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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« on: December 04, 2016, 12:29:13 pm »
+15

50+ votes for Empires cards, 65 votes for the rest.



The Best - Cards (Part 1/4)

#39 =0 Duchess (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 4.9% ▼4.5pp / Unweighted Average: 6.1% / Median: 2.6% ▼3.7pp / Standard Deviation: 11.2%

Duchess is last just like last year and the first voting. It lost a lot of points and was voted last 22 times. It has the second lowest deviation in this list.
#38 =0 Secret Chamber (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 6.3% ▼3.7pp / Unweighted Average: 8.5% / Median: 2.6% ▼2.2pp / Standard Deviation: 14.3%

Secret Chamber also stays on the same rank and is only slightly voted better than Duchess. It has also the same amount of last ranks, 22.
#37 ▼1 Pearl Diver (Seaside) Weighted Average: 13.1% ▼4.2pp / Unweighted Average: 13.3% / Median: 9.4% ▼6.2pp  / Standard Deviation: 11.6%

Pearl Diver lost one rank and is like every time (with the exception of last year) third to last. It has already quite a solid lead over the bottom 2. It was voted last 3 times and has the third lowest deviation in this list.
#36 ▲1 Herbalist (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 16.3% ▲0.8pp / Unweighted Average: 17.9% / Median: 15.8% ▲3.3pp / Standard Deviation: 13.6%

Herbalist is one rank higher and the first card with a better average than last year and is with the exception of last year fourth last again. It was voted last twice.
#35 =0 Beggar (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 18.5% ▼2.9pp / Unweighted Average: 21.2% / Median: 13.2% ▼5.6pp / Standard Deviation: 19.0%

Beggar stays where it was. Its median is even worse than Herbalist's. It has one vote on last.
#34 =0 Embargo (Seaside) Weighted Average: 19.2% ▼7.7pp / Unweighted Average: 21.5% / Median: 15.8% ▼12.3pp / Standard Deviation: 15.9%

Embargo stays also where it was, but has lost quite a lot, nearly 8pp and its median even more. It is the first card with no vote on the last rank.
#33 =0 Quest (Adventures) Weighted Average: 25.4% ▼4.0pp / Unweighted Average: 29.1% / Median: 23.7% ▼1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 18.3%

This is the first event after the second bigger gap in this list, this time over 6pp. Quest stays also where it was and lost also a bit.
#32 Tax (Empires) Weighted Average: 25.6% / Unweighted Average: 27.0% / Median: 18.4% / Standard Deviation: 24.3%

Here is the first new Empires card and the second event. It has only a small lead over Quest. Its rank is quite convoluted given it has the second highest deviation in this list - it was also voted last 4 times. It has also quite a notable low median in comparism to its average.
#31 ▼2 Moat (Base) Weighted Average: 26.9% ▼8.4pp / Unweighted Average: 29.6% / Median: 26.3% ▼2.9pp / Standard Deviation: 17.3%

Moat lost two ranks, but a lot of points, over 8pp. It was voted last once.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2016, 12:29:30 pm »
+10

The Best - Cards (Part 2/4)



#30 ▼2 Vagrant (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 31.2% ▼5.4pp / Unweighted Average: 31.0% / Median: 28.1% ▼6.3pp / Standard Deviation: 16.2%

Vagrant has a solid lead of over 4pp over Moat. After rising the last 2 years, it lost just like Moat 2 ranks and a significant amount of points.
#29 ▲1 Poor House (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 32.2% ▲0.5pp / Unweighted Average: 31.6% / Median: 26.3% ▼1.7pp / Standard Deviation: 20.5%

After losing ranks the last 2 years, Poor House won one rank, but stayed nearly the same average wise. It has still a decent amount of disagreement.
#28 ▼1 Haven (Seaside) Weighted Average: 36.9% ▼4.7pp / Unweighted Average: 37.8% / Median: 36.8% ▼6.1pp / Standard Deviation: 20.4%

Haven continues to slowly lose ranks year after year. Again it lost one rank and nearly 5pp. Just like Poor House, it has a lot of divergent views. It has also a decent lead over Poor House of nearly 5pp.
#27 ▼2 Cellar (Base) Weighted Average: 37.4% ▼5.5pp / Unweighted Average: 39.8% / Median: 34.2% ▼7.0pp / Standard Deviation: 19.2%

After gaining 2 ranks the last 2 years, it lost 2 again. It also lost over 5pp. It is still one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
#26 Patrician (Empires) Weighted Average: 39.9% / Unweighted Average: 40.6% / Median: 39.5% / Standard Deviation: 18.6%

Here's the second new Empires card. It is 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
#25 ▲5 Scouting Party (Adventures) Weighted Average: 40.0% ▲8.4pp / Unweighted Average: 39.3% / Median: 39.5% ▲11.4pp / Standard Deviation: 21.7%

Scouting Party is one of the winners in this year's list. It is 5 ranks and over 8pp better than last year, but only 0.04pp better than Patrician. In the unweighted ranking it is still 2 ranks lower. It also has quite a high deviation.
#24 Settlers (Empires) Weighted Average: 40.0% / Unweighted Average: 40.3% / Median: 36.8% / Standard Deviation: 20.5%

And here's even the next Empires card. Like the card before it has only a lead of 0.04pp. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.
#23 ▲1 Pawn (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 43.8% ▲1.5pp / Unweighted Average: 46.2% / Median: 44.7% ▲1.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.6%

Pawn continues to stay in the midfield, this time it's one rank higher than last year.
#22 ▼2 Native Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 45.7% ▼6.0pp / Unweighted Average: 50.2% / Median: 50.0% ▼3.9pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

Native Village is this time slightly below average, lost quite a bit: 2 ranks and 6pp.
#21 ▲1 Travelling Fair (Adventures) Weighted Average: 49.8% ▲2.0pp / Unweighted Average: 50.0% / Median: 50.0% ▲3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 22.2%

Travelling Fair is this time the card closest to average. It is one rank better, but has still a lot of disagreement.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 01:15:26 pm by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2016, 12:29:59 pm »
+9

The Best - Cards (Part 3/4)



#20 Delve (Empires) Weighted Average: 55.1% / Unweighted Average: 53.1% / Median: 52.6% / Standard Deviation: 25.3%

We're starting part 3 with another new card. Delve has a lead over #21 of over 5pp. It's the card with the highest deviation in this list.
#19 ▼5 Crossroads (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 56.1% ▼2.5pp / Unweighted Average: 58.3% / Median: 59.4% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.1%

