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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol  (Read 7274 times)

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werothegreat

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Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« on: December 04, 2016, 10:13:58 pm »
+2


See, now this is how you Scout.

-How does this compare to other terminal draw?
-How useful is post-draw deck inspection on a terminal?
-Can we make memes of this?
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mameluke

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2016, 10:25:33 pm »
0

One thing to super worry about here is that for shuffling purposes, you're dealing with *7* cards, even if you don't want to. Patrol itself may miss the shuffle often. If you just don't have that much green in your deck, it might not be worth it over other kinds of drawing. Say you have 5 cards left in your deck, and you've just played a number of good actions or you have a lot of money in hand (or will draw it). You'll cause a shuffle and all of those cards this turn will miss the shuffle, and if you didn't reveal any Curses or Green, those cards won't miss shuffle either.
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2016, 10:48:34 pm »
0

Smithy for 5. This will miss a bunch of shuffles but the green missing shuffles this downside isn't that bad.
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mameluke

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2016, 12:12:42 am »
0

-How useful is post-draw deck inspection on a terminal?

I don't know yet. It still seems a little odd, a cantrip seems better usage if you have Mill or Nobles or other Action-Victory cards, but this will like Harem.

If you can manage to play a village before this, then maybe you can do something with those extra cards: Cellar, Vault, Storeroom come to mind. Or for things you don't draw, Herald, Wishing Well, etc. Otherwise I think this just increases cycling as long as you don't trigger a reshuffle when you don't want to.
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2016, 07:19:16 am »
+3

This card isn't bad, but it's nowhere near Scout-level good. It lacks two things that made Scout so good: low cost and non-terminality. That being said, I wouldn't go out of my way to not buy this (like I do with Scouting Party).

However, for those people who hated Scout, it's odd for them to call Patrol anything but a:
Smithy for 5.
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2016, 08:26:25 am »
+1

This card isn't bad, but it's nowhere near Scout-level good. It lacks two things that made Scout so good: low cost and non-terminality. That being said, I wouldn't go out of my way to not buy this (like I do with Scouting Party).

However, for those people who hated Scout, it's odd for them to call Patrol anything but a:
Smithy for 5.

Even if it does nothing else, Patrol at least is still a Smithy, which isn't even that bad for $5. Scout, on the other hand, is a Ruined Village, and there's no way you'd ever take one of those, even for free.
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2016, 08:31:24 am »
+1

This is actually super handy sometimes, it's a little like Wandering Minstrel vs Village. Wishing Well, Mystic, etc really likes the inspection. In Intrigue games that this is designed for you really appreciate the free Nobles or Mill draws. Castles also dig Patrol. It's often just Smithy for $5 but even pulling one card out makes it much better.
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trivialknot

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2016, 03:10:34 pm »
0

Proposition: In a junking game without trashing, it is possible, and competitive, to build a draw engine using Patrol.
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2016, 03:15:38 pm »
+1

It's fascinating that Geronimoo's simulator was used to test the strength of Patrol-BM during playtesting. This presumably didn't happen for Adventures, because if it did Gear would probably cost $4!

Has anyone run all the new cards through the standard BM strategies? Anything surprising?
Geronimoo personally tested Patrol for me, during playtesting. It was not crazy, hooray.
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2016, 03:58:07 pm »
0

Proposition: In a junking game without trashing, it is possible, and competitive, to build a draw engine using Patrol.

One nice thing about Patrol is that playing consecutive Patrols helps prevent any of the +3 Cards draw from being wasted on taking junk cards. It clears the way for itself basically.
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2016, 04:53:26 pm »
+1

This has become a somewhat common opinion, but Patrol is one of the best terminal draw cards in the game. Like Chris said above, Patrol is to Smithy as Minstrel is to Village. The re-ordering also really matters, and ups the reliability hugely over that of a Smithy-only engine.

