit of what was the worst card in your hand. Yes, you get a better card quality for future shuffles if you trash an Estate, but Loan gives you a better purchase right now, which is usually more important in the long run.

If both Forager and Loan are present, the odds are that you should be having at least one copy of both.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2016, 01:33:59 pm »
0

If both Forager and Loan are present, the odds are that you should be having at least one copy of both.

That's only because you can eventually Forage the Loan and get more out of it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2016, 01:42:53 pm »
0

If both Forager and Loan are present, the odds are that you should be having at least one copy of both.

That's only because you can eventually Forage the Loan and get more out of it.

No, it's only because Loan can't trash Estates and ideally you want to trash them too.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2016, 01:54:38 pm »
+1

If both Forager and Loan are present, the odds are that you should be having at least one copy of both.

That's only because you can eventually Forage the Loan and get more out of it.

No, it's only because Loan can't trash Estates and ideally you want to trash them too.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2016, 01:55:04 pm »
+1

Lookout is better than both of these
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2016, 01:57:27 pm »
0

The main problem with Loan is you can't always skip Silvers. Other than that, it's pretty good. But the fact that you have limited control over trashing if you want Silvers or kingdom treasures makes it not a top 10 card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2016, 01:58:57 pm »
0

If both Forager and Loan are present, the odds are that you should be having at least one copy of both.

That's only because you can eventually Forage the Loan and get more out of it.

No, it's only because Loan can't trash Estates and ideally you want to trash them too.



No it's not. People think it's bad becausd they played with it back when Treasure based decks were more common, but these days I buy Loan pretty much every time and it rarely hits a card I don't want to trash.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2016, 02:06:58 pm »
0

Loan isn't a bad card, but I prefer both Lookout and Forager to it.

I had Loan at 41, with Catapult and Trade Route below it. Probably could have been higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2016, 02:08:57 pm »
0

Does anybody have data on Loan gain rate for top players?  Loan is very good when:
  • You want to trash Coppers.
  • You don't need treasures for economy (or your economy comes from a strong Silver gainer like Jack of All Trades).
  • There is another way to thin Estates - that isn't better than Loan at thinning Coppers.
What is the likelihood that those three conditions are met in a random kingdom with Loan?  30%?  Loan is good enough in these situations that it certainly avoids a bottom 10 spot.  But better than Forager?  A great trasher that is useful in 70+% games?  No way.

(And yes, sometimes Loan can be worth a purchase when one of the last two conditions isn't met.  But Loan is a sad card in those cases.)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:11:52 pm by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2016, 02:16:02 pm »
0

Does anybody have data on Loan gain rate for top players?  Loan is very good when:
  • You want to trash Coppers.
  • You don't need treasures for economy (or your economy comes from a strong Silver gainer like Jack of All Trades).
  • There is another way to thin Estates - that isn't better than Loan at thinning Coppers.
What is the likelihood that those three conditions are met in a random kingdom with Loan?  30%?  Loan is good enough in these situations that it certainly avoids a bottom 10 spot.  But better than Forager?  A great trasher that is useful in 70+% games?  No way.

(And yes, sometimes Loan can be worth a purchase when one of the last two conditions isn't met.  But Loan is a sad card in those cases.)
First point is always except in slogs (though sometimes the opportunity cost is not worth it.
Second point is a downside, but Loan still works fairly well with a single Silver.
I don't see why there needs to be a way to trash Estates for Loan to be good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2016, 02:19:00 pm »
0

I think it was Awaclus that mentioned somewhere that opening Loan can in fact give you a decent chance at spiking $5 on the second reshuffle, or at least a more-decent-than-most-people-think chance, because of how it increases your money-to-Estate ratio.  Not sure his (her?) exact wording, or what the exact probabilities are (obviously, they depend on your other opener), but this mindset has made Loan slightly more attractive to me since.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2016, 02:22:25 pm »
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I think it was Awaclus that mentioned somewhere that opening Loan can in fact give you a decent chance at spiking $5 on the second reshuffle, or at least a more-decent-than-most-people-think chance, because of how it increases your money-to-Estate ratio.  Not sure his (her?) exact wording, or what the exact probabilities are (obviously, they depend on your other opener), but this mindset has made Loan slightly more attractive to me since.

Huh? What is that in comparison to? Compared to opening nothing, opening Loan would give you a somewhat better chance at hitting $5 on your second shuffle, sure. But only by the exact same amount that opening Copper would. Less than opening Silver or any Terminal Silver or drawer.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2016, 02:32:10 pm »
0

I think it was Awaclus that mentioned somewhere that opening Loan can in fact give you a decent chance at spiking $5 on the second reshuffle, or at least a more-decent-than-most-people-think chance, because of how it increases your money-to-Estate ratio.  Not sure his (her?) exact wording, or what the exact probabilities are (obviously, they depend on your other opener), but this mindset has made Loan slightly more attractive to me since.

Huh? What is that in comparison to? Compared to opening nothing, opening Loan would give you a somewhat better chance at hitting $5 on your second shuffle, sure. But only by the exact same amount that opening Copper would. Less than opening Silver or any Terminal Silver or drawer.

You answered your own question.  Opening, say, Loan/Oasis obviously is not as good for hitting $5 as opening Silver/Oasis is.  But Loan does give you a FAR greater chance at hitting $5 than other weak thinners like Lookout, Trade Route, Island, etc. give you because it both (1) gives you a non-zero economy right now, and (2) only requires 1 card from your hand opposed to 2 (ok, so does Lookout).

EDIT: Also, Loan > Forager for hitting $5 early.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:36:06 pm by Dingan »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2016, 02:34:01 pm »
+1

If Loan and Counterfeit were on the same board, I'd open Silver/Silver and rush Counterfeit
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2016, 02:38:56 pm »
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I don't see why there needs to be a way to trash Estates for Loan to be good.

There doesn't have to be a way to trash Estates for Loan to be good.  But Loan is at its best when it works alongside another trasher that can trash starting Estates, Loan itself, and perhaps some Coppers.  I consider Loan a sad card when it's the only trasher, but I probably need to overcome my bias against trashing Coppers but not Estates.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2016, 02:53:17 pm »
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If Loan and Counterfeit were on the same board, I'd open Silver/Silver and rush Counterfeit

I'd open Loan/Silver because that gives you decent chances of hitting €5, super better tempo, and Loan even has some synergy with Counterfeit.

Loan definitely shines when used in combination with another trasher, especially Masquerade. That way you can start getting super thin super fast without giving up many early game buys thanks to Loan's excellence in the early game, and the other trasher can finish the job when Loan is starting to struggle. As a lone trasher (pun intended), it's not so good because you'll probably open Loan/Loan and if you cant't skip Silver, that can get somewhat awkward pretty fast. It's still better than most give it credit for in that situation.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:56:32 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2016, 03:08:36 pm »
+1

Does anybody have data on Loan gain rate for top players?  Loan is very good when:
  • You want to trash Coppers.
  • You don't need treasures for economy (or your economy comes from a strong Silver gainer like Jack of All Trades).
  • There is another way to thin Estates - that isn't better than Loan at thinning Coppers.
What is the likelihood that those three conditions are met in a random kingdom with Loan?  30%?  Loan is good enough in these situations that it certainly avoids a bottom 10 spot.  But better than Forager?  A great trasher that is useful in 70+% games?  No way.

(And yes, sometimes Loan can be worth a purchase when one of the last two conditions isn't met.  But Loan is a sad card in those cases.)