Crossroads is a big loser this year after being quite stable the last years: It lost 5 ranks. But the deviation is quite low for a mid ranked card. It is still 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
#18 Advance (Empires) Weighted Average: 56.8% / Unweighted Average: 57.0% / Median: 52.6% / Standard Deviation: 18.0%

Advance is the next new card, the second best Empires card.
#17 ▼5 Candlestick Maker (Guilds) Weighted Average: 58.6% ▼3.1pp / Unweighted Average: 60.0% / Median: 63.2% ▲0.7pp / Standard Deviation: 19.4%

And after Crossroads, Candlestick Maker is the next big loser. It also lost 5 ranks while having an even better median, interesting. It is one rank better in the unweighted ranking.
#16 ▲1 Borrow (Adventures) Weighted Average: 59.8% ▲7.1p / Unweighted Average: 54.1% / Median: 52.6% ▼0.5pp / Standard Deviation: 23.3%

Borrow is only one rank, but over 7pp better. It has a pretty high deviation and is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking, so it seems underappreciated by newer players.
#15 ▼5 Squire (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 61.6% ▼8.0pp / Unweighted Average: 64.3% / Median: 65.8% ▼5.6pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

And this is the third loser which lost 5 ranks. It even lost 8pp too. It is still 4 ranks higher in the unweighted list, so this one gets overvalued by newer players.
#14 ▼5 Lighthouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 63.2% ▼9.1pp / Unweighted Average: 62.4% / Median: 63.2% ▼11.8pp / Standard Deviation: 19.8%

And ... you guessed it, the fourth card which lost 5 ranks, this time even 9pp. It continues to lose ranks slightly year after year.
#13 ▼2 Ratcatcher (Adventures) Weighted Average: 63.7% ▼1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 63.8% / Median: 65.8% ▲0.2pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1%

Ratcatcher lost 2 ranks and is one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.
#12 Encampment (Empires) Weighted Average: 66.3% / Unweighted Average: 62.0% / Median: 63.2% / Standard Deviation: 21.6%

Encampment is clearly the best new Empires card, but is 3 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking, so weaker players don't appreciate it that much.
#11 ▲3 Alms (Adventures) Weighted Average: 66.7% ▲9.9p / Unweighted Average: 62.9% / Median: 65.6% ▲2.8p / Standard Deviation: 23.3%

Alms won 3 ranks, but nearly 10pp, that's quite a lot. It has still a pretty high deviation. It is 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 03:25:13 pm by Qvist »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2016, 12:30:07 pm »
+8

The Best - Cards (Part 4/4)



#10 ▲8 Save (Adventures) Weighted Average: 69.2% ▲18.4pp / Unweighted Average: 65.3% / Median: 73.7% ▲29.9pp / Standard Deviation: 23.7%

We're starting the last part with a big jump. Save won 8 ranks and nearly 20pp, its median is even 30pp higher. That's a significant change. It has the third highest deviation though.
#9 ▼3 Fool's Gold (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 69.5% ▼7.0pp / Unweighted Average: 71.8% / Median: 78.2% ▼6.2pp / Standard Deviation: 19.6%

Fool's Gold was #2 once, but it lost 2 ranks last year, this year even 3 ranks. It's still 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking.
#8 ▼3 Courtyard (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 69.9% ▼6.8pp / Unweighted Average: 69.5% / Median: 73.7% ▼6.4pp / Standard Deviation: 21.4%

Courtyard stayed at the same relative rank since the beginning, but now lost 3 ranks. It was voted first once.
#7 ▲8 Raze (Adventures) Weighted Average: 71.4% ▲17.2pp / Unweighted Average: 67.7% / Median: 76.3% ▲22.7pp / Standard Deviation: 23.2%

Just like the other Adventures card, Save, Raze won 8 ranks and a lot of points. It is in the unweighted ranking 2 ranks lower. It has a pretty high deviation as well.
#6 ▲7 Coin of the Realm (Adventures) Weighted Average: 72.8% ▲14.7pp / Unweighted Average: 73.6% / Median: 73.7% ▲14.3pp / Standard Deviation: 15.4%

This is the third Adventures card close together which was heavily undervalued last year. This card rises 7 ranks. It was voted first twice.
#5 ▲2 Hamlet (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 74.0% ▼2.4pp / Unweighted Average: 74.5% / Median: 76.3% ▼4.7pp / Standard Deviation: 15.2%

Hamlet lost the last 2 years a few ranks, but now went back up 2 ranks even though its average is worse.
#4 =0 Stonemason (Guilds) Weighted Average: 79.6% ▼0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 76.0% / Median: 84.2% ▲2.9pp / Standard Deviation: 21.9%

After climbing a lot of ranks last year, it stays the same rank-wise and average-wise. It was voted first twice.
#3 =0 Peasant (Adventures) Weighted Average: 91.2% ▲9.0pp / Unweighted Average: 87.8% / Median: 94.7% ▲7.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.2%

Peasant has a lead over Stonemason of over 11pp, so the top 3 are clearly better than the rest. Peasant stays the same but still won 9pp. It was voted first 8 times.
#2 =0 Page (Adventures) Weighted Average: 92.2% ▲4.6pp / Unweighted Average: 89.9% / Median: 94.7% ▲4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 12.0%

Page stays on #2 as well, but only has a 1pp lead over Peasant, so those two Travellers are really close. It has a really low deviation. It has less first ranks than Peasant, only 6 of them.
#1 =0 Chapel (Base) Weighted Average: 97.7% ▲0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 98.0% / Median: 100% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 4.1%

Chapel is still clearly #1, its average also stayed the same and its deviation is by far the lowest in this list, so it's really uncontested. It has 44 votes on the first rank.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 01:27:52 pm by Qvist »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2016, 12:36:54 pm »
+1

Man, the new Moat looks so good. Other than that, this list isn't very surprising.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2016, 12:57:35 pm »
0

Herbalist is quite nice with Capital.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2016, 01:03:28 pm »
0

Herbalist / Encampment is a legitimate combo. It's got a bunch more reasons to use it now. It's worth thinking about.

