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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards  (Read 35363 times)

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funkdoc

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2016, 07:22:11 pm »
0

oh hey i forgot this was the time of year for the thing =(

yall can blame me for peasant finishing behind page. at least this will be the last time that happens~

Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2016, 08:54:41 pm »
+1

Here's that big "my list vs this list" post.

First here's my list if you care to read the entire thing. I didn't do a perfect job on it, but this is what it is. Tax is not on my list.
Code: [Select]
1.) Chapel   [X]
2.) Peasant   [X]
3.) Page   [X]
4.) Hamlet   [X]
5.) Coin of the Realm   [X]
6.) Save   [X]
7.) Encampment   [X]
8.) Stonemason   [X]
9.) Fool's Gold   [X]
10.) Borrow   [X]
11.) Travelling Fair   [X]
12.) Raze   [X]
13.) Alms   [X]
14.) Advance   [X]
15.) Courtyard   [X]
16.) Squire   [X]
17.) Ratcatcher   [X]
18.) Pawn   [X]
19.) Scouting Party   [X]
20.) Patrician   [X]
21.) Lighthouse   [X]
22.) Candlestick Maker   [X]
23.) Settlers   [X]
24.) Cellar   [X]
25.) Poor House   [X]
26.) Herbalist   [X]
27.) Delve   [X]
28.) Native Village   [X]
29.) Haven   [X]
30.) Crossroads   [X]
31.) Beggar   [X]
32.) Vagrant   [X]
33.) Embargo   [X]
34.) Moat   [X]
35.) Pearl Diver   [X]
36.) Quest   [X]
37.) Duchess   [X]
38.) Secret Chamber   [X]

The biggest magnitude differences (cutting it off at +/-7 points) :

Travelling Fair - 21 on Qvist, 11 on mine

I overrated +Buy cards across the board, and it's hard to say Travelling Fair is better than a lot of other things on the list. I guess I had a big string of games without +Buy. Anyhow, Travelling Fair is nonterminal +Buy that topdecks. The topdecking is actually quite useful and game-changing in many respects - it enables lots of cool combos / golden decks, yes, but it just speeds things up in general. Similar to Artisan you can topdeck the card you know you'll need next turn, and that can be a huge swing. I think I over-rated it but I think it's a smidge better than 21.

Herbalist - 36 on Qvist, 26 on mine

Speaking of overrating +Buy cards - this is way higher than it should be on my list, it should be in the 30s somewhere, but +Buy is really important! Herbalist did get a few tricks in Empires that should really buff its rank - the Encampment / Herbalist interaction is a legitimate combo, as is its interaction with Capital. But even topdecking Charm or Crown, as long as you can draw through the dead card, isn't a bad move sometimes. But really, the only reason it's not near the bottom of my list is because it has +buy. It is the lowest +buy card on my list, at least...

Crossroads - 19 on Qvist, 30 on mine

Dude, fuck Crossroads. Like, this is definitely swayed by my personal opinion and not pro dominion strategy or whatever, but the draw is so rarely useful. It's basically just 3 Actions. Woo, you have a shitty village that only works once, and sometimes it helps terrible hands suck less. Eh. You guys have it as better than Native Village?

Courtyard - 8 on Qvist, 15 on mine

I think this is highly ranked because lots of people use old lists as a guide, but it's not top 10 material anymore. It's still a very strong BM card, and a passable draw card for engines, but there's too much other good stuff for both those roles these days.

Lighthouse - 14 on Qvist, 21 on mine

I was too harsh on Lighthouse. Next.

Delve - 20 on Qvist, 27 on mine

It's interesting but utlimately uninteresting in most games it's in. Who buys Silver in 2016?

Save, Encampment - 10 and 12 on Qvist, 6 and 7 on mine

Both these cards are just not fully understood by Dominion players yet, I think. Save is something you have to consider buying almost every turn. Encampment is tricky to understand how to play with, when to play and dispose of it, etc. But both are extremely powerful cards you can't ignore at all. Encampment never splits evenly (and the split isn't static through the duration of the game) so it is always going to be a deciding factor in games. The effect / price ratio (for both cards, really) is just unreal.

Borrow - 16 on Qvist, 10 on mine

Did you know, Borrow is really good? It's really really good. It speeds things up too much to discount. It's really good. Giving yourself a -1 Card token to avoid a reshuffle is even good sometimes! But buying shit that's expensive sooner? That's some primo shit right there.
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aku_chi

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2016, 12:14:59 am »
+6

Delve - 20 on Qvist, 27 on mine

It's interesting but utlimately uninteresting in most games it's in. Who buys Silver in 2016?

