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DG

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The Peasant-Teacher Line
« on: December 03, 2016, 09:05:01 am »
+20

From Peasant to Teacher, a traveler's guide

The traveler cards are some of the highest skill cards in Dominion and certainly some of the most explosive too. They radically change a kingdom and open up many imaginative possibilities. This article looks in detail at the peasant line.

So what's the point of these travelers anyway? The big plan is to call the teacher, put tokens onto action piles, and use these improved action cards to win the game.

When don't they work? The peasant line will generally fail with decks full of treasure and junk where it takes a long time to play the teacher and any tokens will have little impact.

What can go wrong? The game can be lost by the time a teacher is called from the mat, the tokens can't be used well enough to change the game, or the actions tokens are great but there are not enough of these actions in the deck. This shows that a deck without good focus will be unable to use travelers well. So lets look first at the heart of it all, the teacher.

Teacher Teacher is a lot more cumbersome than its cousin, the champion. It needs a terminal action to play, it still doesn't do anything until called the following turn, and it needs to be played and called again to put down another token. This suggests the teacher needs to be played as early as possible in the game so it can have plenty of effect. Since it might not be called many times each token needs to be placed carefully. The first token placed is often used to boost drawing with either with the +1 card token or by improving a drawing card with the +1 action token. This is good for most action engines but it also draws the traveler cards and teacher more frequently. All tokens can be excellent however depending upon the deck and the kingdom. After one or two tokens are placed the teacher might become redundant and it is then fine to leave it on the mat or trash it for any benefit.

To get the most out of tokens, look ahead and decide which piles need tokens then prepare the deck with cards from those piles. This focus is often better than variety, especially if opponents are competing to collect the majority of these cards too. Looking ahead can also prevent running afoul of teacher's golden rule teacher can't put a second token on a pile. Plans and ferries can get in the way. Use training and lost arts after calling the teacher to get a second token on a key pile.

Disciple Disciples are not just a stepping stone towards the teacher. They are also the perfect way to both maximize the benefit from placed tokens and collect more cards from piles with tokens. Disciples can also help compete against opponents to claim a majority of cards in a pile. A well focused deck with good drawing will allow the disciple to be played on the best actions. Cards gained with disciples have the potential be drawn and played the same turn, helping a slow starting peasant-teacher strategy to accelerate very quickly.

Fugitive Fugitives are generally just a stepping stone towards the disciples and offer little unique capability. With fugitives, and all other travelers, it is important to time the shuffling of the deck carefully so that the travelers spend as little time as possible in the discard pile (and draw deck).
Example With fugitive and laboratory in hand and 3 cards in the draw deck you should generally play the fugitive and not play the laboratory. The fugitive can then be exchanged for a disciple and immediately shuffled into the next draw deck.

Soldier At the start of the game soldiers are a rather transitory card. The income is moderate, the attack is mediocre, and they consume a valuable action when played. In the end game however they can change into an amazing income card. Once teacher tokens are on an attack pile it is sometimes possible to fill the deck with those attacks (helped by disciples), draw big hands using the token abilities, and then play soldiers for big income.

Peasant At first it seems as if peasants are only a problem. They certainly seem to offer little at the start of the game when they hold up deck development just to get this traveler line started. Their redeeming feature is the +buy and this can be absolutely vital to engine decks that might want to buy in more travelers (peasants), cards from token piles, and green cards in the endgame. It can be easy to overlook their long term value. Tokens can be placed on the peasant pile and they will affect peasants only and not the travelers.

Building the deck
In most cases, buy a peasant in the first two turns and exchange it through to become the only teacher as soon as possible. This is usually aided by actions that will trash, draw, or cycle through the deck (the teacher might arrive late if there are no such actions in the kingdom). Disciples are a perfect card to use with token piles so often a second peasant can be bought early to become a permanent disciple. Further disciples, soldiers, and peasants should be put into the deck for a specific purpose as they will often arrive too late to be a general asset. Don't keep buying peasants just because they are cheap.

While doing all that the deck needs to be functional, probably a functional engine. It is still important to use strong attacks, defenses, trashing, and so on. Victory points can usually wait until after the teacher has been called. The deck will also need cards from the key piles (the piles which will get tokens). The deck will get immediate benefit if it has a number of these cards when the teacher is called. Ideally the first disciple can gain a key card before it is exchanged to be the teacher. There are exceptions to this, typically when the deck is enabled by placing a +1 action token and without that token the deck will be a mess of terminals. It is always worth remembering that the teacher needs an action to play as well.

If the key cards cost 5 or more then the first peasant will probably not provide enough income to buy one. The first soldier has a better chance but it will only be played once before it gets exchanged so special attention needs to be paid to income from individual hands, not just overall income.

Consolidation
There may not be many turns between the teacher being called and the end of game. This means the deck needs to be brought under control rapidly, usually by drawing the deck and then getting maximum advantage from every action. More key cards can be added to the deck quickly for extra growth using disciples. After deck control comes kingdom control. Play strong attacks repeatedly. Collect a majority of the key cards. Prepare for the endgame with powerful point scoring and secure control of any 3 pile ending. Easy!