Quest isn't THAT bad, but I guess there's not a lot worse than it on this list.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2016, 01:50:46 pm »
+1

tax is underrated
herbalist is uh underrated
everything else is whatever
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2016, 02:06:26 pm »
0

I'm disappointed to see that Quest didn't go up after last year.  It's primary use, IMO is that you can overbuy terminal attacks.  I initially thought the option to discard 6 cards was also good, but games have led me to conclude that it is not.

At the very least, I think Quest should be above Tax.  So far, I have only bought Tax when there was nothing else decent, and have found it to be even more marginal than Pearl Diver.  Granted, I can imagine some scenarios where Tax might be important, whereas it is difficult to think of such situations with Pearl Diver (Mystic?).

I see that Scouting Party and Poor House have gone up, based on their absence in ranks #39-31.  That seems warranted.  Look forward to seeing how much/little they changed.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2016, 02:13:16 pm »
0

I also think Tax is underrated, but oh well.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2016, 07:42:44 pm »
0

It's interesting that the overall opinion of these cards is so stable. I wonder how many new people submitted rankings this year. I know I was one of them (well I hope so).

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2016, 08:35:11 pm »
0

Tax is reasonable. It's actually a pretty annoying event and changes the way you approach the game, much like the Landmarks do. For that reason, it's hard to rank. I also like Moat. But, I have no idea where I ranked it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2016, 08:50:10 pm »
0

I don't even know if my ranks counted.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2016, 09:04:44 pm »
+4

I don't even know if my ranks counted.

We'll know when we get to Scout.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2016, 11:45:13 pm »
0

If the game goes long enough begger - tower is really good. I would also say that the effect is not only useful with diverging strategies like embargo. Embargo tokens stay relevant till the curses are gone. Tax stays relevant until the card is bought. Tax is more useful in that for an extra two you can give two debts to your opponent. This is only true when your opponent really needs to buy a card. If they do not buy that card then you hurt yourself. It's pretty funny when all the cheap cards have debts on them and you can't break out of the stalemate unscathed. Hopefully shuffle it will have some sort of draw/ make game not count as anything to solve this problem.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 11:55:29 pm by Limetime »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2016, 03:46:54 am »
+1

I don't know where exactly Scouting Party is going to end up, but it's definitely too high already.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2016, 05:10:33 am »
0

I don't know where exactly Scouting Party is going to end up, but it's definitely too high already.

Not really. So far we've seen a bunch of cards that you don't really even want for free a lot of the time and a couple of cards that you can buy if you can't do anything, for a marginal benefit.  You do want to buy Scouting Party pretty much every time, it doesn't cost you the buy so the opportunity cost is even lower than that of, say, Pearl Diver, and the benefit is not amazing but it's significant. If we see it in the next post, it's exactly where it should be in my opinion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2016, 07:38:31 am »
0

Prediction: Alms, Coin of the Realm, Raze, and Save, and Scouting Party will all be rated significantly higher than last year - and deservedly so.  I expect Alms to be the biggest winner, but I'm prepared to be disappointed.

That said, I do expect to see Scouting Party in the next batch of cards.  On some boards (those without strong trashing, or those where fast cycling is especially important, or those without extra gaining), Scouting Party is very valuable.  But on others, it's pretty weak.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2016, 08:11:47 am »
0

That said, I do expect to see Scouting Party in the next batch of cards.  On some boards (those without strong trashing, or those where fast cycling is especially important, or those without extra gaining), Scouting Party is very valuable.  But on others, it's pretty weak.

A lot of cards or card-shaped things that force you to do things you don't really want to do suffer on these ratings. When they're good, they're fine, but when they're bad they leave a poor taste in your mouth. I had a game a while ago where I bought Scouting Party a few times hoping to clear out some upcoming junk but was forced to discard a number of engine pieces (turns out the junk was in the *next* five cards). Lookout obviously suffers from this problem, so does Loan.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2016, 08:23:58 am »
+2

I don't know where exactly Scouting Party is going to end up, but it's definitely too high already.

Nah this is super wrong. Scouting Party is very good on enough boards to justify being in the middle of the pack. Name a card you'be already seen that's clearly better than it?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2016, 10:22:16 am »
0

I know I was one of them (well I hope so).

I don't even know if my ranks counted.

Well, if you clicked on save, your votes for sure count. (too lazy to actually look :P)

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2016, 01:16:01 pm »
+1

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2016, 01:33:58 pm »
0

Vagrant should be lower than moat, Patrician should also be lower.  Also I feel like Settlers will be higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2016, 02:20:13 pm »
0

Scouting Party is better than Settlers. Patrician kind of sucks but people will get that eventually.

Traveling Fair is also criminally underrated, but perhaps I'm forgetting how good the other 20 $2 cost cards are.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2016, 02:27:19 pm »
+2

Patrician kind of sucks but people will get that eventually.

The problem with Patrician is that it's a late-game card that costs .  There's zero point in opening with it.  It's nice later in the game when you've actually built up your deck and want a little more consistency, but by that point the Emporia are kind of pointless, if they even ever get revealed at all.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2016, 02:38:57 pm »
0

Patrician kind of sucks but people will get that eventually.

The problem with Patrician is that it's a late-game card that costs .  There's zero point in opening with it.  It's nice later in the game when you've actually built up your deck and want a little more consistency, but by that point the Emporia are kind of pointless, if they even ever get revealed at all.

Well probably you'll still open Patrician on a 5/2 if there's nothing better. And likewise if you ever get a $2 hand a bit later, or if you have an extra buy and $2. And sometimes you might prioritize Patricians just to help you get VP from Emporiums later, though I guess time will tell on how practical that is.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2016, 03:41:05 pm »
+1

Based on its absence from #21-30, it looks like Save went up.  Very deserving!

Among the Adventures cards, I think the one that most deserves to go down is Ratcatcher (at 10/33).  Hope to see that in the next part!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2016, 05:36:16 pm »
0

native village is a village, you guys

patrician, eh. i'm not convinced it's that bad

Based on its absence from #21-30, it looks like Save went up.  Very deserving!
yeah i have it at 11
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 05:37:53 pm by schadd »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2016, 06:06:09 pm »
0

Settlers is weaker than Patrician, even when the bottom half of the piles are taken into account.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2016, 07:12:12 pm »
+4


Based on its absence from #21-30, it looks like Save went up.  Very deserving!
yeah i have it at 11

I bought Adventures on release day, and I don't think I've ever played a game wherein Save was available and I didn't use it. The card is perpetually useful in numerous ways (saving money that you can't spend, making green miss the shuffle, holding one of your colliding terminals, getting Treasure Maps together, getting Prince and a proper 4-cost together, getting any Throne Room variant with the action you want it to multi-play together, and so on and so forth).
I actually ranked it 5, just behind the usual suspects. Maybe I'm biased, but the card does some work.