Just want to note that Loan is really terrible with Silver gainers; you might only trash 3-4 Copper with it before it becomes more of a nuisance than a help.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2016, 03:09:33 pm »
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weak thinners like Lookout
Lookout is strong but isnt very good at hitting 5.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2016, 03:18:07 pm »
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Just want to note that Loan is really terrible with Silver gainers; you might only trash 3-4 Copper with it before it becomes more of a nuisance than a help.

I'm well aware that Loan becomes awkward the moment you add a Silver to your deck.  But, Loan works a little better with Silver gainers than Silver that you have to buy, because (a) the opportunity cost of the Silver is lower and (b) you might want to trash some of those Silvers at some point.  For that reason, Loan + Jack is pretty good, and Loan + Amulet could be decent.  Mostly because Jack/Amulet trash Estates, but Loan is better/able to trash Copper.  Trashing 3-4 Copper is just fine in a lot of decks.  At the point when you have multiple Silver, you certainly won't mind discarding them from your next hand, and you might want to trash them.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2016, 03:39:47 pm »
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I think amulet is better at trashing coppers than loan but worse on economy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2016, 03:49:28 pm »
+1

I think Loan suffers a lot from being too much of a "middle ground" opening.  It's a decent trasher, and that extra $1 boosts your economy in the second shuffle.  Unfortunately, it just isn't quite enough to significantly boost your chances of hitting $5.

For comparison, consider how often a silver lets you hit $6 on the second shuffle.  Sometimes it happens, but don't count on it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2016, 05:08:16 pm »
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I expected to see Catapult right now and was set to argue that maybe it should be a bit higher.  But since we haven't seen it yet, clearly it's being overrated.

Catapult, it's really bad.  If you trash a copper, it's like a Militia that doesn't give you money.  If you trash an estate, it's like a Trade Route without buy.  Later you can trash good cards to curse your opponent, but that hurts your own deck almost as much as your opponent's.  I mean, if you can spend an action to trash a $3, then your opponent can spend an action to trash their curse, and it comes out about the same for both of you, only you lost a $3.

In the previews, people were saying Catapult looks great, Rocks looks awful.  It's quite the opposite.  Rocks is the main saving grace of Catapult.  In our group, as we've explored the strategy-space of Catapult, it seems the best thing you can do is buy ALL the Catapults, and then trash Catapults and Rocks to curse your opponents.  The opposing player has to decide between buying a catapult (which accelerates towards Rocks, and is a terrible card) and not buying a catapult (possibly losing access to the only junker and trasher).

Hrm, I have Rocks above Catapult in my rankings, but not by much. I can't see Catapult being worth it most of the time without Rocks coming into the picture. I suppose the Silver gained from Rocks is not so bad when Catapult is slowing down the game.

Maybe Catapult has some cute tricks with on-trash cards like Feodum and Rats? Those cards are not treasures themselves, however (Feodum gives you Silver on trash though).
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 05:09:27 pm by markusin »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2016, 12:29:11 pm »
+3

The great thing about Loan is how well it combos with Farming Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2016, 01:13:18 pm »
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The great thing about Loan is how well it combos with Farming Village.

Well, it's certainly true that a €4 vanilla Village benefits from an elite trasher like Loan. However, it's not a combo.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2016, 01:50:05 pm »
0

Part 3 aka the "Rant Episode"

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2016, 02:27:39 pm »
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Plan should be higher. Still underestimated despite the big jump.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2016, 02:41:45 pm »
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Plan should be higher. Still underestimated despite the big jump.

Qvist apparently disagrees with you. ;)

I think Enchantress should be higher.  It curbstomps any sort of BM strategy that plays one terminal Action per turn.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2016, 02:51:48 pm »
+2

Plan should be higher. Still underestimated despite the big jump.

Qvist apparently disagrees with you. ;)

I think Enchantress should be higher.  It curbstomps any sort of BM strategy that plays one terminal Action per turn.
Whats a BM strategy?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2016, 02:52:10 pm »
+2

Plan should be higher. Still underestimated despite the big jump.

Qvist apparently disagrees with you. ;)

I think Enchantress should be higher.  It curbstomps any sort of BM strategy that plays one terminal Action per turn.
Whats a BM strategy?

It's when you buy as many things as possible from BM.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2016, 02:59:34 pm »
+2

Plan is still underrated, Market Square is still overrated. Wishing Well might be underrated too.

Re: BM strategy

Another BM strategy is playing 1 Copper every 4 minutes until your opponent resigns.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 03:01:25 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2016, 03:02:26 pm »
0

I think Catapult... kinda sucks? I tried to articulate reasons on Discord but I probably need some online games to back this one up.

Enchantress is easily a top 20 card. The Wharf draw is consistently great, and the attack can be devastating on certain boards particularly when combined with a discard attack. It really fucks up early game trashing and it basically completely changes how you approach a board.

Expedition is also really good, but maybe there's nowhere higher to put it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2016, 03:05:25 pm »
+3

They can't all be the most accurately ranked cards ever.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2016, 03:08:34 pm »
0

Isn't Catapult perfectly fine though? It's a slow trasher but it gives you econ and a lot of the time it Militias your opponent.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2016, 03:30:57 pm »
+1

Catapult: One thing that makes Catapult difficult to rank is that it's so very bad against itself.  Trashing is weaker when you just would have discarded those cards anyway.  And having a Catapult in a three-card hand is really sad.  Maybe this means Catapult feels weaker than it is, because I'm more focused on how it benefits me than how it hurts the opponent.

Plan: Plan is like a cantrip trasher that you have in hand every turn, but which can only trash if you buy the right card.  Often there's a cheap card around that you want a few copies of anyway.

Gladiator: Contrary to what was said in the video, I think Fortune should hardly be considered when ranking Gladiator.  It has the weakest synergy of all the split piles.  When Fortune is revealed, everyone can get nearly the same use out of it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2016, 03:53:45 pm »
0

Interesting to see how much disagreement there is about Catapult. I can imagine that it's hard to rank.

Good to see Guide is steadily dropping, because it's really mediocre.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2016, 04:06:28 pm »
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Chariot Race is better than Wishing Well. Plan should be a little higher. I'm okay with where Market Square is, but I think it's still a little underrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2016, 04:18:07 pm »
0

I think Enchantress should be higher.  It curbstomps any sort of BM strategy that plays one terminal Action per turn.

But, because we often play against humans with brains, the money player adjusts and buys a few more terminal actions.  The Enchantress attack probably does the most work against Potion-cost cards: Familiar, Scrying Pool, Apothecary, Alchemist.  I think Enchantress belongs in the middle of the pack.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2016, 04:50:10 pm »
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Catapult and Chariot Race are too high. Market Square could be a bit lower. Gladiator could be a bit higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2016, 05:07:06 pm »
+3

chariot race is kinda good. the few times i have played with it, deck construction doesn't actually matter as much as i thought it would (spoilers: empires has a lot of engine mirrors, as we imagined) but in practice it activates a little bit less than half the time; in an engine mirror, as far as i've observed, there is rarely a way to reasonably increase the average cost of your deck, and also debt/potion/the "less than" restriction pushes it down a little bit, and there is rarely a way to cheat (your spies probably should have just been more chariot races)


that said, i mean, +$.4/+.4VP is busto
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2016, 05:24:31 pm »
+2

Plan: Plan is like a cantrip trasher that you have in hand every turn, but which can only trash if you buy the right card.  Often there's a cheap card around that you want a few copies of anyway.

Well said!  It's also important to think about Plan in terms of shuffles.  You'll want to buy Plan on turn 1 or 3, so you know what you're going to buy (and trash) on turns 2 or 4, respectively.  So, Plan has an immediate effect of trashing an Estate or Curse from your deck.  That effect alone might be worth $3 and a buy.  But that isn't the end, of course.  Plan can trash additional cards on future turns.  Most boards have a cheap card that you intend to buy multiple copies of.  Plan works best in conjunction with a Copper trasher, or in situations where you don't want/need to trash Coppers.