Opposition
Opponents will be competing for important cards such as the traveler upgrades and the key action piles. This can  severely restrict some strategies in multiplayer games and games where traveler upgrades can be trashed out (there are only 5 of each upgrade).  Competition for action cards can bring about early 3 pile endings. Attacks on decks can be more severe in multiplayer and this can add a lot more risk to a traveler strategy, particularly when travelers can get trashed.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 08:08:32 pm by DG »
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DG

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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2016, 09:06:17 am »
0

I've had this article written for months and been short of an example game. If anyone has a good example game then I'd be more than happy to give it a link now.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2016, 09:23:24 am »
0

I 'feel' that my strongest card is the Page-Teacher line. I rarely loose a game when they are in the kingdom.

Playing multiple pages (+buy), solider (attack + money), futigive (if need be for draw), disciple (gainer) is so good. And reall, all you need is one card that gives +actions (transform that into a village) and one card that draws (transform it into a non-terminal draw). If you have a card for +$1, that's just extra. +buy on page is hilarious.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2016, 09:43:06 am »
+3

This is a good start, but I feel like there are some remaining topics to be addressed:

Cycling: How much should I prioritize cycling (to get to Teacher faster) over gaining the key card?

2-card decks: How do I prioritze gaining cards when I want tokens on two different piles?

When should I ignore this?

Also, it should be noted that you don't want to use Disciple on Durations.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2016, 10:06:34 am »
+1

This is a good start, but I feel like there are some remaining topics to be addressed:

Cycling: How much should I prioritize cycling (to get to Teacher faster) over gaining the key card?

2-card decks: How do I prioritze gaining cards when I want tokens on two different piles?

When should I ignore this?

Also, it should be noted that you don't want to use Disciple on Durations.

I mean, disciple-Wharf is still something to be considered.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2016, 10:45:45 am »
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I also would like to hear what gamesou has to say about this line, he's the only person who I've seen to frequently skip Teacher altogether and just keeps several disciples. So far that looked really successful even on boards where the token looks pretty good.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2016, 11:31:31 am »
0

I 'feel' that my strongest card is the Page-Teacher line. I rarely loose a game when they are in the kingdom.

Playing multiple pages (+buy), solider (attack + money), futigive (if need be for draw), disciple (gainer) is so good. And reall, all you need is one card that gives +actions (transform that into a village) and one card that draws (transform it into a non-terminal draw). If you have a card for +$1, that's just extra. +buy on page is hilarious.

I think about 1/3rd of my games I use +Buy as the first token off Teacher. Sustaining a bunch of Peasnts just for the extra buys is such a nusiance vs putting them on your village or cantrip.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2016, 03:12:53 pm »
0

I 'feel' that my strongest card is the Page-Teacher line. I rarely loose a game when they are in the kingdom.

Playing multiple pages (+buy), solider (attack + money), futigive (if need be for draw), disciple (gainer) is so good. And reall, all you need is one card that gives +actions (transform that into a village) and one card that draws (transform it into a non-terminal draw). If you have a card for +$1, that's just extra. +buy on page is hilarious.

I think about 1/3rd of my games I use +Buy as the first token off Teacher. Sustaining a bunch of Peasnts just for the extra buys is such a nusiance vs putting them on your village or cantrip.

I mean, that's even great too, but village (with a +card) or terminal draw (+action) is way better, especially with soldier and disciple support. Attacking your opponent consistently is great.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2016, 10:47:21 pm »
0

I 'feel' that my strongest card is the Page-Teacher line. I rarely loose a game when they are in the kingdom.

Playing multiple pages (+buy), solider (attack + money), futigive (if need be for draw), disciple (gainer) is so good. And reall, all you need is one card that gives +actions (transform that into a village) and one card that draws (transform it into a non-terminal draw). If you have a card for +$1, that's just extra. +buy on page is hilarious.

I think about 1/3rd of my games I use +Buy as the first token off Teacher. Sustaining a bunch of Peasnts just for the extra buys is such a nusiance vs putting them on your village or cantrip.

I mean, that's even great too, but village (with a +card) or terminal draw (+action) is way better, especially with soldier and disciple support. Attacking your opponent consistently is great.

The reason I pick up +Buy a lot is that you want to already be building a draw / action engine when you're upgrading those Travellers anyway. On some boards, you're already pretty close to done with that aspect of the engine (or if you aren't, one turn of multiple component buys will do it). Meanwhile, +Buy is an aspect of an engine that is often scarce and usually is incorporated later on in the process, which is around when Teacher becomes a thing.
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DG

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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2016, 09:09:48 am »
0

This is a good start, but I feel like there are some remaining topics to be addressed:

Cycling: How much should I prioritize cycling (to get to Teacher faster) over gaining the key card?

2-card decks: How do I prioritze gaining cards when I want tokens on two different piles?