Settlers is weaker than Patrician

Definitely this. Settlers is more often cantrip+air than anything. Sure, its a 2-cost Peddler when it works, but that relies on not trashing all your Copper (which is hard in the late game) and not shuffling (which is hard in the early game). Patrician, meanwhile, can at least start hitting with some consistency once you've trashed a bit and purchased a fair share of 5s. Unfortunately, Patrician in multiples in a bit non-synergistic.
Both Settlers and Patrician are nifty $2 Labs when they work, but their situational abilities are trickier than they first appear. I would easily put Cellar above both (and did).

Travelling Fair is criminally underrated. Probably has something to do with the double L spelling variant.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2016, 03:25:49 pm »
0

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2016, 03:31:45 pm »
0

The big losers in Part 3 are mostly stop cards with benefits that don't always matter much. Crossroads is sometimes an exception but it's fiddly. These drops feel well deserved, but I haven't compared them to my own ranking yet.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2016, 03:52:56 pm »
+1

squire is a village, you guys
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2016, 04:13:16 pm »
+2

Man, I sure buy Delve a lot more than I buy Advance, I tell you what.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2016, 04:15:03 pm »
0

Man, I sure buy Delve a lot more than I buy Advance, I tell you what.

I haven't voted for Delve, but it definitely is better than most of the cards higher. Squire, Encampment, Lighthouse, Advance etc.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2016, 04:16:06 pm »
+1

Finally, Ratcatcher has been placed below Raze, correcting one of the most glaring errors in 2015.  My rankings do have many differences with official rankings, but I feel like we should at least agree on the relative strength of cards that fulfill similar functions.

I feel like Encampment is overrated, but it's also a very difficult card.  Once Empires goes online I look forward to seeing better players show us what it can do.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2016, 04:41:20 pm »
0

I'll join the crowd that thinks Delve is underrated.  I had Delve way up in the single digits above Fool's Gold.  I haven't played with Delve much yet, so I look forward to more playtesting in 2017.

I'm glad to see Alms rise (and with an especially higher weighted rank).  It's a tricky card to evaluate, but I think its still underrated.  See here for the arguments.

It looks like I was correct about Alms, Coin of the Realm, Raze, Save, and Scouting Party all getting a big upward evaluation.  Well deserved.  Borrow also saw a pretty big boost, which seems reasonable; though, I think I rated Travelling Fair a little higher than Borrow.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2016, 04:49:01 pm »
0

Delve = silver = curse
Therefore delve = curse
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2016, 05:24:30 pm »
0

Man, I sure buy Delve a lot more than I buy Advance, I tell you what.

It seems that the majority of time you buy Advance, you could likely buy Delve+Advance instead.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2016, 05:29:09 pm »
+2

Man, I sure buy Delve a lot more than I buy Advance, I tell you what.

It seems that the majority of time you buy Advance, you could likely buy Delve+Advance instead.

Strangely, though, I have many more games with either Delve or Advance than I have with both.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2016, 05:29:15 pm »
+1

Encampment has been underrated.  I'd say it's stronger than Hamlet, Coin of the Realm, and Courtyard.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2016, 08:41:10 pm »
0

My notable differences:
I had...
Scouting Party at #17
Ratcatcher at #26
and
Encampment at #4

Encampment would be good at $2 even if it was always a one-shot, but get a few golds and/or plunders and decent trashing and it's a lost city without the drawback for $2. I don't understand how it isn't in the top ten.

I also had Advance higher, but I wouldn't put it so high now (My views have already changed in the past month I guess).
EDIT: When I was first looking for notable differences, I didn't notice I also had coin of the realm a bit lower (probably too low, but I still don't think I'd put it in the top ten).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 08:47:11 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2016, 11:17:04 pm »
0

Holy shit, you voters haven't a clue how good Advance and Encampment are. None at all.

(Of course at the end of this I'm gonna look at my list and find out that Advance and Encampment are right there too, lol. But seriously, Advance at 18???)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2016, 11:18:14 pm »
0

Holy shit, you voters haven't a clue how good Advance and Encampment are. None at all.

(Of course at the end of this I'm gonna look at my list and find out that Advance and Encampment are right there too, lol. But seriously, Advance at 18???)

I think we've gone from overrating new cards to underrating them.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2016, 11:49:20 pm »
0

I'd love to hear why other people think Encampment is good, since I figure most people here are better players than me.  My feeling is that if you buy an Encampment only to lose it the next shuffle, it's like a delayed mini-Expedition.  That sounds pretty bad, and it feels bad in practice too.  It's amazing when you get to keep it, but people seem to be claiming that it's good even before then.

I ranked Advance pretty close to where it sits now.  The thing about Advance is that you can get a $5-cost on your second shuffle by trashing an action.  But generally, you'd rather just play the action to hit $5 naturally.  Of course, with the right cards, Advance can be amazing.  I once got a Rats/Squire/Advance thing going.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2016, 11:51:11 pm »
0

Advance is kinda like rats. It isn't very good most of the time but when it's good its good. There are still a ton of good cards up there so there is no reason to be calling it under rated. They can't all be the best two costs ever.

Encampment at #4

Encampment is not #4. I can name 4 2 cost cards off the top of my head that are defiantly better than it. Stonemason, page, peasant, chapel.

I also am seeing the arguments for borrow being underrated.
Borrow variants of big money are some of the fastest ones so i think borrow should be in top ten. Certainly better than courtyard.

Ratcatcher is also not level 26. It is about as good fools gold.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2016, 12:40:18 am »
0

Encampment at #4

Encampment is not #4. I can name 4 2 cost cards off the top of my head that are defiantly better than it. Stonemason, page, peasant, chapel.
I have Stonemason at #5.
EDIT: Looking at my list, I was mistaken. I actually have Stonemason at #7 behind Courtyard #5 and Fool's Gold #6. I would do that a little differently if I did it today...

Ratcatcher is also not level 26. It is about as good fools gold.
I doubt it.