Let's make two comparisons to help you grok Plan:

Compare Plan with a good non-terminal flexible trasher like Raze or Lookout:
+ Plan can trash one shuffle earlier (huge!)
- Multiple Plans don't stack like multiple Razes or Lookouts, but it works equally well in conjunction with another trasher
+ Plan never misses shuffles and is always available for use.
- You need to buy a specific action card to trash with Plan.
+ A single Plan can trash multiple cards per turn with multiple buys (edge-casey)
- Plan cannot be gained midturn (edge-casey)
+ Plan doesn't clog up a lategame deck like Lookout
- Plan doesn't accelerate cycling like Lookout
. Compared to Raze, Plan is worse at Estate trashing, but better at Copper or Curse trashing.
Plan is almost as good as Raze & Lookout.  Better in some situations, worse in others.

Compare Plan with Bonfire:
- Plan trashes one fewer junk card immediately (before the next shuffle)
+ Plan can trash an Estates and Curses
+ Plan can trash many more cards in the long run
There are plenty of situations where Plan is better than Bonfire.  Experience with Ambassador has taught us that thinning two Copper is slightly better than thinning one Estate.  At least, in situations where Ambassador is in the kingdom and you have it.  But that isn't the whole story with Plan, because you can trash more cards with a single Plan than with a single Bonfire, but all trashes but the first are delayed.

I hope I have demonstrated that Plan is of similar value to strong (but not elite) trashers like Lookout and Bonfire (which, incidentally, haven't appeared in the $3 card list yet).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2016, 08:08:54 pm »
+1

Most of these I had pretty close to where they are in this list, but I had Gladiator #12 (it's a terminal gold the majority of the time -not bad for $3), Doctor #37, and Catapult #7. I also had Bonfire lower than most of these.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2016, 09:06:38 pm »
0

Plan is basically "+1 Card, + 1 Action, trash a card from your hand" for $3 when you buy the card with the Trashing Token on it. It's lack of economy production when trashing stuff is the main drawback that I noticed on it.

Edit: oh wait, this was already said by trivialknot.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 09:08:59 pm by markusin »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #88 on: December 14, 2016, 04:02:19 am »
0

Chariotnrace when you have all the peddlers is nice
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #89 on: December 14, 2016, 11:18:46 pm »
+5

So, Catapult.  I think this card is significantly better than its current placement.  I'll try to explain why.

Disclaimer: I've only played a few games with Catapult, and this card is especially hard to grok.  I'm not surprised that it has a high deviation.

If your gut reaction is that Catapult is a weak card, please recognize that it is a thinner + attack card.  The only other thinner + attack cards (Ambassador + Mercenary) happen to be some of the strongest cards in the game.  Catapult may not be as powerful of those cards, but it is in elite company.  The thinner + attack cards are deceptively powerful, because they improve your deck while making it difficult for your opponent to improve their deck.  To a new Dominion player, playing Ambassador might feel like it isn't accomplishing much: you often end with two bad cards in hand and nothing to buy.  Despite this subjective feeling, Ambassador is one of the most potent cards in all of Dominion.  Urchin/Mercenary is similar.  It doesn't feel powerful to buy and play weak cantrips multiple turns in a row.  It doesn't even feel great to play a Mercenary and end up with $4 or something.  Yet, pursuing Mercenary is correct on most boards.  These thinner + attack cards don't feel as powerful as they are.  Catapult is no exception.

I'm going to divide all kingdoms (involving Catapult) into three types: those where Catapult is the only Estate/Curse trasher, those with another single-target Estate/Curse trasher, and those with an elite multi-card trasher.

Catapult as only Estate/Curse trasher
Catapult can give out Curses.  If player A goes for Catapult and player B doesn't, player B will have Curses in their deck that they can't trash.  How fast can Catapult reliably give out Curses?  Consider a baseline strategy of only using the base cards and the Catapult/Rocks pile.  Player A buys Catapult on turns 1-5 and Rocks on turns 6-10 (unless they get an unlucky $3 hand).  Ideally, Player A trashes Estates on turn 3 & 4 (sometimes Catapults collide, or miss the shuffle, or miss Estates).  Starting on turn 5, Catapult collisions will be more common.  The first two times Catapults collide, player A trashes Catapult with Catapult and gives out a Curse.  By turn 7, the Catapult player will have given out at least one Curse.  This is on par with Witch BM with a 3/4 opening.  Available starting with turn 8, Rocks become a top trash priority, which junk, reduce handsize, and provide +$3 for player A.  Indeed, almost every turn from turn 8 onward will either junk (trashing a colliding Catapult), reduce handsize (trashing a Copper), or both (trashing Rocks or Silver).  Trashing all of the Rocks and two Catapults will give out seven Curses (realistic by turn 15).  That is an oppressive amount of junk.  Plus, player B will often be subject to handsize attacks.  Player B won't be buying many Provinces.  Player A, meanwhile, is steadily improving his economy with the Silver from Rock gains and trashes (10 total).  Player A can either rush Duchies (two other piles will easily empty) or buy a few Golds and go for Provinces.

And this is just a baseline.  There are other kingdom cards that can help the Catapult player (villages, card draw, sifting, gainers).  Catapult is going to be the dominant strategy on most of these boards.  Exceptions include especially potent defensive cards (e.g. Watchtower), powerful junkers that can give out Curses faster (e.g. Young Witch w weak bane), and fast strategies that aren't crippled by attacks (e.g. Rebuild).

Catapult with another Estate/Curse trasher
Suppose the kingdom includes another card that can trash Estates and Curses, like: Ratcatcher, Raze, Lookout, Forager, Amulet, Hermit, Salvager, Junk Dealer, etc...  Might it be best to avoid Catapult?  I think not.  In most cases, opening Catapult + other trasher (or Silver to get a $5 trasher) will be dominant.  Why?  Catapult isn't especially good at trashing Estates and Curses, but it is very strong when it trashes Copper.  Having one of the aforementioned trashers frees up Catapult to trash Coppers almost exclusively.  The handsize attack will really slow down your opponent.  Have you ever tried to ignore Urchin in favor of a non-elite trasher?  It's really painful to discard down to three when you're trying to trash.  Either you give up on trashing, or you spend your turn doing nothing but trashing a single card.  Playing against Catapult can be similar.  Buying a Catapult of your own won't solve the problem, but now you and your opponent will suffer together.

Exceptions exist, of course.  If you open with a power $5 trasher like Junk Dealer or Sentry, you can probably ignore Catapult.  Masquerade draws, which means it combines poorly with other trashers and it can mitigate Catapult's attack.  With Masquerade, you still might want to pick up a Catapult later on if you can orchestrate a handsize attack followed by Masquerade.  I have no idea how Jack of all Trades and Catapult get along.  Jack can counter the Catapult attack, but Jack loves Copper trashing and Catapult likes Silver gaining, so maybe they are a potent combination.  Are there Copper-trashers that outclass Catapult in these situations?  I'm not sure.  Spice Merchant and Counterfeit stand a chance.  It will probably depend on the rest of the kingdom.

Catapult with an elite trasher
Suppose the kingdom includes a card or event that can trash multiple cards in one turn: Donate, Chapel, Ambassador, Steward, Remake, etc...  Here, Catapult is not a very strong opening.  Even if the Catapult player gets lucky and hits the Chapel player with a handsize attack with their Chapel in hand, they can still trash two cards of their choice, while the Catapult player needs to trash Copper and not Estates to keep the attack going.  It's a losing battle.  Catapult is even worse against the two-card trashers; the discard attack is almost useless.  Still, Catapult isn't a dead card on these boards.  It might be worth picking up a Catapult after the thinning phase for payload, especially if there is an easy way to gain $3+ cards.