You do!  Out of curiosity, I looked at your last ten games on Gokosalvager (12/3-12/6).  You bought Silver in 9/10 games.  And in the tenth, you gained Silver with Jack of All Trades.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2016, 03:43:46 am »
0

Large differences (more than 5 places) between the Qvist ranking (excl. Empires) and my own list:

Travelling Fair (5 on my list, 18 on the Qvist list without Empires): Wow is this thing seriously underrated. I really thought it would get a huge boost this year. What really makes it shine is the combination of adding +Buy whenever you need it AND the option to topdeck stuff. No more $11 Herbalists and no more being sad about 2/5 openings when there's a strong $3 trasher, those are two huge deals. Definitely top 10 material.

Scouting Party (31/21*): I just don't see the appeal. Sorry guys. It's just a last resort buy if you happen to have $2 leftover, and one that can seriously backfire at that.

Crossroads (9/17*): What I like about Crossroads is how it can play different roles. There are boards where it is very useful as the only Village, but then there are also boards where you can use it as a legitimate source of draw. Of course you have to be careful not to overbuy it, but I think its severe drop this year isn't exactly justified.

Ratcatcher (19/12*): I explained this in detail already.

Native Village (26/19*): I admit I may have placed this a little too low. I think it's because the whole setting-things-aside thing can backfire sometimes. But yeah, it's still a Village and sometimes you just need them no matter how weak they are.

Pawn (13/20*): Flexibility is underrated, though place 13 may be pushing it a little.

Borrow (21/15*): I agree with SirSlugma that this one is very difficult to rank, but I guess I can understand why most people like it higher on the list than I do. It can certainly make a big impact in certain situations, depending on your draws. The thing is, if your draws are lucky enough, you'll pretty much never need to buy it.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 03:46:28 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2016, 07:22:14 am »
0

Large differences (more than 5 places) between the Qvist ranking (excl. Empires) and my own list:

Travelling Fair (5 on my list, 18 on the Qvist list without Empires): Wow is this thing seriously underrated. I really thought it would get a huge boost this year. What really makes it shine is the combination of adding +Buy whenever you need it AND the option to topdeck stuff. No more $11 Herbalists and no more being sad about 2/5 openings when there's a strong $3 trasher, those are two huge deals. Definitely top 10 material.

Scouting Party (31/21*): I just don't see the appeal. Sorry guys. It's just a last resort buy if you happen to have $2 leftover, and one that can seriously backfire at that.

Borrow (21/15*): I agree with SirSlugma that this one is very difficult to rank, but I guess I can understand why most people like it higher on the list than I do. It can certainly make a big impact in certain situations, depending on your draws. The thing is, if your draws are lucky enough, you'll pretty much never need to buy it.
About these 3.

In the games I played with travelling fair they it was never bought. We just didn't need the +Buy and was too steep for it. 18 seems perfect for it, if not a tad lower. I just still think it's a run of the mill card, slightly above average.

Scouting Party is really good, perhaps you just had a few unlucky draws with it. I've used it to great sucess opening Peasant and Peasant/Scouting party. is a great price for 2 card cycling.

Borrow, Alms, and Save all rate different depending on how you rate cards. I rated them all very high because in almost all games you purchase them. If instead of looking at how much you got them, what if you looked at how much good they did you? Then it seems substantibly weaker as it's a one-shot. Scouting party can skip 3 now but Wharehouse might sift 12 in it's lifetime. That's why the Events are so variably rated. Since it's a one shot they can seem inherrently worse then most cards, but if you ignore that, then they seem so much better. But should you ignore that?
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2016, 09:10:21 am »
+1

Delve - 20 on Qvist, 27 on mine

It's interesting but utlimately uninteresting in most games it's in. Who buys Silver in 2016?

You do!  Out of curiosity, I looked at your last ten games on Gokosalvager (12/3-12/6).  You bought Silver in 9/10 games.  And in the tenth, you gained Silver with Jack of All Trades.