EDIT: I have Raze at #13.
...Lighthouse #15
Squire #14
Borrow #12
Save #11
Hamlet #10
Alms #9
Advance #8  (I'd put this lower if I did it today, but not as low as #18)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 02:07:16 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2016, 01:18:16 am »
0

Yeah, Ratcatcher is nowhere close to Fool's Gold; it's way better.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2016, 07:09:47 am »
+2

So here the disagreements start.

We should already have seen Fool's Gold. It's not as good as Alms or Emcampment.

Ratcatcher is way overrated. I also don't understand why Qvist calls it a "strong trasher"; it's not. Most other trashers are better. Ratcatcher is still fairly good because it trashes, but with other trashers around, you usually don't want this.

I'm glad to see the cards lose that did lose. Some of them could lose even more.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2016, 07:22:55 am »
0

Yeah, Ratcatcher is nowhere close to Fool's Gold; it's way better.

They are both severely overrated.

Fool's Gold is mainly a BM card and BM boards are getting increasingly uncommon. Unless you have a very reliable engine that overdraws itself, you don't want it in your engine.

Ratcatcher is so so slow. You really cannot afford to draw it any later than turn 3 or it already missed your second shuffle. Chapel on turn 5 is bad, Ratcatcher on turn 4 is MUCH worse since it only trashes one card. To be fair, we didn't see Raze yet so Raze is well above Ratcatcher, as it should be. :)

Also, I haven't played with Delve yet but I can't imagine rank 20 is any good. At first glance it seems about as strong as the Travellers, definitely top 5 material. But maybe it's not as overwhelming as it looks, I don't know.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2016, 08:28:51 am »
0

I am pretty happy with where Ratcatcher sits. It's probably the lowest opportunity cost trasher, and it plays a unique role among trashing cards. It's not so bad you would prefer no trasher to it on many boards (trade route).

It is uniquely good because it gets out of the way and stays there unless you use it. No trasher has less long term impact on your deck. It has a niche in being able to ditch that Chapel without leaving any residue in your deck, and that's handy.

It's not stellar but it gets the job done. Raze is better, sure.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2016, 08:50:34 am »
0

I am pretty happy with where Ratcatcher sits. It's probably the lowest opportunity cost trasher, and it plays a unique role among trashing cards. It's not so bad you would prefer no trasher to it on many boards (trade route).

It is uniquely good because it gets out of the way and stays there unless you use it. No trasher has less long term impact on your deck. It has a niche in being able to ditch that Chapel without leaving any residue in your deck, and that's handy.

It's not stellar but it gets the job done. Raze is better, sure.

Well yeah, I agree, Ratcatcher has a niche, it's not completely awful. If nothing else it's a very easy $2 buy that never harms your deck (outside of terminal draw-BM and similar cases). And trashing is always good. But as far as trashing goes, Ratcatcher is so incredibly slow that place #13 is definitely too high. It's an average $2 card at best.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2016, 09:07:14 am »
0

I am pretty happy with where Ratcatcher sits. It's probably the lowest opportunity cost trasher, and it plays a unique role among trashing cards. It's not so bad you would prefer no trasher to it on many boards (trade route).

It is uniquely good because it gets out of the way and stays there unless you use it. No trasher has less long term impact on your deck. It has a niche in being able to ditch that Chapel without leaving any residue in your deck, and that's handy.

It's not stellar but it gets the job done. Raze is better, sure.

Well yeah, I agree, Ratcatcher has a niche, it's not completely awful. If nothing else it's a very easy $2 buy that never harms your deck (outside of terminal draw-BM and similar cases). And trashing is always good. But as far as trashing goes, Ratcatcher is so incredibly slow that place #13 is definitely too high. It's an average $2 card at best.

Consider the average $2 card is #19, #12 ain't bad.

Also worth noting that Ratcatcher is oddly enough one of the best trashers for terminal draw BM! Staying out of your deck is very handy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2016, 09:34:31 am »
0

Fool's gold is actually mainly a payload card. In engines where you can draw deck it is 4$ for 2$ 1buy. If you want some examples wanderingwinder has exemplified this in at least on of his videos.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2016, 09:37:58 am »
0

I also don't understand why Qvist calls it a "strong trasher"

Well to be fair I called nearly all the cards in this part strong, I have Ratcatcher at #18, I definitely agree that it should be lower. It's still strong (upper half material) because it is a cantrip trasher, it's just too slow to be better. I also said that you need many of those.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2016, 12:01:54 pm »
0

Fool's gold is actually mainly a payload card. In engines where you can draw deck it is 4$ for 2$ 1buy. If you want some examples wanderingwinder has exemplified this in at least on of his videos.
True, but then it doesn't really deserve to be that much better than Poor House.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2016, 01:20:41 pm »
+5

Fool's gold is actually mainly a payload card. In engines where you can draw deck it is 4$ for 2$ 1buy. If you want some examples wanderingwinder has exemplified this in at least on of his videos.
True, but then it doesn't really deserve to be that much better than Poor House.

Let's make a pros and cons list of going for Fool's Gold over Poor House.  Let's start with cons:
* Poor House is ever so slightly cheaper in a way that is almost never meaningful
* Poor House can be Throned/King's Courted
Now pros:
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Doesn't mind you having other Treasures in hand
* Plays nicely with Stables
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Has a nifty opener with Nomad Camp
* Is great with Treasure gainers, like Mint and Mine
* Doesn't take an Action to play
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2016, 01:28:30 pm »
+1

And the final Part 4

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2016, 01:34:48 pm »
+2

I think the top ten is mostly right. Peasant is better than Page, Save is better than FG / Courtyard, but close enough. Later today I'll do one of those Adam style "compare my list to this list" mega posts
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2016, 01:37:42 pm »
0

I think the top ten is mostly right. Peasant is better than Page, Save is better than FG / Courtyard, but close enough. Later today I'll do one of those Adam style "compare my list to this list" mega posts
I was gonna post all of this. Honestly, I don't think Courtyard should be in there, it needs to be replaced by Delve.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2016, 02:11:57 pm »
+1

I have Encampment at 5, and I may be underrating it. You guys have no idea how crazy good that card is.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2016, 02:24:19 pm »
+1

I have Encampment at 5, and I may be underrating it. You guys have no idea how crazy good that card is.
I have encampment at 10. There are a bunch of good cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2016, 02:33:05 pm »
0

I think the top ten is mostly right. Peasant is better than Page, Save is better than FG / Courtyard, but close enough. Later today I'll do one of those Adam style "compare my list to this list" mega posts
I was gonna post all of this. Honestly, I don't think Courtyard should be in there, it needs to be replaced by Delve.
Why does everyone love silver now that it's two dollars, 0 buys?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2016, 03:00:21 pm »
0

I think the top ten is mostly right. Peasant is better than Page, Save is better than FG / Courtyard, but close enough. Later today I'll do one of those Adam style "compare my list to this list" mega posts
I was gonna post all of this. Honestly, I don't think Courtyard should be in there, it needs to be replaced by Delve.
Why does everyone love silver now that it's two dollars, 0 buys?