Catapult is a strong card in almost every kingdom.  It is usually game-warping if it's the only card that can trash Curses.  It is a strong Copper trasher in combination with an Estate/Curse trasher.  And in the rare kingdoms where it is too slow to trash, it can still be valuable as payload.  Similar to Ambassador and Urchin, it might not be pleasant to play with or against Catapult, but that is a consequence of its strength, not its weakness.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2016, 12:38:35 am »
+1

it might not be pleasant to play with or against Catapult
I disagree with this part.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2016, 07:42:09 am »
0

Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.

Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2016, 08:44:14 am »
+1

Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.

Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.

That doesn't make Catapult bad, maybe it makes you dislike Catapult games because they're slower. The mirror scenario is very uninteresting when evaluating the strength of the card since that means buying Catapult has been a good choice there.

So maybe you should consider how bad your trade route is when you're opponent is using catapults!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2016, 09:24:44 am »
0

Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.

Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.

That doesn't make Catapult bad, maybe it makes you dislike Catapult games because they're slower. The mirror scenario is very uninteresting when evaluating the strength of the card since that means buying Catapult has been a good choice there.

So maybe you should consider how bad your trade route is when you're opponent is using catapults!

Yeah, but... with a better trasher, you can trash 2 cards and it doesn't matter that your turn was a wash anyway. And when you aren't attacked (which isn't every turn), you have more space to actually build other stuff in. If there's no better trasher, yeah Catapult is nicer than Trade Route, no disputing that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2016, 11:23:19 am »
+1

Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.

Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.

That doesn't make Catapult bad, maybe it makes you dislike Catapult games because they're slower. The mirror scenario is very uninteresting when evaluating the strength of the card since that means buying Catapult has been a good choice there.

So maybe you should consider how bad your trade route is when you're opponent is using catapults!

Yeah, but... with a better trasher, you can trash 2 cards and it doesn't matter that your turn was a wash anyway. And when you aren't attacked (which isn't every turn), you have more space to actually build other stuff in. If there's no better trasher, yeah Catapult is nicer than Trade Route, no disputing that.

What made me initially think Catapult is weak is that you have to give up a $3 or more card without playing that card on the same turn to give out a Curse. What I hadn't considered is that Catapult is good at trashing itself, and buying lots of Catapults helps get to Rocks. But then, you're buying multiple $3s just to give out curses semi-reliably. I'd only consider this if I'm anticipating a sloggish game where I want a bunch of Silvers from Rocks.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2016, 12:14:56 pm »
0

This is now going into the realm of spitballing and not as much experience, but I think at least before the later game, the Cursing is more defensive than offensive. You basically force them to not attack you once to clear the Curse you gave them, in exchange for a relatively cheap Buy at some point. That isn't a great tradeoffto do offensively unless you have an engine built that can sustain that. But before you're thin and built up, you can chuck a Catapult as a quick measure to buy you a full turn in the future to get more expensive components into your deck, like that Market you need to sustain buying Rocks or Silver later.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2016, 12:29:13 pm »
0

Attacking in general is more defensive than offensive. Buying victory cards is offensive.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2016, 01:02:46 pm »
0

Attacking in general is more defensive than offensive. Buying victory cards is offensive.

I'm trying to highlight "attack as a means of preventing a future attack" vs "attack as a means of crippling the opponent's turn directly"
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2016, 01:18:22 pm »
+2

Attacking in general is more defensive than offensive. Buying victory cards is offensive.

I'm trying to highlight "attack as a means of preventing a future attack" vs "attack as a means of crippling the opponent's turn directly"
Those 2 things are almost always the same thing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2016, 05:08:52 pm »
+1

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #100 on: December 15, 2016, 05:18:03 pm »
0

Maybe dumb question, but it is fair to talk about losing ranks since the last list since there are so many new cards? Maybe I don't understand the stats here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2016, 05:20:18 pm »
+5

I ignore new cards for those stats. So if a card was on rank #20 and is now still on rank #20, but there are 2 new cards still coming up in this list it is now 2 ranks better than last year.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #102 on: December 15, 2016, 05:25:38 pm »
0

Not a lot that's obviously controversial with this section of the list. It's good that people like Bonfire now. It should be higher, I think? But top ten $3 is an elite tier, so maybe that's about its ceiling.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #103 on: December 15, 2016, 05:32:15 pm »
0

Dungeon is way better than warehouse in practically any deck your playing.

Engines: The most common time you dud is at the beginning of your turn. This is about as good as guide at preventing duds.

Slogs: See your phil-stone, sea hag or whatever on more turns.

Bm: Discard two greens every turn.

Good stuff: See your good stuff more often every turn.

This is basically wharf vs smithy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #104 on: December 15, 2016, 07:06:26 pm »
+2

This is probably the saddest list that is going to come out this year.
Leaves top 10 as Ambassador, Masquerade, Steward, Fishing Village, Forager, Swindler, Urchin, Ferry, Menagerie, and Gear

Now for (30 reasons is the thing right now? whatever) why it is sad:

1. Lookout - is much better than this. Trashes and cycles non-terminally. Stop worrying about trashing good cards and track your deck better. The fact that this is #20 and Forager is in the top 10 is absurd considering that Forager does not do one of these things. There are certainly good arguments for Forager being better, but it is not that much better.

2. Dungeon - is way better than Warehouse, should be top 10. Most duds happen at the start of turns and having a Dungeon or two out helps with this, along with the 3 card sifting of Warehouse in the middle of the turn often being superfluous. Since we all care about money strategies so much, also Dungeon money beats Embassy money with both out of a 3/4 start.

3. Watchtower - it lost ranks but I'm still not sure what it is doing this high and I don't think that the reasons for wondering are too obscure.

4. Amulet - is at least as good as Steward if not better. Having the potential trashing spread across two turns makes it so that if the coin is more useful (say for hitting 5) you still get a card trashed. The ability to gain Silver also makes it a much better money card and allows for the addition of payload in engines if that is what is needed.

5. Menagerie - is just not that good, we should have seen it in this list. When it works it is amazing but the conditions on it working repeatedly in a powerful deck are rather narrow.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2016, 03:49:32 am »
+1

Well, to be fair, Forager doesn't just trash, it also gives +Buy and $ later in the game, whereas Lookout is only a trasher (well, with maybe a small amount of sifting). Also, tracking your deck isn't always the solution to problems with Lookout, sometimes you just get unlucky if you play it near the top of a shuffle (but you still should, because thinning is winning). It's a pretty decent card but it shouldn't be much higher. Having said that, I actually do have it higher, I just noticed, on place 19 instead of 20! Close call though. (Forager is on 13)

Also, Watchtower is a good card. It may very well be the second best defensive card in the game (after Champion), countering cursers and handsize attacks like there's no tomorrow, but it's also the best card for draw-to-X engines. They're sometimes a bit more difficult to build than standard Village-Smithy type engines, but it definitely pays off.

You make a good case for Dungeon > Warehouse (I had Dungeon just 1 place over Warehouse, the difference is probably bigger than that tbh), but top 10 is likely too high. I do agree with your point about Menagerie, it probably shouldn't be in the top 10, it's a bit too situational for that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2016, 04:11:14 am »
0

I ignore new cards for those stats. So if a card was on rank #20 and is now still on rank #20, but there are 2 new cards still coming up in this list it is now 2 ranks better than last year.
But this is not true for the reported average %?
It seems that a direct effect of Empires is to make cards in the bottom half lose % and cards in the upper half win %.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2016, 08:18:00 am »
+2

Forager is better than Lookout, but only a little better. Not enough that I'm losing a ton of sleep over Lookout being 20 and Forager probably being 10.