When should I ignore this?

Also, it should be noted that you don't want to use Disciple on Durations.

It is difficult to balance trashing, cycling, and purchasing when making a peasant-teacher deck. Too complex for this article I am afraid. Any rules would only be there to be broken.

The disciple is not discarded during clean-up when played with a duration card. This means it will not be able to gain another card next turn and it can only be exchanged for teacher once it is discarded from play. I could put this into the article. It was going to be in an example game that I decided not to use!

I also would like to hear what gamesou has to say about this line, he's the only person who I've seen to frequently skip Teacher altogether and just keeps several disciples. So far that looked really successful even on boards where the token looks pretty good.

To be honest, I initially thought this would be a fair strategy but I never personally found a time when it was applicable. I suspect that it delivers aggressive end game control in tight games with functional engines where the teacher is too slow, i.e. something mainly needed by top level players who are not the target audience for this article.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2016, 10:08:28 am »
0

I think that says more about Disciple than teacher. Keeping Disciples around and going for Teacher aren't even a little mutually exclusive; I think you basically always want at least 1 Teacher and 1 Disciple.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2016, 12:24:09 pm »
+17

I also would like to hear what gamesou has to say about this line, he's the only person who I've seen to frequently skip Teacher altogether and just keeps several disciples. So far that looked really successful even on boards where the token looks pretty good.

I never thought hard about this and am a bit surprised to be singled out in doing that.

Some ideas :
- It's sad to sacrifice one of best cards of the game for a delayed Lost Arts, so if I can avoid this, I'm happy.
- Massive Disciples can lead to 3-piles before the Teacher player started to kick off.
- There are also boards when you want to exchange for Teacher at some point, but only once some key pile is empty.

As an example of game I can remember that one. I don't claim I played particularly well though
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160809/log.0.1470774535741.txt

Many people auto-exchange travellers to rush for Champion/Teacher, this is often fine, but sometimes it is even better to skip Teacher if all the engine components are available withoug the tokens.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2016, 03:33:30 pm »
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Also, it should be noted that you don't want to use Disciple on Durations.
Hireling disagrees.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2016, 03:39:32 pm »
+8

you give up your disciple for another hireling?
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tristan

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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2016, 03:51:37 pm »
+2

you give up your disciple for another hireling?
For a throned Hireling and another Hireling? Of course.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2016, 06:37:58 pm »
+8

If you actually think that is even remotely as good as Discipling, let's say, a Lab I wouldn't know how to convince you. But I don't think you will find anyone else here who thinks this is anything but bad.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2016, 07:25:10 pm »
+5

I like how the title says pea-ant.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2016, 12:33:46 am »
+2

I also would like to hear what gamesou has to say about this line, he's the only person who I've seen to frequently skip Teacher altogether and just keeps several disciples. So far that looked really successful even on boards where the token looks pretty good.

I never thought hard about this and am a bit surprised to be singled out in doing that.

Some ideas :
- It's sad to sacrifice one of best cards of the game for a delayed Lost Arts, so if I can avoid this, I'm happy.
- Massive Disciples can lead to 3-piles before the Teacher player started to kick off.
- There are also boards when you want to exchange for Teacher at some point, but only once some key pile is empty.

As an example of game I can remember that one. I don't claim I played particularly well though
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160809/log.0.1470774535741.txt

Many people auto-exchange travellers to rush for Champion/Teacher, this is often fine, but sometimes it is even better to skip Teacher if all the engine components are available withoug the tokens.

I was "singling you out" (that sounds so negative, which I surely didn't mean to), because I distinctly remember two streamed games, one against SCSN which you linked I believe and one in this season against someone I forgot (it's gotta be Derg or Assemble ;) ) where you kept your disciple on boards where it isn't "usual". I've seen others skip Teacher aswell, but only for the timing reason. So I actually think you're kinda unique, atleast among the the top players from f.ds. So thanks for your input, let us know about your ideas after thinking hard about this ;)

This is also a question where it would be really cool what the Japanese community thinks about this, as they seem to be as good as us with minimal exchange about strategy.

@Chris is me, Your point is not really valid: Your 1 Disiciple + 1 Teacher could be two Disciples instead. Or three (4?) in the aforementioned gamesou game. Of course one of each is the easy way out, but that doesn't make it the right one.
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tristan

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2016, 06:27:35 am »
0

If you actually think that is even remotely as good as Discipling, let's say, a Lab I wouldn't know how to convince you. But I don't think you will find anyone else here who thinks this is anything but bad.
If you Disciple a Hireling you get two extra cards in all future turns and another Hireling at the cost of Disciple being permanently out of play. This is a powerful effect at a high cost and it worked great in the one game in which I played thus.

Now I am not claiming that this is always good. Hireling is only good if you get it early and you if that "lost Disciple" is the only one you got it could be very dubious as you might want another Disciple around or finally get to Teacher.
Disciple is not per se better or worse than Hireling, their relative strength depends on several factors. If you have several cards in the Peasant line in your deck and hit that Hireling early with Disciple the relative strength of both cards is tilted towards Hireling so giving up a Disciple for a throned Hireling and anoteher Hireling is good.