I don't. Delve is okay, but nothing great.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2016, 03:28:54 pm »
+2

Why does everyone love silver now that it's two dollars, 0 buys?

You don't have to love a card to believe it's strong.  See Cultist, Rebuild, Urchin, etc...  Delve powers up a lot of money strategies.  The ability to buy Silver + action on $6 or $7 is huge.  Or Silver + Province on $10+.  Terminal draw + Delve is really strong (especially Courtyard).  Strong junker + Delve is often going to be a dominant combination.  Then there are the cards that synergize with Silver, like: Storyteller, Counterfeit, and Feodum.  Delve is also good in many openings, even when you're making an engine.  Delve is good in a 3/4 opening with a power $2.  Occasionally, double Delve + $3 trasher is going to be a strong opening.  Delve + $5 card will usually be a great opening.

Personally, I'm looking forward to playing with Delve.  It looks like the kind of event that will make moneyish strategies more interesting to play, especially as it minimizes awkward price points (similar to Save).  I already tend to pursue moneyish strategies when the engine is weak, and Delve be a strong push in that direction.  Time will tell how powerful it is.  I suspect it compares favorably with Fool's Gold.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2016, 03:44:45 pm »
0

So who wants to kick off the annual discussion about if there will ever be a $s card better than Chapel?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2016, 03:46:27 pm »
0

So who wants to kick off the annual discussion about if there will ever be a $s card better than Chapel?
I put peasant over Chapel.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2016, 03:57:56 pm »
+3

So who wants to kick off the annual discussion about if there will ever be a $s card better than Chapel?

Choutpel

- Action

+1 Action

Trash up to 4 Victory cards from your hand.  Put the rest back in any order.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2016, 04:08:47 pm »
0

So who wants to kick off the annual discussion about if there will ever be a $s card better than Chapel?
I put peasant over Chapel.
Why?

So who wants to kick off the annual discussion about if there will ever be a $s card better than Chapel?

Choutpel

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Trash up to 4 Victory cards from your hand.  Put the rest back in any order.
I appreciate that  :)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2016, 04:16:18 pm »
+1

fool's gold sux
we're warming up to peasant > page
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 08:16:00 am by schadd »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2016, 05:19:18 pm »
0

Fool's gold is actually mainly a payload card. In engines where you can draw deck it is 4$ for 2$ 1buy. If you want some examples wanderingwinder has exemplified this in at least on of his videos.
True, but then it doesn't really deserve to be that much better than Poor House.

Let's make a pros and cons list of going for Fool's Gold over Poor House.  Let's start with cons:
* Poor House is ever so slightly cheaper in a way that is almost never meaningful
* Poor House can be Throned/King's Courted
Now pros:
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Doesn't mind you having other Treasures in hand
* Plays nicely with Stables
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Has a nifty opener with Nomad Camp
* Is great with Treasure gainers, like Mint and Mine
* Doesn't take an Action to play
You missed a con:  You can't put Lost Arts on Fool's Gold.  Lost Arts on Poor House is really good!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2016, 05:36:17 pm »
0

Fool's gold is actually mainly a payload card. In engines where you can draw deck it is 4$ for 2$ 1buy. If you want some examples wanderingwinder has exemplified this in at least on of his videos.
True, but then it doesn't really deserve to be that much better than Poor House.

Let's make a pros and cons list of going for Fool's Gold over Poor House.  Let's start with cons:
* Poor House is ever so slightly cheaper in a way that is almost never meaningful
* Poor House can be Throned/King's Courted
Now pros:
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Doesn't mind you having other Treasures in hand
* Plays nicely with Stables
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Has a nifty opener with Nomad Camp
* Is great with Treasure gainers, like Mint and Mine
* Doesn't take an Action to play
You missed a con:  You can't put Lost Arts on Fool's Gold.  Lost Arts on Poor House is really good!
Engines with fools gold as payload a lost arts on something else are better than engines without that. I don't know why you want poor house in a non engine.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2016, 05:48:56 pm »
0

You missed a con:  You can't put Lost Arts on Fool's Gold.  Lost Arts on Poor House is really good!
Engines with fools gold as payload a lost arts on something else are better than engines without that. I don't know why you want poor house in a non engine.
The joke is that Poor House is much improved by being non-terminal, but Fool's Gold is non-terminal to begin with so it's not much of a con for Fool's Gold.

Lost Arts/Poor House can be good though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2016, 06:07:19 pm »
0

I don't think Chapel will be topped by any of these cards, but I do think Peasant ends up ahead of Page in the long run.

Also, I still don't know how to properly rank Save/Alms/Borrow.  They're all just like things you do when they're on the board, but their "importance" relative to actual cards that go in your deck is weird to evaluate.  (I get that every event is this way, but most of them are core parts of a strategy.  These are all super tactical and get used every time they're out, to some extent.)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2016, 06:18:37 pm »
0

Also, I still don't know how to properly rank Save/Alms/Borrow.  They're all just like things you do when they're on the board, but their "importance" relative to actual cards that go in your deck is weird to evaluate.  (I get that every event is this way, but most of them are core parts of a strategy.  These are all super tactical and get used every time they're out, to some extent.)

Two methods for rating/ranking arbitrary card-shaped thing X, which work for Alms, Borrow, and Save:

Abstract evaluation: On average, how much of a positive impact does X make when it's in the kingdom.
Concrete evaluation: In an average random kingdom including X, how much of an advantage (win% or similar) does a player get if their opponent cannot buy or gain X.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2016, 07:22:11 pm »
0

oh hey i forgot this was the time of year for the thing =(

yall can blame me for peasant finishing behind page. at least this will be the last time that happens~

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2016, 08:54:41 pm »
+1

Here's that big "my list vs this list" post.