Amulet is good but it really isn't better than Steward in my experience. 90% of this is because Amulet can't ever draw. So I'm fine with Amulet below Steward. Forager isn't better than Steward though.

Menagerie is as good as its ranked. More enablers for it than ever and you don't need it to draw 3 consistently to be worth it, just once or twice per hand is often fine.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 08:19:04 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2016, 09:10:00 am »
+3

I note that most of the new 3-cost cards from Empires have placed mid-table.  I think this either means that Donald X is great at balancing cards, or the community doesn't quite know what to make of them yet.  Maybe both.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2016, 09:14:43 am »
0

My experience with Menagerie is that you can add a couple in the mid game to late game even when it doesn't seem that strong and it will still activate maybe a third of the time (like, during the greening stage). That's not too shabby. This is ignoring all the games where it has synergy and ends up dominating.

Amulet is fine, but you usually want at least two to deal with Amulet missing the reshuffle and then you have two terminals that don't feel good to play over other stuff somewhere in the mid game, though they are still perfectly playable when you have actions to spare. Steward draw allows it to form a core part of your engine once you trash down. I'm okay with Steward being higher than Amulet but maybe Amulet can be a bit higher?

Forager gives money and a buy guys, and it trashes from your hand (more trashing control), making it stay very relevant throughout the game. It's a few places better than Lookout in my eyes due to its consistency.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2016, 09:19:34 am »
0

Forager isn't better than Steward though.

It depends on the kingdom.  Generally, Steward is better if there is an action splitter in the kingdom, and Forager is better if there isn't.  Steward is better when fast trashing is more important; Forager is better when buying $3/$4 components while trashing is preferred.  Also, when you're trashing singleton junk from attacks, Steward can become an awkward play.  In the absence of such attacks, Forager can become awkward to play in the lategame.  Steward is better when there is no other source of draw; Forager is better when there is no other source of +buy.  It's not obvious to me which card is more valuable in a random kingdom.

Fun fact: The community's list and my list have the same cards in the top ten!  I'm glad Gear made it into the top 10.

Part 4 seemed very reasonable to me, with one exception: Bonfire.  I've certainly come around on Bonfire since last year, but I think you guys are still overrating it (I had it about 10 ranks lower).  There are a lot of boards where Bonfire is a better purchase than a second or third Silver - which I didn't realize last year.  But, being unable to trash Estates and Curses is a large handicap.  Bonfire works nicely with an Estate trasher, but it can definitely be a trap to go in for heavy Copper trashing while holding onto one's Estates (see this game, where Mic Qsenoch and I had a hard time hitting $3P because we bought multiple Bonfires and no Silver).  Bonfire had a high deviation, so I suspect some people voted it in the top 10, which I just can't understand.  Bonfire is ignorable on too many boards and low impact on most others for it to be close to as good as Amulet or Hermit.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2016, 10:26:12 am »
0

I don't think Bonfire is ever really ignorable per se, but you do skip buying it sometimes. It's always an option worth considering, though, and its speed is unmatched among trashers (except Donate I guess). Even in games where it isn't an all-star, it lets you ditch your Chapel or Amulet or whatever. I particularly like how you pay for it using the Copper that you end up trashing - it really is a trasher that costs a buy rather than a dead card and an action.

I think Bonfire is probably better than Amulet when all is said and done.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2016, 10:47:33 am »
0

I think Bonfire is probably better than Amulet when all is said and done.

I'm pretty sure it's not. For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is often underestimated, but more importantly: Amulet can trash Estates.

Amulet has always been a bit underrated, probably because people hate how it misses so many shuffles, but it has a lot of mitigating factors.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2016, 12:31:31 pm »
0

For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is often underoverestimated

FTFY
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2016, 01:13:12 pm »
0

I notice that nobody has tried to defend the biggest loser so far, Guide.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2016, 01:23:02 pm »
+1

I notice that nobody has tried to defend the biggest loser so far, Guide.

Guide is more skippable than people think
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2016, 01:36:24 pm »
0

wtf. I had Bonfire in my top 5. I'm surprised at its rank.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2016, 01:47:49 pm »
0

I notice that nobody has tried to defend the biggest loser so far, Guide.

23rd on the $3 list isn't really "bad card" territory, just not essential or overwhelmingly good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2016, 02:24:15 pm »
0

wtf. I had Bonfire in my top 5. I'm surprised at its rank.

I hear ya. I have the same top ten except Swindler basically swapped places with Bonfire.

This might just be a product of me not having played with Bonfire enough. I've been satisfied with its work almost every time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2016, 02:44:38 pm »
+1

Would any Bonfire champions like to play me in a cage match?

The format:
  • Bonfire and Plan are always in the kingdom.  The rest of the cards are random.
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  • We play some games and see how it goes, hopefully learning more about the strength of Bonfire and Plan.
If this interests you, send me a message.  I have about half the sets (including Adventures), so bonus points if you have more sets.  We can swap Plan for some other decent card if you want.

Follow-up: markusin took me up on my offer and played a set of games with this format.  Check out the results.  Thanks, markusin!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 12:33:22 pm by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #120 on: December 20, 2016, 06:31:32 pm »
+2

Sorry about the break, here is the Top 10

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #121 on: December 20, 2016, 06:56:12 pm »
+1

I still think Masquerade is better than Ambassador.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #122 on: December 20, 2016, 07:47:37 pm »
+1

i am happy that urchin went down because it's stupid
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #123 on: December 20, 2016, 08:28:05 pm »
0

Ferry's better than Swinder, otherwise I'm content with the top 10.

I really appreciate how Steward is considered much better than Amulet. Being a draw card after trashing is just so much, much better than being a terminal Copper / delayed Peddler, even if double Amulet works a bit smoother than double Steward and you get a bit more economy while trashing.

Urchin falling is kind of expected. It's very strong, but a little awkward and monolithic. I think where it sits now is about right. Everything above it is better. Even Steward, I really think so. 

A small thing to consider with Masquerade is that we are ranking the version that doesn't pin (as much). That's a small part of Masquerade's overall effectiveness, but it's worth noting nonetheless.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #124 on: December 20, 2016, 10:39:55 pm »
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I feel Gear is better than Ferry
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #125 on: December 21, 2016, 05:58:13 am »
+2

For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is often underoverestimated

FTFY

How is it overestimated? Nobody ever talks about it at all. Consider this post:

I really appreciate how Steward is considered much better than Amulet. Being a draw card after trashing is just so much, much better than being a terminal Copper / delayed Peddler, even if double Amulet works a bit smoother than double Steward and you get a bit more economy while trashing.

Amulet can gain two Silvers with a single play, or it can gain a Silver and trash a card (like a Jack that doesn't draw but can trash Copper). That's pretty okay in engines, but it's absolutely bonkers in BM or slogs. In big engines, I agree Steward is slightly better than Amulet, but overall, I still think Amulet is better.

By the way, I also think Steward's draw is often overestimated. +2 Cards is not that great. If Steward is the only draw card in an engine, I wouldn't be so sure about the engine as a whole. And if it's not, you're often better off just taking +$2.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 05:59:53 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #126 on: December 21, 2016, 06:27:03 am »
0

For one thing, Amulet's Silver-gaining function is often underoverestimated

FTFY

How is it overestimated? Nobody ever talks about it at all.

There should be talk about how it's not very useful.