In short, your unconditional claim that discipling the most powerful Duration in the game is always bad is preposterous.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2016, 07:08:10 am »
0

If you actually think that is even remotely as good as Discipling, let's say, a Lab I wouldn't know how to convince you. But I don't think you will find anyone else here who thinks this is anything but bad.
If you Disciple a Hireling you get two extra cards in all future turns and another Hireling at the cost of Disciple being permanently out of play. This is a powerful effect at a high cost and it worked great in the one game in which I played thus.

Now I am not claiming that this is always good. Hireling is only good if you get it early and you if that "lost Disciple" is the only one you got it could be very dubious as you might want another Disciple around or finally get to Teacher.
Disciple is not per se better or worse than Hireling, their relative strength depends on several factors. If you have several cards in the Peasant line in your deck and hit that Hireling early with Disciple the relative strength of both cards is tilted towards Hireling so giving up a Disciple for a throned Hireling and anoteher Hireling is good.

In short, your unconditional claim that discipling the most powerful Duration in the game is always bad is preposterous.
I mean, I'm sure we'd all concede that in certain edge cases it would be the best option but I agree that roughly 95% of the time this is a bad idea. Disciple essentially becomes a hireling, and disciple is already way better than hireling.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2016, 08:32:05 am »
+5

Discipling Hireling is far more skippable than Tristan thinks
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2016, 04:26:42 pm »
+1

I mean, I'm sure we'd all concede that in certain edge cases it would be the best option but I agree that roughly 95% of the time this is a bad idea. Disciple essentially becomes a hireling, and disciple is already way better than hireling.
Nope. Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.
The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2016, 04:45:23 pm »
+3

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2016, 04:45:41 pm »
+1

I mean, I'm sure we'd all concede that in certain edge cases it would be the best option but I agree that roughly 95% of the time this is a bad idea. Disciple essentially becomes a hireling, and disciple is already way better than hireling.
Nope. Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.
The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.
It's worse then KC'ing a hireling. Disciple would be a or , it's easily on the same power level as prince. Plus it takes a long time to get to.
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Re: The Peaant-Teacher Line
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2016, 04:55:45 pm »
0

I also would like to hear what gamesou has to say about this line, he's the only person who I've seen to frequently skip Teacher altogether and just keeps several disciples. So far that looked really successful even on boards where the token looks pretty good.

I never thought hard about this and am a bit surprised to be singled out in doing that.

Some ideas :
- It's sad to sacrifice one of best cards of the game for a delayed Lost Arts, so if I can avoid this, I'm happy.
- Massive Disciples can lead to 3-piles before the Teacher player started to kick off.
- There are also boards when you want to exchange for Teacher at some point, but only once some key pile is empty.

As an example of game I can remember that one. I don't claim I played particularly well though
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160809/log.0.1470774535741.txt

Many people auto-exchange travellers to rush for Champion/Teacher, this is often fine, but sometimes it is even better to skip Teacher if all the engine components are available withoug the tokens.

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2016, 05:34:26 pm »
0

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?


I mean, I'm sure we'd all concede that in certain edge cases it would be the best option but I agree that roughly 95% of the time this is a bad idea. Disciple essentially becomes a hireling, and disciple is already way better than hireling.
Nope. Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.
The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.
It's worse then KC'ing a hireling. Disciple would be a or , it's easily on the same power level as prince. Plus it takes a long time to get to.
Huh? Judging the power level of Disciple has nothing to do with how hard it is to get. That's would be the cost side of the equation.
You also might wanna make up your mind whether Disciple is better or worse than KC. Because in that line you say first that it is worse and then that it is better than KC.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2016, 05:36:26 pm »
+8

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?

Everything you say concerning the strengths of Dominion cards, you're just completely wrong. That would be okay if you were not so completely adamant about how right you were.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2016, 05:46:03 pm »
0

I mean, I'm sure we'd all concede that in certain edge cases it would be the best option but I agree that roughly 95% of the time this is a bad idea. Disciple essentially becomes a hireling, and disciple is already way better than hireling.
Nope. Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.
The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.
It's worse then KC'ing a hireling. Disciple would be a or , it's easily on the same power level as prince. Plus it takes a long time to get to.
Huh? Judging the power level of Disciple has nothing to do with how hard it is to get. That's would be the cost side of the equation.
You also might wanna make up your mind whether Disciple is better or worse than KC. Because in that line you say first that it is worse and then that it is better than KC.
[/quote]
I was disagreeing with the fact that you said Disciple is about the same strength as hireling (it's not).

Disciple is way better than KC, it's only obviously worse to play with hireling then KC. The 2 statements do not contradict each other.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2016, 05:47:49 pm »
0

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?