First here's my list if you care to read the entire thing. I didn't do a perfect job on it, but this is what it is. Tax is not on my list.
Code: [Select]
1.) Chapel   [X]
2.) Peasant   [X]
3.) Page   [X]
4.) Hamlet   [X]
5.) Coin of the Realm   [X]
6.) Save   [X]
7.) Encampment   [X]
8.) Stonemason   [X]
9.) Fool's Gold   [X]
10.) Borrow   [X]
11.) Travelling Fair   [X]
12.) Raze   [X]
13.) Alms   [X]
14.) Advance   [X]
15.) Courtyard   [X]
16.) Squire   [X]
17.) Ratcatcher   [X]
18.) Pawn   [X]
19.) Scouting Party   [X]
20.) Patrician   [X]
21.) Lighthouse   [X]
22.) Candlestick Maker   [X]
23.) Settlers   [X]
24.) Cellar   [X]
25.) Poor House   [X]
26.) Herbalist   [X]
27.) Delve   [X]
28.) Native Village   [X]
29.) Haven   [X]
30.) Crossroads   [X]
31.) Beggar   [X]
32.) Vagrant   [X]
33.) Embargo   [X]
34.) Moat   [X]
35.) Pearl Diver   [X]
36.) Quest   [X]
37.) Duchess   [X]
38.) Secret Chamber   [X]

The biggest magnitude differences (cutting it off at +/-7 points) :

Travelling Fair - 21 on Qvist, 11 on mine

I overrated +Buy cards across the board, and it's hard to say Travelling Fair is better than a lot of other things on the list. I guess I had a big string of games without +Buy. Anyhow, Travelling Fair is nonterminal +Buy that topdecks. The topdecking is actually quite useful and game-changing in many respects - it enables lots of cool combos / golden decks, yes, but it just speeds things up in general. Similar to Artisan you can topdeck the card you know you'll need next turn, and that can be a huge swing. I think I over-rated it but I think it's a smidge better than 21.

Herbalist - 36 on Qvist, 26 on mine

Speaking of overrating +Buy cards - this is way higher than it should be on my list, it should be in the 30s somewhere, but +Buy is really important! Herbalist did get a few tricks in Empires that should really buff its rank - the Encampment / Herbalist interaction is a legitimate combo, as is its interaction with Capital. But even topdecking Charm or Crown, as long as you can draw through the dead card, isn't a bad move sometimes. But really, the only reason it's not near the bottom of my list is because it has +buy. It is the lowest +buy card on my list, at least...

Crossroads - 19 on Qvist, 30 on mine

Dude, fuck Crossroads. Like, this is definitely swayed by my personal opinion and not pro dominion strategy or whatever, but the draw is so rarely useful. It's basically just 3 Actions. Woo, you have a shitty village that only works once, and sometimes it helps terrible hands suck less. Eh. You guys have it as better than Native Village?

Courtyard - 8 on Qvist, 15 on mine

I think this is highly ranked because lots of people use old lists as a guide, but it's not top 10 material anymore. It's still a very strong BM card, and a passable draw card for engines, but there's too much other good stuff for both those roles these days.

Lighthouse - 14 on Qvist, 21 on mine

I was too harsh on Lighthouse. Next.

Delve - 20 on Qvist, 27 on mine

It's interesting but utlimately uninteresting in most games it's in. Who buys Silver in 2016?

Save, Encampment - 10 and 12 on Qvist, 6 and 7 on mine

Both these cards are just not fully understood by Dominion players yet, I think. Save is something you have to consider buying almost every turn. Encampment is tricky to understand how to play with, when to play and dispose of it, etc. But both are extremely powerful cards you can't ignore at all. Encampment never splits evenly (and the split isn't static through the duration of the game) so it is always going to be a deciding factor in games. The effect / price ratio (for both cards, really) is just unreal.

Borrow - 16 on Qvist, 10 on mine

Did you know, Borrow is really good? It's really really good. It speeds things up too much to discount. It's really good. Giving yourself a -1 Card token to avoid a reshuffle is even good sometimes! But buying shit that's expensive sooner? That's some primo shit right there.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2016, 12:14:59 am »
+6

Delve - 20 on Qvist, 27 on mine

It's interesting but utlimately uninteresting in most games it's in. Who buys Silver in 2016?

You do!  Out of curiosity, I looked at your last ten games on Gokosalvager (12/3-12/6).  You bought Silver in 9/10 games.  And in the tenth, you gained Silver with Jack of All Trades.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2016, 03:43:46 am »
0

Large differences (more than 5 places) between the Qvist ranking (excl. Empires) and my own list:

Travelling Fair (5 on my list, 18 on the Qvist list without Empires): Wow is this thing seriously underrated. I really thought it would get a huge boost this year. What really makes it shine is the combination of adding +Buy whenever you need it AND the option to topdeck stuff. No more $11 Herbalists and no more being sad about 2/5 openings when there's a strong $3 trasher, those are two huge deals. Definitely top 10 material.

Scouting Party (31/21*): I just don't see the appeal. Sorry guys. It's just a last resort buy if you happen to have $2 leftover, and one that can seriously backfire at that.

Crossroads (9/17*): What I like about Crossroads is how it can play different roles. There are boards where it is very useful as the only Village, but then there are also boards where you can use it as a legitimate source of draw. Of course you have to be careful not to overbuy it, but I think its severe drop this year isn't exactly justified.

Ratcatcher (19/12*): I explained this in detail already.

Native Village (26/19*): I admit I may have placed this a little too low. I think it's because the whole setting-things-aside thing can backfire sometimes. But yeah, it's still a Village and sometimes you just need them no matter how weak they are.

Pawn (13/20*): Flexibility is underrated, though place 13 may be pushing it a little.

Borrow (21/15*): I agree with SirSlugma that this one is very difficult to rank, but I guess I can understand why most people like it higher on the list than I do. It can certainly make a big impact in certain situations, depending on your draws. The thing is, if your draws are lucky enough, you'll pretty much never need to buy it.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 03:46:28 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2016, 07:22:14 am »
0

Large differences (more than 5 places) between the Qvist ranking (excl. Empires) and my own list:

Travelling Fair (5 on my list, 18 on the Qvist list without Empires): Wow is this thing seriously underrated. I really thought it would get a huge boost this year. What really makes it shine is the combination of adding +Buy whenever you need it AND the option to topdeck stuff. No more $11 Herbalists and no more being sad about 2/5 openings when there's a strong $3 trasher, those are two huge deals. Definitely top 10 material.