Amulet can gain two Silvers with a single play, or it can gain a Silver and trash a card (like a Jack that doesn't draw but can trash Copper). That's pretty okay in engines, but it's absolutely bonkers in BM or slogs. In big engines, I agree Steward is slightly better than Amulet, but overall, I still think Amulet is better.

By the way, I also think Steward's draw is often overestimated. +2 Cards is not that great. If Steward is the only draw card in an engine, I wouldn't be so sure about the engine as a whole. And if it's not, you're often better off just taking +$2.

Gaining two Silvers is awful in engines. Gaining a Silver and trashing a card is fine in engines, but not when the alternative is not gaining a Silver and still trashing a card, and especially not if you can trash two cards. Trashing a card is like gaining a Lab, gaining a Silver is like trashing a Lab.

You're also wrong about Steward's draw being overestimated. You can totally build engines with Steward as the only draw, because Steward being in the kingdom already means you probably don't need amazing draw in the first place since you can trash all of your junk cards pretty fast. If it's not the only draw, it's still super useful because it adds more reliability.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #127 on: December 21, 2016, 06:36:48 am »
0

I do hope you realize that when people say 'Silver is like a Curse', they're usually making a joke. Yes, in engines you want to be very careful with gaining Treasure cards and a Silver often becomes dead weight later on, but gaining a Silver is by no means equivalent to trashing a Lab. People open Silver in engines, you know. But opening Amulet and using it to gain a Silver on the second shuffle might be more efficient in some cases.

And remember, not every board is an engine. Amulet is useful on almost every board, Steward just isn't.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #128 on: December 21, 2016, 07:00:02 am »
+1

A small thing to consider with Masquerade is that we are ranking the version that doesn't pin (as much). That's a small part of Masquerade's overall effectiveness, but it's worth noting nonetheless.

Was this clear during the ranking? It seems strange to make a list which consists of 1st edition cards but with 2nd edition Masquerade.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #129 on: December 21, 2016, 07:09:48 am »
+1

I do hope you realize that when people say 'Silver is like a Curse', they're usually making a joke.

Well, I don't exactly need to take advice from most people who are joking about that. It is literally true that Silver is a stop card, which is also the main feature of Curse.

Yes, in engines you want to be very careful with gaining Treasure cards and a Silver often becomes dead weight later on, but gaining a Silver is by no means equivalent to trashing a Lab. People open Silver in engines, you know. But opening Amulet and using it to gain a Silver on the second shuffle might be more efficient in some cases.

People open Silver in engines when they don't have any other choice. If there's something like Wishing Well or Oasis available, people buy that over Silver because adding a stop card to your deck so early on is extremely detrimental. Sometimes you just have to buy the Silver anyway because you need the early economy, but there's no reason to gain Silver when Amulet is available, because Amulet gives you economy in addition to being a trasher, and if you still need the Silver despite Amulet being available, you need it to be in your deck for turns 3/4, not after you have already played an Amulet.

And remember, not every board is an engine. Amulet is useful on almost every board, Steward just isn't.

If Amulet or Steward is present, it is probably an engine board. Especially if it's Steward.


Also the Masquerade pin is a 3-card combo, and thusly, it's not worth noting because it doesn't happen in real games of Dominion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #130 on: December 21, 2016, 08:49:11 am »
+2

Also the Masquerade pin is a 3-card combo, and thusly, it's not worth noting because it doesn't happen in real games of Dominion.
Maquerade/Royal Carriage is/was a 2-card combo.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #131 on: December 21, 2016, 09:15:52 am »
0

Also the Masquerade pin is a 3-card combo, and thusly, it's not worth noting because it doesn't happen in real games of Dominion.
Maquerade/Royal Carriage is/was a 2-card combo.

Right, I forgot about that. Well, that is somewhat relevant, but still super rare.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #132 on: December 21, 2016, 11:05:15 am »
0

Amulet can gain two Silvers with a single play, or it can gain a Silver and trash a card (like a Jack that doesn't draw but can trash Copper). That's pretty okay in engines, but it's absolutely bonkers in BM or slogs. In big engines, I agree Steward is slightly better than Amulet, but overall, I still think Amulet is better.

Amulet is clearly better in BM, no question there.

But Stewart isn't "slightly better" than Amulet in an engine - it is dramatically better. It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.

Quote
By the way, I also think Steward's draw is often overestimated. +2 Cards is not that great. If Steward is the only draw card in an engine, I wouldn't be so sure about the engine as a whole. And if it's not, you're often better off just taking +$2.

+2 Cards is decent draw if your engine has been thinned of junk, which is what Steward does. +2 Cards sucks if you're not thin, if you're playing Big Money, etc., but it's just fine if the average card in your deck is really good and useful. It's not the best draw card ever, but it's miles better than being a stop card that doesn't really contribute anything - and if you don't need the draw it's a terminal Silver every turn instead of a terminal Copper one turn and a Peddler next turn.

A small thing to consider with Masquerade is that we are ranking the version that doesn't pin (as much). That's a small part of Masquerade's overall effectiveness, but it's worth noting nonetheless.

Was this clear during the ranking? It seems strange to make a list which consists of 1st edition cards but with 2nd edition Masquerade.

The pictured Masquerade used in the ranking is the one shown in the OP of this post, which contains the anti-pin language.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 11:06:19 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #133 on: December 21, 2016, 11:07:53 am »
0

It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.

Who the hell buys more than one Steward

There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #134 on: December 21, 2016, 11:14:52 am »
+1

It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.

Who the hell buys more than one Steward

There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into

Many, many times I've bought two Steward to thin faster. Mostly on boards where getting a power $5 immediately isn't paramount. Or an Alms board or something. Is this that uncommon?

I pretty much always buy two Amulet though, it's not fast enough for an engine with just one. But it is a lot easier to trash one with the other later, so there's that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #135 on: December 21, 2016, 11:25:23 am »
+1

Who the hell buys more than one Steward

I do, almost every time unless there's non-terminal trashing for $3 or $4.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #136 on: December 21, 2016, 11:26:30 am »
0

It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.

Who the hell buys more than one Steward

There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into

Many, many times I've bought two Steward to thin faster. Mostly on boards where getting a power $5 immediately isn't paramount. Or an Alms board or something. Is this that uncommon?

I pretty much always buy two Amulet though, it's not fast enough for an engine with just one. But it is a lot easier to trash one with the other later, so there's that.

I mean, it's not as bad as getting two Chapels, but I only see multiple Stewards from a) bots or b) really sloggy games.  If Steward is the only draw, I find it usually isn't even worth it to bother.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #137 on: December 21, 2016, 11:36:32 am »
0

It is literally the difference between two terminal stop cards and two terminal draw cards. Most engines would gladly take the extra draw, but may have more trouble babying around these dumb Coppers that take up space every other turn.

Who the hell buys more than one Steward

There's almost always some better form of draw to transition into

I'd buy two Stewards if it's a board where I would have really, really wanted Chapel. The good thing about double Steward is that the Steward can be used as a Silver when it's time to add good cards to your deck. With Chapel you often have to sneak in a Silver somewhere, possibly in the opening.

Don't be so dismissive about Steward draw either. If you're playing a deck that tries to play lots of cantrips, Steward might be the only draw you need.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #138 on: December 21, 2016, 11:37:10 am »
0

I mean, it's not as bad as getting two Chapels, but I only see multiple Stewards from a) bots or b) really sloggy games.

Perhaps it's because you're getting automatched against lower level players?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #139 on: December 21, 2016, 11:40:39 am »
0

Steward/Steward is a legit opening when no other trashers are present
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #140 on: December 21, 2016, 12:00:53 pm »
+5

So some logic behind double Steward:

1. Trashing fast is pretty much the ideal - the only real reason to not eliminate all your junk as fast as possible on an engine board is if you need that junk to buy your first several components.