Everything you say concerning the strengths of Dominion cards, you're just completely wrong. That would be okay if you were not so completely adamant about how right you were.
Perhaps. But unlike you I make non ad hominem arguments which one can actually debate.
So cut the crap and either contribute constructively or get the heck out of here and deal with whatever you problems you have with me where it started, in RSP.
You make a ton to.

Techincally that wasn't actually an Ad Hominen.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2016, 05:49:58 pm »
0

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?

Everything you say concerning the strengths of Dominion cards, you're just completely wrong. That would be okay if you were not so completely adamant about how right you were.
Unlikely. Nobody is wrong about everything, not even a reactionary guy like you.  8)

Disciple is way better than KC, it's only obviously worse to play with hireling then KC. The 2 statements do not contradict each other.
Nope. As usual such unconditional claims are wrong. Disciple can be better than KC but if the Grand Market pile is empty I'd rather have a KC than a Disciple.
Kinda funny that one side in this debate is making these ridiculous absolutist claims and totally ignores the main point of Dominion, the main reason the game is interesting: that the relative strength of cards always depends on the Kingdom.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2016, 05:50:19 pm »
0

Tristan what's your goko username?
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2016, 05:52:37 pm »
0

The notion that Disciple is better than Hireling is also dubious. If it were a non-Traveller Action card it would most likely be a strong 6$. Like Hireling.

Are you always just wrong about everything?
You got something of substance to say about the actual issue or are you just mad because of something that happened in RSP?

Everything you say concerning the strengths of Dominion cards, you're just completely wrong. That would be okay if you were not so completely adamant about how right you were.
Unlikely. Nobody is wrong about everything, not even a reactionary guy like you.  8)

Disciple is way better than KC, it's only obviously worse to play with hireling then KC. The 2 statements do not contradict each other.
Nope. As usual such unconditional claims are wrong. Disciple can be better than KC but if the Grand Market pile is empty I'd rather have a KC than a Disciple.
Kinda funny that one side in this debate is making these ridiculous absolutist claims and totally ignores the main point of Dominion, the main reason the game is interesting: that the relative strength of cards always depends on the Kingdom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
I assumed it would be okay to use it since you do a lot.

When I say "way better" of course I don't mean "always better". That's stupid.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2016, 05:58:19 pm »
0

Nothing like constantly changing what you actually mean and blaming me for it. :D
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2016, 06:00:36 pm »
+1

Tristan your the one who is twisting people's words.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2016, 06:04:04 pm »
0

Chill. Also, don't delete posts - you should think enough beforehand to be able to own what you say, even if you regret it afterwards.

You will never Disciple a Hireling in a real properly played game. There are really three cases:

Non-teacher-dependent engine: Disciple is a better card than Hireling because increasing number of components and having extra pile control is more important than increasing handsize at the start of the turn, not to mention that you get the benefit of Throning a powerful card (of your choosing rather than one that may not be necessary) each turn.

Teacher-dependent engine: You need that Teacher as soon as possible. Discipling Hireling early prevents you from getting it, and once your engine is going the argument for non-teacher dependent applies

Ultra-weak board where there is no engine even with Teacher: you shouldn't have a Disciple.

Much better arguments in favor of playing durations with Disciple are Wharf and Caravan.

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2016, 06:13:24 pm »
+25

I don't really know how to say this, but... how about we all try to keep it friendly?
Sometimes people have opinions about cards that are... not yours. They might even be flat out wrong.
Hurray! Ignorance is bliss! Go beat them in a game of Dominion!

Somehow this was about Dominion cards and turned into something personal rather quickly.
Any way we can get out of that again?
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2016, 06:19:55 pm »
0

Chill. Also, don't delete posts - you should think enough beforehand to be able to own what you say, even if you regret it afterwards.

You will never Disciple a Hireling in a real properly played game. There are really three cases:

Non-teacher-dependent engine: Disciple is a better card than Hireling because increasing number of components and having extra pile control is more important than increasing handsize at the start of the turn, not to mention that you get the benefit of Throning a powerful card (of your choosing rather than one that may not be necessary) each turn.
Gotta disagree, the game was real and we played properly.

There is a gross error: Hireling increase the handsize each turn where Disciple thrones and gains a powerful card each PER SHUFFLE.

I only faintly recall the game but the Traveller line was used intensively, i.e. there was at least another Disciple or Fugitive in my deck so the opportunity cost of giving a Disciple up wasn't as high as in other games. A perma-handsize increase from 5 to 7 definitely matters without trashing and was more valuable than getting more Action cards.
Again, whether extra Action cards or an increased handsize are better cannot be determined unconditionally but d epends on the Kingdom.
Of course in a thin deck you want more cards in your deck and not draw more cards; in a thin deck Hireling is weak so Disciple+Hireling is weak as well.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 06:21:37 pm by tristan »
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2016, 06:21:04 pm »
0

There is a pretty grass error in there: Hireling increase the handsize each turn where Disciple thrones and gains a powerful card each PER SHUFFLE.
Not sure if your aware but disciple stays out with the hireling so unless if you are doing trash from play and gain from trash shenanigans you won't get a new hireling per shuffle.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2016, 06:27:49 pm »
0

There is a pretty grass error in there: Hireling increase the handsize each turn where Disciple thrones and gains a powerful card each PER SHUFFLE.
Not sure if your aware but disciple stays out with the hireling so unless if you are doing trash from play and gain from trash shenanigans you won't get a new hireling per shuffle.

