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Author Topic: Games that never end  (Read 8180 times)

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tristan

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Re: Games that never end
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2016, 03:39:13 am »
0

A log would suffice. The likelihood of a perfect mirror in a Kingdom with Bishop and Fortress is as high as that of a perfect mirror in any other Kingdom: quasi zero.
Actually if it is just a close mirror it can lead to stale-mate because if you try to end the game the other person just get a points lead.

As long as you are generating more points than your opponent, you can play for an arbitrarily long time until one of you has a safe enough cushion to attempt to end the game. Only if you both generate identical amounts of points is the game unresolvable.
That's kinda what i meant by close mirror. It is not that unlikely to split one pile. The fortresses can be substituted by any other village.

Um... the Fortresses cannot be replaced in the Bishop/Fortress golden deck.  That deck must have 4 Bishops and 4 (or more) Fortresses to work.
This is wrong. As Bishop is terminal you gotta play a village for each Bishop you play in order to trigger Bishop/Fortress numerous times and this is why you can PARTIALLY substitute Fortress with another Village.
The golden deck doesn't require 4 Fortresses, one Fortress which you constantly trash and get back would suffice.

In practical games players get many Fortresses because no other village might be around, because you wanna take them away from the other playera nd so on.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Games that never end
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2016, 06:40:25 am »
+1

Um... the Fortresses cannot be replaced in the Bishop/Fortress golden deck.  That deck must have 4 Bishops and 4 (or more) Fortresses to work.
This is wrong. As Bishop is terminal you gotta play a village for each Bishop you play in order to trigger Bishop/Fortress numerous times and this is why you can PARTIALLY substitute Fortress with another Village.
The golden deck doesn't require 4 Fortresses, one Fortress which you constantly trash and get back would suffice.
The Golden Deck requires 4 Fortresses because you not only need your Fortress plus three other villages, you need to be able to play those three other villages first. If your three other villages aren't Fortresses and your initial draw is Fortress - Bishop - Bishop - Bishop - Bishop, bye-bye Golden Deck.
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LaLight

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Re: Games that never end
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2016, 06:50:41 am »
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Um... the Fortresses cannot be replaced in the Bishop/Fortress golden deck.  That deck must have 4 Bishops and 4 (or more) Fortresses to work.
This is wrong. As Bishop is terminal you gotta play a village for each Bishop you play in order to trigger Bishop/Fortress numerous times and this is why you can PARTIALLY substitute Fortress with another Village.
The golden deck doesn't require 4 Fortresses, one Fortress which you constantly trash and get back would suffice.
The Golden Deck requires 4 Fortresses because you not only need your Fortress plus three other villages, you need to be able to play those three other villages first. If your three other villages aren't Fortresses and your initial draw is Fortress - Bishop - Bishop - Bishop - Bishop, bye-bye Golden Deck.
Or Lost Arts on Bishop.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Games that never end
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2016, 11:18:13 am »
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It is important for a serious Dominion player to train with a calorie surplus so that he can outlast his opponent in such scenarios. 
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Kirian

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Re: Games that never end
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2016, 04:07:42 pm »
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Why is this obviously fair? Equal turns is only a variant, and the point of Dominion is to end the game while leading, not just to lead the game without ending it. If neither player can end the game with a win, a tie seems fairest to me.
(Compare e.g. to chess: If neither player can win, it's a tie, even if one player has a clear material advantage.)


I agree with this. Dominion has never been about getting the most points, but about being able to end the game while ahead. If you can't end the game (while maintaining your lead), you can't declare a win.

It seems to me like Donald agrees as well:

Quote
I think people in a stalemated game, for whatever game, tend to realize it, and have ways to cope with the situation. Try "looks like a draw," see what it gets you.

Not "try telling your opponent that you think you win because you have more points than him at the moment, see what it gets you."

Yeah, I realized my construction was likely wrong.  On the other hand, if one player always has more points than the other--both are earning 12 points/turn, but the score after B's turn is still 10 points in A's favor--do we still feel this is a draw?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Games that never end
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2016, 04:44:54 pm »
+4


Why is this obviously fair? Equal turns is only a variant, and the point of Dominion is to end the game while leading, not just to lead the game without ending it. If neither player can end the game with a win, a tie seems fairest to me.
(Compare e.g. to chess: If neither player can win, it's a tie, even if one player has a clear material advantage.)


I agree with this. Dominion has never been about getting the most points, but about being able to end the game while ahead. If you can't end the game (while maintaining your lead), you can't declare a win.

It seems to me like Donald agrees as well:

Quote
I think people in a stalemated game, for whatever game, tend to realize it, and have ways to cope with the situation. Try "looks like a draw," see what it gets you.

Not "try telling your opponent that you think you win because you have more points than him at the moment, see what it gets you."

Yeah, I realized my construction was likely wrong.  On the other hand, if one player always has more points than the other--both are earning 12 points/turn, but the score after B's turn is still 10 points in A's favor--do we still feel this is a draw?

I do. I still think Chess is a good analogy. If you have a King and a Bishop, and your opponent has only a King, then you cannot claim victory, despite the fact that you will always have more pieces than your opponent. You have failed to meet the actual objective of the game. In Dominion, there is no victory unless a game-end condition is met.

Being able to end the game, at least to me (and I know I'm not alone), is a part of the skill of Dominion, as important as being able to gain victory points every turn.
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Holger

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Re: Games that never end
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2016, 09:21:06 am »
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Why is this obviously fair? Equal turns is only a variant, and the point of Dominion is to end the game while leading, not just to lead the game without ending it. If neither player can end the game with a win, a tie seems fairest to me.
(Compare e.g. to chess: If neither player can win, it's a tie, even if one player has a clear material advantage.)


I agree with this. Dominion has never been about getting the most points, but about being able to end the game while ahead. If you can't end the game (while maintaining your lead), you can't declare a win.

It seems to me like Donald agrees as well:

Quote
I think people in a stalemated game, for whatever game, tend to realize it, and have ways to cope with the situation. Try "looks like a draw," see what it gets you.

Not "try telling your opponent that you think you win because you have more points than him at the moment, see what it gets you."

Yeah, I realized my construction was likely wrong.  On the other hand, if one player always has more points than the other--both are earning 12 points/turn, but the score after B's turn is still 10 points in A's favor--do we still feel this is a draw?

I do. I still think Chess is a good analogy. If you have a King and a Bishop, and your opponent has only a King, then you cannot claim victory, despite the fact that you will always have more pieces than your opponent. You have failed to meet the actual objective of the game. In Dominion, there is no victory unless a game-end condition is met.

I tend to agree. Note that if one player is constantly leading, they can force a win if there's some cheap cantrips to pile out. And even if there isn't, any player having at least ~51 points more than their opponent after their turn can always force a win by three-piling Fortresses, Bishops and Estates. (Usually you need less of a lead, e.g. 31 points if the Bishops are already gone.)
The knowledge and tactics involved to determine whether/how you can break your golden deck for a win seems something worthwhile to keep IMO.
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