That said, it's not like Patrol is so good that it's broken. But it's really good.
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dedicateddan

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2016, 04:57:42 pm »
0

I've played with patrol a few times and it served as a smithy with some upside.

In standard engines with few cards, patrol is a basic smithy type card.

In heavy green (i.e. crossroads, nobles) engines, patrol is quite nice and draws some additional cards.

Patrol BM looks like a reasonable terminal draw BM variant, especially in extended greening phases.
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jomini

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2016, 11:30:19 pm »
+5

The biggest thing is that with Patrol/Village x2 you get up to 7 cards to find the second Patrol. This is huge, we are talking about something easier to line up for an engine than Embassy (net +2 cards and gives a free silver to the other guy), Envoy (lose your best card), or Hgrounds (need to hit 1 in 5 to keep drawing). The only card that his this big of search space in this rather common setup is Catacombs. Even there it is unlikely to be a clear cut loser - being able to draw the village at position 5 into hand is clutch and on-trash is nothing to sneeze at ... but then again, removing all the green is a non-trivial amount of bonus draw.

Likewise, before you play a second Patrol for dead draw you know precisely what you are going to draw and can stack things. Leaving a Village or Patrol on deck top after dead draw is very good for your next turn. Even picking to dead draw something cheap (like Oracle) and leaving something expensive (like Mountebank) is pretty hard.

I have not played enough with this to fully rank it, but it does very well to enable engines in sloggy stuff where lesser draw cards fail. It also works very well for Opost, CotR, Fishv, Pool, and pretty much all the old Scout synergies (though a few, like Mystic, are not as strong thanks to the lack of +action).

Does it miss shuffles? Yeah it does. But when it does it gives you very high odds of hitting $5 regardless and in the early game - who cares then?
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trivialknot

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2016, 02:35:49 pm »
0

Does it miss shuffles? Yeah it does. But when it does it gives you very high odds of hitting $5 regardless and in the early game - who cares then?
The problem is that it makes the thing you buy skip the shuffle too.  And then it topdecks up to 4 cards, making it a fairly long shuffle.  By the time you get through that it's no longer the early game.
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jomini

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2016, 08:45:12 am »
0

Does it miss shuffles? Yeah it does. But when it does it gives you very high odds of hitting $5 regardless and in the early game - who cares then?
The problem is that it makes the thing you buy skip the shuffle too.  And then it topdecks up to 4 cards, making it a fairly long shuffle.  By the time you get through that it's no longer the early game.

How long of a shuffle can it actually be? Let's take the worse case scenario, you draw down to 3 cards  on deck and then shuffle to inspect the fourth

Okay. You have 8 cards that are currently in your hand. In the early game you are pretty good odds that 1 in 4 cards will be a green unless you have shelters or a lot of gains. With 9 cards missing the shuffle, you have have one to maybe two hands before the next shuffle (anything more requires 9 total gains which is pretty late or you are building an engine anyways). Is this bad? Yes, you see whatever you just bought a turn later ... but we know a few things about what you just bought:
1. It is not a power $2, $3, $4, or $5 - otherwise you would have bought it before Patrol.
2. It is not a Gm - you have copper in play.
3. If it is a Kc, you have low action density.
4. If it is a gold, you want to buy expensive things ... which a de-greened hand does almost as well.
5. If it is a terminal, you might want to grab a village in any event if you want to get a big turn (e.g. Patrol -> Artisan)

The more turns we are talking - where a bad shuffle could mean cards missing the shuffle more, the more likely we are to have cards (like Patrol), that shorten shuffles in the short deck. Likewise, as your deck gets larger the odds of Patrol triggering a bad shuffle fall (for a single Patrol). On the first shuffle you have a 5/12 chance of missing a shuffle (T4 play). On the other hand you have 7/12 chance of making a shuffle shorter (T3 or T5 play). On the next shuffle you will have 14 cards in the simplest setups - and in only 5 positions does it shorten the shuffle. Now things get complicated if you are trashing cards, gaining engine components, or getting multiple cards ... but those are all areas where you are going for an engine or combo and Patrol is pretty nice for making both of those more reliable.