Disciple thrones a Hireling and becomes another Hireling.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2016, 06:45:20 pm »
+3

Quote
I would quote something but since posts disappear seemingly at random it seems kind of pointless

I was perfectly aware what I was typing. Shuffle and turn should be roughly equivalent, whether the deck is thin or thick.

In any case, not Discipling a Hireling does not prevent you from playing the Hireling like doing so prevents you from playing a Disciple in the future.
If the difference between starting with 6 cards and starting with 7 and later 8 is really that great, it seems it would be better to invest in obtaining more actions for greater consistency drawing the entire deck rather than an immediate bit of draw for the initial hand. This is because if you need to start with 8 cards in hand to be sufficiently sure that you can play, say, village and draw, it seems unlikely that playing those cards would also be sure to lead to another set of village and draw, whereas increasing the number of village and draw cards, say with a Disciple, would help both the initial and continuing hands be sure to contain them.

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2016, 06:52:07 pm »
0

I was perfectly aware what I was typing. Shuffle and turn should be roughly equivalent, whether the deck is thin or thick.
Stopped reading there. Read the Dominion rules. Turn and shuffle are anything but equivalent and in a large deck you only shuffle after several turns.  ::)
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2016, 10:40:08 pm »
0

Stopped reading there. Read the Dominion rules.

It's a shame, the best part of the post was after that. I mean, you already knew that, but whatever.

Turn and shuffle are anything but equivalent and in a large deck you only shuffle after several turns.

I believe I already addressed this situation in the third case above, but it should not be often if Peasant is present.

In any case, I am done here until I get real experience that playing Hireling with a Disciple is a good idea, and once I get that, I am perfectly willing to accept that I am wrong, but until then, I am in the majority and so have good reason to believe that I am correct. So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you. Since according to you this is much of the time, the task should not be difficult since I am only asking for one instance.

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2016, 03:45:36 am »
0

So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2016, 07:27:34 am »
0

Stopped reading there. Read the Dominion rules.

It's a shame, the best part of the post was after that. I mean, you already knew that, but whatever.

Turn and shuffle are anything but equivalent and in a large deck you only shuffle after several turns.

I believe I already addressed this situation in the third case above, but it should not be often if Peasant is present.

In any case, I am done here until I get real experience that playing Hireling with a Disciple is a good idea, and once I get that, I am perfectly willing to accept that I am wrong, but until then, I am in the majority and so have good reason to believe that I am correct. So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you. Since according to you this is much of the time, the task should not be difficult since I am only asking for one instance.
Peasant, Hireling, Scout, Scout, Scout, Scout, Scout, Scout, Scout, Scout.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2016, 07:45:17 am »
0

So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.

Have you ever played an engine that draws your whole deck before? If not that might explain a lot...

Is there a certain card associated with the Peasant line that is specifically very good at enabling that kind of deck to exist? Maybe there are even two of those cards in the line. Maybe you only get to those two cards when you're more or less at the point in the game of drawing your entire deck every turn.

If you put aside the snark for like ten seconds and think about it, you can see what he's saying.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2016, 09:14:08 am »
0

So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.

Have you ever played an engine that draws your whole deck before? If not that might explain a lot...

Is there a certain card associated with the Peasant line that is specifically very good at enabling that kind of deck to exist? Maybe there are even two of those cards in the line. Maybe you only get to those two cards when you're more or less at the point in the game of drawing your entire deck every turn.

If you put aside the snark for like ten seconds and think about it, you can see what he's saying.
Of course you sometimes draw your entire deck but the rule ignoramus made an unconditional claim about Disciple working every turn which is plain nonsense. The mere presence of Peasant does in no way guarantee that you always draw your entire deck. It does, as always, depend on the Kingdom.
Of course he explicitly made that rule-ignoring claim in order to pretend that Disciple works every turn like Hireling whereas it does in fact only work once per shuffle.

This is the underlying reason behind this ridiculous debate: unconditional, utterly preposterous claims. Like that you always draw your entire deck or that you always prefer a higher Action card density over higher draw power. If Dominion were that simple we would not play it.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 09:16:03 am by tristan »
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2016, 09:29:19 am »
0

Actually Disciple-Disciple-Hireling might have something to it, if I understand the interaction right.
So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.

Have you ever played an engine that draws your whole deck before? If not that might explain a lot...

Is there a certain card associated with the Peasant line that is specifically very good at enabling that kind of deck to exist? Maybe there are even two of those cards in the line. Maybe you only get to those two cards when you're more or less at the point in the game of drawing your entire deck every turn.