Point taken  :-[

But seriously, I'm not buying more than two Silver on a lot of boards, and rarely do I think a Silver would be a great add-on buy to a $3 card I'm overpaying for or something like that. It makes BM and slogs a fair bit better, I just don't really think the deck it produces is competitive on many engine boards.
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Limetime

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2016, 10:37:44 am »
+1

Scouting Party (31/21*): I just don't see the appeal. Sorry guys. It's just a last resort buy if you happen to have $2 leftover, and one that can seriously backfire at that.
Scouting party can make money strats viable even after heavy greening.
Early it is good for engines because seeing your important card 1 turn sooner has real value.
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funkdoc

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2016, 05:39:40 pm »
0

squire is a village, you guys

villages are always underrated in these things, period. never fails

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2016, 05:42:38 pm »
0

squire is a village, you guys

villages are always underrated in these things, period. never fails
Squire is really overated.
Ask mic.
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Dingan

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2016, 06:22:26 pm »
+2

I can't believe Stonemason is #4.  No doubt it affects the overall flow of a game a lot, with 3 piling and what not.  And yeah it has cool tricks -- turning Golds into 6vp late, Quarry, getting 2 Scrying Pools per turn, etc. -- but seriously!?  Better than Save, Raze, Alms, Borrow (can you guess what I had at #4 through 7?) !?!?  I mean, anything can do cool tricks given the right Kingdom (Secret Chamber, Transmute, etc.).  I don't get it.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 06:23:35 pm by Dingan »
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2016, 03:46:11 am »
0

I can't believe Stonemason is #4.  No doubt it affects the overall flow of a game a lot, with 3 piling and what not.  And yeah it has cool tricks -- turning Golds into 6vp late, Quarry, getting 2 Scrying Pools per turn, etc. -- but seriously!?  Better than Save, Raze, Alms, Borrow (can you guess what I had at #4 through 7?) !?!?  I mean, anything can do cool tricks given the right Kingdom (Secret Chamber, Transmute, etc.).  I don't get it.

4 might be a bit high (I had it on #7), but it's definitely a strong card. Getting a second copy of a power $5 card for only $2 extra and no buy is extremely good, even if it comes with a card that's not that strong in its own right. Basically it's an on-gain gainer that can seriously kickstart an engine at an early stage, even without the cool tricks you mentioned.

Save, Alms and Borrow are hard to rank, but Raze is probably similar in strength to Stonemason. In fact, if both were on the board and the rest of the board is engine friendly, I'd almost always open Stonemason+2xRaze/Silver.
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jsh357

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2016, 06:52:38 pm »
+4

I was going to share my ratings but lost it and now can't access them...

I think ranking all cards meticulously is silly, (Like I'm not going to stress whether Page or Peasant is better since they're in the same tier anyway) so I just look at broad areas of where I think things should be. I would have shared my tiers, but again, my stuff is wiped...

With that said, my disagreements with the community list are:
- Embargo is too high. It's almost always a bad plan and in fact one that turns around to bite you quite often. One-shot Silver is "pretty good sometimes" but I'd be joking if I said it was great. Similarly, I would consider Tax to be in the lowest tier. It's a little less of a risk than Embargo since you aren't adding a terminal, but not above cards that can win you games at times, e.g. Beggar and Moat.
- Poor House is probably too high but I'm not going to fight this too hard.
- Scouting Party is tricky to rank but I'd boost it at least one tier higher than where it is. Its use depends on the size of decks, how much junk there is, what your end goal with it is, but if you have that it's a very useful event.
- I would place Settlers below Vagrant and Patrician, though directly below them. It barely matters, but decks where you want to trash all your Copper or are reshuffling enough that it never finds Copper are common enough that it duds a lot.
- Travelling Fair can probably go up a tier.
- This isn't disagreeing with the list so much as agreeing with Delve's placement. You guys can gain bunches of Silver if you want; I'd prefer winning games. lol But seriously, I mostly agree with Limetime on this one. Silver being cheaper doesn't actually make it a better card. It just makes it easier to get. That's worth something, but not enough to call it a top event.
- Advance is pretty good, but I'd drop it down a tier.
- I would put CSM and Squire below the Vagrant class. They tend to have hidden opportunity cost, though they can certainly be linchpins in certain decks.
- Borrow should definitely be in the top 10.
- I would drop Ratcatcher down two tiers. I think it's a very overestimated trasher in general.
- Encampment belongs in the top 10 and people should realize this by next year. Ridiculously good card.
- Save is top 5. There are lots of games where I buy it almost every turn.
- Courtyard had its day in the sun, but I think deserves to continue dropping. Just one more tier, really.
- Coin of the Realm belongs in the top 10, but probably a few spots lower. Same for Hamlet. I'm actually surprised Hamlet bounced back up so far.
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