2. When you get thin with Steward, you'll always have at the very least +$2 from one of your Stewards to start you off, and this is assuming you don't find a Village buy before then. You can more aggressively thin with Steward versus other trashers as a result.

3. In the second shuffle, double Steward is basically strictly better than single Steward if getting thin is more important than racing to $5. The collision case is basically the same outcome as opening Steward / Anything Else - you don't buy anything on the collision turn, you get something on the other turn. The non collision case is much better - you trashed 4 cards by turn 5. Nice!

4. Since Steward is better than nothing on a lot of boards you don't really mind keeping 2 of them around for awhile. You can trash one if you really want to though you need a second card to trash with it. Most of the time even if it isn't the absolute best use of terminal space, it's a pretty decent terminal, either for economy or draw depending on what the deck needs at the moment.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #141 on: December 21, 2016, 12:07:14 pm »
0

You learn something new every day!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #142 on: December 21, 2016, 01:34:27 pm »
+2

3. In the second shuffle, double Steward is basically strictly better than single Steward if getting thin is more important than racing to $5. The collision case is basically the same outcome as opening Steward / Anything Else - you don't buy anything on the collision turn, you get something on the other turn. The non collision case is much better - you trashed 4 cards by turn 5. Nice!

I mostly agree with your post on why double Steward is a decent opening, but not this section. 

Steward + other terminal is identical to double Steward in the collision case, and so it would take an extraordinary terminal to even consider opening with it over double Stewart (Peasant, Swindler, Black Market, Remake, and Jack of all Trades are some of the only terminal actions I'd consider opening with Steward).

But Steward + good non-terminal is often a better opening than double Steward.  Cards like Tournament, Ironmonger, Magpie, and Wishing Well can give you a chance to get a $5 card and trash two cards on turns 3 and 4 - if they don't collide.  If your openers do "collide", you'll usually be able to buy a $3 component on that turn.  Those cards also reduce the likelihood of your Steward missing the shuffle.

Steward + Silver is sometimes better than Steward + Steward.  If they don't collide, you have a good chance of reaching $5 in your hand with Silver.  If they do collide, you can still pick up a $3 card while trashing.  Which is better will depend on the rest of the kingdom.  Strong $2 cards and plentiful action splitters favor double Steward.  Strong $3 and $5 components and limited terminal space favor Steward + Silver.

Edit: Because Dingan is correct.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 02:42:17 pm by aku_chi »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #143 on: December 21, 2016, 01:53:44 pm »
+2

Steward + Silver is sometimes better than Steward + Steward.  If they don't collide, you have a better chance of reaching $5.

Wouldn't you have an equal chance of hitting $5?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #144 on: December 21, 2016, 02:30:59 pm »
0

3. In the second shuffle, double Steward is basically strictly better than single Steward if getting thin is more important than racing to $5. The collision case is basically the same outcome as opening Steward / Silver Anything Else - you don't buy anything on the collision turn, you get something on the other turn. The non collision case is much better - you trashed 4 cards by turn 5. Nice!

Change Anything Else to Silver and this is mostly correct (assuming that you'll trash with Steward over hitting $5). Steward (trash 2) + Silver + Copper still buys another $3 card, but there probably aren't any $3 cards that are critical to get on the second shuffle if you opened Silver over those other $3 cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #145 on: December 21, 2016, 04:57:02 pm »
0

Everyone's points about hitting $5 if you get a power $4 cantrip, etc. are valid, which is why I specified that double is better than single if thinning quickly is more important than racing to a power $5.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #146 on: December 23, 2016, 08:49:22 pm »
0

FV above urchin is criminal

it's half a stop card, people

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #147 on: December 23, 2016, 09:45:16 pm »
0

FV above urchin is criminal

it's half a stop card, people
Agreed. We also have a lot of villages these days
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #148 on: December 25, 2016, 11:09:38 am »
0

Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #149 on: December 25, 2016, 01:08:46 pm »
0

An engine needs a lot of draw for Silver to be a good payload.  It can happen with power draw like Wharf, but it's rare.  Amulet's Silver gaining can work well in an engine with Storyteller, Apprentice, Butcher, or the like.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #150 on: December 25, 2016, 01:52:46 pm »
0

Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.

I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.

If you do need the draw of Steward, you have to draw 5 Gold + 1 anything to get to double Province, which is six stop cards. You draw four with Steward, versus 8 stop cards with 2x Amulet 7x Silver when you draw 0.

If you don't need the draw of Steward, consider a deck of 2x Amulet, 7x Silver, versus 2x Steward, 4x Gold. Eight stop cards (1 Amulet is a Duration) versus six, using 1 Action a turn instead of 2. It doesn't sound like a lot more, but you can use Steward for draw in a pinch so it isn't necessarily a stop card, and eight stop cards is way more likely to whiff than six.

Of course, the opportunity cost of paying for Gold payload is a lot less than buying a few Silver and gaining several more, so "it depends on the board" and neither of us can really definitively argue the general case one way or another.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #151 on: December 26, 2016, 01:47:39 pm »
0

Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.

I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.
I don't see how you can build a decent draw engine with "+2 Cards" unless the opponent totally ignored the village pile and there is a gainer in the Kingdom. Village+Smithy is a Double Lab whereas Village+Moat is just one Lab and normally not worth it. Especially not if that Moat costs 3 and you only had 2 in your deck for the sake of trashing once you start to build your draw engine.
No, in this instance you want some Treasures for payload and Silver does the trick.

In Kingdoms without virtual coins those few Silver you gain via Amulet are going to matter more than the abysmal draw of Steward. Now I am not going to argue that Amulet is a powerhouse Silver gainer like Trading Post or Jack and of course Amulet and Steward are of very similar strength.
But I think that the disadvantage of Amulet relative to Steward, trashing and terminal Silver spread over 2 turns, is made up by the Silver-gaining which is more valuable than 2 Cards and 2 Buys. And there are also middlegame situations (e.g. after some junking) in which you wanna trash only one card and thus prefer to have an Amulet over a Steward.

If these weren't assets Amulet would be worse then Steward which I simply consider to not be the case.

But then again the strength of Silver is an old Dominion issue on which opinions vary.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #152 on: December 26, 2016, 04:44:56 pm »
0

Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.

I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.
I don't see how you can build a decent draw engine with "+2 Cards" unless the opponent totally ignored the village pile and there is a gainer in the Kingdom. Village+Smithy is a Double Lab whereas Village+Moat is just one Lab and normally not worth it. Especially not if that Moat costs 3 and you only had 2 in your deck for the sake of trashing once you start to build your draw engine.

No, in this instance you want some Treasures for payload and Silver does the trick.

Nah, not really. You can just read the post I already made for my argument against it - you deleted the quote, and then didn't respond to the arguments directly at all. I pointed out how many more stop cards a Silver payload engine with double Amulet has over a Gold payload engine with double Steward has. If you need draw so badly that Steward doesn't cut it, then you either can't build a good engine or you can't sustain 8 stop cards a turn. Pretty simple really.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #153 on: December 27, 2016, 02:46:46 am »
0

Kinda funny to see the narrow definition of engine that some people have. A Kingdom without virtual coins besides those of Amulet, a Kingdom in which you can set up a draw engine and gotta get your Coins from Treasure cards, favours a trasher-gainer like Amulet over a trasher-drawer like Steward.