If you put aside the snark for like ten seconds and think about it, you can see what he's saying.
This is the underlying reason behind this ridiculous debate: unconditional, utterly preposterous claims. Like that you always draw your entire deck or that you always prefer a higher Action card density over higher draw power. If Dominion were that simple we would not play it.
You don't always draw your deck, for sure. However in games with Peasant you almost always can draw your deck, so he has a point. Also, higher action density often equates to higher draw power.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2016, 09:50:38 am »
+3

For the sake of discussion it's best to assume every absolute here really means "most of the time". Otherwise, every thread will just degenerate into "but what about this edge case"?

I think the nature of the disagreement is, Discipling Hireling is pretty edgecase-y. Hireling is a card you want to play early; Disciple is a card you don't get early and you get the most value out of by playing often. They aren't really an ideal pair. Sure, greater than zero boards exist where you would Disciple Hireling. Greater than zero boards have no other way to draw deck with Disciple. It's just not most of them.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2016, 10:24:24 am »
0

I can imagine discipling a hireling when I have done all the gaining I want and maybe when drawing is a bigger issue than having sufficient actions?
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2016, 10:33:35 am »
+2

This article needs more details.

Very important skill in peasant games is balancing terminal ratio. You need deck tracking to see when you should add another peasant as soldier becomes fugitive in that shuffle decreasing terminal collision chance.

Also entire chain requires bit more detail as teacher line tends to be faster than page one unless you need to play terminals early. fugitive cycles and disciple probably cycles too if you duplicate draw/sifter. But thunter and hero junk you with treasures slowing you down. As new players underestimate disciples these should be mentioned too, with analogs like that disciple quickly becomes better than kings court as you play card twice by disciple, then third time when you draw a copy which is normal practice in engines.

Second topic is that with junking and no/weak trashing peasant tends to be better than champion. Calling teacher becomes less important factor as with long shuffles it would likely happen in single one. Both enable terminal draw engine in similar way as +action to draw is only needed. But you could improve engine by placing +card to cantrip/village with teacher but no champion.

After lot of junky games I found that page TD engines lose to junker-bm quite often. With only one buy you need to get lot of draw cards that you don't want to play not to skip hero and tempo loss from that will lose you game. So adding nonterminals is better to keep tempo.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2016, 11:33:53 am »
+5

So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.

Have you ever played an engine that draws your whole deck before? If not that might explain a lot...

Is there a certain card associated with the Peasant line that is specifically very good at enabling that kind of deck to exist? Maybe there are even two of those cards in the line. Maybe you only get to those two cards when you're more or less at the point in the game of drawing your entire deck every turn.

If you put aside the snark for like ten seconds and think about it, you can see what he's saying.
Of course you sometimes draw your entire deck but the rule ignoramus made an unconditional claim about Disciple working every turn which is plain nonsense. The mere presence of Peasant does in no way guarantee that you always draw your entire deck. It does, as always, depend on the Kingdom.
Of course he explicitly made that rule-ignoring claim in order to pretend that Disciple works every turn like Hireling whereas it does in fact only work once per shuffle.

This is the underlying reason behind this ridiculous debate: unconditional, utterly preposterous claims. Like that you always draw your entire deck or that you always prefer a higher Action card density over higher draw power. If Dominion were that simple we would not play it.

They made an "unconditional claim" that they later corrected by saying

Quote
I was perfectly aware what I was typing. Shuffle and turn should be roughly equivalent, whether the deck is thin or thick.

This is also the way i read the original "unconditional claim" because really it is not unconditional but in the context that we are playing a peasent game and in those games you tend to get to draw your deck at some point in time. That point might not be reached yet at the time you have disciple and your hireling in Hand, so you might not be able to play your disciple every turn right afterwards if you decide to keep it instead of using it on your hireling. But on most boards with peasent the point of drawing your deck should be reached at some and then maybe you got to that point a little faster by discipling your hireling but now you cant explode as much as you could if you had kept your disciple around to throne and at the same time gain another one of your payload cards.
So this looks at the relative benefits of keeping vs giving up your disciple even without thinking about maybe you want to get teacher really fast, which you often want, and already we have an Argumentation that says "on most boards you would want to keep your disciple".
Im not saying theres no edge cases where it wouldnt be good to disciple your hireling, I (and most of the posts here) just claim those are edge cases. That's why traces proposed you specifically design such an edge case since if its not an edge case, that task shouldnt be too hard.

Anyway, I feel like im replicating most of what has been said already. I guess the point i wanted to make is, if you want to have a serious and constructive discussion from which you can gain insight from, you should give people some credit and not assume every inaccurately formulated thing in a Post is to be interpreted in the worst way possible, like saying "lol turn and shuffle aren't equivalent go read the rulebook noob". Of course that goes to everyone, so i dont put that all on you since the reply to your original post was something like "aren't you the guy that gets everything wrong all the time?" which is in no way better and also doesnt set a good base for a constructive discussion about your original claim.