Scouting Party (31/21*): I just don't see the appeal. Sorry guys. It's just a last resort buy if you happen to have $2 leftover, and one that can seriously backfire at that.

Borrow (21/15*): I agree with SirSlugma that this one is very difficult to rank, but I guess I can understand why most people like it higher on the list than I do. It can certainly make a big impact in certain situations, depending on your draws. The thing is, if your draws are lucky enough, you'll pretty much never need to buy it.
About these 3.

In the games I played with travelling fair they it was never bought. We just didn't need the +Buy and was too steep for it. 18 seems perfect for it, if not a tad lower. I just still think it's a run of the mill card, slightly above average.

Scouting Party is really good, perhaps you just had a few unlucky draws with it. I've used it to great sucess opening Peasant and Peasant/Scouting party. is a great price for 2 card cycling.

Borrow, Alms, and Save all rate different depending on how you rate cards. I rated them all very high because in almost all games you purchase them. If instead of looking at how much you got them, what if you looked at how much good they did you? Then it seems substantibly weaker as it's a one-shot. Scouting party can skip 3 now but Wharehouse might sift 12 in it's lifetime. That's why the Events are so variably rated. Since it's a one shot they can seem inherrently worse then most cards, but if you ignore that, then they seem so much better. But should you ignore that?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2016, 09:10:21 am »
+1

Delve - 20 on Qvist, 27 on mine

It's interesting but utlimately uninteresting in most games it's in. Who buys Silver in 2016?

You do!  Out of curiosity, I looked at your last ten games on Gokosalvager (12/3-12/6).  You bought Silver in 9/10 games.  And in the tenth, you gained Silver with Jack of All Trades.

Point taken  :-[

But seriously, I'm not buying more than two Silver on a lot of boards, and rarely do I think a Silver would be a great add-on buy to a $3 card I'm overpaying for or something like that. It makes BM and slogs a fair bit better, I just don't really think the deck it produces is competitive on many engine boards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2016, 10:37:44 am »
+1

Scouting Party (31/21*): I just don't see the appeal. Sorry guys. It's just a last resort buy if you happen to have $2 leftover, and one that can seriously backfire at that.
Scouting party can make money strats viable even after heavy greening.
Early it is good for engines because seeing your important card 1 turn sooner has real value.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2016, 05:39:40 pm »
0

squire is a village, you guys

villages are always underrated in these things, period. never fails

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2016, 05:42:38 pm »
0

squire is a village, you guys

villages are always underrated in these things, period. never fails
Squire is really overated.
Ask mic.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2016, 06:22:26 pm »
+2

I can't believe Stonemason is #4.  No doubt it affects the overall flow of a game a lot, with 3 piling and what not.  And yeah it has cool tricks -- turning Golds into 6vp late, Quarry, getting 2 Scrying Pools per turn, etc. -- but seriously!?  Better than Save, Raze, Alms, Borrow (can you guess what I had at #4 through 7?) !?!?  I mean, anything can do cool tricks given the right Kingdom (Secret Chamber, Transmute, etc.).  I don't get it.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 06:23:35 pm by Dingan »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2016, 03:46:11 am »
0

I can't believe Stonemason is #4.  No doubt it affects the overall flow of a game a lot, with 3 piling and what not.  And yeah it has cool tricks -- turning Golds into 6vp late, Quarry, getting 2 Scrying Pools per turn, etc. -- but seriously!?  Better than Save, Raze, Alms, Borrow (can you guess what I had at #4 through 7?) !?!?  I mean, anything can do cool tricks given the right Kingdom (Secret Chamber, Transmute, etc.).  I don't get it.

4 might be a bit high (I had it on #7), but it's definitely a strong card. Getting a second copy of a power $5 card for only $2 extra and no buy is extremely good, even if it comes with a card that's not that strong in its own right. Basically it's an on-gain gainer that can seriously kickstart an engine at an early stage, even without the cool tricks you mentioned.

Save, Alms and Borrow are hard to rank, but Raze is probably similar in strength to Stonemason. In fact, if both were on the board and the rest of the board is engine friendly, I'd almost always open Stonemason+2xRaze/Silver.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $0-$2 Cards
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2016, 06:52:38 pm »
+4

I was going to share my ratings but lost it and now can't access them...

I think ranking all cards meticulously is silly, (Like I'm not going to stress whether Page or Peasant is better since they're in the same tier anyway) so I just look at broad areas of where I think things should be. I would have shared my tiers, but again, my stuff is wiped...

With that said, my disagreements with the community list are:
- Embargo is too high. It's almost always a bad plan and in fact one that turns around to bite you quite often. One-shot Silver is "pretty good sometimes" but I'd be joking if I said it was great. Similarly, I would consider Tax to be in the lowest tier. It's a little less of a risk than Embargo since you aren't adding a terminal, but not above cards that can win you games at times, e.g. Beggar and Moat.
- Poor House is probably too high but I'm not going to fight this too hard.
- Scouting Party is tricky to rank but I'd boost it at least one tier higher than where it is. Its use depends on the size of decks, how much junk there is, what your end goal with it is, but if you have that it's a very useful event.
- I would place Settlers below Vagrant and Patrician, though directly below them. It barely matters, but decks where you want to trash all your Copper or are reshuffling enough that it never finds Copper are common enough that it duds a lot.
- Travelling Fair can probably go up a tier.
- This isn't disagreeing with the list so much as agreeing with Delve's placement. You guys can gain bunches of Silver if you want; I'd prefer winning games. lol But seriously, I mostly agree with Limetime on this one. Silver being cheaper doesn't actually make it a better card. It just makes it easier to get. That's worth something, but not enough to call it a top event.
- Advance is pretty good, but I'd drop it down a tier.
- I would put CSM and Squire below the Vagrant class. They tend to have hidden opportunity cost, though they can certainly be linchpins in certain decks.
- Borrow should definitely be in the top 10.
- I would drop Ratcatcher down two tiers. I think it's a very overestimated trasher in general.
- Encampment belongs in the top 10 and people should realize this by next year. Ridiculously good card.
- Save is top 5. There are lots of games where I buy it almost every turn.
- Courtyard had its day in the sun, but I think deserves to continue dropping. Just one more tier, really.
- Coin of the Realm belongs in the top 10, but probably a few spots lower. Same for Hamlet. I'm actually surprised Hamlet bounced back up so far.
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