I would consider arguing the opposite here, actually. Those are kingdoms where you need lots of draw.
I don't see how you can build a decent draw engine with "+2 Cards" unless the opponent totally ignored the village pile and there is a gainer in the Kingdom. Village+Smithy is a Double Lab whereas Village+Moat is just one Lab and normally not worth it. Especially not if that Moat costs 3 and you only had 2 in your deck for the sake of trashing once you start to build your draw engine.

No, in this instance you want some Treasures for payload and Silver does the trick.

Nah, not really. You can just read the post I already made for my argument against it - you deleted the quote, and then didn't respond to the arguments directly at all. I pointed out how many more stop cards a Silver payload engine with double Amulet has over a Gold payload engine with double Steward has. If you need draw so badly that Steward doesn't cut it, then you either can't build a good engine or you can't sustain 8 stop cards a turn. Pretty simple really.
Your example did not feature a draw engine it all, it was just a shitload of Gold plus some extra buy that came out of thin air. Steward must really be a powerhouse if it can do that
Seriously, I totally agree with you that Gold is better than Silver, no need to argue about that.   ;D

Village plus Steward-draw is equal to a Lab. You cannot build a draw engine with that.
I actually only once build an actual draw engine with "+2 Cards" cards so either I am totally ignorant ... or "+3 Cards" is actually really significantly better than "+2 Cards". Well, let's check, Village plus Smithy is equivalent to a Double Lab. Looks like the combo of a 3 and a 4 really is double as powerful as the combo of a 3 and a 3 (Steward as drawer).

As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 02:48:23 am by tristan »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #154 on: December 27, 2016, 03:01:56 am »
+2

As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.

You are remarkably consistent in your argument strategies, I'll give you that.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #155 on: December 27, 2016, 03:06:26 am »
0

As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.

You are remarkably consistent in your argument strategies, I'll give you that.
Bullcrap. It is not a "strategy" but a response to what Chris actually claimed:

Amulet is good but it really isn't better than Steward in my experience. 90% of this is because Amulet can't ever draw. So I'm fine with Amulet below Steward. Forager isn't better than
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #156 on: December 27, 2016, 04:07:25 am »
+2

As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.

As I said, Steward is better in each and every situation so arguments that Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength are more than just a a tad ridiculous.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #157 on: December 27, 2016, 04:25:37 am »
+7

As I said, Steward and Amulet are of roughly equivalent strength so arguments that Steward is better in each and every situation are more than just a a tad ridiculous.

You are remarkably consistent in your argument strategies, I'll give you that.
Bullcrap. It is not a "strategy" but a response to what Chris actually claimed:

Amulet is good but it really isn't better than Steward in my experience. 90% of this is because Amulet can't ever draw. So I'm fine with Amulet below Steward. Forager isn't better than

Upon closer inspection you may realize that they never made any claim that Steward is better than Amulet in each and every situation. I mostly point this out because this particular twisting of words (claiming of an unconditional statement where there was none) has been a trend for a month now: this is at least the third time.
Based on those last two threads, it seems almost certain that somebody is going to be labelled a liar pretty soon.

No statement on this forum about Dominion is said with any notion of it being an absolute truth, and these rankings are particularly noteworthy in that respect: they are based on an average case, not based on any absolute, because, as you have so kindly pointed out so many times, it depends on the kingdom. I don't see why this is so difficult, like, I can say that Chapel is better than Counting House and somehow everybody knows what that means without me having to point out the exceptions. The fact that the two cards that are being discussed are closer in strength should not change that underlying assumption, and I suggest using this very sentence if you want to practice the thinking which goes into accounting for that assumption.

You know, the tough part is that in this case I actually do think that the average case of Amulet is better than the average case of Steward, but I am not going to put up with your crap, and quite frankly, nobody else should either.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 02:48:37 pm by traces Around »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #158 on: December 28, 2016, 07:52:07 am »
0

I am not going to put up with your crap, and quite frankly, nobody else should either.
Looks like somebody is still mad because I pointed out the difference between turns and shuffles.
Looks like you get even mader when I point out that Chris did in fact argue for what he did argue for.

Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with. And if you piss them, as well as p***philes like Awaclus, off, you must have doen something right.

User was temp banned for this post (and others).
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 11:17:39 am by theory »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #159 on: December 28, 2016, 08:19:27 am »
+5

I am not going to put up with your crap, and quite frankly, nobody else should either.
Looks like somebody is still mad because I pointed out the difference between turns and shuffles.
Looks like you get even mader when I point out that Chris did in fact argue for what he did argue for.

Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with. And if you piss them, as well as p***philes like Awaclus, off, you must have doen something right.

You must have misunderstood something. The point of arguing is not to piss people off.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #160 on: December 28, 2016, 08:33:24 am »
+3

Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with.
I understand none of this. Who are postmodern relativists on here? What does that even mean? How does it make people hard to argue with? Why am I writing a response to an obviously semi-trolling post?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #161 on: December 28, 2016, 08:48:21 am »
0

Well, people who have a postmodern relativist attitude towards facts are hard to argue with.
I understand none of this. Who are postmodern relativists on here? What does that even mean? How does it make people hard to argue with? Why am I writing a response to an obviously semi-trolling post?
That guy went mad when I pointed out that Chris did actually argue precisely what I claimed (just like he went mad in another thread because I dared to point out that you do not automatically shuffle once per turn), namely that Steward is better than Amulet ... and you seriously accuse ME of being a troll?
I mean, seriously?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #162 on: December 28, 2016, 09:29:33 am »
+1

Village plus Steward-draw is equal to a Lab. You cannot build a draw engine with that.
There are actually many cases where Lab or equivalent is sufficient for a draw engine. Some examples include: strong villages such as Wandering Minstrel or Fishing Village, cantrip payload such as Grand Market, Highway or Peddlers and strong trashing such as Steward or Chapel. Obviously such a sweeping statement that you cannot build a draw engine with +"2 Cards" cards is completely ridiculous.

I actually only once build an actual draw engine with "+2 Cards" cards so either I am totally ignorant
You yourself even state that you have built a draw engine with "+2 Cards" cards in the very next sentence contradicting yourself and proving how preposterous your previous claim was. In fact you seem to have summed up what everyone else has been trying to tell you here better than they have been able to, so I don't see why this argument has continued.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #163 on: December 28, 2016, 10:20:59 am »
+11

I really just want to re-emphasize the point that +2 card draw is most useful in engine games where you are extremely thin, perhaps with the help of an elite trasher like Steward. Oh look, the card that gives you less than elite draw is also the card that enables you to get away with it. Weird, huh.

I also want to emphasize, hey, you can have a deck where some cards draw 3 cards and other cards draw 2 cards, and it'll be better at drawing than a deck where some cards draw 3 cards and other cards draw 0 cards.

But honesty I don't even get what the point of posting this is. I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here. It's impossible to discuss a differing opinion with you. I agree with you politically most of the time, and I kind of figured your intensity in that was mostly out of frustration on not being able to find common ground / areas to compromise on in that realm, but really it turns out you hold all of your convictions with that strength.

What is the purpose of discussion, for you? What do you gain by posting on a forum, and what value do you find in the comments of posts that you don't already agree with? Why are you here? These aren't rhetorical questions - I really want to know.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 10:23:30 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #164 on: December 28, 2016, 10:21:42 am »
+7

There are actually many cases where Lab or equivalent is sufficient for a draw engine. Some examples include: strong villages such as Wandering Minstrel or Fishing Village, cantrip payload such as Grand Market, Highway or Peddlers and strong trashing such as Steward or Chapel.

And surprisingly enough, strong trashing such as Steward or Chapel is usually present when Steward is in the kingdom.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #165 on: December 28, 2016, 11:54:11 am »
+4

Steward > Amulet
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