By the way, on last thing that just got to my mind is your original reply to doctorsteelhammer was also like one of those "ridiculous unconditional Statements"

you give up your disciple for another hireling?
For a throned Hireling and another Hireling? Of course.

If i wanted i could read that as "i will always use disciple on hireling given the Chance, no matter the circumstances" and I think we all agree it would be wrong to do that on every board in every Situation. But at the time i read that, I read it as a statement about an edge case even thought you didnt explicitly formulate it that way, because i already know it doesnt make sense to read it as a generalised statement and so i give you the Best possible Interpretation i can think of what it should mean so we can have a discussion, and dont Interpret it in the worst possible way just to pseudp attack the point youre not actually even trying to make
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 11:42:40 am by E.Honda »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2016, 01:21:55 pm »
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Tristan what's your goko username?

There's a popular hypothesis that it's horatio83, although tristan has neither confirmed nor denied this.

ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2016, 08:56:43 pm »
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So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.
I've actually reread the whole thing and I didn't see where someone said this. Must of missed it, can you enlighten me as to where it is?
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tristan

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2016, 02:33:13 am »
0

So here is to you: design a kingdom (no Empires or 2nd edition) containing Peasant and Hireling and we'll play it a few times and see if Discipling Hireling works out for you.
Sure. Once you read the Dominion rules in the meantime and learn that turn and shuffle are not equivalent.

Seriously, I am interested in discussing the intricacies of playing with Travellers. But not with folks who gotta blatantly lie (claiming that Disciple thrones and gains a card each turn) in order to make their point.
I've actually reread the whole thing and I didn't see where someone said this. Must of missed it, can you enlighten me as to where it is?

Non-teacher-dependent engine: Disciple is a better card than Hireling because increasing number of components and having extra pile control is more important than increasing handsize at the start of the turn, not to mention that you get the benefit of Throning a powerful card (of your choosing rather than one that may not be necessary) each turn.
This is simply factually wrong. The mere presence of Pesant does in no way guarantee that you will always draw your entire deck. As always it depends on the Kingdom. Which is all I have been saying here but seemingly it is very controversial and everybody else believes that the value of a card, or a Traveller line, is absolute and not relative to the other cards.

For example in a game with Pesant, junking, no trashing and no non-terminal draw (or either no villages or no terminal drawers) you will definitely not draw your entire deck.
Of course traces is right that you often want more Action cards. In thin decks or decks that already draw themselves Hireling is bad.
But e.g. in a junking intense game with 40 card decks the marginal benefit of an extra Action is relatively small compared to the marginal benefit of a permaduration like Hireling.

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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2016, 07:50:06 am »
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Hmm, in a high junking game I guess I can agree, but they both suck (disciple has toruble colliding, and hireling just draw more junk). Also, you need to reallize the sheer number of Terminal Draw cards. Yes, it's possible that it will be impossible to draw your deck, but it seems way more likely then Hireling is on the board. Also, Teacher can make an engine possible on most boards, so it's even more likely that you can draw your deck.

All in all, I think it's entierly possible that hireling is the only draw, and winning the split is crucial, Disciple (and Teacher) warp the game so much that's it's almost always the wrong move to disciple a hireling. At the very least, this should not be stated as obvious game knowledge
you give up your disciple for another hireling?
For a throned Hireling and another Hireling? Of course.
but as a possible edge case. One reason I can clearly see is in junky decks where Disciple has a hard time colliding, it might be better to just waste it on the hireling. Hireling is a good , but I feel that in the turbo-engine presence of Teacher and Disciple it's really easy to draw your deck, and hireling often just becomes an overpriced lab.
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gamesou

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2016, 01:47:57 pm »
+2

Play a Disciple on a Disciple ; throne two Hirelings.

Then stop this thread.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2016, 02:24:08 pm »
+1

Actually Disciple-Disciple-Hireling might have something to it.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2016, 03:36:26 pm »
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Play a Disciple on a Disciple ; throne two Hirelings.

Then stop this thread.

I mean, you don't gain another Disciple, but you do only lose one forever, I guess.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2016, 04:07:46 pm »
+2

Procession - Disciple - Hireling - Hireling. Throne four Hirelings and gain another three.
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2017, 08:15:12 pm »
+2

interesting
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2017, 12:04:24 am »
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I may be missing something here, but if you want three extra cards at the start of every turn, and you know that when you're planning your line of play before the game, isn't it quicker and simpler to buy and play three Hirelings than mess about with Disciple-Hireling?
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Re: The Peasant-Teacher Line
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2017, 05:18:48 am »
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I may be missing something here, but if you want three extra cards at the start of every turn, and you know that when you're planning your line of play before the game, isn't it quicker and simpler to buy and play three Hirelings than mess about with Disciple-Hireling?

Yes. More importantly, if you want three extra cards at the start of every turn, you also want the Disciple but you want to be using it on something else.

Generally, it's not an amazing idea to listen to tristan.
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