Patrol can make things miss shuffles, but it also makes shuffles happen sooner and more importantly makes it much easier to line things up (e.g. village/draw/Forge). In the early game missed shuffles will be short. In the mid game, theoretically they could get up to a few hands, but most likely we are talking engine and a more reliable engine vastly outweighs one gain being delayed for a shuffle. In the late game it can be harsh, but in the late game, swiping off the green is just so nice.

Frankly, I find the boards here a little odd about "missing shuffles". Yes it is not a good thing of its own right. But the damage of missing the shuffle is directly weighted against how often you shuffle. Scavenger makes a lot of things "miss shuffles", but is an extremely powerful $4 opener on all kinds of boards. Your power card (e.g. Upgrade) hits at the start of every shuffle and who cares if your silver misses a shuffle? Patrol is a just a less extreme version of that, particularly as you can deck track and just decide not to play a Patrol if it is in really problematic territory.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 10:22:04 am by jomini »
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2016, 09:04:43 am »
+1

By the time you're consistently playing Patrols, missing shuffles isn't really a huge deal because you're drawing your deck anyway.

You're not getting Patrol over a power $5, since you want those sooner, and by the time you start getting Patrols involved you probably have a few Villages and your engine is kicking off.

You also have to consider that it makes all those top of deck green cards "miss the shuffle" too. Playing it dead makes it more likely you can pick up another Patrol next turn.

Missing shuffles is mostly catastrophic for cards you open with, trashing cards, cursers, etc.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2016, 03:39:43 pm »
+1

Scout is clearly better because it's non-terminal. If you have a hand of 5 Patrol, you get to play 1, and get at most +7 cards for the turn. If you have a hand of 5 Scout, you can play them all, and get up to +20 cards for the turn! With an action left to play them!
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2016, 03:50:45 pm »
+2

Scout is clearly better because it's non-terminal. If you have a hand of 5 Patrol, you get to play 1, and get at most +7 cards for the turn. If you have a hand of 5 Scout, you can play them all, and get up to +20 cards for the turn! With an action left to play them!

They are both better than King's Court. If you have a hand of 5 King's Courts, you get to play them all and get no Coins or Cards.

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2016, 03:56:25 pm »
+1

Scout is clearly better because it's non-terminal. If you have a hand of 5 Patrol, you get to play 1, and get at most +7 cards for the turn. If you have a hand of 5 Scout, you can play them all, and get up to +20 cards for the turn! With an action left to play them!

They are both better than King's Court. If you have a hand of 5 King's Courts, you get to play them all and get no Coins or Cards.
Curse is better than KC, mainly for the insane comboes with Cellar and Lookout.
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mameluke

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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2016, 03:59:27 pm »
0

Scout is clearly better because it's non-terminal. If you have a hand of 5 Patrol, you get to play 1, and get at most +7 cards for the turn. If you have a hand of 5 Scout, you can play them all, and get up to +20 cards for the turn! With an action left to play them!

They are both better than King's Court. If you have a hand of 5 King's Courts, you get to play them all and get no Coins or Cards.

Only 90-93% of the time
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Re: Let's Discuss Second Edition Cards: Patrol
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2016, 05:30:56 am »
0

Missing or causing shuffles is only a big deal if there are mostly bad cards in your new deck.

Say you play a Pearl Diver after a bunch of Hunting Parties and shuffle 6 Coppers and 2 Estates into your new deck.
Other than that, I find worrying about shuffles often overrated.

Yes, worrying about and manipulating shuffles is a part of the game, but often the good of playing a card outweighs causing a shuffle.
If you find that you're causing too many unwanted shuffles, the card doing this may not be that good.

Envoy touches 5 cards so will often miss the shuffle as well, but if you didn't hit $6 or $8 already, you're most likely still going to play it.
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